Ayrilana.1396 Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why does this argument always turn into a debate of afk farming and buying your way through content? If you actually play the game like a normal person it takes much less time to get the pve gear. But by all means if you want to argue that flipping camps for 500 hours is an easy way to get legendary armor then try it out yourself. Personally I would find raiding a couple times a week to be far easier. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Typically only raiders are able to do full raid clears and it’s not something a random player can expect to do. If they do go the raid route, you have to account for all of the time it takes for them to gain experience on how to do each raid encounter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would expect that someone trying to get pve legendary armor would become a raider though. Just like its not recommended to play wvw entirely solo just flipping objectives, its not really recommended to do raids casually in pugs. Raids become much easier with a guild, both in learning the fights and then efficiently farming them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes they would probably eventually become a raider but there’s still time spent getting to the point that they can participated in experiences clear group. Some may get lucky and join a guild’s clear group who will carry them as they learn and eventually pull their weight. However, sPvP and WvW do not require this “learning period” as you can jump right in earning your time-gated rewards are the same rate you would if you were a veteran in that game mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont think anyone is questioning the time spent learning raids. And besides, most new pvp and wvw players arent able to play nearly 400 games a season or finish the skirmish reward track every week. If its a question of obtaining legendary armor as someone who is dedicated to the gamemode, pve is far quicker. If you then assume the player is a veteran of the gamemode, pve is even faster. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It’s not about whether people are questioning the time but them ignoring it completely. Getting armor through raids is quicker only if they’re already an established raider. Someone brand new is not going to immediately be off doing full clears. They’re going to have to spend time learning the mechanics for all of the fights as well as their rotation(s). This learning phase makes it take much longer to obtain legendary armor than from the other modes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again I have to disagree that the time spent learning raids is a significant factor when comparing the total time. Many raid bosses are very simple for beginners with a decent understanding of their class, so right from the start they are earning a fair number of LI. It might not be the weekly cap but its still significant. As for wvw and pvp if we are assuming someone is brand new then its very unlikely they are going to spend 20 hours a week in wvw or play 400 games a pvp season, so all three methods have their initial barrier to start earning materials. The main factor is the time gating. Pve is 6/12+ weeks, wvw is 22+ weeks, pvp is 3+ seasons. You can get all 3 sets semi afk if you want, but that is completely beside the point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ahm no. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please don't compare 6-9 experienced raiders carrying, I'm sorry: "teaching", 1-4 new players with actual raid progression. Most players take a significant time to learn to do raids, especially bosses which require dedicated roles. This goes double for W5-7. I have been a part of and/or have gotten to know groups of players who actually "recently" got experience on many bosses, 1 group end of last year, the other early last year. Both groups took a significant time to master fights, especially the first few kills were the longest until a basic raid understanding and approach was developed, again: these players started from scratch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The moment you are not at the weekly cap, you are also not at 12 weeks per legendary armor. If you "only" drop the weekly cap from 25 LI/LD to say 20 (let's say skipping Wing 5 and Qadim 2). You are already at minimum 15 weeks for an armor. If you drop the LI/LD per week to W1-4 only, you are at 20 weeks per armor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All the while having failure states for PvE, and group/squad management. Any person who has ever managed a raid squad or guild or regular trainings for an extended period of time, knows that you need to constantly fill up your roster, and occasionally retrain new players. None of this is present in WvW or PvP, where the only failure state is not putting in enough time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus the acquisition methods are rather balanced. The "fastest" one has rather hefty failure states and requires actually cooperation. The other 2 just need you to show up and thus take longer. I'd call that pretty much balanced. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > New players can get pve legendary armor in a minimum of 6 weeks with 150 LI. If you are making your second or third set you should be experienced enough to get close to the weekly cap without too much trouble. Im not sure how else to say this. You can cheese the system and farm legendary armor in all 3 modes by playing semi afk. You can buy your way through raids, you can find a guild to carry you, you can flip camps in wvw, you can afk and throw pvp matches, whatever. This is besides the point. In all three modes the average new player probably wont hit the weekly/seasonal cap. Most dedicated players will probably get close, the main factor is time gating. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. I have to disagree here. I know a lot of players who have even completed their 3 armors. Most of them are no where near clearing all 7 wings weekly, or even within 3-4 hours. If you are lacking experience or exposure to more casual raiders, then that is something you might want to look into. In fact I'd make a claim that most raiders do not full clear weekly beyond W1-4, and definitely not wing 5 or all 7 wings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > If I need to give an example, look at wvw. It takes roughly 20 hours each week to finish the skirmish reward track. Im assuming that most people dedicated to the gamemode play in a guild, and that is a lot of time for an organized group to commit to every week. Its rare to even find a guild that plays that much, and even rarer to find one that keeps up that pace for nearly half a year. The argument that "you can just play solo and farm afk" Is often just telling people to play in a way that doesnt interest them. I could say the same thing to pve raiders, "if your guild doesnt hit the weekly LI cap, then just join some pugs or join/buy a clear with another guild". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a vast difference between just afk flipping a camp and raid clearing content. Sorry but this is bs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > Some people hate small scale fighting and roaming just as much as some people hate pugging. The fact that pugging raids might be more challenging doesnt change the fact that in both cases its up to the individual person to decide whether or not its worth putting up with something they dislike to get rewards. The effort involved in actively playing the different gamemodes is roughly the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well we will have to disagree then. You are vastly misrepresenting how difficult it is for players to clear raids. I could link to the hundreds of pages of threads on this issue in the fractal, dungeon and rais forum, but let's keep it simple and just disagree. > > > > > > > > > > > > And I have known players who are very average skill-wise yet still get the maximum LI each week. This just the same argument of "wvw and pvp takes no skill so it should take longer". Legendaries have never been about skill. They have always been long term rewards for dedicated players. So once again I need to clarify that im not trying to argue about the theoretical effort it takes. There are "effortless" ways and challenging ways to get all 3 sets of armor. There will always be some people who afk farm in wvw, or bot/throw pvp games. If you argue that this is the reason why it should take longer to get legendary gear you are claiming that in game rewards should be balanced around people who are griefing or breaking tos. > > > > > > > > > > > > For hardcore players, time gating is undeniably the most limiting factor. Obviously casual players arent going to cap out on LI each week, just like how casual players arent going to finish the skirmish track every week or play 400 ranked games a season. So in most cases time gating is still the most limiting factor and it can even be more punishing for casual wvw and pvp players since they will rarely earn the final track chests which reward the most materials. > > > > > > > > > > There we have it. You want the content to be balanced around hardcore players, for which either approach is insignificant, since a hardcore WvW players has no problem in getting the tickets many times over. Once he is a higher rank even faster. Same applies to PvP. > > > > > > > > > > I don't think that hardcore players make up the majority of players playing either content. As such I don't consider balancing around that. It's as easy as that. > > > > > > > > Perhaps you misunderstood. Compared to pve, getting wvw and pvp armor is slower for hardcore players. Its arguably even slower for casual players depending on playtime vs how many bosses they can kill. Im not arguing for hardcore balance in stating any of this. All im saying is that in most cases it takes longer to get wvw and pvp legendary armor. > > > > > > Hardcore sPvP and WvW players will be earning more pips. What you, and the OP, have been doing is using the rate that a veteran raider would obtain LI versus the rate that a beginner WvW/sPvP player would earn pips. It’s an unfair comparison. > > > > > > You compare the rates that hardcore players would earn doing either of those modes or you compare the rates of casual/beginner players in each of those modes. You don’t mix and match rates so that it benefits your narrative. > > > > Pretty much this. > > I seem to recall stating multiple times that casual/new players will likely not be earning the max number of weekly/seasonal pips, while hardcore players will. I also seem to recall saying that hardcore raiders will likely earn the LI cap while casual/new players wont. Yes. You have stated that. The problem is that you mix and match the rates across the game modes. You use the rate that an experienced player, within an experienced raid group, would earn LI versus that a new player, or whatever you consider to be “casual”, in WvW would earn pips. It’s an unfair comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradoxoglanis.1904 Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why does this argument always turn into a debate of afk farming and buying your way through content? If you actually play the game like a normal person it takes much less time to get the pve gear. But by all means if you want to argue that flipping camps for 500 hours is an easy way to get legendary armor then try it out yourself. Personally I would find raiding a couple times a week to be far easier. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Typically only raiders are able to do full raid clears and it’s not something a random player can expect to do. If they do go the raid route, you have to account for all of the time it takes for them to gain experience on how to do each raid encounter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would expect that someone trying to get pve legendary armor would become a raider though. Just like its not recommended to play wvw entirely solo just flipping objectives, its not really recommended to do raids casually in pugs. Raids become much easier with a guild, both in learning the fights and then efficiently farming them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes they would probably eventually become a raider but there’s still time spent getting to the point that they can participated in experiences clear group. Some may get lucky and join a guild’s clear group who will carry them as they learn and eventually pull their weight. However, sPvP and WvW do not require this “learning period” as you can jump right in earning your time-gated rewards are the same rate you would if you were a veteran in that game mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont think anyone is questioning the time spent learning raids. And besides, most new pvp and wvw players arent able to play nearly 400 games a season or finish the skirmish reward track every week. If its a question of obtaining legendary armor as someone who is dedicated to the gamemode, pve is far quicker. If you then assume the player is a veteran of the gamemode, pve is even faster. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It’s not about whether people are questioning the time but them ignoring it completely. Getting armor through raids is quicker only if they’re already an established raider. Someone brand new is not going to immediately be off doing full clears. They’re going to have to spend time learning the mechanics for all of the fights as well as their rotation(s). This learning phase makes it take much longer to obtain legendary armor than from the other modes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again I have to disagree that the time spent learning raids is a significant factor when comparing the total time. Many raid bosses are very simple for beginners with a decent understanding of their class, so right from the start they are earning a fair number of LI. It might not be the weekly cap but its still significant. As for wvw and pvp if we are assuming someone is brand new then its very unlikely they are going to spend 20 hours a week in wvw or play 400 games a pvp season, so all three methods have their initial barrier to start earning materials. The main factor is the time gating. Pve is 6/12+ weeks, wvw is 22+ weeks, pvp is 3+ seasons. You can get all 3 sets semi afk if you want, but that is completely beside the point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ahm no. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please don't compare 6-9 experienced raiders carrying, I'm sorry: "teaching", 1-4 new players with actual raid progression. Most players take a significant time to learn to do raids, especially bosses which require dedicated roles. This goes double for W5-7. I have been a part of and/or have gotten to know groups of players who actually "recently" got experience on many bosses, 1 group end of last year, the other early last year. Both groups took a significant time to master fights, especially the first few kills were the longest until a basic raid understanding and approach was developed, again: these players started from scratch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The moment you are not at the weekly cap, you are also not at 12 weeks per legendary armor. If you "only" drop the weekly cap from 25 LI/LD to say 20 (let's say skipping Wing 5 and Qadim 2). You are already at minimum 15 weeks for an armor. If you drop the LI/LD per week to W1-4 only, you are at 20 weeks per armor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All the while having failure states for PvE, and group/squad management. Any person who has ever managed a raid squad or guild or regular trainings for an extended period of time, knows that you need to constantly fill up your roster, and occasionally retrain new players. None of this is present in WvW or PvP, where the only failure state is not putting in enough time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus the acquisition methods are rather balanced. The "fastest" one has rather hefty failure states and requires actually cooperation. The other 2 just need you to show up and thus take longer. I'd call that pretty much balanced. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > New players can get pve legendary armor in a minimum of 6 weeks with 150 LI. If you are making your second or third set you should be experienced enough to get close to the weekly cap without too much trouble. Im not sure how else to say this. You can cheese the system and farm legendary armor in all 3 modes by playing semi afk. You can buy your way through raids, you can find a guild to carry you, you can flip camps in wvw, you can afk and throw pvp matches, whatever. This is besides the point. In all three modes the average new player probably wont hit the weekly/seasonal cap. Most dedicated players will probably get close, the main factor is time gating. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. I have to disagree here. I know a lot of players who have even completed their 3 armors. Most of them are no where near clearing all 7 wings weekly, or even within 3-4 hours. If you are lacking experience or exposure to more casual raiders, then that is something you might want to look into. In fact I'd make a claim that most raiders do not full clear weekly beyond W1-4, and definitely not wing 5 or all 7 wings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > If I need to give an example, look at wvw. It takes roughly 20 hours each week to finish the skirmish reward track. Im assuming that most people dedicated to the gamemode play in a guild, and that is a lot of time for an organized group to commit to every week. Its rare to even find a guild that plays that much, and even rarer to find one that keeps up that pace for nearly half a year. The argument that "you can just play solo and farm afk" Is often just telling people to play in a way that doesnt interest them. I could say the same thing to pve raiders, "if your guild doesnt hit the weekly LI cap, then just join some pugs or join/buy a clear with another guild". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a vast difference between just afk flipping a camp and raid clearing content. Sorry but this is bs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > Some people hate small scale fighting and roaming just as much as some people hate pugging. The fact that pugging raids might be more challenging doesnt change the fact that in both cases its up to the individual person to decide whether or not its worth putting up with something they dislike to get rewards. The effort involved in actively playing the different gamemodes is roughly the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well we will have to disagree then. You are vastly misrepresenting how difficult it is for players to clear raids. I could link to the hundreds of pages of threads on this issue in the fractal, dungeon and rais forum, but let's keep it simple and just disagree. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I have known players who are very average skill-wise yet still get the maximum LI each week. This just the same argument of "wvw and pvp takes no skill so it should take longer". Legendaries have never been about skill. They have always been long term rewards for dedicated players. So once again I need to clarify that im not trying to argue about the theoretical effort it takes. There are "effortless" ways and challenging ways to get all 3 sets of armor. There will always be some people who afk farm in wvw, or bot/throw pvp games. If you argue that this is the reason why it should take longer to get legendary gear you are claiming that in game rewards should be balanced around people who are griefing or breaking tos. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For hardcore players, time gating is undeniably the most limiting factor. Obviously casual players arent going to cap out on LI each week, just like how casual players arent going to finish the skirmish track every week or play 400 ranked games a season. So in most cases time gating is still the most limiting factor and it can even be more punishing for casual wvw and pvp players since they will rarely earn the final track chests which reward the most materials. > > > > > > > > > > > > There we have it. You want the content to be balanced around hardcore players, for which either approach is insignificant, since a hardcore WvW players has no problem in getting the tickets many times over. Once he is a higher rank even faster. Same applies to PvP. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think that hardcore players make up the majority of players playing either content. As such I don't consider balancing around that. It's as easy as that. > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps you misunderstood. Compared to pve, getting wvw and pvp armor is slower for hardcore players. Its arguably even slower for casual players depending on playtime vs how many bosses they can kill. Im not arguing for hardcore balance in stating any of this. All im saying is that in most cases it takes longer to get wvw and pvp legendary armor. > > > > > > > > Hardcore sPvP and WvW players will be earning more pips. What you, and the OP, have been doing is using the rate that a veteran raider would obtain LI versus the rate that a beginner WvW/sPvP player would earn pips. It’s an unfair comparison. > > > > > > > > You compare the rates that hardcore players would earn doing either of those modes or you compare the rates of casual/beginner players in each of those modes. You don’t mix and match rates so that it benefits your narrative. > > > > > > Pretty much this. > > > > I seem to recall stating multiple times that casual/new players will likely not be earning the max number of weekly/seasonal pips, while hardcore players will. I also seem to recall saying that hardcore raiders will likely earn the LI cap while casual/new players wont. > > > Yes. You have stated that. The problem is that you mix and match the rates across the game modes. You use the rate that an experienced player, within an experienced raid group, would earn LI versus that a new player, or whatever you consider to be “casual”, in WvW would earn pips. It’s an unfair comparison. Perhaps you misunderstood. Compared to pve, getting wvw and pvp armor is slower for hardcore players. Its arguably even slower for casual players depending on playtime vs how many bosses they can kill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why does this argument always turn into a debate of afk farming and buying your way through content? If you actually play the game like a normal person it takes much less time to get the pve gear. But by all means if you want to argue that flipping camps for 500 hours is an easy way to get legendary armor then try it out yourself. Personally I would find raiding a couple times a week to be far easier. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Typically only raiders are able to do full raid clears and it’s not something a random player can expect to do. If they do go the raid route, you have to account for all of the time it takes for them to gain experience on how to do each raid encounter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would expect that someone trying to get pve legendary armor would become a raider though. Just like its not recommended to play wvw entirely solo just flipping objectives, its not really recommended to do raids casually in pugs. Raids become much easier with a guild, both in learning the fights and then efficiently farming them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes they would probably eventually become a raider but there’s still time spent getting to the point that they can participated in experiences clear group. Some may get lucky and join a guild’s clear group who will carry them as they learn and eventually pull their weight. However, sPvP and WvW do not require this “learning period” as you can jump right in earning your time-gated rewards are the same rate you would if you were a veteran in that game mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont think anyone is questioning the time spent learning raids. And besides, most new pvp and wvw players arent able to play nearly 400 games a season or finish the skirmish reward track every week. If its a question of obtaining legendary armor as someone who is dedicated to the gamemode, pve is far quicker. If you then assume the player is a veteran of the gamemode, pve is even faster. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It’s not about whether people are questioning the time but them ignoring it completely. Getting armor through raids is quicker only if they’re already an established raider. Someone brand new is not going to immediately be off doing full clears. They’re going to have to spend time learning the mechanics for all of the fights as well as their rotation(s). This learning phase makes it take much longer to obtain legendary armor than from the other modes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again I have to disagree that the time spent learning raids is a significant factor when comparing the total time. Many raid bosses are very simple for beginners with a decent understanding of their class, so right from the start they are earning a fair number of LI. It might not be the weekly cap but its still significant. As for wvw and pvp if we are assuming someone is brand new then its very unlikely they are going to spend 20 hours a week in wvw or play 400 games a pvp season, so all three methods have their initial barrier to start earning materials. The main factor is the time gating. Pve is 6/12+ weeks, wvw is 22+ weeks, pvp is 3+ seasons. You can get all 3 sets semi afk if you want, but that is completely beside the point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ahm no. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please don't compare 6-9 experienced raiders carrying, I'm sorry: "teaching", 1-4 new players with actual raid progression. Most players take a significant time to learn to do raids, especially bosses which require dedicated roles. This goes double for W5-7. I have been a part of and/or have gotten to know groups of players who actually "recently" got experience on many bosses, 1 group end of last year, the other early last year. Both groups took a significant time to master fights, especially the first few kills were the longest until a basic raid understanding and approach was developed, again: these players started from scratch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The moment you are not at the weekly cap, you are also not at 12 weeks per legendary armor. If you "only" drop the weekly cap from 25 LI/LD to say 20 (let's say skipping Wing 5 and Qadim 2). You are already at minimum 15 weeks for an armor. If you drop the LI/LD per week to W1-4 only, you are at 20 weeks per armor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All the while having failure states for PvE, and group/squad management. Any person who has ever managed a raid squad or guild or regular trainings for an extended period of time, knows that you need to constantly fill up your roster, and occasionally retrain new players. None of this is present in WvW or PvP, where the only failure state is not putting in enough time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus the acquisition methods are rather balanced. The "fastest" one has rather hefty failure states and requires actually cooperation. The other 2 just need you to show up and thus take longer. I'd call that pretty much balanced. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > New players can get pve legendary armor in a minimum of 6 weeks with 150 LI. If you are making your second or third set you should be experienced enough to get close to the weekly cap without too much trouble. Im not sure how else to say this. You can cheese the system and farm legendary armor in all 3 modes by playing semi afk. You can buy your way through raids, you can find a guild to carry you, you can flip camps in wvw, you can afk and throw pvp matches, whatever. This is besides the point. In all three modes the average new player probably wont hit the weekly/seasonal cap. Most dedicated players will probably get close, the main factor is time gating. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. I have to disagree here. I know a lot of players who have even completed their 3 armors. Most of them are no where near clearing all 7 wings weekly, or even within 3-4 hours. If you are lacking experience or exposure to more casual raiders, then that is something you might want to look into. In fact I'd make a claim that most raiders do not full clear weekly beyond W1-4, and definitely not wing 5 or all 7 wings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > > If I need to give an example, look at wvw. It takes roughly 20 hours each week to finish the skirmish reward track. Im assuming that most people dedicated to the gamemode play in a guild, and that is a lot of time for an organized group to commit to every week. Its rare to even find a guild that plays that much, and even rarer to find one that keeps up that pace for nearly half a year. The argument that "you can just play solo and farm afk" Is often just telling people to play in a way that doesnt interest them. I could say the same thing to pve raiders, "if your guild doesnt hit the weekly LI cap, then just join some pugs or join/buy a clear with another guild". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a vast difference between just afk flipping a camp and raid clearing content. Sorry but this is bs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > > > > > Some people hate small scale fighting and roaming just as much as some people hate pugging. The fact that pugging raids might be more challenging doesnt change the fact that in both cases its up to the individual person to decide whether or not its worth putting up with something they dislike to get rewards. The effort involved in actively playing the different gamemodes is roughly the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well we will have to disagree then. You are vastly misrepresenting how difficult it is for players to clear raids. I could link to the hundreds of pages of threads on this issue in the fractal, dungeon and rais forum, but let's keep it simple and just disagree. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I have known players who are very average skill-wise yet still get the maximum LI each week. This just the same argument of "wvw and pvp takes no skill so it should take longer". Legendaries have never been about skill. They have always been long term rewards for dedicated players. So once again I need to clarify that im not trying to argue about the theoretical effort it takes. There are "effortless" ways and challenging ways to get all 3 sets of armor. There will always be some people who afk farm in wvw, or bot/throw pvp games. If you argue that this is the reason why it should take longer to get legendary gear you are claiming that in game rewards should be balanced around people who are griefing or breaking tos. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For hardcore players, time gating is undeniably the most limiting factor. Obviously casual players arent going to cap out on LI each week, just like how casual players arent going to finish the skirmish track every week or play 400 ranked games a season. So in most cases time gating is still the most limiting factor and it can even be more punishing for casual wvw and pvp players since they will rarely earn the final track chests which reward the most materials. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There we have it. You want the content to be balanced around hardcore players, for which either approach is insignificant, since a hardcore WvW players has no problem in getting the tickets many times over. Once he is a higher rank even faster. Same applies to PvP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think that hardcore players make up the majority of players playing either content. As such I don't consider balancing around that. It's as easy as that. > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps you misunderstood. Compared to pve, getting wvw and pvp armor is slower for hardcore players. Its arguably even slower for casual players depending on playtime vs how many bosses they can kill. Im not arguing for hardcore balance in stating any of this. All im saying is that in most cases it takes longer to get wvw and pvp legendary armor. > > > > > > > > > > Hardcore sPvP and WvW players will be earning more pips. What you, and the OP, have been doing is using the rate that a veteran raider would obtain LI versus the rate that a beginner WvW/sPvP player would earn pips. It’s an unfair comparison. > > > > > > > > > > You compare the rates that hardcore players would earn doing either of those modes or you compare the rates of casual/beginner players in each of those modes. You don’t mix and match rates so that it benefits your narrative. > > > > > > > > Pretty much this. > > > > > > I seem to recall stating multiple times that casual/new players will likely not be earning the max number of weekly/seasonal pips, while hardcore players will. I also seem to recall saying that hardcore raiders will likely earn the LI cap while casual/new players wont. > > > > > > Yes. You have stated that. The problem is that you mix and match the rates across the game modes. You use the rate that an experienced player, within an experienced raid group, would earn LI versus that a new player, or whatever you consider to be “casual”, in WvW would earn pips. It’s an unfair comparison. > > > Perhaps you misunderstood. Compared to pve, getting wvw and pvp armor is slower for hardcore players. Its arguably even slower for casual players depending on playtime vs how many bosses they can kill. If there are differences then you need to account for raids requiring more skill and effort to do whereas the other two just require you to be present and doing the bare minimum. As of late I try to avoid analogies because people often focus on the differences and miss the entire point. But here goes: Imagine two people that want to buy a 30K car. One works as a cook at Taco Bell and another works as a cook at a five star restaurant. The latter position requires more skill/knowledge than the former so the progress one makes towards buying the car is greater. You can obtain legendary armor in either of the three modes. Of those modes, raids require more skill and knowledge. As a result, the progress you make towards the armor is greater than from the other game modes. 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Obtena.7952 Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > Perhaps you misunderstood. Compared to pve, getting wvw and pvp armor is slower for hardcore players. Its arguably even slower for casual players depending on playtime vs how many bosses they can kill. Im not arguing for hardcore balance in stating any of this. All im saying is that in most cases it takes longer to get wvw and pvp legendary armor. Maybe ... let's assume what you say is true ... if Anet is attempting to make earning the armor time-equivalent, your own post here illustrates that would be impossible to achieve for all players anyways ... so what's the improvement? What's the value of changing it if we still have different players needing more or less time than others depending on the game mode? It doesn't make sense. Let's be frank ... this suggestion isn't some good intentioned initiative to make it fair for everyone to earn legnedary armor. The request is based on how the OP thinks the change would benefit him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoow.1694 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 > @"jwhite.7012" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"jwhite.7012" said: > > > > I suggest that you do a raid training and see just how long it takes a group of new players to beat a boss. > > > > > > And don't be snide. I've already stated that I simply do not enjoy raiding in GW2. I've tried it, multiple times. I simply do not enjoy it. Can i do it? Yes, and I have. > > > > It was not meant as being snide. It just seems that you have little personal experience in this matter and you’re saying things that don’t make sense. If you did raid trainings, or possibly started to raid in a effort to obtain your first set, you would see how things truly are for a new player starting out raids. There’s obviously nothing I, nor anyone else, can really say to convince you otherwise so that’s why personal experience would hopefully get you to come around. > > Do you WvW for 18+ hours /week? > Do you play 200+ games in pvp every season? > I've already said I'm in the Raid training group, I've ran multiple raids (up to w4) with my old guild. It took us a week to learn up to w4. That was 12 of us with 2 alternates. 2 hours every night. I just didn't enjoy them. Just as some have suggested that I half-afk sPvP or flip a camp every 10 minutes- it's just not an enjoyable experience. I have respecced my ascended gear upwards of 20+ times, and honestly its just annoying at this point to have to go out and refarm up my spirit shards every time a WvW meta changes. I've crafted 7 sets, 2 legendaries, and have an entire bank filled with ascended weapons. All I want is the functionality of the legendary armor for WvW so swapping and adjusting are "reasonable". > > You've neglected valid points, and your final solution is "go raid train some more". Yea, your twisted mentality is specifically why I do not enjoy raiding in GW2. Exactly my point, that‘s why they should for the love of god finally make legendary armor and trinkets not account bound and make it possible to sell them via the TP. Some people simply don‘t have the connection or PC to play WvW, don‘t want to spend their 2 hours to play the game each day mindlessly attacking NPC‘s in raids or get frustrated by time limitations and the toxicity in PvP. It would offer so many possibolities, people could farm one half of their armor/trinkets and maybe buy the other half. That for example would cut the frustrating part instantly in half, but we got a big faction of elitist (PvE) players that come towards people who suggest ideas like that with vulgarity for not wanting to spend their days doing stuff they don‘t enjoy or wanting to stay in their game mode. And it is strangely always the raid players, I assume because they want to keep feeling special fighting a NPC 125 times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katary.7096 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 > @"jwhite.7012" said: > Legendary armor should be obtainable across all three methods with the same time restrictions. > PvE - 6 weeks (3-4 hours /week) > PvP - 3 seasons of 8x3x8 (just to get the tickets) - (hundreds of hours to amass the ascended shards of glory) minmum of 19 weeks, but likely longer since it requires the additional repeatable chests. > WvW - Minimum of 22 weeks > > Even after reaching the time-gates, you still have to tack on all the mats that need to be farmed. Increase the sPvP ascended shards of glory collection rates. Increase the WvW Skirmish claim tickets - at least to the point where it's relatively the same time frame as going the PvE route. You state that the legendary armor acquisition in sPvP and WvW takes too long when compared to the PvE alternative and propose that people should be getting ascended shards of glory and skirmish claim tickets faster than what is the case currently. I assume that you know that are more rewards than just legendary armor being offered for ascended shards of glory and skirmish claim tickets. On the off chance that you do not, you can review the full lists here: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascended_Shard_of_Glory https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Skirmish_Claim_Ticket Your "solution" would effect the time/ effort required to obtain all of these items, why in the world do you think that that is likely to happen? A strictly superior suggestion is to reduce the prices of Star of Glory and Legendary War Insight instead. Your approach should not even be supported by people who agree with the claim that creating legendary armor in sPvP and WvW takes too much time, since the point that it is actually adressing is that sPvP and WvW are not rewarding enough in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucianTheAngelic.7054 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Legendary Armor was never even meant to be obtainable outside of raids. You should be thankful Anet even added another way to get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blambidy.3216 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 U know I truly had to think about it. It is fact that you can get legendary armor in less amount of time if you can actually kill every boss in wings 1-4 every week. And u know what, I thought what is a realistic time a brand new raider would have to put in. Let’s start with throwing out w2 as brand new raider. Why? Because as much as a lot of people do not put to account. If your bad in dodging or recognizing bad aoes which new raiders will be, sloth will wreck you from the first slam. So I thought w2 would def be out of li reach until a month or 2 of raiding. Or depending how fast a player can truly develop into understanding that mechanics are important. Most new raiders struggle with cairn but sloth starting is just not realistic unless you have a good guild constantly picking you up. Which I doubt would they let a new raider come into in the first place. The other realistic thing. Xera is also not new player friendly. A person coming into the game to start raiding is impossible without leyline gliding. In all honesty when people first raid only w1 and w4 are ever touched for a couple weeks until the person can get better gear and develop their rotations better to kill the boss. So at the start w1 + w4 + escort That’s 9 li for the first few weeks until the player could even develop to touch w2 and and kc- xera. W3 isn’t hard however kc is a big gap of understanding rotations matter for damage. And xera involves you grinding mastery points and ton of exp to get into the main fight. 9 li for say the first couple weeks to a couple months. Then after and (if) the person gets better then it would be all 15. But for people to assume that you can just pop in raiding and get all 15 li when you start raiding is a big stretch. The most a person will get when first starting at maybe 8 and that’s stretching it. I’d say they would first get 6-7 their first week of grinding but that would mean many hours and dedication. Also I didn’t count how long it takes for some players to get diviner’s for support. Or some players to get minstrel gear to tank. As much as you can get exotics however. Diviner’s and minstrels are a pain to get. The other set besides minstrels could be commanders however you are time gated because of the charged quarts. I didn’t count how long it takes for a person to understand their rotation or class. I didnt count how long it takes supports to understand boons they need to give. As much as people dont put it to account but fractals tie in with raids also to get better drops and gold to craft the gear you need to raid or the time you put into strikes if you want gear through that way. So compared to Pvp all you need is blue gear and level to 21 + get your pvp level to 20 then press the ranked button. For wvw get to level 60? And participate. But saying raiding is “faster” for your first set. It’s a lot more grind then what people think. And a lot of time. Not to mention less gold if you spend 2-3 hours with no kill on sloth vs pvp ranked 2 hours of pvp you get chests or wvw you get at least bags and pips and a reward track. Anyways please put into all account. Yes you can buy raid clears however buying doesn’t count for people actually putting in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friday.7864 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 I would like to do WvW a few times a week for a couple of hours to get the **basic** lege armor but I'm being punished way too much for being a low rank... Would have to play WvW all week to finish Diamond while a high rank can prolly do it in a day or two. That's too much of a disparity. Sure, WvW is fun for a change of pace but even after hours of playing I didn't feel like I made any progress towards my goal. That's a bit too frustrating so except for gift of battle I gave up on the game mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 > @"Friday.7864" said: > I would like to do WvW a few times a week for a couple of hours to get the **basic** lege armor but I'm being punished way too much for being a low rank... > Would have to play WvW all week to finish Diamond while a high rank can prolly do it in a day or two. That's too much of a disparity. > Sure, WvW is fun for a change of pace but even after hours of playing I didn't feel like I made any progress towards my goal. That's a bit too frustrating so except for gift of battle I gave up on the game mode. I’d use “hours” instead of “days” because it doesn’t take more than 24 hours to complete the skirmish track. I’m only getting +2 pips from rank and I can complete a skirmish reward track in 9-13 hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blambidy.3216 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 > @"Friday.7864" said: > I would like to do WvW a few times a week for a couple of hours to get the **basic** lege armor but I'm being punished way too much for being a low rank... > Would have to play WvW all week to finish Diamond while a high rank can prolly do it in a day or two. That's too much of a disparity. > Sure, WvW is fun for a change of pace but even after hours of playing I didn't feel like I made any progress towards my goal. That's a bit too frustrating so except for gift of battle I gave up on the game mode. I got the legendary wvw ring within a month - month a half the most and my level is at the low 200 level in wvw. So I only get + 1 added pip. You only need 3 days of wvw. 1 full day + 2 days of just going right before reset. However as much as people don’t say it. Always go for out numbered to get pips faster. Your talking 12 pips vs 6 pips. Which is much better. And if it is outnumbered don’t tell anyone. That way all you do is kill sentrys. Or little camps. If you die owell. Go for sentrys and repeat till outnumbered is gone. But don’t say you need a high level to get all you need to finish diamond in one day. That’s people with like lvl 1000-2000. Which you can get a legendary armor set way before that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor.1384 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 The wvw and pvp versions should at least have unique skins, and I dont see how any player wouldnt want this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 > @"Doctor.1384" said: > The wvw and pvp versions should at least have unique skins, and I dont see how any player wouldnt want this. No. The trade off for sPvP and WvW having legendary armor was that they would not have skins specific to the legendary armor itself. The ascended armor sets used as the precursors are unique enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzerdragon.8791 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Franky I'll take a faster way to make more legendary armor. How bout removing mystic clovers. Took me 4 to 5 months for the first set of raid armor. The gold required for mats , mystic clovers , and not having enough time to full clear everything was a contributor. Once I had the builds and experience to full clear all the wings things went much fast for my last few pieces. It was a good reward for half a year of work. 16 to 20 weeks is about consistent with a previous post of estimating progression to a full clear. This time is also consistent with pvp and wvw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friday.7864 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 > @"blambidy.3216" said: > > @"Friday.7864" said: > > I would like to do WvW a few times a week for a couple of hours to get the **basic** lege armor but I'm being punished way too much for being a low rank... > > Would have to play WvW all week to finish Diamond while a high rank can prolly do it in a day or two. That's too much of a disparity. > > Sure, WvW is fun for a change of pace but even after hours of playing I didn't feel like I made any progress towards my goal. That's a bit too frustrating so except for gift of battle I gave up on the game mode. > > I got the legendary wvw ring within a month - month a half the most and my level is at the low 200 level in wvw. So I only get + 1 added pip. You only need 3 days of wvw. 1 full day + 2 days of just going right before reset. However as much as people don’t say it. Always go for out numbered to get pips faster. Your talking 12 pips vs 6 pips. Which is much better. And if it is outnumbered don’t tell anyone. That way all you do is kill sentrys. Or little camps. If you die owell. Go for sentrys and repeat till outnumbered is gone. But don’t say you need a high level to get all you need to finish diamond in one day. That’s people with like lvl 1000-2000. Which you can get a legendary armor set way before that. Outnumbered is something I can see only in the morning when I'm at work. In theory it sounds amazing, irl it's useless unless you're a kid on vacation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 > @"Friday.7864" said: > > @"blambidy.3216" said: > > > @"Friday.7864" said: > > > I would like to do WvW a few times a week for a couple of hours to get the **basic** lege armor but I'm being punished way too much for being a low rank... > > > Would have to play WvW all week to finish Diamond while a high rank can prolly do it in a day or two. That's too much of a disparity. > > > Sure, WvW is fun for a change of pace but even after hours of playing I didn't feel like I made any progress towards my goal. That's a bit too frustrating so except for gift of battle I gave up on the game mode. > > > > I got the legendary wvw ring within a month - month a half the most and my level is at the low 200 level in wvw. So I only get + 1 added pip. You only need 3 days of wvw. 1 full day + 2 days of just going right before reset. However as much as people don’t say it. Always go for out numbered to get pips faster. Your talking 12 pips vs 6 pips. Which is much better. And if it is outnumbered don’t tell anyone. That way all you do is kill sentrys. Or little camps. If you die owell. Go for sentrys and repeat till outnumbered is gone. But don’t say you need a high level to get all you need to finish diamond in one day. That’s people with like lvl 1000-2000. Which you can get a legendary armor set way before that. > > Outnumbered is something I can see only in the morning when I'm at work. > In theory it sounds amazing, irl it's useless unless you're a kid on vacation. I’ve seen it available at all hours of the day. You just need to continually be hopping maps and checking the buffs of others to see if it’s available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor.1384 Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Friday.7864" said: > > > @"blambidy.3216" said: > > > > @"Friday.7864" said: > > > > I would like to do WvW a few times a week for a couple of hours to get the **basic** lege armor but I'm being punished way too much for being a low rank... > > > > Would have to play WvW all week to finish Diamond while a high rank can prolly do it in a day or two. That's too much of a disparity. > > > > Sure, WvW is fun for a change of pace but even after hours of playing I didn't feel like I made any progress towards my goal. That's a bit too frustrating so except for gift of battle I gave up on the game mode. > > > > > > I got the legendary wvw ring within a month - month a half the most and my level is at the low 200 level in wvw. So I only get + 1 added pip. You only need 3 days of wvw. 1 full day + 2 days of just going right before reset. However as much as people don’t say it. Always go for out numbered to get pips faster. Your talking 12 pips vs 6 pips. Which is much better. And if it is outnumbered don’t tell anyone. That way all you do is kill sentrys. Or little camps. If you die owell. Go for sentrys and repeat till outnumbered is gone. But don’t say you need a high level to get all you need to finish diamond in one day. That’s people with like lvl 1000-2000. Which you can get a legendary armor set way before that. > > > > Outnumbered is something I can see only in the morning when I'm at work. > > In theory it sounds amazing, irl it's useless unless you're a kid on vacation. > > I’ve seen it available at all hours of the day. You just need to continually be hopping maps and checking the buffs of others to see if it’s available. This is not true, that buffs accessibility will vary with your server and population up-time > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Doctor.1384" said: > > The wvw and pvp versions should at least have unique skins, and I dont see how any player wouldnt want this. > > No. The trade off for sPvP and WvW having legendary armor was that they would not have skins specific to the legendary armor itself. The ascended armor sets used as the precursors are unique enough. Most people that don't raid would disagree. Since the skins are the same as the ascended precursors the item doesn't indicate the same prestige as its pve counterpart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 > @"Doctor.1384" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Friday.7864" said: > > > > @"blambidy.3216" said: > > > > > @"Friday.7864" said: > > > > > I would like to do WvW a few times a week for a couple of hours to get the **basic** lege armor but I'm being punished way too much for being a low rank... > > > > > Would have to play WvW all week to finish Diamond while a high rank can prolly do it in a day or two. That's too much of a disparity. > > > > > Sure, WvW is fun for a change of pace but even after hours of playing I didn't feel like I made any progress towards my goal. That's a bit too frustrating so except for gift of battle I gave up on the game mode. > > > > > > > > I got the legendary wvw ring within a month - month a half the most and my level is at the low 200 level in wvw. So I only get + 1 added pip. You only need 3 days of wvw. 1 full day + 2 days of just going right before reset. However as much as people don’t say it. Always go for out numbered to get pips faster. Your talking 12 pips vs 6 pips. Which is much better. And if it is outnumbered don’t tell anyone. That way all you do is kill sentrys. Or little camps. If you die owell. Go for sentrys and repeat till outnumbered is gone. But don’t say you need a high level to get all you need to finish diamond in one day. That’s people with like lvl 1000-2000. Which you can get a legendary armor set way before that. > > > > > > Outnumbered is something I can see only in the morning when I'm at work. > > > In theory it sounds amazing, irl it's useless unless you're a kid on vacation. > > > > I’ve seen it available at all hours of the day. You just need to continually be hopping maps and checking the buffs of others to see if it’s available. > > This is not true, that buffs accessibility will vary with your server and population up-time > I’m on BG which is a T1 server and one people argue that is over stacked. If I have seen the buff available at any hour then surely it can be on other servers. It all depends on how many players are on a map from your server versus all of the others. I also want to clarify that I don’t mean that it will always be available 100% of the time. I was just disputing the claim that it was **only** available in the morning. > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Doctor.1384" said: > > > The wvw and pvp versions should at least have unique skins, and I dont see how any player wouldnt want this. > > > > No. The trade off for sPvP and WvW having legendary armor was that they would not have skins specific to the legendary armor itself. The ascended armor sets used as the precursors are unique enough. > > Most people that don't raid would disagree. Since the skins are the same as the ascended precursors the item doesn't indicate the same prestige as its pve counterpart. The prestige is that it let’s them change stats and eventually equip across all of their characters that can use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friday.7864 Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Doctor.1384" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Friday.7864" said: > > > > > @"blambidy.3216" said: > > > > > > @"Friday.7864" said: > > > > > > I would like to do WvW a few times a week for a couple of hours to get the **basic** lege armor but I'm being punished way too much for being a low rank... > > > > > > Would have to play WvW all week to finish Diamond while a high rank can prolly do it in a day or two. That's too much of a disparity. > > > > > > Sure, WvW is fun for a change of pace but even after hours of playing I didn't feel like I made any progress towards my goal. That's a bit too frustrating so except for gift of battle I gave up on the game mode. > > > > > > > > > > I got the legendary wvw ring within a month - month a half the most and my level is at the low 200 level in wvw. So I only get + 1 added pip. You only need 3 days of wvw. 1 full day + 2 days of just going right before reset. However as much as people don’t say it. Always go for out numbered to get pips faster. Your talking 12 pips vs 6 pips. Which is much better. And if it is outnumbered don’t tell anyone. That way all you do is kill sentrys. Or little camps. If you die owell. Go for sentrys and repeat till outnumbered is gone. But don’t say you need a high level to get all you need to finish diamond in one day. That’s people with like lvl 1000-2000. Which you can get a legendary armor set way before that. > > > > > > > > Outnumbered is something I can see only in the morning when I'm at work. > > > > In theory it sounds amazing, irl it's useless unless you're a kid on vacation. > > > > > > I’ve seen it available at all hours of the day. You just need to continually be hopping maps and checking the buffs of others to see if it’s available. > > > > This is not true, that buffs accessibility will vary with your server and population up-time > > > > I’m on BG which is a T1 server and one people argue that is over stacked. If I have seen the buff available at any hour then surely it can be on other servers. It all depends on how many players are on a map from your server versus all of the others. I also want to clarify that I don’t mean that it will always be available 100% of the time. I was just disputing the claim that it was **only** available in the morning. > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Doctor.1384" said: > > > > The wvw and pvp versions should at least have unique skins, and I dont see how any player wouldnt want this. > > > > > > No. The trade off for sPvP and WvW having legendary armor was that they would not have skins specific to the legendary armor itself. The ascended armor sets used as the precursors are unique enough. > > > > Most people that don't raid would disagree. Since the skins are the same as the ascended precursors the item doesn't indicate the same prestige as its pve counterpart. > > The prestige is that it let’s them change stats and eventually equip across all of their characters that can use it. I can't even join some maps cuz they're full when I'm able to play and you're telling me there is surely an outnumbered buff somewhere... Guess all I can do is agree with a sarcastic #YES Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > Legendary Armor was never even meant to be obtainable outside of raids. You should be thankful Anet even added another way to get it. That was when they thought raids would be popular and end up as something most dedicated players would end up doing. They were wrong about that one, though. > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > It’s not about whether people are questioning the time but them ignoring it completely. Getting armor through raids is quicker only if they’re already an established raider. Someone brand new is not going to immediately be off doing full clears. Someone new to WvW is not going to hit diamond every week either, unless they'll spend like 5-6 hours a day for the whole week on it (which players new to mode aren't going to do - and definitely not for half a year). TBH, new players are not likely to get mithril either, and many won't even get to platinium. Those bonus pips from high WvW levels are very impactful here, and it takes a lot of time and dedication to earn those levels. Much more time than is needed to learn raiding at a level giving satisfactory LI gains. > They’re going to have to spend time learning the mechanics for all of the fights as well as their rotation(s). This learning phase makes it take much longer to obtain legendary armor than from the other modes. So, in your estimation, how long is the learning phase usually until someone can hit, say, half of total available weekly LIs? Personally, by the point i've managed to obtain one wvw legendary armor set, i've already had LI for 3 envoy sets. In that time i played wvw more than i raided. Yes, this does include the time put into training, which, for my group, was very, very long - it took us over 2 months just to kill VG for the first time. Notice, though, that, according to most of the forum raiders (including those that participate in this thread), times that long were an outlier, not a norm. There are raiders here claiming, that it takes mere few hours to learn one boss, so that needs to be taken into consideration - i have probably used way more time for training than average. For me, raids were still a much easier and much faster path than WvW. The sheer amount of time needed for a WvW set puts it well out of reach for most players that are not heavily dedicated WvWers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 > @"Friday.7864" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Doctor.1384" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Friday.7864" said: > > > > > > @"blambidy.3216" said: > > > > > > > @"Friday.7864" said: > > > > > > > I would like to do WvW a few times a week for a couple of hours to get the **basic** lege armor but I'm being punished way too much for being a low rank... > > > > > > > Would have to play WvW all week to finish Diamond while a high rank can prolly do it in a day or two. That's too much of a disparity. > > > > > > > Sure, WvW is fun for a change of pace but even after hours of playing I didn't feel like I made any progress towards my goal. That's a bit too frustrating so except for gift of battle I gave up on the game mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > I got the legendary wvw ring within a month - month a half the most and my level is at the low 200 level in wvw. So I only get + 1 added pip. You only need 3 days of wvw. 1 full day + 2 days of just going right before reset. However as much as people don’t say it. Always go for out numbered to get pips faster. Your talking 12 pips vs 6 pips. Which is much better. And if it is outnumbered don’t tell anyone. That way all you do is kill sentrys. Or little camps. If you die owell. Go for sentrys and repeat till outnumbered is gone. But don’t say you need a high level to get all you need to finish diamond in one day. That’s people with like lvl 1000-2000. Which you can get a legendary armor set way before that. > > > > > > > > > > Outnumbered is something I can see only in the morning when I'm at work. > > > > > In theory it sounds amazing, irl it's useless unless you're a kid on vacation. > > > > > > > > I’ve seen it available at all hours of the day. You just need to continually be hopping maps and checking the buffs of others to see if it’s available. > > > > > > This is not true, that buffs accessibility will vary with your server and population up-time > > > > > > > I’m on BG which is a T1 server and one people argue that is over stacked. If I have seen the buff available at any hour then surely it can be on other servers. It all depends on how many players are on a map from your server versus all of the others. I also want to clarify that I don’t mean that it will always be available 100% of the time. I was just disputing the claim that it was **only** available in the morning. > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Doctor.1384" said: > > > > > The wvw and pvp versions should at least have unique skins, and I dont see how any player wouldnt want this. > > > > > > > > No. The trade off for sPvP and WvW having legendary armor was that they would not have skins specific to the legendary armor itself. The ascended armor sets used as the precursors are unique enough. > > > > > > Most people that don't raid would disagree. Since the skins are the same as the ascended precursors the item doesn't indicate the same prestige as its pve counterpart. > > > > The prestige is that it let’s them change stats and eventually equip across all of their characters that can use it. > > I can't even join some maps cuz they're full when I'm able to play and you're telling me there is surely an outnumbered buff somewhere... > Guess all I can do is agree with a sarcastic > #YES Please read the entirety of my posts. I did not say that there would be a buff 100% of the time. The claim was that the buff would only be available in the morning which I disputed as I have been able to get the buff at all hours. This was over the course of several months when farming for a legendary armor set as well as the ring. I'm also on a T1 server that players have argued to be the most overstacked and yet I was able to find that buff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > It’s not about whether people are questioning the time but them ignoring it completely. Getting armor through raids is quicker only if they’re already an established raider. Someone brand new is not going to immediately be off doing full clears. > Someone new to WvW is not going to hit diamond every week either, unless they'll spend like 5-6 hours a day for the whole week on it (which players new to mode aren't going to do - and definitely not for half a year). TBH, new players are not likely to get mithril either, and many won't even get to platinium. > Have you done the math to see how long it would take? I only ask because your statement of 5-6 hours for the entire week greatly exaggerates how long. I can complete the skirmish track within 9-13 hours depending on how much effort I take to locate a map that has the outnumbered buff and whether there is one at the time. I only get +2 pips with my rank. > Those bonus pips from high WvW levels are very impactful here, and it takes a lot of time and dedication to earn those levels. Much more time than is needed to learn raiding at a level giving satisfactory LI gains. > They are impactful but not needed. > > They’re going to have to spend time learning the mechanics for all of the fights as well as their rotation(s). This learning phase makes it take much longer to obtain legendary armor than from the other modes. > So, in your estimation, how long is the learning phase usually until someone can hit, say, half of total available weekly LIs? > It depends on the player's ability to learn the mechanics well enough to consistently clear the encounter. It also depends on the the rest of their team. If they have a team that consists of the same players then it's take less time. If they're with players that continuously changes then it'll take longer. This is one of the benefits of having a static group but it's not something that I would think the majority of new players would have right off the bat. Typically they'd joining a training group where they spend a few hours on a boss. They may clear it or it may take several training sessions. Beating a boss that first time doesn't guarantee that you're now experienced enough to consistently beat it. The time you spend can quickly add up and even more so when you account for every raid boss. For simplicity, if you spend 5 hours training training for 20 raid bosses each, that quickly becomes 100 hours training. The lack of experience also translates to longer raid clear times as well. You're going to be slower. You're going to be prone to having more failures. Players also do not have unlimited playable hours so training for all of the bosses can take weeks. I know this isn't a direct response to your question but it's too variable and I can only pull from my own experience when I first started raids (10 hours at VG with only 1 kill) and what I hear that others take. I believe the reason that I brought up this training because the OP and other were simply ignoring, or downplaying, the impact on a new player obtaining their first legendary armor. It also didn't help that they were going off the impression that a new player would be doing full clears and would have clear times that experienced groups would be obtaining. > Personally, by the point i've managed to obtain one wvw legendary armor set, i've already had LI for 3 envoy sets. In that time i played wvw more than i raided. Yes, this does include the time put into training, which, for my group, was very, very long - it took us over 2 months just to kill VG for the first time. Notice, though, that, according to most of the forum raiders (including those that participate in this thread), times that long were an outlier, not a norm. There are raiders here claiming, that it takes mere few hours to learn one boss, so that needs to be taken into consideration - i have probably used way more time for training than average. > I believe I addressed this part of your post above. > For me, raids were still a much easier and much faster path than WvW. The sheer amount of time needed for a WvW set puts it well out of reach for most players that are not heavily dedicated WvWers. > Yes, players have limited hours and may not be able to commit enough time to complete an entire skirmish track which would make the WvW route take longer than the minimum. Those same players would also experience the same thing with raids. If they can only spend a few hours a day, a couple days a week, than both the training and clearing the raids will take much longer before they have enough LI. I also want to include this, but since I'm not sure where to put it, I'll just add it to the end. There will be some disparity between how long it takes to do WvW and how long it takes to do raids. WvW requires little to no personal skill/experience, nor your full attention, while raids do. The entire time that I did WvW for the ring was with me escorting a yak every 5 min, claiming a camp every 10 min, or trying to repair a something during its defend event. Any time that I was doing any of these, I was "semi-AFK" doing something on another monitor.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > It’s not about whether people are questioning the time but them ignoring it completely. Getting armor through raids is quicker only if they’re already an established raider. Someone brand new is not going to immediately be off doing full clears. > Someone new to WvW is not going to hit diamond every week either, unless they'll spend like 5-6 hours a day for the whole week on it (which players new to mode aren't going to do - and definitely not for half a year). TBH, new players are not likely to get mithril either, and many won't even get to platinium. > At 1450 pips total needed, 12 ticks per hour (1 tick every 5 minutes), a new player on the losing server with no additional pips would gain 3 pips per tick. That's a total of 40 hours for Diamond. At wood chest the week before, he'd be at 4 pips per tick (3+1 from wood), which reduces the amount to 30 hours for Diamond per week. At mid or top tier server, his base pips would be 4 or 5 respectively, further reducing the required hours to 24 hours (4+1 pips) and 20 hours (5+1 pips). A player of WvW rank Bronze (150 - 619) gets an additional pip, which further reduces the time needed to 17 hours (5+1+1). A player who makes occasional use of the outnumbered bonus, gains 5 pips on top of any other pips, which for simplicity sake HALVES the required hours (at 10 pips total, it's around 12 hours). Sorry, but while it might sound nice an sensational to claim that WvW takes ages. Simple math shows this not to be true. Even less once players actually do play the game mode and rank up. The benefit here: as a player spends more time in the game mode, he actually reduces the time he needs to get the rewards. Similar in how more experience in PvE will make one able to be part of faster groups. The main difference: the pip gain increase is hardwired into the account and rank and the return is guaranteed, unlike in PvE where a failure state will remain. > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > Those bonus pips from high WvW levels are very impactful here, and it takes a lot of time and dedication to earn those levels. Much more time than is needed to learn raiding at a level giving satisfactory LI gains. That is true, but let's not forget that those bonus pips comes are drastically increasing increments. It's not as though you get a bonus pip every few hundred WvW levels. The time it takes to get +2 pips for example, via hitting Silver (rank 620+) is vastly faster than getting the next +2 pips, which come at Platinum (rank 2,545). So while a very very long time WvW player will see some increased speed in completion of his Diamond chest, a new player will get those first few bonus pips faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friday.7864 Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Friday.7864" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Doctor.1384" said: > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > @"Friday.7864" said: > > > > > > > @"blambidy.3216" said: > > > > > > > > @"Friday.7864" said: > > > > > > > > I would like to do WvW a few times a week for a couple of hours to get the **basic** lege armor but I'm being punished way too much for being a low rank... > > > > > > > > Would have to play WvW all week to finish Diamond while a high rank can prolly do it in a day or two. That's too much of a disparity. > > > > > > > > Sure, WvW is fun for a change of pace but even after hours of playing I didn't feel like I made any progress towards my goal. That's a bit too frustrating so except for gift of battle I gave up on the game mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I got the legendary wvw ring within a month - month a half the most and my level is at the low 200 level in wvw. So I only get + 1 added pip. You only need 3 days of wvw. 1 full day + 2 days of just going right before reset. However as much as people don’t say it. Always go for out numbered to get pips faster. Your talking 12 pips vs 6 pips. Which is much better. And if it is outnumbered don’t tell anyone. That way all you do is kill sentrys. Or little camps. If you die owell. Go for sentrys and repeat till outnumbered is gone. But don’t say you need a high level to get all you need to finish diamond in one day. That’s people with like lvl 1000-2000. Which you can get a legendary armor set way before that. > > > > > > > > > > > > Outnumbered is something I can see only in the morning when I'm at work. > > > > > > In theory it sounds amazing, irl it's useless unless you're a kid on vacation. > > > > > > > > > > I’ve seen it available at all hours of the day. You just need to continually be hopping maps and checking the buffs of others to see if it’s available. > > > > > > > > This is not true, that buffs accessibility will vary with your server and population up-time > > > > > > > > > > I’m on BG which is a T1 server and one people argue that is over stacked. If I have seen the buff available at any hour then surely it can be on other servers. It all depends on how many players are on a map from your server versus all of the others. I also want to clarify that I don’t mean that it will always be available 100% of the time. I was just disputing the claim that it was **only** available in the morning. > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > @"Doctor.1384" said: > > > > > > The wvw and pvp versions should at least have unique skins, and I dont see how any player wouldnt want this. > > > > > > > > > > No. The trade off for sPvP and WvW having legendary armor was that they would not have skins specific to the legendary armor itself. The ascended armor sets used as the precursors are unique enough. > > > > > > > > Most people that don't raid would disagree. Since the skins are the same as the ascended precursors the item doesn't indicate the same prestige as its pve counterpart. > > > > > > The prestige is that it let’s them change stats and eventually equip across all of their characters that can use it. > > > > I can't even join some maps cuz they're full when I'm able to play and you're telling me there is surely an outnumbered buff somewhere... > > Guess all I can do is agree with a sarcastic > > #YES > > Please read the entirety of my posts. I did not say that there would be a buff 100% of the time. The claim was that the buff would only be available in the morning which I disputed as I have been able to get the buff at all hours. This was over the course of several months when farming for a legendary armor set as well as the ring. I'm also on a T1 server that players have argued to be the most overstacked and yet I was able to find that buff. Yes, and I keep telling you that the buff is, to working adults, a completely useless and UNRELIABLE way to boost pips, even if it does pop up for a few minutes in the evening here and there... It's a rare exception, not the norm, and I won't let anyone portray it as something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 > @"Friday.7864" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Friday.7864" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Doctor.1384" said: > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > @"Friday.7864" said: > > > > > > > > @"blambidy.3216" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Friday.7864" said: > > > > > > > > > I would like to do WvW a few times a week for a couple of hours to get the **basic** lege armor but I'm being punished way too much for being a low rank... > > > > > > > > > Would have to play WvW all week to finish Diamond while a high rank can prolly do it in a day or two. That's too much of a disparity. > > > > > > > > > Sure, WvW is fun for a change of pace but even after hours of playing I didn't feel like I made any progress towards my goal. That's a bit too frustrating so except for gift of battle I gave up on the game mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I got the legendary wvw ring within a month - month a half the most and my level is at the low 200 level in wvw. So I only get + 1 added pip. You only need 3 days of wvw. 1 full day + 2 days of just going right before reset. However as much as people don’t say it. Always go for out numbered to get pips faster. Your talking 12 pips vs 6 pips. Which is much better. And if it is outnumbered don’t tell anyone. That way all you do is kill sentrys. Or little camps. If you die owell. Go for sentrys and repeat till outnumbered is gone. But don’t say you need a high level to get all you need to finish diamond in one day. That’s people with like lvl 1000-2000. Which you can get a legendary armor set way before that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Outnumbered is something I can see only in the morning when I'm at work. > > > > > > > In theory it sounds amazing, irl it's useless unless you're a kid on vacation. > > > > > > > > > > > > I’ve seen it available at all hours of the day. You just need to continually be hopping maps and checking the buffs of others to see if it’s available. > > > > > > > > > > This is not true, that buffs accessibility will vary with your server and population up-time > > > > > > > > > > > > > I’m on BG which is a T1 server and one people argue that is over stacked. If I have seen the buff available at any hour then surely it can be on other servers. It all depends on how many players are on a map from your server versus all of the others. I also want to clarify that I don’t mean that it will always be available 100% of the time. I was just disputing the claim that it was **only** available in the morning. > > > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > @"Doctor.1384" said: > > > > > > > The wvw and pvp versions should at least have unique skins, and I dont see how any player wouldnt want this. > > > > > > > > > > > > No. The trade off for sPvP and WvW having legendary armor was that they would not have skins specific to the legendary armor itself. The ascended armor sets used as the precursors are unique enough. > > > > > > > > > > Most people that don't raid would disagree. Since the skins are the same as the ascended precursors the item doesn't indicate the same prestige as its pve counterpart. > > > > > > > > The prestige is that it let’s them change stats and eventually equip across all of their characters that can use it. > > > > > > I can't even join some maps cuz they're full when I'm able to play and you're telling me there is surely an outnumbered buff somewhere... > > > Guess all I can do is agree with a sarcastic > > > #YES > > > > Please read the entirety of my posts. I did not say that there would be a buff 100% of the time. The claim was that the buff would only be available in the morning which I disputed as I have been able to get the buff at all hours. This was over the course of several months when farming for a legendary armor set as well as the ring. I'm also on a T1 server that players have argued to be the most overstacked and yet I was able to find that buff. > > Yes, and I keep telling you that the buff is, to working adults, a completely useless and UNRELIABLE way to boost pips, even if it does pop up for a few minutes in the evening here and there... It's a rare exception, not the norm, and I won't let anyone portray it as something else. > Transfer to an empty Tier 5 server (WSR would be a prime target on EU currently). You'll have the buff pretty much non stop, and since WvW servers only matter to players who want to WvW, as a PvE player who simply wants to get his armor asap, it won't matter which server you are on. Even better, transfering to a low pop server costs 500 gems. If this is about getting access to outnumber constantly, there are ways to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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