Holosmith: It only does EVERYTHING

[Shiyo.3578]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> https://clips.twitch.tv/PluckyImportantSandstormArsonNoSexy

 

EVERYTHING wrong with holo in a single clip! Amazing find.

 

 

[Chaith.8256]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> You aren't the arbiter of objectivity nor are you a beacon of it. I've never seen you make any contribution to a thread about Scrapper or Holosmith when the two have over performed that ultimately didn't boil down to "We can't change anything that's causing problems. We also need to buff core engineer."

 

 

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> However, Holosmith is pretty far ahead of Core Engineer. It's got way more mobility, sustain, and might stacks - core can get this, but not all together. When it comes to Heat Therapy, this trait is a beast. When staying out of Forge it's healing 195 per second between 3-8 seconds, then 390 per second when venting maximum heat. It's very noticeable sustain compared to core.

>

> The mobility Holo gets from master trait & photon Forge is an amazing escape tool. Between super speed escape and Heat Therapy, you basically slap on noticeable sustain and disengage to Core Engi and call it a day.

>

> Only thing about Holo that should be potentially changed is mobility and sustain, ideally take a portion of that sustain and pump it into kits. Multi-kit builds should be the focus of next Engi re-work for sure.

 

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> The reason why Holo is trending hard & topping DPS meters in PvP *snip*, look around the room - ex; trait combos like: **Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit & Laser's Edge** with any high damage toolbelt skill.

 

 

 

@"mortrialus.3062" These are only comments I've made on Holosmith since the nade build was discovered, and you try to mischaracterize me as someone who says Holosmith can't be touched, and must always remain a master of all spec? Buddy all you have in your arsenal is to grossly exaggerate and mischaracterize facts and opinions. My stance on Holo, which I've already said, which you've mischaracterized as 'vaguely reduce sustain': Might stacks, Holo Leap & traited mobility, and heat therapy sustain = all too high. In another thread I talked about how Laser's Edge and ECSU were too strong, before Nade Barrage got nerfed by 20%, now it seems less of an outlier but I wouldn't say unreasonable if it got further nerfs.

 

I'm not trying to come in and stonewall discussion, it's just blatently outdated or wrong info is easy for me to pick up on because I know the class well. I'm also extremely objective when it comes to talk about balance compared to you, who says things like this in regards to current day Holosmith:

 

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> Even with the loss of any of the three elite toolbelt skills let's look at what Holosmith provides the player;

> * More damage through ... several of the Exceed tootbelt skills. <-- Not currently relevant

> * More active mitigation frames through the use of Utilities such as Photon Wall. <-- Not currently relevant

> * More straight durability and face tank through utilities like Hard Light Arena and Spectrum Shield. <-- Not currently relevant

> *** More CC through ... traits. ** **<-- No Holo traits increase CC. **

 

> That's why, similar to how I proposed Mirage suffer a -300 vitality debuff inherent to the spec, **Holosmith should suffer a -25-33% healing penalty for taking that elite spec.**

 

50% of what you say is accurate, which everyone who plays PvP can see and agree with, 50% is cringe, everyone is a beacon of objectivity compared to a person who's saying these above quoted comments

 

 

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > You and Chaith always seem to want;

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. Core Engineer: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.

> > > > > 2. Holosmith: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.

> > > > > 3. Scrapper: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > After getting called out for grossly exaggerating facts, it seems like you still can't stop. Any trace of objectivity in this thread has bit the dust.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > He isn't wrong, though. That's what nearly every engineer player thinks because of how overpowered the class has been since alpha.

> >

> > He absolutely is wrong, no engineer thinks that, and you think engineer has been "overpowered since alpha"? Did you pay attention in most of that at all? Engineer has been bad more often than it has been good. Were not talking thief or Ele here. Or Rev.

>

> Your only contribution to this thread is "Holo will be fine if we just roll back the megabalance" a change that is literally never ever going to happen and also ignores that Holo's mix of super high damage and and no limiters for it's above and beyond capacity for sustain with zero stat investment has been a problem throughout the entire history of the spec.

>

 

Well, if you ignore the contribution of me pointing out your many, *many* mistakes, as well as pointing out general errors, sure. Because that is the simple truth. The change is *neccessary*. If it never comes, you can just write off the gamemode anyway. Its *dead* if they dont do that. And you are wrong because Holo never had that mix. It either had really high damage, or high sustain. Never both at the same time. What we see right now is high damage and low sustain. But low sustain is meaningless when its enough to be unkillable.

 

> https://clips.twitch.tv/PluckyImportantSandstormArsonNoSexy

>

 

What is this clip supposed to show, again? The fact that a glass cannon can regain about 40-50% using their healing skill if the enemy just outright ignores them completely? Because uh, I dont know how to tell you this, but *all* glass cannons can do that. Thats not "high sustain". Thats "healing skills are good at healing back up". Edit: Hell the hilarious part is, *right* after complaining that the engineer goes from 30% to 80% when using his healing skill, the player himself goes from 45% to 85% while being under fire. While having *more* health than the Engineer.

 

> You've also said Holosmtih sucked at MATs. While it's true it didn't have the omnipresence of Scourge, Firebrand, and Herald during PoF it's still had plenty of MAT wins under it's belt. And unlike you I don't hesitate to point out when variants of mesmer are over performing or just toxic in general to the point of frequently butting heads with other mesmer mains about this stuff.

>

 

I didnt? I said that prior to the patch, Engineer was completely unseen in MATs. Which it was. It was to counter your point that Holo was *totally* problematic pre-patch, which it of course wasnt. And yes, Holo had MAT wins. Of course it did. It was good several times. But *every* PoF spec short of Deadeye and Renegade (and even that one managed, just later), had multiple MAT wins. That doesnt mean its problematic. Unless you want to say anything that is meta is problematic.

 

> Meanwhile you and Chaith have done nothing but stonewall discussion in this thread, aside from you just saying "Undo megabalance" and chaith giving a vague "It could use a sustain trim". So my description, blunt and snarky, I feel is an accurate if flippant description of how you two behave in any thread about when any engineer spec is over performing.

 

Because your suggestions are patently ridiculous, and ignoring the actual problem. What you call "stonewalling" is nothing more than a misnomer for "correcting". Your suggestion is to make Holo unviable. Shiyos suggestion (the only other active participant) is making Holo *unplayable*. With that in mind, do you really think either of those are conductive to discussion? What more is there to say, other than "these ideas are awful and ignoring the actual issue".

 

Your description is a strawman to distract from the fact that you talk from a place of ignorance. You are unaware of even simple concepts such as exceed skills being *awful*, and when called out on that falsehood, you double and triple down. If you want an actually productive discussion, start by learning what Holosmith *actually* does and does not provide. And about why it is Holo is so good right now. Because its as simple as "its a sidenoder with a good knockback, that speeds up +1s a bit". Its not like other sidenoders are much better, now are they?

[MrForz.1953]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > You and Chaith always seem to want;

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. Core Engineer: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.

> > > > > 2. Holosmith: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.

> > > > > 3. Scrapper: Jack of All Trades Master of All Trades. Best build in the game do not touch.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > After getting called out for grossly exaggerating facts, it seems like you still can't stop. Any trace of objectivity in this thread has bit the dust.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > He isn't wrong, though. That's what nearly every engineer player thinks because of how overpowered the class has been since alpha.

> >

> > He absolutely is wrong, no engineer thinks that, and you think engineer has been "overpowered since alpha"? Did you pay attention in most of that at all? Engineer has been bad more often than it has been good. Were not talking thief or Ele here. Or Rev.

>

> Your only contribution to this thread is "Holo will be fine if we just roll back the megabalance" a change that is literally never ever going to happen and also ignores that Holo's mix of super high damage and and no limiters for it's above and beyond capacity for sustain with zero stat investment has been a problem throughout the entire history of the spec.

>

> https://clips.twitch.tv/PluckyImportantSandstormArsonNoSexy

>

> You've also said Holosmtih sucked at MATs. While it's true it didn't have the omnipresence of Scourge, Firebrand, and Herald during PoF it's still had plenty of MAT wins under it's belt. And unlike you I don't hesitate to point out when variants of mesmer are over performing or just toxic in general to the point of frequently butting heads with other mesmer mains about this stuff.

>

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/81789/we-need-emergency-nerfs

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1112123#Comment_1112123

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/470034/#Comment_470034

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1151380/#Comment_1151380

>

> Meanwhile you and Chaith have done nothing but stonewall discussion in this thread, aside from you just saying "Undo megabalance" and chaith giving a vague "It could use a sustain trim". So my description, blunt and snarky, I feel is an accurate if flippant description of how you two behave in any thread about when any engineer spec is over performing.

 

I can't speak for UNOwen but Chaith has pretty much only ever intervened to point out at the culprits inside the Holosmith machine people complain at, such as the multiple damage boosts and sustain the trait line alone has that raise the grenades damage to stupid amounts while regenerating health and cleansing conditions on the go. It's right there, we know it, it needs a shave, perhaps even to be changed completely so that it can be specialized in a direction rather than doing everything (and not risk doing everything poorly.)

 

What more do you want from such a discussion? Self flagellation? "Yes it's overpowered you were right all this time turn them into loot bags in retaliation to the pain and suffering given by these evil holosmiths"?

 

This is getting ridiculous, and clearly out of all of our hands too. No amount of spamming with progressively hyperbolic complaints such as "oVeRpOwErEd SiNcE aLpHa" will change it.

[Chaith.8256]

> @"MrForz.1953" said:

> What more do you want from such a discussion? Self flagellation? "Yes it's overpowered you were right all this time turn them into loot bags in retaliation to the pain and suffering given by these evil holosmiths"?

>

> This is getting ridiculous, and clearly out of all of our hands too. No amount of spamming with progressively hyperbolic complaints such as "oVeRpOwErEd SiNcE aLpHa" will change it.

 

How do I up vote this more than once?

 

 

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > You aren't the arbiter of objectivity nor are you a beacon of it. I've never seen you make any contribution to a thread about Scrapper or Holosmith when the two have over performed that ultimately didn't boil down to "We can't change anything that's causing problems. We also need to buff core engineer."

>

>

> > @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > However, Holosmith is pretty far ahead of Core Engineer. It's got way more mobility, sustain, and might stacks - core can get this, but not all together. When it comes to Heat Therapy, this trait is a beast. When staying out of Forge it's healing 195 per second between 3-8 seconds, then 390 per second when venting maximum heat. It's very noticeable sustain compared to core.

> >

> > The mobility Holo gets from master trait & photon Forge is an amazing escape tool. Between super speed escape and Heat Therapy, you basically slap on noticeable sustain and disengage to Core Engi and call it a day.

> >

> > Only thing about Holo that should be potentially changed is mobility and sustain, ideally take a portion of that sustain and pump it into kits. Multi-kit builds should be the focus of next Engi re-work for sure.

>

> > @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > The reason why Holo is trending hard & topping DPS meters in PvP *snip*, look around the room - ex; trait combos like: **Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit & Laser's Edge** with any high damage toolbelt skill.

>

>

>

> @"mortrialus.3062" These are only comments I've made on Holosmith since the nade build was discovered, and you try to mischaracterize me as someone who says Holosmith can't be touched, and must always remain a master of all spec? Buddy all you have in your arsenal is to grossly exaggerate and mischaracterize facts and opinions. My stance on Holo, which I've already said, which you've mischaracterized as 'vaguely reduce sustain': Might stacks, Holo Leap & traited mobility, and heat therapy sustain = all too high. In another thread I talked about how Laser's Edge and ECSU were too strong, before Nade Barrage got nerfed by 20%, now it seems less of an outlier but I wouldn't say unreasonable if it got further nerfs.

 

Overall we both agree Holosmith's mix of damage mobility and sustain is too high in combination with each other. Where we disagree is what should give, the degrees to which sustain / damage / and mobility should be hit. Hitting holosmith damage hard, while having a slight trim through nerfing or reworking Heath Therapy leaves us in the position that both Engineer elite specs would be low damage high sustain melee fighters. It blurs the distinction between Holosmith and Scrapper and without having more unique niches and rolls, strengths and weaknesses.

 

Unowen's opinion is that Holosmith should be a side node bruiser and scrapper a team fight bruiser. But when they're both so similar in capabilities it becomes an even more binary choice of which is just always better in almost all situations. Reaper, Scourge, and Core Necro have all rotated around each other over which one is meta, and while there's always going to be a meta, regardless of the meta there's reasons for running all of them because they all have very clear defined capabilities in relation to one an other.

 

Overall, I'd rather see Holosmith maintain high power damage and mobility as what should separate it from Scrapper and core. Holosmith on a fundamental philosophical design perspective, be a mobile glass cannon and that mandates making it harder and riskier to play. While scrapper is solidified as a tanky, supportive, spec with less damage and mobility. Clear niches and strengths and weaknesses for both. You're never going to balance classes where core and all elites are perfectly well rounded and all have equal capabilities in every way. If that was the case then there's literally no point aside from flavor for adding new elite specs.

 

> I'm not trying to come in and stonewall discussion, it's just blatently outdated or wrong info is easy for me to pick up on because I know the class well. I'm also extremely objective when it comes to talk about balance compared to you, who says things like this in regards to current day Holosmith:

>

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > Even with the loss of any of the three elite toolbelt skills let's look at what Holosmith provides the player;

> > * More damage through ... several of the Exceed tootbelt skills. <-- Not currently relevant

> > * More active mitigation frames through the use of Utilities such as Photon Wall. <-- Not currently relevant

> > * More straight durability and face tank through utilities like Hard Light Arena and Spectrum Shield. <-- Not currently relevant

> > *** More CC through ... traits. ** **<-- No Holo traits increase CC. **

>

> > That's why, similar to how I proposed Mirage suffer a -300 vitality debuff inherent to the spec, **Holosmith should suffer a -25-33% healing penalty for taking that elite spec.**

>

> 50% of what you say is accurate, which everyone who plays PvP can see and agree with, 50% is cringe, everyone is a beacon of objectivity compared to a person who's saying these above quoted comments

 

There have been plenty of professions that have seen their meta healing skills eat 10-30% nerfs in effectiveness, either through directly nerfing the healing output or adjusting the cooldown and those professions and skills still remain viable, even remaining the meta healing choice. Holosmith could suffer a global -20%-33% healing penalty as a trade off and it would hurt but it could still perform well under that trade off. It reminds me of when Healing Turret was extremely powerful and Holosmiths insisted Holosmith wouldn't be viable if it had to run Elixir H as a healing skill. And here were are, Elixir H is being run on Holosmith and it's pretty much universally considered a top 3 build if not the best build for ranked and ATs.

 

Calling the Exceeds bad is also ridiculous. It's like calling Corrupt Boon and Spectral Armor bad because most necros are running Spectral Walk, Flesh Wurm and Spectral Ring. While the exceed healing skill has never been good, or the buzzsaw, and Prime Light Beam is a victim of Megalabalance the rest of them are usable and have seen tons of play historically, even if the meta currently running something else. We're not talking about utilities that are completely unworkable and have never ever seen play. Also point wasn't that exceeds are currently meta and ruining the game but that they shouldn't be defensively orientated in the first place.

 

That you keep completely missing the very clear point of what I'm talking about regarding exceeds is baffling. It's like someone saying "Mirage detargets are an unhealthy mechanic and the class shouldn't be loaded with this stuff" and me coming in and saying "Yeah but Illusory Ambush isn't run anymore" over and over. It side steps the entire argument; should this skill have this functionality at all? If exceeds get cooldown reductions that makes them more widely run like they were before the megabalance, then we're in a state where Holosmith has access to multiple utility skills that massively boost it's defensive capacity above what core engineer has access to, in addition to what Core Engineer already has access to and can be combo'd with. And that's not what we should want from holosmith.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > You aren't the arbiter of objectivity nor are you a beacon of it. I've never seen you make any contribution to a thread about Scrapper or Holosmith when the two have over performed that ultimately didn't boil down to "We can't change anything that's causing problems. We also need to buff core engineer."

> >

> >

> > > @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > > However, Holosmith is pretty far ahead of Core Engineer. It's got way more mobility, sustain, and might stacks - core can get this, but not all together. When it comes to Heat Therapy, this trait is a beast. When staying out of Forge it's healing 195 per second between 3-8 seconds, then 390 per second when venting maximum heat. It's very noticeable sustain compared to core.

> > >

> > > The mobility Holo gets from master trait & photon Forge is an amazing escape tool. Between super speed escape and Heat Therapy, you basically slap on noticeable sustain and disengage to Core Engi and call it a day.

> > >

> > > Only thing about Holo that should be potentially changed is mobility and sustain, ideally take a portion of that sustain and pump it into kits. Multi-kit builds should be the focus of next Engi re-work for sure.

> >

> > > @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > > The reason why Holo is trending hard & topping DPS meters in PvP *snip*, look around the room - ex; trait combos like: **Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit & Laser's Edge** with any high damage toolbelt skill.

> >

> >

> >

> > @"mortrialus.3062" These are only comments I've made on Holosmith since the nade build was discovered, and you try to mischaracterize me as someone who says Holosmith can't be touched, and must always remain a master of all spec? Buddy all you have in your arsenal is to grossly exaggerate and mischaracterize facts and opinions. My stance on Holo, which I've already said, which you've mischaracterized as 'vaguely reduce sustain': Might stacks, Holo Leap & traited mobility, and heat therapy sustain = all too high. In another thread I talked about how Laser's Edge and ECSU were too strong, before Nade Barrage got nerfed by 20%, now it seems less of an outlier but I wouldn't say unreasonable if it got further nerfs.

>

> Overall we both agree Holosmith's mix of damage mobility and sustain is too high in combination with each other. Where we disagree is what should give, the degrees to which sustain / damage / and mobility should be hit. Hitting holosmith damage hard, while having a slight trim through nerfing or reworking Heath Therapy leaves us in the position that both Engineer elite specs would be low damage high sustain melee fighters. It blurs the distinction between Holosmith and Scrapper and without having more unique niches and rolls, strengths and weaknesses.

>

> Unowen's opinion is that Holosmith should be a side node bruiser and scrapper a team fight bruiser. But when they're both so similar in capabilities it becomes an even more binary choice of which is just always better in almost all situations. Reaper, Scourge, and Core Necro have all rotated around each other over which one is meta, and while there's always going to be a meta, regardless of the meta there's reasons for running all of them because they all have very clear defined capabilities in relation to one an other.

>

 

They arent actually similar in capabilities. Scrapper is focused on disruption, which Holo is rather bad at. Its also more survivable *or* more capable at dealing with multiple people (depending if its damage holo or prot holo).

 

> Overall, I'd rather see Holosmith maintain high power damage and mobility as what should separate it from Scrapper and core. Holosmith on a fundamental philosophical design perspective, be a mobile glass cannon and that mandates making it harder and riskier to play. While scrapper is solidified as a tanky, supportive, spec with less damage and mobility. Clear niches and strengths and weaknesses for both. You're never going to balance classes where core and all elites are perfectly well rounded and all have equal capabilities in every way. If that was the case then there's literally no point aside from flavor for adding new elite specs.

>

 

Then youd have to rework most Exceed skills and a lot of Holo traits if thats what you want. The idea is that Holo can be *either* a bunker *or* a glass cannon. Its capable of splashing into either, at the cost of losing the opposite. The key difference is that as a bunker its good in sidenoding situations, but bad in teamfighting ones as it provides very little to its team, while Scrapper is great at teamfighting due to its potent disruption, and its function gyros are technically potentially useful.

 

> > I'm not trying to come in and stonewall discussion, it's just blatently outdated or wrong info is easy for me to pick up on because I know the class well. I'm also extremely objective when it comes to talk about balance compared to you, who says things like this in regards to current day Holosmith:

> >

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > Even with the loss of any of the three elite toolbelt skills let's look at what Holosmith provides the player;

> > > * More damage through ... several of the Exceed tootbelt skills. <-- Not currently relevant

> > > * More active mitigation frames through the use of Utilities such as Photon Wall. <-- Not currently relevant

> > > * More straight durability and face tank through utilities like Hard Light Arena and Spectrum Shield. <-- Not currently relevant

> > > *** More CC through ... traits. ** **<-- No Holo traits increase CC. **

> >

> > > That's why, similar to how I proposed Mirage suffer a -300 vitality debuff inherent to the spec, **Holosmith should suffer a -25-33% healing penalty for taking that elite spec.**

> >

> > 50% of what you say is accurate, which everyone who plays PvP can see and agree with, 50% is cringe, everyone is a beacon of objectivity compared to a person who's saying these above quoted comments

>

> There have been plenty of professions that have seen their meta healing skills eat 10-30% nerfs in effectiveness, either through directly nerfing the healing output or adjusting the cooldown and those professions and skills still remain viable, even remaining the meta healing choice. Holosmith could suffer a global -20%-33% healing penalty as a trade off and it would hurt but it could still perform well under that trade off. It reminds me of when Healing Turret was extremely powerful and Holosmiths insisted Holosmith wouldn't be viable if it had to run Elixir H as a healing skill. And here were are, Elixir H is being run on Holosmith and it's pretty much universally considered a top 3 build if not the best build for ranked and ATs.

>

 

There is a difference between nerfing the meta heal, and nerfing *all* healing. A *very* big difference. With that penalty it wouldnt perform. It would just be considered a massive downgrade to core and dropped like a hot potato. And you forgot about context. Elixir H wouldve been insufficient pre-patch. But now that damage is non-existent? Yeah Elixir H is good enough.

 

> Calling the Exceeds bad is also ridiculous. It's like calling Corrupt Boon and Spectral Armor bad because most necros are running Spectral Walk, Flesh Wurm and Spectral Ring. While the exceed healing skill has never been good, or the buzzsaw, and Prime Light Beam is a victim of Megalabalance the rest of them are usable and have seen tons of play historically, even if the meta currently running something else. We're not talking about utilities that are completely unworkable and have never ever seen play. Also point wasn't that exceeds are currently meta and ruining the game but that they shouldn't be defensively orientated in the first place.

>

 

And thats what I meant when I said that you triple down when people point out that youre wrong. Exceeds are *bad*. Theyre *not* like Corrupt Boon or Spectral Armor, which, while not meta, are viable options. Think of them as Tempest Shouts. Used to be good. But now? No Ele ever picks them, as they are actively bad. All Exceed skills are bad. Whether its because they were overnerfed, because other things they interacted well with were overnerfed, or any combination thereof. Fact is, theyre bad.

 

> That you keep completely missing the very clear point of what I'm talking about regarding exceeds is baffling. It's like someone saying "Mirage detargets are an unhealthy mechanic and the class shouldn't be loaded with this stuff" and me coming in and saying "Yeah but Illusory Ambush isn't run anymore" over and over. It side steps the entire argument; should this skill have this functionality at all? If exceeds get cooldown reductions that makes them more widely run like they were before the megabalance, then we're in a state where Holosmith has access to multiple utility skills that massively boost it's defensive capacity above what core engineer has access to, in addition to what Core Engineer already has access to and can be combo'd with. And that's not what we should want from holosmith.

 

Why? Holosmith is a melee bruiser. Its entirely unreasonable to expect it to not have defensive tools. Your idea of it being a glass cannon roamer fails as soon as you realise "wait, without a teleport Holo just gets blown up before he can even get in range".

[Chaith.8256]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> That you keep completely missing the very clear point of what I'm talking about regarding exceeds is baffling. ... It side steps the entire argument; should this skill have this functionality at all? If exceeds get cooldown reductions that makes them more widely run like they were before the megabalance, then we're in a state where Holosmith has access to multiple utility skills that massively boost it's defensive capacity above what core engineer has access to, in addition to what Core Engineer already has access to and can be combo'd with. And that's not what we should want from holosmith.

 

No what's really baffling is that you are acting like Exceeds massively boost and stack with core Engineer utilities when you're just going to run Elixir S, Slick Shoes, **since they compete for the same slot.**

 

 

[Kodama.6453]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> That you keep completely missing the very clear point of what I'm talking about regarding exceeds is baffling. It's like someone saying "Mirage detargets are an unhealthy mechanic and the class shouldn't be loaded with this stuff" and me coming in and saying "Yeah but Illusory Ambush isn't run anymore" over and over. It side steps the entire argument; should this skill have this functionality at all? If exceeds get cooldown reductions that makes them more widely run like they were before the megabalance, then we're in a state where Holosmith has access to multiple utility skills that massively boost it's defensive capacity above what core engineer has access to, in addition to what Core Engineer already has access to and can be combo'd with. And that's not what we should want from holosmith.

 

In my opinion, you are missing what a melee glass cannon spec needs to actually be able to perform.

 

One of the prime examples for glass cannons in this game have been thieves historically.

Now look at the tools available for thieves.

 

Thieves actually have alot of active tools to stay alive, too.

Tons of evades, both in utility skills and their weapons. Alot of ways to regain endurance to keep dodging. They can have great sustain from a primarily **offensive** trait line like critical strikes, making them heal for a percentage of critical strike damage they deal. Damage reduction effects either from weakness (also applied by deadly arts, another offensive trait line) or getting 33% damage reduction while you are revealed. Then thief also has stealth and teleports to help them reach their target without eating damage while approaching them.

 

Alot of things holosmith has is also present in thief, even trait lines which are supposed to be offensive for glass cannon builds. They just replace evades with blocks instead.

Why is that?

Because if you want to play a glass cannon in melee range, you need active defenses and sustain to stay alive.

 

If you have no way to defend yourself, no one would play a melee glass cannon. Because you would just immediately blow up before even reaching your target and therefore you are useless. Active defenses and sustain are needed for that archetype to function.

 

 

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > That you keep completely missing the very clear point of what I'm talking about regarding exceeds is baffling. ... It side steps the entire argument; should this skill have this functionality at all? If exceeds get cooldown reductions that makes them more widely run like they were before the megabalance, then we're in a state where Holosmith has access to multiple utility skills that massively boost it's defensive capacity above what core engineer has access to, in addition to what Core Engineer already has access to and can be combo'd with. And that's not what we should want from holosmith.

>

> No what's really baffling is that you are acting like Exceeds massively boost and stack with core Engineer utilities when you're just going to run Elixir S, Slick Shoes, **since they compete for the same slot.**

>

>

 

Or, you know, it'd be like pre-megabalance where rifle ran noth Elixir S and Photon Wall. Or prot holo taking spectrum shield, hard light arena and their choice between thumper turret, photon wall, elixir u, like they were doing before people caught on to how crazy good nades holo was.

 

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > That you keep completely missing the very clear point of what I'm talking about regarding exceeds is baffling. It's like someone saying "Mirage detargets are an unhealthy mechanic and the class shouldn't be loaded with this stuff" and me coming in and saying "Yeah but Illusory Ambush isn't run anymore" over and over. It side steps the entire argument; should this skill have this functionality at all? If exceeds get cooldown reductions that makes them more widely run like they were before the megabalance, then we're in a state where Holosmith has access to multiple utility skills that massively boost it's defensive capacity above what core engineer has access to, in addition to what Core Engineer already has access to and can be combo'd with. And that's not what we should want from holosmith.

>

> In my opinion, you are missing what a melee glass cannon spec needs to actually be able to perform.

>

> One of the prime examples for glass cannons in this game have been thieves historically.

> Now look at the tools available for thieves.

>

> Thieves actually have alot of active tools to stay alive, too.

> Tons of evades, both in utility skills and their weapons. Alot of ways to regain endurance to keep dodging. They can have great sustain from a primarily **offensive** trait line like critical strikes, making them heal for a percentage of critical strike damage they deal. Damage reduction effects either from weakness (also applied by deadly arts, another offensive trait line) or getting 33% damage reduction while you are revealed. Then thief also has stealth and teleports to help them reach their target without eating damage while approaching them.

>

> Alot of things holosmith has is also present in thief, even trait lines which are supposed to be offensive for glass cannon builds. They just replace evades with blocks instead.

> Why is that?

> Because if you want to play a glass cannon in melee range, you need active defenses and sustain to stay alive.

>

> If you have no way to defend yourself, no one would play a melee glass cannon. Because you would just immediately blow up before even reaching your target and therefore you are useless. Active defenses and sustain are needed for that archetype to function.

>

>

 

You'd still have Elixir S, Toss Elixir S, Gear Shield, the cleanse Elixir not to mention more hard CC than probably anything else in the game. Holosmith simply shouldn't be adding more on top of that if the spec is designed to have significantly higher DPS than core.

[Kodama.6453]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

>

> You'd still have Elixir S, Toss Elixir S, Gear Shield, the cleanse Elixir not to mention more hard CC than probably anything else in the game. Holosmith simply shouldn't be adding more on top of that if the spec is designed to have significantly higher DPS than core.

 

You are acting like a holosmith can use all this stuff at the same time. We can't, exceed skills are competing for the same utility slots like the stuff you mentioned (elixir s, elixir c, tool kit).

 

We just get more options added for our active defenses, which is fair since how I explained, active defenses are needed to work as a melee dps class.

 

I can even go on and point at several other melee dps elite specs which also get defense out of their trait lines: reaper, soulbeast, berserker, mirage, weaver.... these specs are damage dealers and get defense out of their elite specs for the very same reason. It's not a coincidence that holosmith has that stuff, it is a design Anet uses on **all** their melee dps specs.

 

[wasss.1208]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > https://clips.twitch.tv/PluckyImportantSandstormArsonNoSexy

>

> EVERYTHING wrong with holo in a single clip! Amazing find.

 

According to Twitch, that clip was made last year.

[Aeolus.3615]

Make overheat increase casting times and CD of every other skill outside Holo utilities :\, the more heat u have the most time u take to cast and skill and its CD.

Making Holo suceptible to interrupts when they are heated, the respective heat % would correspondo to the non holo utilties % on incrasing CD and cast time.

This would make some players having more carefull on the gameplay and make the class more towards player skill on management since its what heat was supose to do.

 

By reworking heat this way no skill needs to be nerfed.

Core skills cant be touched that would kill core enterilly.

[Broady.2358]

Holosmith as a whole I don't think is overly obnoxious. I think the problem lies with Grenade Kit. As numerous people have said above, Holosmith is a melee burst class with some very strong defensive abilities. The Grenade Kit allows the Holosmith to also apply insane DPS pressure from range, which is not okay.

[MementoMortis.4258]

It's amazing that we even need this thread!?!? This isn't one class complaining about another! This is BLATENT, OVERT and GROSSLY BROKEN Class! I've watched Holos destroy another Plat Level Player in less than 2secs and then fend off a counter attack by two other members of that team. That's not balanced.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"MementoMortis.4258" said:

> It's amazing that we even need this thread!?!? This isn't one class complaining about another! This is BLATENT, OVERT and GROSSLY BROKEN Class! I've watched Holos destroy another Plat Level Player in less than 2secs and then fend off a counter attack by two other members of that team. That's not balanced.

If this holo can destroy another plat level player in less than 2s and that player is of equal skill, he can destroy the holo in less than 2s as well. And 2 should never loose against 1 unless they're getting outplayed.

 

Besides that the way you present it is pretty hilarious. You've never seen another class do the exact same thing? You've never seen *every single class* do the exact same thing?

[Highlie.7641]

This was preventable, but you little shit's wanted to get carried by bad design. now you have no competition in the upper tiers, the player base has all but left, and you can finally claim your "skilled"

 

This was obviously going to happen when they released HOT without blocking core trait lines.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > Its odd that you talk about Holosmiths utilities as if theyre incredibly amazing when the current meta holosmith doesnt run a *single* holosmith utility. Theyre worse than core utilities. So already we can cut more than half of your "what Holosmith provides" bullet points. The truth is that people *severely* overestimate Holosmith. Yes, it provides more damage than base Engineer thanks to enhanced heat capacity unit, and yes, you get a free mediocre kit in the form of photon forge. But that is, simply put, not that much.

> >

> > As for your suggestion, lets reword it. "Lets make Holosmith unplayable in PvP". Its only slightly ahead of core engineer, so a nerf this massive, well lets just say it chronos the spec. It also is just poorly thought out. The problem with Holo right now isnt Holo itself. Its that as a result of the catastrophic february 25 patch, damage is far too low. Holosmith is not actually very tanky in a vacuum. But damage is so low even a glass cannon like Holosmith is unkillable, despite actually providing close to no sustain or defense at all (seriously, its got Heat Therapy, which is an average 50-100 healing per second. Thats just ... not much).

>

> I think the truth lies somewhere between your view and the OP's.

>

> You're 100% correct in saying Holosmith utilities are not used at all atm, pure sidegrade/downgrade to core utilites, no idea what OP is talking about there with his 3 bullet points on how good Holo utilities are - OP then goes on to say that Holosmith gains CC through traits, no idea how he justifies talking straight 25% nonsense in his post, I understand how you think he's overestimating Holosmith with some overt hyperbole, cause he is.

>

> However, Holosmith is pretty far ahead of Core Engineer. It's got way more mobility, sustain, and might stacks - core can get this, but not all together. When it comes to Heat Therapy, this trait is a beast. When staying out of Forge it's healing 195 per second between 3-8 seconds, then 390 per second when venting maximum heat. It's very noticeable sustain compared to core.

>

> The mobility Holo gets from master trait & photon Forge is an amazing escape tool. Between super speed escape and Heat Therapy, you basically slap on noticeable sustain and disengage to Core Engi and call it a day.

>

> Only thing about Holo that should be potentially changed is mobility and sustain, ideally take a portion of that sustain and pump it into kits. Multi-kit builds should be the focus of next Engi re-work for sure.

 

I can get behind this just because the build has more mobility and better uptime than reaper (which is probably its closest comparison, and suffers massively from reset-happy builds due to LF being so important), and almost everything not kitted to specifically +1/have lots of disengage pretty much **can't** escape even if they burn everything in the process while trading higher cooldowns. Reaper's PvP/WvW damage is extremely high, but I still think it's the golden standard of elite specs because it's very good at what it's intended to do, comes with a significant tradeoff, and never feels like the person playing it is cheating a lot of game mechanics.

 

It's not as big of a deal in sPvP since most maps have vertical mobility for shadowsteps, but in areas like WvW without the verticality, god forbid you ever lose a trade to a Holo, which isn't difficult due to what HF offers, because it's usually just in your best interest to let it kill you because there's almost no way to get away unless you're playing a very specific build designed to run away. And with its sustain, it's basically going to match resets every single time, anyways, even if you can somehow manage an escape or manage to win all the trades into one.

 

I'd also be inclined to argue the CC on Engi's elite specs as a whole are also a bit out of hand - or rather, the animations the kits have all look kind of too similar to too many other skills (Jump in the air at an odd angle in some fashion) - given how long their hard CC's last, but that's a bit more negotiable if and when the mobility is culled.

[lovemghool.7613]

Stunbreaks are on longer cd, alot of damage and defense was shaved off of builds that can kill holosmith with the mega patch as well as reducing the effectiveness of boon removal/corruption and removal of annulment and Mirage and spellbreaker who used to give holo a hard time are effectively out of the meta game

 

yeah in comparison holosmith line and forge themselves were not butchered as much. sadly they went after Exceed skills more

 

yeah i'd say the feb patch didnt do as much of a good job as u think it did. it only killed build diversity and fluidity of combat (LoL Staff 5)

 

lol balance in an mmo hahaa but yeah holo is a fair and fun game right

[Pati.2438]

The only not Balanced shit from Holosmith is this Traitline skill for sure: [Flashbang](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flashbang)

 

Rework or Nerf this skill so it dont blind enemy with granate explosion after First hit and/or Dodge and all would be fine with Holosmith.

 

P.S. No idea how this nerf would effect core engi or scrapper. Maybe instead of remove the blind from the skill you only need to give it some amount of cooldown.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Pati.2438" said:

> The only not Balanced kitten from Holosmith is this Traitline skill for sure: [Flashbang](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flashbang)

>

> Rework or Nerf this skill so it dont blind enemy with granate explosion after First hit and/or Dodge and all would be fine with Holosmith.

>

> P.S. No idea how this nerf would effect core engi or scrapper. Maybe instead of remove the blind from the skill you only need to give it some amount of cooldown.

 

or make the blind last VERY short duration like 0,5s or 0,75s. that way to blind something important you will actually have to use some brain instead of using dodge every 7s and getting a blind off.

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Pati.2438" said:

> > The only not Balanced kitten from Holosmith is this Traitline skill for sure: [Flashbang](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flashbang)

> >

> > Rework or Nerf this skill so it dont blind enemy with granate explosion after First hit and/or Dodge and all would be fine with Holosmith.

> >

> > P.S. No idea how this nerf would effect core engi or scrapper. Maybe instead of remove the blind from the skill you only need to give it some amount of cooldown.

>

> or make the blind last VERY short duration like 0,5s or 0,75s. that way to blind something important you will actually have to use some brain instead of using dodge every 7s and getting a blind off.

 

How are you supposed to use it reactively? You have to perform a dodge and attack afterwards, so using it reactively is already not so great as long as the enemy doesn't have a ridiculous long cast time.

And with just a 0,5 to 0,75 seconds time window, you must be **really** great at predicting to get use out of that.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"Pati.2438" said:

> > > The only not Balanced kitten from Holosmith is this Traitline skill for sure: [Flashbang](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flashbang)

> > >

> > > Rework or Nerf this skill so it dont blind enemy with granate explosion after First hit and/or Dodge and all would be fine with Holosmith.

> > >

> > > P.S. No idea how this nerf would effect core engi or scrapper. Maybe instead of remove the blind from the skill you only need to give it some amount of cooldown.

> >

> > or make the blind last VERY short duration like 0,5s or 0,75s. that way to blind something important you will actually have to use some brain instead of using dodge every 7s and getting a blind off.

>

> How are you supposed to use it reactively? You have to perform a dodge and attack afterwards, so using it reactively is already not so great as long as the enemy doesn't have a ridiculous long cast time.

> And with just a 0,5 to 0,75 seconds time window, you must be **really** great at predicting to get use out of that.

 

it means that you have to hold on to attacking after dodging if you are pressured, I know right? odd that you wont have to spam 10k dmg skills off cooldown

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > @"Pati.2438" said:

> > > > The only not Balanced kitten from Holosmith is this Traitline skill for sure: [Flashbang](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flashbang)

> > > >

> > > > Rework or Nerf this skill so it dont blind enemy with granate explosion after First hit and/or Dodge and all would be fine with Holosmith.

> > > >

> > > > P.S. No idea how this nerf would effect core engi or scrapper. Maybe instead of remove the blind from the skill you only need to give it some amount of cooldown.

> > >

> > > or make the blind last VERY short duration like 0,5s or 0,75s. that way to blind something important you will actually have to use some brain instead of using dodge every 7s and getting a blind off.

> >

> > How are you supposed to use it reactively? You have to perform a dodge and attack afterwards, so using it reactively is already not so great as long as the enemy doesn't have a ridiculous long cast time.

> > And with just a 0,5 to 0,75 seconds time window, you must be **really** great at predicting to get use out of that.

>

> it means that you have to hold on to attacking after dodging if you are pressured, I know right? odd that you wont have to spam 10k dmg skills off cooldown

 

Or the more likely scenario: instead of letting a 0,5 seconds blind dictate you when you are allowed to attack and when not, people will simply switch over to big boomer.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > > @"Pati.2438" said:

> > > > > The only not Balanced kitten from Holosmith is this Traitline skill for sure: [Flashbang](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flashbang)

> > > > >

> > > > > Rework or Nerf this skill so it dont blind enemy with granate explosion after First hit and/or Dodge and all would be fine with Holosmith.

> > > > >

> > > > > P.S. No idea how this nerf would effect core engi or scrapper. Maybe instead of remove the blind from the skill you only need to give it some amount of cooldown.

> > > >

> > > > or make the blind last VERY short duration like 0,5s or 0,75s. that way to blind something important you will actually have to use some brain instead of using dodge every 7s and getting a blind off.

> > >

> > > How are you supposed to use it reactively? You have to perform a dodge and attack afterwards, so using it reactively is already not so great as long as the enemy doesn't have a ridiculous long cast time.

> > > And with just a 0,5 to 0,75 seconds time window, you must be **really** great at predicting to get use out of that.

> >

> > it means that you have to hold on to attacking after dodging if you are pressured, I know right? odd that you wont have to spam 10k dmg skills off cooldown

>

> Or the more likely scenario: instead of letting a 0,5 seconds blind dictate you when you are allowed to attack and when not, people will simply switch over to big boomer.

 

forgot that holo has 2 broken traits in 1 row so they are safe to nerfing, my bad