Lyttle.9426 Posted July 8, 2020 Author Share Posted July 8, 2020 > @"TwoGhosts.6790" said: > > @"Lyttle.9426" said: > > > @"TwoGhosts.6790" said: > > > Because we have a good one already. > > > > > > ArcDps limitations: > > > > *some things, in bold, because that makes them super important* > > I'm well aware of the limitations of arcDPS. > I can read, and I visit deltconnected's page on a regular basis to check for updates - which he provides often, btw, and almost always within 24h of a gw2 patch... good luck with that if Anet ever makes and breaks their own version; we'll be waiting with broken kitten forever, as always. > And yes, I agree that one of the most frustrating limitations of arcDPS is the lack of heal monitoring, etc. > That's a shame, but I would much, much rather live with those limitations than suffer the consequences of any trashy, ham-fisted attempt by Anet to monetise an in-house meter... which would probably have even more limitations than arcDPS anyway. > And, apart from the lack of heal monitoring, if everyone who wants to is using the same meter (arc, for example, as they are rn), then it doesn't really matter if everyone's numbers are all equally fudged a bit... it's a useful tool, but mainly its a useful comparative, approximate tool, not an absolute one. It doesn't matter, as long as everyone is comparing the same data. > So, no, it's limitations (notwithstanding the lack of heal monitoring) are not a justification to ask Anet to make an in-house one. > Because I fear we might get what you wish for, and that it would be kitten. I think one thing everyone is overlooking is that if the developer of ArcDps ever decides to stop supporting it, that is the end of it. When I first started playing GW2 about 8 months ago what I found was a list of defunct addons no longer supported by their creators. So it is a very real possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoGhosts.6790 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 > @"Lyttle.9426" said: > > @"TwoGhosts.6790" said: > > > @"Lyttle.9426" said: > > > > @"TwoGhosts.6790" said: > > > > Because we have a good one already. > > > > > > > > > ArcDps limitations: > > > > > > *some things, in bold, because that makes them super important* > > > > I'm well aware of the limitations of arcDPS. > > I can read, and I visit deltconnected's page on a regular basis to check for updates - which he provides often, btw, and almost always within 24h of a gw2 patch... good luck with that if Anet ever makes and breaks their own version; we'll be waiting with broken kitten forever, as always. > > And yes, I agree that one of the most frustrating limitations of arcDPS is the lack of heal monitoring, etc. > > That's a shame, but I would much, much rather live with those limitations than suffer the consequences of any trashy, ham-fisted attempt by Anet to monetise an in-house meter... which would probably have even more limitations than arcDPS anyway. > > And, apart from the lack of heal monitoring, if everyone who wants to is using the same meter (arc, for example, as they are rn), then it doesn't really matter if everyone's numbers are all equally fudged a bit... it's a useful tool, but mainly its a useful comparative, approximate tool, not an absolute one. It doesn't matter, as long as everyone is comparing the same data. > > So, no, it's limitations (notwithstanding the lack of heal monitoring) are not a justification to ask Anet to make an in-house one. > > Because I fear we might get what you wish for, and that it would be kitten. > > I think one thing everyone is overlooking is that if the developer of ArcDps ever decides to stop supporting it, that is the end of it. When I first started playing GW2 about 8 months ago what I found was a list of defunct addons no longer supported by their creators. So it is a very real possibility. > > I think one thing you might be overlooking is that those people who are for now enjoying the benefits of deltaconnected's work are aware of that possibility but, while it lasts, still prefer the risk of it happening over the alternative of Anet's intervention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sorudo.9054 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 a big fat NO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeyspit.3965 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 > @"keenedge.9675" said: > Too divisive. > While I disagree with that position, ANET could easily design the meter to only show your stats. We have test golems, so obviously ANET recognizes that players need to be able to self-benchmark, but why they refuse to allow us to do so outside the Spec Forces training area is a mystery to me...though maybe that's on their To-Do list, right after giving us the ability to copy/paste from the chat box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyttle.9426 Posted July 8, 2020 Author Share Posted July 8, 2020 > @"sorudo.9054" said: > a big fat NO a little skinny WHY NOT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 > @"Lyttle.9426" said: > > @"TwoGhosts.6790" said: > > > @"Lyttle.9426" said: > > > > @"TwoGhosts.6790" said: > > > > Because we have a good one already. > > > > > > > > > ArcDps limitations: > > > > > > *some things, in bold, because that makes them super important* > > > > I'm well aware of the limitations of arcDPS. > > I can read, and I visit deltconnected's page on a regular basis to check for updates - which he provides often, btw, and almost always within 24h of a gw2 patch... good luck with that if Anet ever makes and breaks their own version; we'll be waiting with broken kitten forever, as always. > > And yes, I agree that one of the most frustrating limitations of arcDPS is the lack of heal monitoring, etc. > > That's a shame, but I would much, much rather live with those limitations than suffer the consequences of any trashy, ham-fisted attempt by Anet to monetise an in-house meter... which would probably have even more limitations than arcDPS anyway. > > And, apart from the lack of heal monitoring, if everyone who wants to is using the same meter (arc, for example, as they are rn), then it doesn't really matter if everyone's numbers are all equally fudged a bit... it's a useful tool, but mainly its a useful comparative, approximate tool, not an absolute one. It doesn't matter, as long as everyone is comparing the same data. > > So, no, it's limitations (notwithstanding the lack of heal monitoring) are not a justification to ask Anet to make an in-house one. > > Because I fear we might get what you wish for, and that it would be kitten. > > I think one thing everyone is overlooking is that if the developer of ArcDps ever decides to stop supporting it, that is the end of it. When I first started playing GW2 about 8 months ago what I found was a list of defunct addons no longer supported by their creators. So it is a very real possibility. > > I don't think anyone is overlooking that. It's just that we've been burned before. They made an absolute mess of build templates and then tried to charge insane amounts of money for something that used to work better for free. They're still working on fixing that mess and I doubt anybody is excited to see how they'll screw it up next! So, thanks. But no, thanks! Arcdps works just fine. If I could have built-in functionality similar to what WoW had with Recount and similar mods, I'd love it. But I don't trust them to do that and I'd rather not give up a perfectly working free version for another broken attempt at getting money out of me (which, btw, I am perfectly happy to spend on cosmetic nonsense anyway!). There's also the fact that a lot of players really dislike the idea of damage meters. They have to deal with them anyway, but good luck getting the community behind this idea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Tails.9372" said: > > Also, iirc A-Net once said something like "the top players do ~10 times as much damage as the average casual". Well, how do you think they got these numbers if not for them already using DPS meters to monitor player performance? > > That was marketing talk without any kind of context. As for how they got the numbers, probably they guessed them. It's not hard to say "ten times the damage!", ten is very good number for such comparisons. I seen great weavers do 40k dps fully buffed and i seen bad weavers do 4k so yes its true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuks.8241 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 They could do a simple personal version for free and a Black Lion version with full set of functionalities. Besides if it would be a 1 time purchase thing it is much different to build and eq templates where the price just goes insane if you have more than a few characters and builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry.5713 Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 Why not, as long as they do not pull another build templates fiasco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raknar.4735 Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 WoW and FFXIV don't need an in-house meter, even though they focus heavily on stats. (FFXIV devs are heavily against built in DPS parsers and even ban people if unofficial ones are used to shame other players) I don't think GW2 needs one either. We have Arc, that's enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yggranya.5201 Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 > @"Raknar.4735" said: > WoW and FFXIV don't need an in-house meter, even though they focus heavily on stats. > (FFXIV devs are heavily against built in DPS parsers and even ban people if unofficial ones are used to shame other players) > > I don't think GW2 needs one either. We have Arc, that's enough. And you know what those games have in common with this? That people are begging the developers to give them those meters, because raiders are all the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 > @"Yggranya.5201" said: > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > WoW and FFXIV don't need an in-house meter, even though they focus heavily on stats. > > (FFXIV devs are heavily against built in DPS parsers and even ban people if unofficial ones are used to shame other players) > > > > I don't think GW2 needs one either. We have Arc, that's enough. > > And you know what those games have in common with this? That people are begging the developers to give them those meters, because raiders are all the same. I dont think its the raiders here that are begging for a in house one that only show your own or being able to opt out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyttle.9426 Posted July 9, 2020 Author Share Posted July 9, 2020 This is not a matter of "need" but of want. If you dont want to use it, then dont. Me however, I "need" it because it tells me of my output or lack of, at a glance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoGhosts.6790 Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 > @"Lyttle.9426" said: > This is not a matter of "need" but of want. If you dont want to use it, then dont. Me however, I "need" it because it tells me of my output or lack of, at a glance. I already have that. You can, too. Why do you need Anet to sell you an inferior option? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astyrah.4015 Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 > @"TwoGhosts.6790" said: > > @"Lyttle.9426" said: > > This is not a matter of "need" but of want. If you dont want to use it, then dont. Me however, I "need" it because it tells me of my output or lack of, at a glance. > > I already have that. > You can, too. > Why do you need Anet to sell you an inferior option? i think the reason why the OP and others want a built-in one so whenever there's an update, there's no need to wait for a compatibility update to our addons, it'll just work out of the box... and a built in one has more data it can metre/parse for you since arcdps also has limitations on what it can read off of the game since it's an external library just hooking to the game's process and i guess lastly, just incase deltaconnected/arcdps stops development suddenly (real life/work/family/health/etc.) we'd still have something to use. but the great fear is if Anet botches the job of making a built in one, like what they did with the build templates.... should they ever make one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoGhosts.6790 Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 > @"Astyrah.4015" said: > > @"TwoGhosts.6790" said: > > > @"Lyttle.9426" said: > > > This is not a matter of "need" but of want. If you dont want to use it, then dont. Me however, I "need" it because it tells me of my output or lack of, at a glance. > > > > I already have that. > > You can, too. > > Why do you need Anet to sell you an inferior option? > > i think the reason why the OP and others want a built-in one so whenever there's an update, there's no need to wait for a compatibility update to our addons, it'll just work out of the box... and a built in one has more data it can metre/parse for you since arcdps also has limitations on what it can read off of the game since it's an external library just hooking to the game's process and i guess lastly, just incase deltaconnected/arcdps stops development suddenly (real life/work/family/health/etc.) we'd still have something to use. > > but the great fear is if Anet botches the job of making a built in one, like what they did with the build templates.... should they ever make one. Oh, I know, I commented back and forth earlier with him about the issues you raise. My big problem is the 'I need', or worse 'the community needs' idea he's purporting. I'm a member of the community, and the last thing I need,, as you say, is Anet stuffing up my enjoyment of the game with another fail as bad as their so called templates garbage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Besetment.9187 Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 Yeah I feel I need a dps meter too because it is incredibly hard to tell where your damage is coming from just by eyeballing it. The meter itself isn't very important to me but the data that arcDPS captures is. You can log your runs and then use analysis tools like dps.report and moxie parse the data and find out where you are doing things badly or inefficiently. I think of it as a data driven approach to self improvement rather than one based on guesses or assumptions (which are often wrong). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurrilino.2706 Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 > @"Lyttle.9426" said: > > @"keenedge.9675" said: > > That is in the same category as 'gear inspection'. Too divisive. > > > > Nah. An in house DPS meter can be hard-coded to give out just the account user's DPS/Heals and no one else's. Unlike the 3rd party ones that give out the entire party's DPS output from raw server data. Which will result in "post your output or get kicked from the party" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiyo.3578 Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 > @"Raknar.4735" said: > WoW and FFXIV don't need an in-house meter, even though they focus heavily on stats. > (FFXIV devs are heavily against built in DPS parsers and even ban people if unofficial ones are used to shame other players) > > I don't think GW2 needs one either. We have Arc, that's enough. FF14 raids are literally designed around DPS checks since 2.0 but the devs think it's fair to not add a DPS meter to the game lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raknar.4735 Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 > @"Shiyo.3578" said: > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > WoW and FFXIV don't need an in-house meter, even though they focus heavily on stats. > > (FFXIV devs are heavily against built in DPS parsers and even ban people if unofficial ones are used to shame other players) > > > > I don't think GW2 needs one either. We have Arc, that's enough. > > FF14 raids are literally designed around DPS checks since 2.0 but the devs think it's fair to not add a DPS meter to the game lol. It is fair. After all, it's the FFXIV devs' game. They get to decide what they add to the game. DPS parsers/meters are something they don't officially want in their game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knite.1542 Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 > @"Astyrah.4015" said: > > @"TwoGhosts.6790" said: > > > @"Lyttle.9426" said: > > > This is not a matter of "need" but of want. If you dont want to use it, then dont. Me however, I "need" it because it tells me of my output or lack of, at a glance. > > > > I already have that. > > You can, too. > > Why do you need Anet to sell you an inferior option? > > there's no need to wait for a compatibility update to our addons, it'll just work out of the box... That's a really good joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyttle.9426 Posted July 10, 2020 Author Share Posted July 10, 2020 > @"Kurrilino.2706" said: > > @"Lyttle.9426" said: > > > @"keenedge.9675" said: > > > That is in the same category as 'gear inspection'. Too divisive. > > > > > > > Nah. An in house DPS meter can be hard-coded to give out just the account user's DPS/Heals and no one else's. Unlike the 3rd party ones that give out the entire party's DPS output from raw server data. > > Which will result in "post your output or get kicked from the party" > > Like that doesn't happen now? How many parties have I been kicked from because my DPS wasn't up to their standards? No warning. No explanation. Just BOOM!! You're kicked. It's unavoidable when you PUG with A-holes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyttle.9426 Posted July 10, 2020 Author Share Posted July 10, 2020 > @"TwoGhosts.6790" said: > > @"Astyrah.4015" said: > > > @"TwoGhosts.6790" said: > > > > @"Lyttle.9426" said: > > > > This is not a matter of "need" but of want. If you dont want to use it, then dont. Me however, I "need" it because it tells me of my output or lack of, at a glance. > > > > > > I already have that. > > > You can, too. > > > Why do you need Anet to sell you an inferior option? > > > > i think the reason why the OP and others want a built-in one so whenever there's an update, there's no need to wait for a compatibility update to our addons, it'll just work out of the box... and a built in one has more data it can metre/parse for you since arcdps also has limitations on what it can read off of the game since it's an external library just hooking to the game's process and i guess lastly, just incase deltaconnected/arcdps stops development suddenly (real life/work/family/health/etc.) we'd still have something to use. > > > > but the great fear is if Anet botches the job of making a built in one, like what they did with the build templates.... should they ever make one. > > Oh, I know, I commented back and forth earlier with him about the issues you raise. > > My big problem is the 'I need', or worse 'the community needs' idea he's purporting. I'm a member of the community, and the last thing I need,, as you say, is Anet stuffing up my enjoyment of the game with another fail as bad as their so called templates garbage. Dude, you DONT have to use it. For example, I wasn't even aware there was a Template issue because frankly I dont use that feature much. So why rain on my parade? Just dont use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 > @"knite.1542" said: > > @"Astyrah.4015" said: > > > @"TwoGhosts.6790" said: > > > > @"Lyttle.9426" said: > > > > This is not a matter of "need" but of want. If you dont want to use it, then dont. Me however, I "need" it because it tells me of my output or lack of, at a glance. > > > > > > I already have that. > > > You can, too. > > > Why do you need Anet to sell you an inferior option? > > > > there's no need to wait for a compatibility update to our addons, it'll just work out of the box... > > That's a really good joke. ikr how many times now have people been unable to play the game after a patch due to build loadout or account saved slots? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astyrah.4015 Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 > @"Linken.6345" said: > > @"knite.1542" said: > > > @"Astyrah.4015" said: > > > > @"TwoGhosts.6790" said: > > > > > @"Lyttle.9426" said: > > > > > This is not a matter of "need" but of want. If you dont want to use it, then dont. Me however, I "need" it because it tells me of my output or lack of, at a glance. > > > > > > > > I already have that. > > > > You can, too. > > > > Why do you need Anet to sell you an inferior option? > > > > > > there's no need to wait for a compatibility update to our addons, it'll just work out of the box... > > > > That's a really good joke. > > **ikr how many times now have people been unable to play the game** after a patch due to build loadout or account saved slots? usually when a patch is big enough and changes a lot of the memory addresses,, arcdps would not work but instead show nothing and **your game would still launch** ... you had to wait a few hours at most for arcdps to be updated and would be fine again. the last patch however was an exception and crashed the game and many of it's users did not know what was causing it until they found out from others that it was caused by the addon itself (as evidenced by many threads here in the forums and some threads in reddit at the time) **never in my post did i say you couldn't play the game, whenever an addon was outdated** - in most cases the game would launch, you can play, but the add-on wont work until you updated it. i said "work out of the box" which a built in DPS meter would be if we had one, since it goes with the game natively. (this has nothing to do whether a DPS meter made by anet would be good or not btw just explaining my post) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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