siren reef ? i don't get it why so hard ?

[Svetli.4276]

It is only 78, but wipes so meany pug partys i don't understand why ? i wipe less on 100 cm then on this !

yes yes gid gud, still an we balance it a bit so i an pug it with no 250 kp party ?

gw2 is adirtise as casual game, and in the same time there is this horrible mechanics in 78.

[Cyninja.2954]

There have been discussions about this in the past.

 

The main summary is:

The fractal is not designed well to work within the games framework like target limits and flooding the party with enemies.

 

It's doable and experienced players have no issue, especially if they are able to run strong support comps or switch to carry dps classes like condi fb, which destroys this fractal. That doesn't help newer players, weaker players or players incapable of switching to a carry class.

 

The best here is that at least we no longer get We Bleed Fire on sub T4 or Birds or the best combo yet: Birds with We Bleed Fire. Now that was a PUG killer. Personally I would love for some adjustments (not in the way Aquatic was adjusted please) like reducing the amount of spawning enemies or adding some type of mechanic to that which one could use to prevent spawns or clear them faster.

[Zohane.7208]

> @"Svetli.4276" said:

> It is only 78, but wipes so meany pug partys i don't understand why ? i wipe less on 100 cm then on this !

> yes yes gid gud, still an we balance it a bit so i an pug it with no 250 kp party ?

> gw2 is adirtise as casual game, and in the same time there is this horrible mechanics in 78.

 

Is 78 hard? Yes.

Is 78 so hard you need a 250kp group for it? No.

How do I know? I do 78 with pugs every single time it's daily and I have ZERO kp.

 

The thing is, with this fractal there's basically 2 options:

1) Have a strong team that can pull/reflect/cleave adds while at the same time keeping everyone alive, and managing to move away from the evil mechanics.

2) Kill the adds that pop up once every 10% on the boss. Contrary to (what seems to be) popular belief, the adds aren't infinite spawn, but they only spawn at fixed points. If the group struggles to ignore this mechanic, it's possibly easier to actually do the mechanic - ie kill the adds.

[silent killer.5732]

> @"Svetli.4276" said:

> It is only 78, but wipes so meany pug partys i don't understand why ? i wipe less on 100 cm then on this !

> yes yes gid gud, still an we balance it a bit so i an pug it with no 250 kp party ?

> gw2 is adirtise as casual game, and in the same time there is this horrible mechanics in 78.

 

The answer for this Factal is scourge.

As scourge player I almost never wiped therefore the party im in never failed unless they failed to remain on the ship.

 

 

[Svetli.4276]

5 fail pugs today, 20 wipes at last boss....fun

[KidRoleplay.3615]

What @"Zohane.7208" said. Pretty much kill the adds, or bring a composition good enough to ignore them. If the PUG can't achieve either of these (or don't communicate a common goal), it's a wipe. The boss itself literally cannot kill you.

[Fueki.4753]

too many adds

too many conditions

too much too frequent CC covering too much ground

four bosses with unnecessarily inflated HP pools

 

It's easier to ask what went right with Siren's Reef.

And the answer simply is _nothing._

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

For the most part Cyninja.2954 has already answered the reasons .

 

My answer as someone who has around 500kp + red& blue infusion is it difficulty is an entire tier harder then the ones it is in. From my perspective something is too much in there , you have the air stripes, green cycle , yellow cycle, boss teleport ,mobs who do chill condis and an elite in there.

 

For me and for CM groups that is easy on T4 but you need to see in the context **we farming CMs **

What does that mean ? This means on this we do 2-3x that amount of dmg which usually pug group do on t4 or less. The main point then is our healer doesn't have much trouble to clean the chill away because it doesn't take so long to kill the boss if the boss had twice or 3x times the HP he/she/it ? has now most CM groups would also struggle because their support would not have any more condi clean + the chance doing something wrong with the mechanic increase drastically. Chill is so evil here because it makes doing the mechanic often impossible

 

So you can as developer :

A.) Reduce the number of the trash mobs -> reduce the amount of chill

B.) remove chill from the mobs

D.) remove the air stripes or just one of them

What wouldn't have much impact are the green and yellow cycles.

 

The sad true is for highend players in Gw 2 mechanics are often optional or can be dailed down a lot same goes for some ways which can be skipped . In this case when you try to do this as intended with mechanic and with out support you will struggle a lot even on the lower tier! where support is not available!. (at least in the usually case)

 

Arena.NET simple doesn't want to acknowledge that .

 

[Hannelore.8153]

Just move some of its difficulty into Challenge Mote. Then PUGs are happy, and hardcores are happy, problem solved

 

Btw, I find its mostly the cannon phase that people wipe on, not the bosses. The game has a hard target limit of 2, 3 or 5 enemies on most skills, which is why parties get overwhelmed in the phases that spawn endless enemies.

 

Just "playing good" can't solve the problem that's hardcoded into skill design; you can't cleave them all down.

[LadyKitty.6120]

> @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> Just move some of its difficulty into Challenge Mote. Then PUGs are happy, and hardcores are happy, problem solved

>

> Btw, I find its mostly the cannon phase that people wipe on, not the bosses. The game has a hard target limit of 2, 3 or 5 enemies on most skills, which is why parties get overwhelmed in the phases that spawn endless enemies.

>

> Just "playing good" can't solve the problem that's hardcoded into skill design; you can't cleave them all down.

 

Solution to that all is power scrapper. It has pretty much best cleave, AoE cleanses, CCs and immortality with all those cleaveable mobs.

[Tiilimon.6094]

Just requires the right builds or player skill level, just like swampland wisps are almost impossible for people who wont put some speed and cc immunity into their skill bars or builds.

 

Personally I find Siren Reef quite easy as a purity of purpose support srapper, stacks of free boons all over the place!

 

After a wipe, you should always have a discussion with the party instead of charging right into another one.. The whole fight could be really easy if a couple guys swap in some aoe healing and cleansing even if it drops overall party dps by a few %, every class is a hybrid after all.

[Safandula.8723]

Tbf its fairly easy, just play condi firebrand

[Arcaniaxs.4519]

> @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> Just move some of its difficulty into Challenge Mote. Then PUGs are happy, and hardcores are happy, problem solved

>

> Btw, I find its mostly the cannon phase that people wipe on, not the bosses. The game has a hard target limit of 2, 3 or 5 enemies on most skills, which is why parties get overwhelmed in the phases that spawn endless enemies.

>

> Just "playing good" can't solve the problem that's hardcoded into skill design; you can't cleave them all down.

 

Define good playing.

If u play good then the boss dies easily. The mobs die on cleave and AoE... playing good means u know how to play good so if u wanna be good there u use a good build for that frac which has good AoE/reflect/stab/cleanse/cleave.... aka condi firebrand i guess

Btw with a normal fractal pug group (2dps/hfb/alacren/bs) you shouldnt have much problems with condis and CCs as long as ur hfb drops its light fields (mace2/staff3/axe2) and others can easily blast/leap/whirl finisher on them (banners blast/axe2,5 and every class can easily blast and use finisher on them to be cleansed and reduce condi duration)

And hfb tome2 skill2 and 5->4 combo is a big healing with low cooldown on skill2 which is a great condi cleanse and healing skill

Also entering it removes condis

Also tome 3 skill 3 has a big reflect dome for this fractal and skill4 immunes u from all condis and if u camp the tome u can easily spam it off cooldown and nvr worry about condis while healing with arrow of truth and passive heals and granting aegis

Also skill 5 and auto attack on tome3 is a big amount of stab with long duration

Also one of ur mantras is a ez way of removing condis for the whole encounter

Also u can use elite mantra for acceptable stab uptime.

Ik the frac is hard but T4 pugs usually just focus on boss and die wen mobs are alot on the ship while they should clean mobs every 10% if their dps isnt very good or the dont have alot of condi cleanse and reflect/stab

The fractal can be easily done tbh

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

The main reason people wipe over and over is that they don't want to adapt. They have their build, c/p from a website or not, and they think as it's "optimal" for 99% of situations there is no reason it can't work on this one.

Or they ask the fb / ren to adapt but themselves they don't care. And they repeat ... I've seen it multiple time with my FB.

Honor/virtues : Stab shout + stab ground + wall + renewed focus, everybody looks safe until I can't loop stab or a wall or/and they start running everywhere, diving in water, unable to cleave mobs, cleanse their own conditions ... and i'm alone trying to save 4 lost members in the 4 corners of the maps against 40 mobs, daze, wind ...

Where sometimes I just run wall+stab ground and everything is fine, because the ren also help, the DH also has stab/reflect, the berserker whirld in trashmobs and clean the boat, etc.

 

How hard is it for a DH to take the wall + the stab field + why not renewed focus ? Or even switch to Fb and spam F1 and F3. For Sb, the stab stance + bear stance + stance share ? Holo, the arena + cleave/aoes ? Weaver can switch to tempest too, for warhon / magnetic aura, rebound ...

How hard is it to kill mobs sometimes rather than search for the boss wittingly ignoring mobs and aoes.

 

All classes can have useful utilities for the group : stab, reflect, cleanse, aoe/cleave, boonstrip ... You don't necessarily to change all your build, but do a part of the job with 1-2 skills or traits. You don't care to lose >30% of your personal DPS if everybody survive this encounter.

If you die over and over in t2-t3 of this fractal, because you don't know the mechanics, your group is a bit bad ... okai.

T4, there is no excuse; yes this is a L2P issue, but this is T4 fractals, not your personal stance story. Adapt, collaborate.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

Just take away the troll mechanic that fires you off the side of the ship and it'll be fine.

[Zohane.7208]

> @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said:

> Just take away the troll mechanic that fires you off the side of the ship and it'll be fine.

 

Or, you could just sidestep it. The mechanic is very clearly telegraphed and it's in no way harder to avoid than others. Siren's has a lot of mechanics, but they are clear; red circle - move away, green circle - stay in and keep together, orange bar - sidestep. Sure, it's possible to declare one or more of these a "troll" mechanic but they are clear and precise, and the wind is also clearly demonstrated to you during the earlier two bosses.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

> @"Zohane.7208" said:

> > @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said:

> > Just take away the troll mechanic that fires you off the side of the ship and it'll be fine.

>

> Or, you could just sidestep it. The mechanic is very clearly telegraphed and it's in no way harder to avoid than others. Siren's has a lot of mechanics, but they are clear; red circle - move away, green circle - stay in and keep together, orange bar - sidestep. Sure, it's possible to declare one or more of these a "troll" mechanic but they are clear and precise, and the wind is also clearly demonstrated to you during the earlier two bosses.

 

Same goes for all the other mechanics. Condis? Cleanse them. Damage? Just dodge lol kthx.

 

There is no way you can avoid all the red circles and there is enough CC and movement inhibition to make getting caught by the orange bars very easy. Everything else is fine, but those orange bars are just a troll mechanic and detract from the fun of the game.

[Zohane.7208]

> @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said:

> > @"Zohane.7208" said:

> > > @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said:

> > > Just take away the troll mechanic that fires you off the side of the ship and it'll be fine.

> >

> > Or, you could just sidestep it. The mechanic is very clearly telegraphed and it's in no way harder to avoid than others. Siren's has a lot of mechanics, but they are clear; red circle - move away, green circle - stay in and keep together, orange bar - sidestep. Sure, it's possible to declare one or more of these a "troll" mechanic but they are clear and precise, and the wind is also clearly demonstrated to you during the earlier two bosses.

>

> Same goes for all the other mechanics. Condis? Cleanse them. Damage? Just dodge lol kthx.

>

> There is no way you can avoid all the red circles and there is enough CC and movement inhibition to make getting caught by the orange bars very easy. Everything else is fine, but those orange bars are just a troll mechanic and detract from the fun of the game.

 

Tbh I find the storms easiest to avoid since they are, as far as I can determine, 100% predictable. If anything I dislike the red circles since I have to move away from the team to avoid them.

And yes, there will be quite a few times where you get hit by "stuff". That's what the heals and cleanses (from yourself and your team) are for :)

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

> @"Zohane.7208" said:

> > @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said:

> > > @"Zohane.7208" said:

> > > > @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said:

> > > > Just take away the troll mechanic that fires you off the side of the ship and it'll be fine.

> > >

> > > Or, you could just sidestep it. The mechanic is very clearly telegraphed and it's in no way harder to avoid than others. Siren's has a lot of mechanics, but they are clear; red circle - move away, green circle - stay in and keep together, orange bar - sidestep. Sure, it's possible to declare one or more of these a "troll" mechanic but they are clear and precise, and the wind is also clearly demonstrated to you during the earlier two bosses.

> >

> > Same goes for all the other mechanics. Condis? Cleanse them. Damage? Just dodge lol kthx.

> >

> > There is no way you can avoid all the red circles and there is enough CC and movement inhibition to make getting caught by the orange bars very easy. Everything else is fine, but those orange bars are just a troll mechanic and detract from the fun of the game.

>

> Tbh I find the storms easiest to avoid since they are, as far as I can determine, 100% predictable. If anything I dislike the red circles since I have to move away from the team to avoid them.

> And yes, there will be quite a few times where you get hit by "stuff". That's what the heals and cleanses (from yourself and your team) are for :)

 

A Minstrel HB with a Mace can outheal everything in this fractal, you don't even need to cleanse the condis, just keep healing.

[Wolfb.7025]

I'm a CM player, I do CMs + T4s on a daily basis, 1250+ ESS.

I usually introduce and train guildies to do CMs, and even if we struggle in some mechanics, it ends up being manageable by clarifying how to move through attack, when to use your resources (SAK) and breaking ccbar the boss in the right moment.

 

However when it comes to Siren's Reef its always a huge mess, when I pug with a decent CMs group, everything usually goes smooth except for Arabella, i'm not prideful cocky enough to deny I do struggle with that boss, most of the time we don't wipe there, but damn we have a bad time with the constant slow/freeze ranged spam and all the AoEs you have to worry on top of Arabella stun cone attack.

For a fractal to require specific/carry comps so you clear it as smooth as other fractals talks about how badly designed it is. Its not fun.

[zombyturtle.5980]

> @"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:

> The main reason people wipe over and over is that they don't want to adapt. They have their build, c/p from a website or not, and they think as it's "optimal" for 99% of situations there is no reason it can't work on this one.

> Or they ask the fb / ren to adapt but themselves they don't care. And they repeat ... I've seen it multiple time with my FB.

> Honor/virtues : Stab shout + stab ground + wall + renewed focus, everybody looks safe until I can't loop stab or a wall or/and they start running everywhere, diving in water, unable to cleave mobs, cleanse their own conditions ... and i'm alone trying to save 4 lost members in the 4 corners of the maps against 40 mobs, daze, wind ...

> Where sometimes I just run wall+stab ground and everything is fine, because the ren also help, the DH also has stab/reflect, the berserker whirld in trashmobs and clean the boat, etc.

>

> How hard is it for a DH to take the wall + the stab field + why not renewed focus ? Or even switch to Fb and spam F1 and F3. For Sb, the stab stance + bear stance + stance share ? Holo, the arena + cleave/aoes ? Weaver can switch to tempest too, for warhon / magnetic aura, rebound ...

> How hard is it to kill mobs sometimes rather than search for the boss wittingly ignoring mobs and aoes.

>

> All classes can have useful utilities for the group : stab, reflect, cleanse, aoe/cleave, boonstrip ... You don't necessarily to change all your build, but do a part of the job with 1-2 skills or traits. You don't care to lose >30% of your personal DPS if everybody survive this encounter.

> If you die over and over in t2-t3 of this fractal, because you don't know the mechanics, your group is a bit bad ... okai.

> T4, there is no excuse; yes this is a L2P issue, but this is T4 fractals, not your personal stance story. Adapt, collaborate.

 

I mean...if you are running meta comp the whole reason you take hfb is so your team does not have to adapt and lose their damage. I agree if you are wiping over and over they should swap 1 ultility to help but as long as the dps avoid the orange blow aoe and stand in the greens, firebrand alone can carry the entire rest of the group with no changes needed.

 

This obviously differs for non meta groups however which will lack dps to phase properly. If you are running off meta though, a single scourge will solo carry just as hard as firebrand.

 

Also why are you running so much stab. It doesnt block the wind attack. Reflect would be better surely. Ren can also basically solo carry this frac with perma ventari bubble, unless there are horrible instabs.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

> @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > @"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:

> > The main reason people wipe over and over is that they don't want to adapt. They have their build, c/p from a website or not, and they think as it's "optimal" for 99% of situations there is no reason it can't work on this one.

> > Or they ask the fb / ren to adapt but themselves they don't care. And they repeat ... I've seen it multiple time with my FB.

> > Honor/virtues : Stab shout + stab ground + wall + renewed focus, everybody looks safe until I can't loop stab or a wall or/and they start running everywhere, diving in water, unable to cleave mobs, cleanse their own conditions ... and i'm alone trying to save 4 lost members in the 4 corners of the maps against 40 mobs, daze, wind ...

> > Where sometimes I just run wall+stab ground and everything is fine, because the ren also help, the DH also has stab/reflect, the berserker whirld in trashmobs and clean the boat, etc.

> >

> > How hard is it for a DH to take the wall + the stab field + why not renewed focus ? Or even switch to Fb and spam F1 and F3. For Sb, the stab stance + bear stance + stance share ? Holo, the arena + cleave/aoes ? Weaver can switch to tempest too, for warhon / magnetic aura, rebound ...

> > How hard is it to kill mobs sometimes rather than search for the boss wittingly ignoring mobs and aoes.

> >

> > All classes can have useful utilities for the group : stab, reflect, cleanse, aoe/cleave, boonstrip ... You don't necessarily to change all your build, but do a part of the job with 1-2 skills or traits. You don't care to lose >30% of your personal DPS if everybody survive this encounter.

> > If you die over and over in t2-t3 of this fractal, because you don't know the mechanics, your group is a bit bad ... okai.

> > T4, there is no excuse; yes this is a L2P issue, but this is T4 fractals, not your personal stance story. Adapt, collaborate.

>

> I mean...if you are running meta comp the whole reason you take hfb is so your team does not have to adapt and lose their damage. I agree if you are wiping over and over they should swap 1 ultility to help but as long as the dps avoid the orange blow aoe and stand in the greens, firebrand alone can carry the entire rest of the group with no changes needed.

>

> This obviously differs for non meta groups however which will lack dps to phase properly. If you are running off meta though, a single scourge will solo carry just as hard as firebrand.

>

> Also why are you running so much stab. It doesnt block the wind attack. Reflect would be better surely. Ren can also basically solo carry this frac with perma ventari bubble, unless there are horrible instabs.

 

daze

[borgs.6103]

The support duo of Firebrand and Renegade makes this fractal trivial.

Aside from the usual things the firebrand does, using combo finishers in the Light Fields that they drop clears conditions. Whirl is especially useful. Wall of Reflection is a light field and so is every symbol they cast.

Pain Absorption from Legendary Demon pretty much gives everybody 4 seconds of Resistance per use.

Banish Enchantment removes that pesky Protection boon from Captain Crowe.

 

Regarding the annoying mechanics, the winds that blows you out of the ship can be sidestepped or walked away from. You have enough time to do so before it does. The Daze from the boss is literally a big orange cone in front of her. If you get hit by it, it's most probably your fault.

[DKRathalos.9625]

> @"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:

> The main reason people wipe over and over is that they don't want to adapt. They have their build, c/p from a website or not, and they think as it's "optimal" for 99% of situations there is no reason it can't work on this one.

> Or they ask the fb / ren to adapt but themselves they don't care. And they repeat ... I've seen it multiple time with my FB.

> Honor/virtues : Stab shout + stab ground + wall + renewed focus, everybody looks safe until I can't loop stab or a wall or/and they start running everywhere, diving in water, unable to cleave mobs, cleanse their own conditions ... and i'm alone trying to save 4 lost members in the 4 corners of the maps against 40 mobs, daze, wind ...

> Where sometimes I just run wall+stab ground and everything is fine, because the ren also help, the DH also has stab/reflect, the berserker whirld in trashmobs and clean the boat, etc.

>

> How hard is it for a DH to take the wall + the stab field + why not renewed focus ? Or even switch to Fb and spam F1 and F3. For Sb, the stab stance + bear stance + stance share ? Holo, the arena + cleave/aoes ? Weaver can switch to tempest too, for warhon / magnetic aura, rebound ...

> How hard is it to kill mobs sometimes rather than search for the boss wittingly ignoring mobs and aoes.

>

> All classes can have useful utilities for the group : stab, reflect, cleanse, aoe/cleave, boonstrip ... You don't necessarily to change all your build, but do a part of the job with 1-2 skills or traits. You don't care to lose >30% of your personal DPS if everybody survive this encounter.

> If you die over and over in t2-t3 of this fractal, because you don't know the mechanics, your group is a bit bad ... okai.

> T4, there is no excuse; yes this is a L2P issue, but this is T4 fractals, not your personal stance story. Adapt, collaborate.

 

I agree with you, people rarely adapt to the situation they mostly sticking to the one build which they call meta. I mean I often saw alacren didn't take bubble for siren or taking demon for No Pain No Gain. Siren is not that bad if the Revenant and FB know what they are doing, when Rev on Kalla FB pop the reflect bubble f3, then when the F3 down, Rev should be already in centaur to bubble it, that relieves a lot of pressure.

When I play Alacren I always change my 2nd legend depend on situation aside from Kalla.

[Hannelore.8153]

I wish people would just accept that this Fractal is harder than others rather than arguing endlessly about it. Its not that its "too hard", its that its harder than everything else from its tier and needs to be brought in line.

 

Otherwise its just a drag to do, no one wants to waste all this time & energy on the exact same rewards every other Fractal of the tier gives, its like running CoE instead of CoF when they both only gave similar gold rewards back in the day.

 

I don't get why its hard to understand. Challenging content is good, but not for the same rewards.