Pvp and Conditions.

[jonesy.1470]

This discussion is something i often find myself having with others.

**** Most Conditions have a purpose. ****

 

Bleeding Deals damage every second

Burning Deals damage every second

Confusion. Damage received on skill activation

Poisoned. Deals damage every second; decreases healing effectiveness by 33%

Torment. Deals damage every second. Deals additional damage to moving foes

Blinded. Blinded Next outgoing attack misses

Chilled. Chilled Movement speed decreased by 66%; skill cooldown increased by 66%; stacks duration

Crippled .Movement speed decreased by 50%; stacks duration.

Fear. Involuntary retreat; unable to act; stacks duration.

Immobile. Immobilized Unable to move; stacks duration

Slow. Skills and actions are slower.

Taunt. Involuntarily attack foes.

Weakness. Endurance regeneration decreased by 50%. 50% of hits are Glancing Blows

Vulnerability. Damage and condition damage taken are increased

 

We all know this but. Have a look. Bleed and burning are the same. No other effect. Burn does Crazy damage. but so can bleed. I feel like most of the metaclasses take advantage of burn as how passive its damage can be. The skills themself don't matter what matters is that it burns.

 

Why don't we Rework Burn? Say instead of a strong tick. it maybe doesn't stack in PVP and ignores barrier ? or even Burns Boons off your target?

Then you have Each condition doing something. Maybe even change the way bleed behaves as well and have it use a old guild wars Condi deep wound.

 

Deep Wound

"While suffering from this injury, your maximum Health is reduced by 20%"

 

In the games current state atm I just feel like cond damage is a lot of spam dots that nobody even means to use it's just there on every skill. OR worse case the skill its self isn't even thought of its just the condi you want out of it.

 

Sorry for my ramble. just was thinking.

 

[Dantheman.3589]

> @"jonesy.1470" said:

> This discussion is something i often find myself having with others.

> **** Most Conditions have a purpose. ****

>

> Bleeding Deals damage every second

> Burning Deals damage every second

> Confusion. Damage received on skill activation

> Poisoned. Deals damage every second; decreases healing effectiveness by 33%

> Torment. Deals damage every second. Deals additional damage to moving foes

> Blinded. Blinded Next outgoing attack misses

> Chilled. Chilled Movement speed decreased by 66%; skill cooldown increased by 66%; stacks duration

> Crippled .Movement speed decreased by 50%; stacks duration.

> Fear. Involuntary retreat; unable to act; stacks duration.

> Immobile. Immobilized Unable to move; stacks duration

> Slow. Skills and actions are slower.

> Taunt. Involuntarily attack foes.

> Weakness. Endurance regeneration decreased by 50%. 50% of hits are Glancing Blows

> Vulnerability. Damage and condition damage taken are increased

>

> We all know this but. Have a look. Bleed and burning are the same. No other effect. Burn does Crazy damage. but so can bleed. I feel like most of the metaclasses take advantage of burn as how passive its damage can be. The skills themself don't matter what matters is that it burns.

>

> Why don't we Rework Burn? Say instead of a strong tick. it maybe doesn't stack in PVP and ignores barrier ? or even Burns Boons off your target?

> Then you have Each condition doing something. Maybe even change the way bleed behaves as well and have it use a old guild wars Condi deep wound.

>

> Deep Wound

> "While suffering from this injury, your maximum Health is reduced by 20%"

>

> In the games current state atm I just feel like cond damage is a lot of spam dots that nobody even means to use it's just there on every skill. OR worse case the skill its self isn't even thought of its just the condi you want out of it.

>

> Sorry for my ramble. just was thinking.

>

 

Bleeds usually last awhile I think while burn doesn’t. Basically bleed is long duration damage while burn is high damage short duration

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Condi could use a complete rework but thats not going to happen, at least not for pvp reasons. From what ive heard condis contribute a lot to lag so maybe they will address it when the game starts falling apart.

[AliamRationem.5172]

I play weaver and my main source of condi cleansing is smothering auras. This is great for frequent light cleansing and thus works quite well against classes like fire weaver and burn guardian that rely on burning primarily. However, it can be overwhelmed by classes such as mirage, necro, and some ranger and thief builds that overload you with a ton of conditions very quickly. If I want to do better against those classes, obviously I should take more cleansing, but naturally this would mean giving up something else.

 

I also need to consider the bigger picture here. Do these classes that give me trouble have anything other than condi bombs in common? As it turns out, they do. I'm playing sword weaver. I have very limited range and mobility. All of these builds can easily exploit that. Why does this matter? Because what prevents melee condi builds like crev (post-100% resistance uptime so you can actually kill them with a condi build!) from being a big issue for me is that I can effectively pressure them. My cleansing capability is the same in either case, but if I can pressure I can force them on the defensive and let my frequent cleanses from smothering auras do their work without being overwhelmed.

 

What do you suppose this means for classes that don't have frequent small cleanses, but rely instead on larger cleanses on longer cooldowns? Do you think maybe they struggle with burning more than they do with condi bombs?

 

And then there are the people who like to scream at the sky, playing full glass with no cleanses against condi builds. Sorry, but you have to protect yourself from damage. Relying on extreme aggression can work, but some builds won't be pressured sufficiently that they can't fight back and you will lose the battle of attrition that follows if you don't have cleansing past your opener.

 

I don't know guys. I'm not saying everything is perfect, but it feels like balance enough for me?

[jonesy.1470]

 

> And then there are the people who like to scream at the sky, playing full glass with no cleanses against condi builds. Sorry, but you have to protect yourself from damage. Relying on extreme aggression can work, but some builds won't be pressured sufficiently that they can't fight back and you will lose the battle of attrition that follows if you don't have cleansing past your opener.

>

I agree. but some classes have passive Condi cleanse and others you need to fill your toolbar with them.

So you can only reply on your 1-5 for combos. most of the time it doesn't work.

 

Condi damage is too strong, I think burning being able to stack is the reason personally.

Also, other classes have healed skills handed on short cool down and others don't.

 

 

 

[Avatar.3568]

> @"jonesy.1470" said:

>

> > And then there are the people who like to scream at the sky, playing full glass with no cleanses against condi builds. Sorry, but you have to protect yourself from damage. Relying on extreme aggression can work, but some builds won't be pressured sufficiently that they can't fight back and you will lose the battle of attrition that follows if you don't have cleansing past your opener.

> >

> I agree. but some classes have passive Condi cleanse and others you need to fill your toolbar with them.

> So you can only reply on your 1-5 for combos. most of the time it doesn't work.

>

> Condi damage is too strong, I think burning being able to stack is the reason personally.

> Also, other classes have healed skills handed on short cool down and others don't.

>

>

>

 

If you want, can every class handle condis

[Sigmoid.7082]

People still getting wrecked by burn guard I see.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> People still getting wrecked by burn guard I see.

 

dont tell them about secret cleansing sigil tech

[Ragnar.4257]

Lets see, the meta condi classes:

 

Condi-Rev - Primarily relies on Torment, not Burn

Condi-Thief - Has absolutely zero burns in its kit, relies on Bleed, Poison

Condi-Necro - Primarily relies on Torment, Bleed, Poison

Condi-Ranger/SlB - Primarily relies on Poison, Bleed

Condi-Guard - Primarily relies on burns

Condi-Mirage - Primarily relies on Confusion, Torment

 

And I am being EXTREMELY loose with the term 'meta' here, I'm basically allowing anything I saw more than once in the last season. Of the above, only Rev and Theif could actually be considered properly meta. Condi-zerker, Condi-engi and Condi-weaver I didn't see enough of to include on the list.

 

So out of that list, only one of them is primarily geared towards Burning. And yet you conclude that the 'main' problem with conditions is burns? Okay mate. Whatever you say. And as to your first list, there is a very clear distinction between bleeding and burning, as described by Dantheman.

[jonesy.1470]

> @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> Lets see, the meta condi classes:

>

> Condi-Rev - Primarily relies on Torment, not Burn

> Condi-Thief - Has absolutely zero burns in its kit, relies on Bleed, Poison

> Condi-Necro - Primarily relies on Torment, Bleed, Poison

> Condi-Ranger/SlB - Primarily relies on Poison, Bleed

> Condi-Guard - Primarily relies on burns

> Condi-Mirage - Primarily relies on Confusion, Torment

>

> And I am being EXTREMELY loose with the term 'meta' here, I'm basically allowing anything I saw more than once in the last season. Of the above, only two could actually be considered properly meta. Condi-zerker, Condi-engi and Condi-weaver I didn't see enough of to include on the list.

>

> So out of that list, only one of them is primarily geared towards Burning. And yet you conclude that the 'main' problem with conditions is burns? Okay mate. Whatever you say. And as to your first list, there is a very clear distinction between bleeding and burning, as described by Dantheman

 

Primarily. the keyword there.

They still have burning damage.

also, the topic of the discussion is to try to give burning or bleeding another function but I've also added that i personally think that burn damage is too strong is PVP.

I don't have an issue with the other condi.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"jonesy.1470" said:

> > @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> > Lets see, the meta condi classes:

> >

> > Condi-Rev - Primarily relies on Torment, not Burn

> > Condi-Thief - Has absolutely zero burns in its kit, relies on Bleed, Poison

> > Condi-Necro - Primarily relies on Torment, Bleed, Poison

> > Condi-Ranger/SlB - Primarily relies on Poison, Bleed

> > Condi-Guard - Primarily relies on burns

> > Condi-Mirage - Primarily relies on Confusion, Torment

> >

> > And I am being EXTREMELY loose with the term 'meta' here, I'm basically allowing anything I saw more than once in the last season. Of the above, only two could actually be considered properly meta. Condi-zerker, Condi-engi and Condi-weaver I didn't see enough of to include on the list.

> >

> > So out of that list, only one of them is primarily geared towards Burning. And yet you conclude that the 'main' problem with conditions is burns? Okay mate. Whatever you say. And as to your first list, there is a very clear distinction between bleeding and burning, as described by Dantheman

>

> Primarily. the keyword there.

> They still have burning damage.

> also, the topic of the discussion is to try to give burning or bleeding another function but I've also added that i personally think that burn damage is too strong is PVP.

> I don't have an issue with the other condi.

 

they have different functions, bleeding is long lasting easy to apply condi that does chip damage.

burning is MUCH more rare, but also much more damaging.

Burning is used to kill people, apply as much as you can and cover it.

Bleeding is used as cover condi that also works as chip damage, those are very different despite working similarly

[Vancho.8750]

Maybe burn feels bad cause some classes have become total bricks now after the February patch, but their burn output didn't change much and they are basically bursting harder then power classes but with defensive amulets , and maybe they had a patch that reworked how they apply burns to boost their PVE builds and it came after the big condition rebalance, which kinda circumvented it, but it didnt become noticeable till the TTK got lowered.

So some classes can apply 5 to 9 burns constantly on a short cd and have low Time to be killed.

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @"Vancho.8750" said:

> So some classes can apply 5 to 9 burns constantly on a short cd and have low Time to be killed.

 

Some? There really is only one class that really applies that much burn.

 

Where are my complaints about fire ele, Condi warrior or Condi engi? Again this really is just a complaint about burn guardian. It's disingenuous to say otherwise.

 

[anjo.6143]

I > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"jonesy.1470" said:

> > > @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> > > Lets see, the meta condi classes:

> > >

> > > Condi-Rev - Primarily relies on Torment, not Burn

> > > Condi-Thief - Has absolutely zero burns in its kit, relies on Bleed, Poison

> > > Condi-Necro - Primarily relies on Torment, Bleed, Poison

> > > Condi-Ranger/SlB - Primarily relies on Poison, Bleed

> > > Condi-Guard - Primarily relies on burns

> > > Condi-Mirage - Primarily relies on Confusion, Torment

> > >

> > > And I am being EXTREMELY loose with the term 'meta' here, I'm basically allowing anything I saw more than once in the last season. Of the above, only two could actually be considered properly meta. Condi-zerker, Condi-engi and Condi-weaver I didn't see enough of to include on the list.

> > >

> > > So out of that list, only one of them is primarily geared towards Burning. And yet you conclude that the 'main' problem with conditions is burns? Okay mate. Whatever you say. And as to your first list, there is a very clear distinction between bleeding and burning, as described by Dantheman

> >

> > Primarily. the keyword there.

> > They still have burning damage.

> > also, the topic of the discussion is to try to give burning or bleeding another function but I've also added that i personally think that burn damage is too strong is PVP.

> > I don't have an issue with the other condi.

>

> they have different functions, bleeding is long lasting easy to apply condi that does chip damage.

> burning is MUCH more rare, but also much more damaging.

> Burning is used to kill people, apply as much as you can and cover it.

> Bleeding is used as cover condi that also works as chip damage, those are very different despite working similarly

 

What u mean by "burn is much more rare" ?

[Vancho.8750]

> @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > @"Vancho.8750" said:

> > So some classes can apply 5 to 9 burns constantly on a short cd and have low Time to be killed.

>

> Some? There really is only one class that really applies that much burn.

>

> Where are my complaints about fire ele, Condi warrior or Condi engi? Again this really is just a complaint about burn guardian. It's disingenuous to say otherwise.

>

Sorry for being little facetious, but yes all the points that i wrote about are for guard. The other burn classes have some spacing between applying high stacks of burnand usually don't have constant dps , while guard can keep 3 to 5 stacks consistently and burst for 9 or more without losing on the dps burn stacks.

 

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"anjo.6143" said:

> I > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"jonesy.1470" said:

> > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> > > > Lets see, the meta condi classes:

> > > >

> > > > Condi-Rev - Primarily relies on Torment, not Burn

> > > > Condi-Thief - Has absolutely zero burns in its kit, relies on Bleed, Poison

> > > > Condi-Necro - Primarily relies on Torment, Bleed, Poison

> > > > Condi-Ranger/SlB - Primarily relies on Poison, Bleed

> > > > Condi-Guard - Primarily relies on burns

> > > > Condi-Mirage - Primarily relies on Confusion, Torment

> > > >

> > > > And I am being EXTREMELY loose with the term 'meta' here, I'm basically allowing anything I saw more than once in the last season. Of the above, only two could actually be considered properly meta. Condi-zerker, Condi-engi and Condi-weaver I didn't see enough of to include on the list.

> > > >

> > > > So out of that list, only one of them is primarily geared towards Burning. And yet you conclude that the 'main' problem with conditions is burns? Okay mate. Whatever you say. And as to your first list, there is a very clear distinction between bleeding and burning, as described by Dantheman

> > >

> > > Primarily. the keyword there.

> > > They still have burning damage.

> > > also, the topic of the discussion is to try to give burning or bleeding another function but I've also added that i personally think that burn damage is too strong is PVP.

> > > I don't have an issue with the other condi.

> >

> > they have different functions, bleeding is long lasting easy to apply condi that does chip damage.

> > burning is MUCH more rare, but also much more damaging.

> > Burning is used to kill people, apply as much as you can and cover it.

> > Bleeding is used as cover condi that also works as chip damage, those are very different despite working similarly

>

> What u mean by "burn is much more rare" ?

 

exactly what I said?, the only classes that apply any real burning is ele and burn guard. for any other class it doesnt exist or is supplementary at best.

meanwhile any condi build has bleeding, be it thief, mesmer or necro or ele.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"jonesy.1470" said:

>

> > And then there are the people who like to scream at the sky, playing full glass with no cleanses against condi builds. Sorry, but you have to protect yourself from damage. Relying on extreme aggression can work, but some builds won't be pressured sufficiently that they can't fight back and you will lose the battle of attrition that follows if you don't have cleansing past your opener.

> >

> I agree. but some classes have passive Condi cleanse and others you need to fill your toolbar with them.

> So you can only reply on your 1-5 for combos. most of the time it doesn't work.

>

> Condi damage is too strong, I think burning being able to stack is the reason personally.

> Also, other classes have healed skills handed on short cool down and others don't.

>

>

>

 

So burning is wrecking the meta right now? Oh, wait. No, it isn't. The only class even on the radar that uses burning is guardian. Every other condi class isn't using burning. Am I wrong?

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Vancho.8750" said:

> Maybe burn feels bad cause some classes have become total bricks now after the February patch, but their burn output didn't change much and they are basically bursting harder then power classes but with defensive amulets , and maybe they had a patch that reworked how they apply burns to boost their PVE builds and it came after the big condition rebalance, which kinda circumvented it, but it didnt become noticeable till the TTK got lowered.

> So some classes can apply 5 to 9 burns constantly on a short cd and have low Time to be killed.

 

Which classes? Let's be specific.

 

I'm playing my fire weaver with grieving amulet right now and I still get that nonsense "hurr durr condi tank" from opponents all the time. It's like you guys play with your eyes closed!

[jonesy.1470]

Most People think I'm talking about burn guard.

I'm not talking about it as I play it as well as other classes.

 

What I'm talking about it how burning is too strong. Check every Death log burning will be at the top with very low hits and massive DPS.

and again the topic of the discussion is to try to give burning or bleeding another function.

Not a moan about Anyone classes.

I'm just not big-hitting someone 1 time with maybe 2 stacks of burning and it doing 4k damage. its like having a thief heartseeker attached on to most of your skills.

 

Too passive.

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @"jonesy.1470" said:

> and again the topic of the discussion is to try to give burning or bleeding another function.

They already do, you just left out their differentiating characteristics in your analysis either purposefully or due to ignorance.

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"jonesy.1470" said:

> Most People think I'm talking about burn guard.

> I'm not talking about it as I play it as well as other classes.

>

> What I'm talking about it how burning is too strong. Check every Death log burning will be at the top with very low hits and massive DPS.

> and again the topic of the discussion is to try to give burning or bleeding another function.

> Not a moan about Anyone classes.

> I'm just not big-hitting someone 1 time with maybe 2 stacks of burning and it doing 4k damage. its like having a thief heartseeker attached on to most of your skills.

>

> Too passive.

 

No. Just no. You can't compare burning for 4k total damage to burst damage like heartseeker. Unless you can cleanse heartseeker?

 

Maybe you meant 10 stack burn that ticks for 4k+? No again. How many skills have to land to stack 10 burn? More than 1 heartseeker and you can still cleanse it.

 

Just stop. Burning is the only way condi works without bombing with 8 conditions.

[jonesy.1470]

> @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > @"jonesy.1470" said:

> > and again the topic of the discussion is to try to give burning or bleeding another function.

> They already do, you just left out their differentiating characteristics in your analysis either purposefully or due to ignorance.

>

 

READ WHAT I HAVE SAID.

 

and again the topic of the discussion is to try to give burning or bleeding ANOTHER function.

ANOTHER FUNCTION. not saying they are the same. they are similar.

like what said about boon burning and deep wound. that's another function.

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @"jonesy.1470" said:

> > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > @"jonesy.1470" said:

> > > and again the topic of the discussion is to try to give burning or bleeding another function.

> > They already do, you just left out their differentiating characteristics in your analysis either purposefully or due to ignorance.

> >

>

> READ WHAT I HAVE SAID.

>

> and again the topic of the discussion is to try to give burning or bleeding ANOTHER function.

> ANOTHER FUNCTION. not saying they are the same. they are similar.

> like what said about boon burning and deep wound. that's another function.

 

They. Don't. Need. One.

 

They already have a designed function.

 

The entire premise of your thread is we should give burning another function so we can nerf it to differentiate it from bleeding and other conditions. It is already sufficiently differentiated, again your just not appreciating how.

 

Your post literally reads as let's add something to burning so I can lower the damage to it so it is less lethal and I die less to it.

 

Everything is the same if you're not willing to appreciate how and why they are different.

[jonesy.1470]

 

> No. Just no. You can't compare burning for 4k total damage to burst damage like heartseeker. Unless you can cleanse heartseeker?

>

> Maybe you meant 10 stack burn that ticks for 4k+? No again. How many skills have to land to stack 10 burn? More than 1 heartseeker and you can still cleanse it.

>

> Just stop. Burning is the only way condi works without bombing with 8 conditions.

 

Yes, I can. You do a skill it has damage on it. maybe say it does 1k or 2k dps. then 2 secs later you have also taking 4k burning.

 

I'm not talking about not being able to cleanse. Yes, you can remove the condi tick. but the fact that 1 condition does that much damage from 1 skill. is like a heartseeker.

its like warrior or ranger or thief using a throwing a dagger or axe. it hits for 2k then 2 secs later bam 4k.

 

That's why I don't like it and I have talked about reworking the way burn effects you in other ways like boon strip. MAYBE lets be crazy here you could have burning burn condis off you or something.

i don't know I was looking for a discussion on ways burning could be more interesting. Not a forum tread with salty burn guards defending it.

 

I ALSO PLAY BURN GUARD AGAIN BEFORE ANYONE MOANS.

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @"jonesy.1470" said:

>

> > No. Just no. You can't compare burning for 4k total damage to burst damage like heartseeker. Unless you can cleanse heartseeker?

> >

> > Maybe you meant 10 stack burn that ticks for 4k+? No again. How many skills have to land to stack 10 burn? More than 1 heartseeker and you can still cleanse it.

> >

> > Just stop. Burning is the only way condi works without bombing with 8 conditions.

>

> Yes, I can. You do a skill it has damage on it. maybe say it does 1k or 2k dps. then 2 secs later you have also taking 4k burning.

>

> I'm not talking about not being able to cleanse. Yes, you can remove the condi tick. but the fact that 1 condition does that much damage from 1 skill. is like a heartseeker.

> its like warrior or ranger or thief using a throwing a dagger or axe. it hits for 2k then 2 secs later bam 4k.

 

Not only are there very few single skills that even do that much burning. You actively need to not mitigate them for it to do so. Most of them you need to stand in or on something for upwards of 2s. Of the top of my head there two skills when traited that even come close to this. The other is if you and your palls are all stood in a small space suffering from permeating wrath.

 

Also your main issue is how you are reasoning about the "issue". You're not getting hit for 2k the 4k. You're getting hit for 6k..you're trying to make it sound like the damage suddenly comes from nowhere...when in fact it doesn't.

 

Plus I guess you haven't seen how much damage the actual ability called throw axe can do...

 

Also love the classic you're opposed to my ideas so you clearly main the class and build arguments. I mean the fact you try to call people out as salt burn guard mains just cements the fact you are complaining about issues directly related to that class and build rather than in the general sense. Regardless of if you play the build, like you claim to, or not.

 

There is clearly a coincidence that:

* Condi is op because burning is op when burn guard is strong

* Condi is op because torment is op when condi rev and mesmer are strong

* Condi is op because confusion is op when condi mes is strong

* Condi is op because poison is op when condi ranger and thief are strong

* Condi is op because all condi is huge point covering aoe when scourge is strong

 

You get the picture.