NO Downstate should STAY permanently. - [Merged]

[Suraci.1642]

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"Suraci.1642" said:

> > > Yes, you are wasting your most valuable cooldown, Elixir S is your only stunbreak, real zerg would stun lock and pull/immo you to death

> > So to avoid that occuring since the real zerg would inevitably stun me midstomp and gotten the downed up in that time, I should have used... oh I dont know... **elixir s**?

> >

> > *Why didnt I think of that?!*

>

> I think he's talking about after the stomp lol...typically a stomp attempt like that would get that engi killed right after. Also, one stealth on the down is all it would have taken to make that engi to look really silly...then without this one extremely convenient and atypical clip what would you have...

 

Yeah, I think he is pretty much a zergling noob that follows the zerg all day and will fight till his last breath to keep downed state, as you can see in his video, he ran pistol with 1 stunbreak vs a baby zerg that didnt even punish him after the stomp, further arguments with him would yield no result cuz he is obviously not even on the level of an average roamer to know what roamer type players have to deal with, he is in zerg all day, he just doesnt know anything else.

[ledernierrempart.6871]

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

>

> It started out as a 2v2, then it turned into a 3v5, then a 1v8. Keep in mind that the majority of the time, i had allies that were either dead or in downstate, and that i had at least half of the enemy in downstate. Also i never broke combat.

>

 

1v8 is you, alone against 8 players. a downed player is still in the fight as it can , depending on the build and class, deal a very good amount of damage and CC.

 

> 1v8 is the most i've ever done. but i win my 2v1's occasionally, and once in a blue moon 3v1 or more.

>

 

you never did 1v8. but i am sure you did win some outnumbered fights. i did too. but it comes down to luck. because when that happens, my opponents are soo bad (or their build sucks) i don't have to tryhard.

 

>

> Once you learn a lot of stuff like kiting, yes fighting outnumbered becomes a walk in the park.

>

 

have you played since the overall damage got nerfed in WvW, with cc dealing 2 digit damage and breakstun, stab, invulnerability passive having a 300s cd,?

because that changed everything. i am speaking about the current state oif the game. not years in the past where you could downed a group of 5 players alone with unbelievable damage. things changed.

 

> And how is this relevant at all? My guy i've played in almost every single scenario you can think of...I've fought and played with players who are 100x better than me, and everyone else in this game...you think it's not possible to win outnumbered fights unless you have some broken mechanic? These guys would laugh at this statement because they know that fighting 1vX is a skill that takes mastering downstate manipulation and a variety of other factors... not just "OP GEAR" lol.

>

 

in the past some builds were so OP you could even tank 15 players alone for a long amount of time. or even instant 5 players with one grenade barrage.

 

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

we won a 3v15 before at air keep lord, but since the cooldown and dps nerfs that isn't possible anymore... outnumbered fighting only works with good stealth pushing groups now.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Suraci.1642" said:

> > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > @"Suraci.1642" said:

> > > > Yes, you are wasting your most valuable cooldown, Elixir S is your only stunbreak, real zerg would stun lock and pull/immo you to death

> > > So to avoid that occuring since the real zerg would inevitably stun me midstomp and gotten the downed up in that time, I should have used... oh I dont know... **elixir s**?

> > >

> > > *Why didnt I think of that?!*

> >

> > I think he's talking about after the stomp lol...typically a stomp attempt like that would get that engi killed right after. Also, one stealth on the down is all it would have taken to make that engi to look really silly...then without this one extremely convenient and atypical clip what would you have...

>

> Yeah, I think he is pretty much a zergling noob that follows the zerg all day and will fight till his last breath to keep downed state, as you can see in his video, he ran pistol with 1 stunbreak vs a baby zerg that didnt even punish him after the stomp, further arguments with him would yield no result cuz he is obviously not even on the level of an average roamer to know what roamer type players have to deal with, he is in zerg all day, he just doesnt know anything else.

Projection much? Yes, *of course* I am a die hard zerger on my condi p/p core engie that I main 99% of the time in WvW because that's the best zerg meta class, everybody knows that. It's even **better** than core ranger, every time I join 50 man ranger meta zergs it's like *"what the hell is that class it's so much better!?!?!!"*. Even people on this forum knows I only post zerg videos, the one above just happen to be the *best*.

 

It's funny, in a thread about downstate when I pointed out that everyone in favor of deleting downed state see themselves as the best players ever and everyone in favor of keeping it as noobs, I was infracted by for stating the obvious.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

All I'm saying is I know how to confirm my kills either way, but the only person who bothered [to poll it to the community without show your vote shame](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/112694/next-balance-patch-skills-vs-state-of-downstate) showed pretty much 3::1 that we really think BALANCE is the bigger issue in WvW, not downstate.

 

 

[ledernierrempart.6871]

> @"kamikharzeeh.8016" said:

> we won a 3v15 before at air keep lord, but since the cooldown and dps nerfs that isn't possible anymore... outnumbered fighting only works with good stealth pushing groups now.

 

i don't think the overall damage reduction is a bad thing.. but only if it comes with other balancing. the way it got served to us felt like just an overall nerf about everything and deal with it. that is why no downstate felt so good this year compared to last time this event came out.

 

but i do feel like this big nerf somehow made fighting a little bit more interesting. especially in 1v1 or small group fights. but definitively not for outnumbered fights. that's why downstate need to be changed or removed.

 

(PS: all the frustrating thing i have listed can be fixed while keeping downstate. getting rid of downstate is just the most simpliest and radical solution.)

[ASP.8093]

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

>

 

In fairness, if this were filmed on no-downstate week, all those downs could just ran back to the fight from their spawn in like 20 seconds anyway. (Which is part of why that's a desirable trolling location in the first place.)

[Jeran.6850]

> @"Widmo.3186" said:

> I agree, no downstate separated the skilled players from the bad. The amount of ressbots and rallybots is just hillarious, especially with current bunker meta after february patch. When in normal state 1v3 or 1v5 is doable, no downed state makes 1v10 possible (...)

 

 

There shouldnt be any class, no matter the build or individual "skill", that can win 1v5 while the downstate is in the game. For sure, when these builds win 1v10 without the downstate, it shows its NOT the downstate, but these builds, that are a problem.

 

Its such a twisted mindset, i do not know how to even guess whats going on in these peoples minds, and if there is any logic behind.

 

I am tempted to make a "Hitler-argument" about that kind of mindset, but will not, because... you know.. of course you people want "IT" to be removed just for a better world. Your intent is completely pure and immaculate, not selfish and blindsided, or arrogant (to say the least) at all.

 

I am german, but i have jewish ancestors btw... a bad argument is still just a bad argument, no matter the "scale", just have to say it.

 

You want the downstate removed, because without it, on the class/build you play, you can win1v10? Thats your argument?

Oh, yes. I forgot. You just have "skill". Its not what you play, not at all.

 

There is even that guy/girl not shying away from wanting the downstate to be removed, because he/she wants the ability to pick out ANY target out of a 50+ squad, and HAVE it to die no matter what, because he/she just wants that superpower so badly... while of course playing something that doesnt have to contribute anything to their build aside of their personal admires (most likely, there is stealth and/or superior range involved) - in opposition to "zerg"-builds, that all dedicate to group interactions

(aside of staff weaver, sadly).

 

 

I really wonder how you people are not ashamed of yourselfs, for asking Arenanet to make cheese-play the most effectiv in wvw overall -while it already is in roaming.

 

 

 

[KrHome.1920]

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

> > @"ledernierrempart.6871" said:

> > for example?

>

> Two Examples:

>

> First Example

> My most memorable fight i've ever had was a 1v8 on one of the alpine borderlands. At first the engagement began with an ally struggling against 2 other players, and he was in downstate. First what happened is that they both tried to stomp/cleave out this downstate ally of mine, and because they were both on his position, i expolited this oppurtunity to cleave them, and at the same time, rezzing my ally little by little. First enemy goes into downstate, the other enemy pulling back a bit. I cleave out the downstate, while rezzing my friend little by little. I kill him and my ally get's the rally. We are now both going after the other player, which happened to be some kind of condi bunker. The fight was now getting bigger, as another couple enemies showed up from spawn, and we had another ally. it was now a 5v3, and my other allies get downed out. But because of these downstates happening, i kept exploiting that oppurtunity to get big damage on the enemies who were cleaving out the downs. After my allies got axed to take the walk of shame back to our spawn on the other side of the map, i had created 3 downstates, and attempting to play some mind games with the other two players to get them to rez their allies. They took the bait of course and i ended up one by one taking them out. 3 more players show up, and in a constant cycle of playing chicken with their downstate allies, i was able to kill them all.

>

> This 1v8 was back when i was solo roaming on Reaper back before it was cool...back then damage was powercreep city, and a lot, so it was essentially not-viable at the time to run around as a lonely reaper because getting one shot was common. But i had tweaked my build to make sure i was ready for every single scenario so that even in the event where i might have gotten in trouble i could disengage. (Back then i ran Become the Snow Leopard)

>

> Second example

> So my 1v8 was on a Reaper, and was a testament to my audacity to solo roam on a spec that was not viable to see how good of a player i was. Before playing Reaper, i was a P/P Dash thief main, and pretty well-known as the one of the few that played the build back WAY before Deadeye came out.

>

> Now on P/P Dash, The ability to cleave out a player is almost non-existent. I found that the most pertinent issue i had was taking out players who i put into downstate. and then had to solve this issue, and i did so by capitalizing on my stomps rather than my cleaves. So what i did was used Impact Strike on my build to secure downstate stomps half of the time, and the other half i would use a Teleport stomp (Shadowstep Stomping) to secure them the other half of the time.

>

> What i would do on P/P dash sometimes, would be to keep a player bleeding if i win a 1v1 or something...and when their ally comes along, i usually get to free-cast my pistols on em' while they attempt a rez, and then with a steal into Impact Strike, i could take out the enemy in downstate (to end the bait) and put the other one into downstate, and finish off the fight, or bait again another unsuspecting player.

>

> This is just some of the ways I've exploited the existence of downstate in many many ways, and you can do this on pretty much any class.

So you fought some noobs. Great. But unfortunately offtopic. A skilled enemy that joins your 1v1 (so it ends up being a 1v2 for you) will just destroy you as he knows you have burned some cooldowns in the ongoing fight. If another player joins the fight and starts to rez and eats your cleave until he is downed too, you know you are facing a noob.

 

What I do when entering such a situation is hover the mouse cursor for half a second over the downed player to check his health bar. If it is above 50% I start to attack the enemy because I have plenty of time for the kill before the downed player dies. If it is below 50% I start to rez and wait for the enemy to try to burst me, then do a dodge and counterattack.

 

Long story short: downed state is a carry mechanic. It does in no way benefit the outnumbered group (or player) when it comes to the same skill level.

 

Btw.: shadowstep stomp thieves I like the most. I have plenty of video footage interrupting their stomp exactly in that blink of an eye they port back with either terrify or even better executioner scythe or chilled to the bone (as this requires a perfect precast). Locking that teef mid air right before the stomp would have happened makes me feel pro every time.

[Shroud.2307]

The way I see it is this,

 

It doesn't matter if downed state "carries" bad players, and it doesn't matter if benefits a group with greater numbers. Downed state adds another layer to combat that provides strategic options. Removing it simplifies combat and becomes overly rewarding to put all your eggs in one basket.

 

It does not necessarily benefit the more "skilled" player(s) in an outnumbered fight because if the outnumbered players are truly intelligent they will be able to recover their allies from downed state with co-ordination that the larger group will not have. In this scenario the larger group would need to be less skilled, if we're assuming the larger group is equal to the smaller group then it wouldn't matter whether downed state existed or not, they would win regardless due to numbers. This means we're always assuming the outnumbered players are the better ones in which case they should be capable of using downed state to their advantage. If they cannot, then maybe the difference in skill isn't as great as they think.

 

Downed state also prevents certain builds from becoming dominant through low risk/high reward combat. Eg. full zerk Soulbeasts, Deadeyes, Mesmers, etc. that can blast through multiple health bars before even being in a position where they're vulnerable. With downed state present builds like this are not viable because they won't have the defenses to secure stomps or punish the player(s) reviving.

100 - 0ing people or spiking, dropping combat, and repeating is not skillful game play and is as one dimensional as a FPS like Call of Duty (as @"Dawdler.8521" accurately stated). The outnumbered player isn't doing anything that deserves to be rewarded, yet some people think it is they that are the victims to the mechanic of downed state and it's removal will validate their ability to be a different spectrum of brainless.

 

Downed state is not a perfectly designed mechanic and I'm sure many would agree that things could be changed to normalize it, and at minimum, make it a better middle ground. But removing it is in no way as great as some people are saying and does not always reward the "better" players. I can think of _lots_ of players that are complete garbage but manage to get lots of kills by never leaving their comfort zone, yet chest thump about "fights" despite having never truly engaged anyone in their lives or used any actual strategic thinking. Without downed state players like this would just be further inclined to embrace that toxic mind set.

 

A bit about myself:

Eating the tail of zergs is my favorite past time. I'm a very mediocre player but I'm very comfortable with my limits and know my class inside and out. I can dip in and out of zergs quite easily as a Necro and down and often kill people without ever getting caught. It's great fun, but I don't think I've ever thought of it as being skilled. I'm playing entirely on instinct and reflex and I'm not actually "fighting" anyone, just killing. Without downed state I'd be able to do this even more easily to the point I could probably shred half a zerg on my own with enough time. And should I be praised as a great player for that? Definitely not... Neither should the Thief that constantly breaks combat in a 1 v 3 repeatedly downing but never killing anyone. It's easy and it's brainless. At least with downed state I risk getting killed if I commit to trying to finish someone, the downed player has a chance to survive, and I have a chance to get more downs if I'm smart. It doesn't only benefit one side unless you're too thick to see that || **combat is more than killing.** ||

[ledernierrempart.6871]

> @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

>At least with downed state I risk getting killed if I commit to trying to finish someone, the downed player has a chance to survive, and I have a chance to get more downs if I'm smart. It doesn't only benefit one side unless you're too thick to see that combat is more than killing.

 

that is the part that bugs me. so the player you are killing have a map awarness as strong as a mussel as they don't even retaliate against a lone necro eating their tail. and thanks to downstate some enemy with slightly more awarness than the rest of the zombies suddenly see that one of their mates got downed and turn around to see what is going on, leaving a window for you to get punished while you are stomping the downed.

XD

[KrHome.1920]

> @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> It does not necessarily benefit the more "skilled" player(s) in an outnumbered fight because if the outnumbered players are truly intelligent they will be able to recover their allies from downed state with co-ordination that the larger group will not have. In this scenario the larger group would need to be less skilled, if we're assuming the larger group is equal to the smaller group then it wouldn't matter whether downed state existed or not, they would win regardless due to numbers. This means we're always assuming the outnumbered players are the better ones in which case they should be capable of using downed state to their advantage. If they cannot, then maybe the difference in skill isn't as great as they think.

A mechanic that adds a layer of fail denial does always benefit the larger group because it buys them time. The smaller group can only win by quickness. If a mechanic denies fast kills then the chances for the larger group to overwhelm the smaller group increase.

 

> Downed state also prevents certain builds from becoming dominant through low risk/high reward combat. Eg. full zerk Soulbeasts, Deadeyes, Mesmers, etc. that can blast through multiple health bars before even being in a position where they're vulnerable. With downed state present builds like this are not viable because they won't have the defenses to secure stomps or punish the player(s) reviving.

The game is full of mechanics to avoid oneshots. Yesterday I duelled several deadeyes and shatter mesmers. I did not lose one single fight - just know their mechanic and counterburst and you win. The dangerous fights are the attrition battles against players that know their class. Most broken builds these days are builds you can not kill but that can stay sticky to you and kill you eventually. There is a super broken boonbeast build in wvw, which is played by only a handful of players in EU. I expect that to become more common in the future. It is unkillable 1v1 (even a 2v1 takes ages) and wins every single attrition fight. This build is the king of every no downstate event.

 

> 100 - 0ing people or spiking, dropping combat, and repeating is not skillful game play and is as one dimensional as a FPS like Call of Duty (as @"Dawdler.8521" accurately stated). The outnumbered player isn't doing anything that deserves to be rewarded, yet some people think it is they that are the victims to the mechanic of downed state and it's removal will validate their ability to be a different spectrum of brainless.

Oneshots happen at lower skill levels. Since feb25 there is no excuse anymore when you die in 3 or even less seconds. Every class has the tools to avoid burst spikes.

[Justine.6351]

There isn't just one side to this, I hope we can all appreciate that to some extent.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

> @"ledernierrempart.6871" said:

> ■ necro DPS when downed.

Break line of sight.

 

> ■ group of thieves reviving their downed all stealthed.

AoE revealed

 

> ■ instant revive several time in a row.

Downed penalty is disabled in PvP, but not in WvW.

 

> ■ rally bot.

Some players bandwagon to worlds they expect will win more often and blame everyone for their own shortcomings, other players engage with their other teammates in their world and try to get them to be better at the game by giving them advice and guiding them.

Guess which ones have the true WvW skill.

 

> ■ downed (ranger) underwater.

That REALLY needs to get fixed. Underwater, the pet often keeps reviving even when it has been sunk or floated away, or even killed. That's a bug. It has been reported, and it should have been fixed ages ago.

 

> ■ being jumping on and sieged on while getting downed and being forced to watch it all.

Don't get killed. It's unsportsmanlike conducit, and immature, but it's not something that can harm anything but a fragile ego.

 

If there was some sort of mechanic preventing dropping siege on corpses, people would suicide to prevent dropping siege. And if dropped siege was invisible to enemies until built, then how do you suppress siege building?

 

At most they could make it so enemy siege appears translucent, ghostly.

The opposite would also be nice for gates, replacing the narrow teleporting squares. Enemies would see an opaque door, allies would see a ghostly door and they would be able to walk through it without it opening, and be able to charge right through it.

 

> ■ (elem) revive ability doesn't show any effect on the ground (except ranger since it is the pet or engi since it is the gyro or grenade). you don't know who is going to be revived.

GW1 resurrect skills often showed something like a pillar or light or wings over a character being revived, and they also had way longer activation times up to 6 seconds. In GW2 the fights are way to fast to have such slow revive skills. and that'll be just more extra skill visual clutter. We need less visual clutter, not more.

 

> ■ sudden +1 that deny your stomp on someone you downed, at the last moment from nowhere.

Bring your own +1. There's a WvW LFG. Nobody uses it because nobody uses it. Start using it, convince people to use them, and others may also start using it.

 

> ■ special bunker revive build guard.

There's several tools to combat sustain, such as poison, unblockable, boon removal, CC...

 

> ■ downed getting revived faster than you can stomp him.

Get a warrior to use [stomp ](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stomp)before stomping, or a guardian to use a ward, or some other skill to launch them away from their allies. Also bring ranged downed skills if your party has them. You can also supress revives with heavy AoEs and arrow carts.

 

Most professions have incomplete core skills sets, those gaps could be filled with more ranged finishers.

 

 

[scerevisiae.1972]

in 20+ years of gaming, downed state is the dumbest game mechanic of any game i've ever played, i wish it could be removed entirely and HP rebalanced with ~20% extra HP across the board to compensate.

 

having to play a mini-game with 4 entirely new unchangeable and unfun skills before you can rejoin the fight or respawn is the dumbest thing ever conceived and i sincerely hope the dev/designer who thought of it permanently leaves the industry so they can't screw up any other game.

 

yeah i really hate it that much. IMHO downed state is the #1 reason why sPVP failed hard & it continues to ruin & suck the fun out of WVW too.

[scerevisiae.1972]

just get rid of downstate in WVW and PVP completely.

 

it sucks, has always sucked, will always suck. it was a stupid idea quite frankly from the start to add a pseudo mini-game with completely different, unchangeable and mostly pointless skills that have nothing to do with your regular skills after you die.

 

just give everyone 20% extra base HP and get rid of it.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

many comments here are still unnecessary crying. in heavy outnumbers it saves you the battle. we defended fire keep today for like 40min against smaller groups, without downstate that would be more risky, but going the same way after all. i rallied four times there, but had downed several people, which would been dead and not spamming any dps/cc otherwise and would not force me to dps their spot so others don't instares them.

 

no matter what, the better players win. downstate has absolutely nothing to do with skill or no skill... if you don't cleave downed, it's not the fault of the game nor the fault of the broken downstate skills of your opponent usually

 

when i read stuff like "mimimi someone jumped over me / threw siege on me when i deded and wanting to watch the environment", i get my own idea of what your problem really is..

 

what i agree with, yeah: ranger and thief need bbad hits, the stealth shenanigans are unacceptable in wvw, unlikely that anything happens about this tho.

 

one of the worst ideas i read lately tho is "give more classes range finishers"... its yet absurd enough to give that to thief.

[diomache.9246]

No, you. Only you.

[Yuffi.2430]

Just enable "/gg" like in raids and fractals. The code should already be in the system.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"scerevisiae.1972" said:

> in 20+ years of gaming, downed state is the dumbest game mechanic of any game i've ever played, i wish it could be removed entirely and HP rebalanced with ~20% extra HP across the board to compensate.

>

> having to play a mini-game with 4 entirely new unchangeable and unfun skills before you can rejoin the fight or respawn is the dumbest thing ever conceived and i sincerely hope the dev/designer who thought of it permanently leaves the industry so they can't screw up any other game.

>

> yeah i really hate it that much. IMHO downed state is the #1 reason why sPVP failed hard & it continues to ruin & suck the fun out of WVW too.

Yet you are the tiny minority, because not only has game developers *embraced* downed state across the board, they double down on it in pretty much every new game. And the gaming community at large clearly love it or they wouldnt buy the games because of them having the "dumbest game mechanic".

 

It's on about the same level of complaining that HP bars showing your health exist. I mean they really shouldnt, it's just a crutch. The mystery of not knowing when you die should be more exciting, yes?

[ASP.8093]

[uber-Skillz Player Voice] "Getting back out on the map faster" is a crutch that carries bad players who die a lot.

[TheGrimm.5624]

> @"Justine.6351" said:

> There isn't just one side to this, I hope we can all appreciate that to some extent.

 

100% agree. Let's spin it around.

 

Happy Tuesday to you! Is work over yet, can we game now?

[Tayga.3192]

Oh no downstate? Let me get my oneshot permastealth deadeye, go in, kill 1 person and run away.

No downstate? Let me get my 1800-1900 range longbow ranger.

No downstate? Let me get my oneshot mantra mesmer.

 

Such skilled builds.

[ASP.8093]

> @"Tayga.3192" said:

> Oh no downstate? Let me get my oneshot permastealth deadeye, go in, kill 1 person and run away.

> No downstate? Let me get my 1800-1900 range longbow ranger.

> No downstate? Let me get my oneshot mantra mesmer.

>

> Such skilled builds.

 

In fairness, full-Minstrels Firebrands who pop 5-4-3 on top of a down and then rub them aren't really "skilled builds" either.

 

Neither are the condi bunkers or other attrition-monkeys.

 

Nor the Dragonhunters who spam out all their traps in order to create a single down out of position and then finish them with residual damage.

 

It's quite possible there are no "skilled builds" in this game at all, with or without the down state.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

> @"ASP.8093" said:

> > @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > Oh no downstate? Let me get my oneshot permastealth deadeye, go in, kill 1 person and run away.

> > No downstate? Let me get my 1800-1900 range longbow ranger.

> > No downstate? Let me get my oneshot mantra mesmer.

> >

> > Such skilled builds.

>

> In fairness, full-Minstrels Firebrands who pop 5-4-3 on top of a down and then rub them aren't really "skilled builds" either.

>

> Neither are the condi bunkers or other attrition-monkeys.

>

> Nor the Dragonhunters who spam out all their traps in order to create a single down out of position and then finish them with residual damage.

>

> It's quite possible there are no "skilled builds" in this game at all, with or without the down state.

 

In WvW there is not. It's all a pure numbers game. It's a prettier version of Risk.

 

The person with the largest army always wins, it's just a matter of how long.