Dagger storm is joke when comparing to tornado - buff ideas.

[zarcon.7820]

> @"zarcon.7820" said:

> > @"Babylon.8972" said:

> > > @"zarcon.7820" said:

> > > All thiefs elite skills are super bad

> >

> > Every other class have even 1 decent useful elite, but thief have 0. Just joke tier elites. I would pay a lot to swap my elites with engineer.

>

> Here is what I would like to see to balance thief out with other classes.

>

> 1: tripple the BLIND pulsing on BLINDING POWDER as it was yeaRs ago. Literally every class has gained aoe in the recent years. It is inpossible for thief to compete with this now. They get killed to easily.

>

> 2: Make DJ on DEADEYE unblockable. There is more reflection then ever.

>

> 3: Steal is okay. However I think mug should be made baseline.

>

> 4: Remove the cooldown of backstab. Its stupid and I have no clue why this is in the first place also dmg is garbage. But this is due to the bunker meta were stuck in for years.

>

> 5: Remove the binding at the start of heartseeker. Rn it locks you from movement. It feels buggy.

>

> 6: Make basilisk venom and heal venom instant. So it goes in par with the other venoms.

>

> Anything I missed?

 

I did miss something

 

Was playing dp. I tried to finish of a holo. He ran away while swinging his sword poof poof 3k per hit. There I was hitting 200-300 aa.

What i mean by this thiefs aa dmg is pathetic. Thiefs got no chasing potential at all. FACT

Thief chases a target and ends up wasting all defensive utilitys failing to finish of the the target.

Rangers too HAHAHA pets do more dmg then thief.

[zarcon.7820]

The only thief spec with reasonable dmg is deadeye. Dp is garbage and. A run around bot. With zero chasing potential. Also even deadeye i find in a trash position because of all the aoe and reflections and shit. Theres no counter to bunkers in this game

[wevh.2903]

> @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > @"wevh.2903" said:

> > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said:

> > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > Imagine thinking tornado is weak...... huh lol

> > >

> > > The heck you smoking, Tornado is the weakest of all transform skills in the entire game.

> > > Comparing Dagger Storm to Tornado is another joke.

> > > Tornado have VERY limited uses and 99% of times(wow, you prevent stomp/ress sometimes if lucky, O M G SUCH BROKEN SKILL) is completely useless like most of eles elite skills.

> > > Dagger Storm is another "oh kitten" skill for teef that grants long evasion, which can only be counter by like 7 skills in the entire game. What you want more? Combo it with Basilisk Venom so it'll stun anything the dagger hits for 10min?

> > > Imagine asking for powercreep buffs for a skill that actually should get nerfs.

> >

> > Imagine thinking preventing a ress is not a important thing , ele tornado had low cd and lot of utility

>

> Even a simple chocking gas can do that....or a chaotic release...or a rampage....a gravity well.....a thunderclap....a "chilled to the bones"...an elite that is as good as an weapon skill without further benefits....it's not a good elite

 

 

Choking gas spent like all thief iniciative , it is a very good skill cuz it is imblockeable , chaotic release only stuns at the first not like in the past when it used to pulse dazes every tic . This both skills has big utility but there is a big difference between this both skills and tornado.

 

Tornado moves the downed, this can prevent rev skills or stuff like throw ress elixir or necro rezz well . It also pulses UNBLOKEABLE knockback (not a simple daze) every 3s. All the other skills u mention r elites but they all dont pulse cc and moves the target.

 

U can fast break stun and still rezzing but with tornado u cant. There is not big access to stab anymore or skills that share stab like guard on the past metas(since guard is completely out of meta and stab has beem nerfed im all wayd possible)

 

And on the top of all tornado has a fairly small cd (it is okay im not asking for a nerf) .Tornado has lot of utility . It is the perfect skill for a both suport spec and lighting rod builds . U can prevent rezz , decap points , stun lock ppl and break their blocks , preventing a focus over a teammate ccing .

 

 

[Master Ketsu.4569]

This thread is an example of blaming the wrong thing in a build, and asking for the wrong solution.

 

Daggerstorm is already viable, why buff it? Tempest is overperforming because of the double shock aura that lets the entire team just run at people for free.

 

Asking for a buff to an already good skill, because of another skill that isn't even the reason why the spec that uses it is meta. Omegalul.

[Shiyo.3578]

> @"zarcon.7820" said:

> The only thief spec with reasonable dmg is deadeye. Dp is garbage and. A run around bot. With zero chasing potential. Also even deadeye i find in a trash position because of all the aoe and reflections and kitten. Theres no counter to bunkers in this game

 

D/p Daredevils can burst 10k+ per steal and remove boons + daze while bursting.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > If anything dagger storm should get nerfed to remove the stupid RNG projectiles. The melee damage on top of the reflection and evade is already enough to make it an extremely excellent elite skill.

> > > >

> > > > It doesnt have melee damage. Its damage exclusively comes from the daggers.

> > >

> > > It should just be a point blank AoE. It's stupid that the 3 second evade will randomly hit you and cripple you from 900 units with some of the least visible projectiles in the entire game.

> >

> > It would have to have its damage buffed up pretty significantly to compensate then. Not that I disagree that the skill is quite unreadable.

>

> It doesn't need buffs. It's already plenty strong as a 3 second evade with projectile reflection with decent easy damage to boot.

 

If you remove the "decent easy damage", it would need a buff. 3 second evade with projectile reflection is decent, but not 90 second elite decent.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > @"zarcon.7820" said:

> > The only thief spec with reasonable dmg is deadeye. Dp is garbage and. A run around bot. With zero chasing potential. Also even deadeye i find in a trash position because of all the aoe and reflections and kitten. Theres no counter to bunkers in this game

>

> D/p Daredevils can burst 10k+ per steal and remove boons + daze while bursting.

 

Youre a few months out of date. Or years even. D/P Daredevil doesnt burst anywhere *close* to 10k. It bursts around 4k-5k.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > @"zarcon.7820" said:

> > > The only thief spec with reasonable dmg is deadeye. Dp is garbage and. A run around bot. With zero chasing potential. Also even deadeye i find in a trash position because of all the aoe and reflections and kitten. Theres no counter to bunkers in this game

> >

> > D/p Daredevils can burst 10k+ per steal and remove boons + daze while bursting.

>

> Youre a few months out of date. Or years even. D/P Daredevil doesnt burst anywhere *close* to 10k. It bursts around 4k-5k.

 

I've gotten 8.5k in wvw lol but yeah even on full zerk and CS dp hits for 5kish, if ur core u can add mug but man stars would have to align with out sourced boons etc to hit 10k backstab in conquest.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > @"zarcon.7820" said:

> > > > The only thief spec with reasonable dmg is deadeye. Dp is garbage and. A run around bot. With zero chasing potential. Also even deadeye i find in a trash position because of all the aoe and reflections and kitten. Theres no counter to bunkers in this game

> > >

> > > D/p Daredevils can burst 10k+ per steal and remove boons + daze while bursting.

> >

> > Youre a few months out of date. Or years even. D/P Daredevil doesnt burst anywhere *close* to 10k. It bursts around 4k-5k.

>

> I've gotten 8.5k in wvw lol but yeah even on full zerk and CS dp hits for 5kish, if ur core u can add mug but man stars would have to align with out sourced boons etc to hit 10k backstab in conquest.

 

I have been hit for upwards of 6k from cloak and dagger in 1v1, lacer/cluster/cod/shadowshot they all hit hard, backstab is ~~6-7k dmg, on the clown venom builds.

then you add in ~2 auto hits, venom procs and you have your 10k dmg.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > > @"zarcon.7820" said:

> > > > > The only thief spec with reasonable dmg is deadeye. Dp is garbage and. A run around bot. With zero chasing potential. Also even deadeye i find in a trash position because of all the aoe and reflections and kitten. Theres no counter to bunkers in this game

> > > >

> > > > D/p Daredevils can burst 10k+ per steal and remove boons + daze while bursting.

> > >

> > > Youre a few months out of date. Or years even. D/P Daredevil doesnt burst anywhere *close* to 10k. It bursts around 4k-5k.

> >

> > I've gotten 8.5k in wvw lol but yeah even on full zerk and CS dp hits for 5kish, if ur core u can add mug but man stars would have to align with out sourced boons etc to hit 10k backstab in conquest.

>

> I have been hit for upwards of 6k from cloak and dagger in 1v1, lacer/cluster/cod/shadowshot they all hit hard, backstab is ~~6-7k dmg, on the clown venom builds.

> then you add in ~2 auto hits, venom procs and you have your 10k dmg.

 

For one any class even tanks can get 10k over 4 hits and yes I've gotten 5k HS as well but I've been hit for 5+k singulair skills by almost every class so not sure what point ur making here, especially since I was talking backstab and also was regarding one skill not the total of many. I've been hit for 16-18k outa stealth a few times by mesmers so.... theirs burst is definitely not in top bracket these days and nor is daggeratorm in need of changes, it's fine as is, not underpowered or overpowered.

[KrHome.1920]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > > > @"zarcon.7820" said:

> > > > > > The only thief spec with reasonable dmg is deadeye. Dp is garbage and. A run around bot. With zero chasing potential. Also even deadeye i find in a trash position because of all the aoe and reflections and kitten. Theres no counter to bunkers in this game

> > > > >

> > > > > D/p Daredevils can burst 10k+ per steal and remove boons + daze while bursting.

> > > >

> > > > Youre a few months out of date. Or years even. D/P Daredevil doesnt burst anywhere *close* to 10k. It bursts around 4k-5k.

> > >

> > > I've gotten 8.5k in wvw lol but yeah even on full zerk and CS dp hits for 5kish, if ur core u can add mug but man stars would have to align with out sourced boons etc to hit 10k backstab in conquest.

> >

> > I have been hit for upwards of 6k from cloak and dagger in 1v1, lacer/cluster/cod/shadowshot they all hit hard, backstab is ~~6-7k dmg, on the clown venom builds.

> > then you add in ~2 auto hits, venom procs and you have your 10k dmg.

>

> For one any class even tanks can get 10k over 4 hits and yes I've gotten 5k HS as well but I've been hit for 5+k singulair skills by almost every class so not sure what point ur making here, especially since I was talking backstab and also was regarding one skill not the total of many. I've been hit for 16-18k outa stealth a few times by mesmers so.... theirs burst is definitely not in top bracket these days and nor is daggeratorm in need of changes, it's fine as is, not underpowered or overpowered.

D/P is a utility weaponset that has the most utilities you can find on any weapon in the game. And shadow shot has dodged the 33% nerf and kept its modifier. On base armor targets you just spam shadow shots and kill with 4 hits that blind.

 

Self stealth without a cooldown and without a target needed, spamable interrupt, spamable blind, spamable unblockable gap closer. Use your utility or use another weapon, that can deal more damage (you have at least two that can).

 

And please don't start an initiative discussion at this point! Use roll for initiative if you want to add more spam.

 

@ Dagger Storm / Tornado comparison

I though this was a trollpost? The other threads the OP posted at the same time created that impression.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > > > @"zarcon.7820" said:

> > > > > > The only thief spec with reasonable dmg is deadeye. Dp is garbage and. A run around bot. With zero chasing potential. Also even deadeye i find in a trash position because of all the aoe and reflections and kitten. Theres no counter to bunkers in this game

> > > > >

> > > > > D/p Daredevils can burst 10k+ per steal and remove boons + daze while bursting.

> > > >

> > > > Youre a few months out of date. Or years even. D/P Daredevil doesnt burst anywhere *close* to 10k. It bursts around 4k-5k.

> > >

> > > I've gotten 8.5k in wvw lol but yeah even on full zerk and CS dp hits for 5kish, if ur core u can add mug but man stars would have to align with out sourced boons etc to hit 10k backstab in conquest.

> >

> > I have been hit for upwards of 6k from cloak and dagger in 1v1, lacer/cluster/cod/shadowshot they all hit hard, backstab is ~~6-7k dmg, on the clown venom builds.

> > then you add in ~2 auto hits, venom procs and you have your 10k dmg.

>

> For one any class even tanks can get 10k over 4 hits and yes I've gotten 5k HS as well but I've been hit for 5+k singulair skills by almost every class so not sure what point ur making here, especially since I was talking backstab and also was regarding one skill not the total of many. I've been hit for 16-18k outa stealth a few times by mesmers so.... theirs burst is definitely not in top bracket these days and nor is daggeratorm in need of changes, it's fine as is, not underpowered or overpowered.

 

Its just that people whine on thief dmg being low, all the while they take 3 utility traitlines and still land 5-6k+ hits

[Khalisto.5780]

Play core ele and core thief see for yourself what is a joke

[Shiyo.3578]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > @"zarcon.7820" said:

> > > The only thief spec with reasonable dmg is deadeye. Dp is garbage and. A run around bot. With zero chasing potential. Also even deadeye i find in a trash position because of all the aoe and reflections and kitten. Theres no counter to bunkers in this game

> >

> > D/p Daredevils can burst 10k+ per steal and remove boons + daze while bursting.

>

> Youre a few months out of date. Or years even. D/P Daredevil doesnt burst anywhere *close* to 10k. It bursts around 4k-5k.

 

Yes it does, I play the class as it's my main. D/P and thief damage in general is out of control. The class has too much damage, mobility, pressure. CC, and stealth. Having a thief on you guarantees you will die no matter what, much like holo and power rev.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > @"zarcon.7820" said:

> > > > The only thief spec with reasonable dmg is deadeye. Dp is garbage and. A run around bot. With zero chasing potential. Also even deadeye i find in a trash position because of all the aoe and reflections and kitten. Theres no counter to bunkers in this game

> > >

> > > D/p Daredevils can burst 10k+ per steal and remove boons + daze while bursting.

> >

> > Youre a few months out of date. Or years even. D/P Daredevil doesnt burst anywhere *close* to 10k. It bursts around 4k-5k.

>

> Yes it does, I play the class as it's my main. D/P and thief damage in general is out of control. The class has too much damage, mobility, pressure. CC, and stealth. Having a thief on you guarantees you will die no matter what, much like holo and power rev.

 

No it doesnt, and you dont. Lets take a look at an example, yes? [This](

) part of an MAT VoD by Sindrener. He attacks thief. The squishiest class in the game. So, how hard does he hit? 10k? *11k*? .... 5k. 4600 from backstab, 380 from shadow siphoning and 199 from venom. Pretty far from 10k isnt it? Now imagine if his target wasnt a thief, and wasnt as squishy. It would look even worse.

[Shiyo.3578]

5k is enough to instantly kill or win a fight in a +1(Which is why your sidenoder needs to be uber tanky btw thief dictates sidenode meta too) and pressure someone enough to kite away in team fights, especially when combined with boon steal and daze(es) and aoe basi.

 

5k burst with thiefs mobility, from stealth, while taking three UTILITY trait lines is far too much.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > > @"zarcon.7820" said:

> > > > > The only thief spec with reasonable dmg is deadeye. Dp is garbage and. A run around bot. With zero chasing potential. Also even deadeye i find in a trash position because of all the aoe and reflections and kitten. Theres no counter to bunkers in this game

> > > >

> > > > D/p Daredevils can burst 10k+ per steal and remove boons + daze while bursting.

> > >

> > > Youre a few months out of date. Or years even. D/P Daredevil doesnt burst anywhere *close* to 10k. It bursts around 4k-5k.

> >

> > I've gotten 8.5k in wvw lol but yeah even on full zerk and CS dp hits for 5kish, if ur core u can add mug but man stars would have to align with out sourced boons etc to hit 10k backstab in conquest.

>

> I have been hit for upwards of 6k from cloak and dagger in 1v1, lacer/cluster/cod/shadowshot they all hit hard, backstab is ~~6-7k dmg, on the clown venom builds.

> then you add in ~2 auto hits, venom procs and you have your 10k dmg.

 

In WvW, yes? Because in PvP, unless you were running around with 25 stacks of vulnerability, cloak and dagger will never have hit anywhere close to 6k. As you can see below, when used on the most squishy target, Backstab hits for about 4.6k (not 6k let alone 7k like you are trying to act like it does). Cloak and dagger would hit for 3.2k with that. So, what, did you legitimately get hit with a big stack of vulnerability and thought that was the normal damage? Oh and if you want to add auto hits, thats about 1k extra. Even with that (which I wouldnt count as part of the burst but hey), you get a 6k burst, not 10k.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > > > > @"zarcon.7820" said:

> > > > > > > The only thief spec with reasonable dmg is deadeye. Dp is garbage and. A run around bot. With zero chasing potential. Also even deadeye i find in a trash position because of all the aoe and reflections and kitten. Theres no counter to bunkers in this game

> > > > > >

> > > > > > D/p Daredevils can burst 10k+ per steal and remove boons + daze while bursting.

> > > > >

> > > > > Youre a few months out of date. Or years even. D/P Daredevil doesnt burst anywhere *close* to 10k. It bursts around 4k-5k.

> > > >

> > > > I've gotten 8.5k in wvw lol but yeah even on full zerk and CS dp hits for 5kish, if ur core u can add mug but man stars would have to align with out sourced boons etc to hit 10k backstab in conquest.

> > >

> > > I have been hit for upwards of 6k from cloak and dagger in 1v1, lacer/cluster/cod/shadowshot they all hit hard, backstab is ~~6-7k dmg, on the clown venom builds.

> > > then you add in ~2 auto hits, venom procs and you have your 10k dmg.

> >

> > For one any class even tanks can get 10k over 4 hits and yes I've gotten 5k HS as well but I've been hit for 5+k singulair skills by almost every class so not sure what point ur making here, especially since I was talking backstab and also was regarding one skill not the total of many. I've been hit for 16-18k outa stealth a few times by mesmers so.... theirs burst is definitely not in top bracket these days and nor is daggeratorm in need of changes, it's fine as is, not underpowered or overpowered.

>

> Its just that people whine on thief dmg being low, all the while they take 3 utility traitlines and still land 5-6k+ hits

 

First of all, the hardest hitting skill is backstab at 4.6k or less. 6k on one hit doesnt happen. Second, Daredevil, Trickery and SA are all damage traitlines. Most damage traitlines have some utility. Were not talking acrobatics here.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> 5k is enough to instantly kill or win a fight in a +1(Which is why your sidenoder needs to be uber tanky btw thief dictates sidenode meta too) and pressure someone enough to kite away in team fights, especially when combined with boon steal and daze(es) and aoe basi.

>

 

In no world does 5k instantly kill. Can it win a fight in +1? Yeah. Because *anything* wins a fight in +1. Youre deluding yourself if you think any other class wouldnt win just as well. And you also delude yourself if you think thief dictates the sidenote meta. They dont. They never have. Its quite the opposite even. The sidenote meta dictates *thief* builds. And its not nearly enough to pressure anyone in teamfights, thats why you dont go for it. You mostly just spam stuff off of shortbow, to turn lets say a 3v3 into a 3.25v3.

 

> 5k burst with thiefs mobility, from stealth, while taking three UTILITY trait lines is far too much.

 

Trickery, Daredevil and now even SA are all *DAMAGE* Traitlines. All damage traitlines have some utility. Even Critical Strikes. And no, it isnt. But let me ask you this. What number do you, as a non-thief player, want it to be at? 1k? 500? *0*? Because its already ridiculously low, thief is pretty much saved by its mobility, as otherwise it would be entirely unplayable.

[Shiyo.3578]

Fixing thiefs dominance in pvp/wvw(small scale) is more complicated than damage numbers.

 

* Swipe is no longer unblockable

_Unblockable daze makes thief too powerful at pressuring and securing kills in a post-feb patch meta_

* Hide in shadows stealth reduced to 2s

* Hidden thief duration reduced to 1 second

* Concealing restoration reduced to 0 seconds

* Stealth no longer stacks duration(Works like super speed)

_Stealth is too strong and has too high of uptime_

* Shadowstep return no longer breaks stun

_Thief is too hard to secure kills on and lock down. You can also use shadowstep offensively with 0 risk which is bad and makes it too easy to engage/+1. All reward, no risk._

* Dash no longer gives swiftness

_Thief has too much mobility with dash. If you want perma swiftness, you should have to take acrobatics - daredevil invalidates an entire trait line and is bloated_

* Speed runes redesigned to give 4s of 99% move speed when you gain swiftness on a 20s ICD

_Everyone who can utilize this rune has too much mobility_

* Marauders resillience no longer gives vitality

_You can use berserker amulet and still have 15k hp, which means thief gets +25% damage by taking daredevil. Too powerful, and makes daredevil give too much damage for a single trait line while also invalidating any non-daredevil builds for thief thus lowering thief build diversity._

* ALL stolen attacks damage reduced by 25%

_All steal attacks do far too much damage and are your main source of damage and burst, especially if you take improv._

* Plasma no longer gives alacrity, stability, or quickness. All other boons duration reduced by half.

_This is just obscene. It makes mesmer a liability to have on your team on top of making mesmer vs thief completely one sided._

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"UNOwen.7132"

 

Let us see, hmmmmm

 

 

https://imgur.com/Z97N1q4

https://imgur.com/iip2bMF

https://imgur.com/h3NIVZ2

https://imgur.com/blsfeAg

https://imgur.com/zkCGJrg

By looking through this I realized that as a mesmer dodging/avoiding backstab does jack shit as thief counters you so fucking hard that you will die anyways.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > > @"zarcon.7820" said:

> > > > > The only thief spec with reasonable dmg is deadeye. Dp is garbage and. A run around bot. With zero chasing potential. Also even deadeye i find in a trash position because of all the aoe and reflections and kitten. Theres no counter to bunkers in this game

> > > >

> > > > D/p Daredevils can burst 10k+ per steal and remove boons + daze while bursting.

> > >

> > > Youre a few months out of date. Or years even. D/P Daredevil doesnt burst anywhere *close* to 10k. It bursts around 4k-5k.

> >

> > Yes it does, I play the class as it's my main. D/P and thief damage in general is out of control. The class has too much damage, mobility, pressure. CC, and stealth. Having a thief on you guarantees you will die no matter what, much like holo and power rev.

>

> No it doesnt, and you dont. Lets take a look at an example, yes? [This](

) part of an MAT VoD by Sindrener. He attacks thief. The squishiest class in the game. So, how hard does he hit? 10k? *11k*? .... 5k. 4600 from backstab, 380 from shadow siphoning and 199 from venom. Pretty far from 10k isnt it? Now imagine if his target wasnt a thief, and wasnt as squishy. It would look even worse.

 

good find, it shows that he teleported 2k units from stealth to land a 4,6k stab, with ~500 siphon hit, followed by 3 autos, that did 500 + 500 +2k dmg before thief managed to dodge away from him. That is 8-9k dmg

To add to that he runs full utility thief build, with 3 utility traitlines, and 0 damaging utilities, to top it off he did it out of combat so no lead attacks :D

He also attacked after weak-strikes ran out so he lost 7% dmg bonus for hits after backstab

[Bazsi.2734]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> Fixing thiefs dominance in pvp/wvw(small scale) is more complicated than damage numbers.

 

> * Concealing restoration reduced to 0 seconds

> * Dash no longer gives swiftness

 

Your suggestions are such memes... Maybe we could have an april 1st patch with this design philosophy. Skills blocking attacks for 0 seconds, traits that convert concentration and expertise, mirage losing another dodge, some thief skills costing 15 initative etc... no idea about the rest, but I'm sure you could come up with something.

I legit thought that 0 second duration on Concealing Restoration was a typo in the other thread. Guess I was wrong.

 

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> @"UNOwen.7132"

>

> Let us see, hmmmmm

>

>

> https://imgur.com/Z97N1q4

> https://imgur.com/iip2bMF

> https://imgur.com/h3NIVZ2

> https://imgur.com/blsfeAg

> https://imgur.com/zkCGJrg

> By looking through this I realized that as a mesmer dodging/avoiding backstab does jack kitten as thief counters you so kitten hard that you will die anyways.

 

You seem to be running around with 25 vulnerability a lot. Maybe ... *dont* do that? You will find that your survivability improves by a massive amount if you decide to not have 25 stacks of vulnerability on you at all times.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > > > @"zarcon.7820" said:

> > > > > > The only thief spec with reasonable dmg is deadeye. Dp is garbage and. A run around bot. With zero chasing potential. Also even deadeye i find in a trash position because of all the aoe and reflections and kitten. Theres no counter to bunkers in this game

> > > > >

> > > > > D/p Daredevils can burst 10k+ per steal and remove boons + daze while bursting.

> > > >

> > > > Youre a few months out of date. Or years even. D/P Daredevil doesnt burst anywhere *close* to 10k. It bursts around 4k-5k.

> > >

> > > Yes it does, I play the class as it's my main. D/P and thief damage in general is out of control. The class has too much damage, mobility, pressure. CC, and stealth. Having a thief on you guarantees you will die no matter what, much like holo and power rev.

> >

> > No it doesnt, and you dont. Lets take a look at an example, yes? [This](

) part of an MAT VoD by Sindrener. He attacks thief. The squishiest class in the game. So, how hard does he hit? 10k? *11k*? .... 5k. 4600 from backstab, 380 from shadow siphoning and 199 from venom. Pretty far from 10k isnt it? Now imagine if his target wasnt a thief, and wasnt as squishy. It would look even worse.

>

> good find, it shows that he teleported 2k units from stealth to land a 4,6k stab, with ~500 siphon hit, followed by 3 autos, that did 500 + 500 +2k dmg before thief managed to dodge away from him. That is 8-9k dmg

> To add to that he runs full utility thief build, with 3 utility traitlines, and 0 damaging utilities, to top it off he did it out of combat so no lead attacks :D

> He also attacked after weak-strikes ran out so he lost 7% dmg bonus for hits after backstab

 

Looks like its under 1800 units actually, since swipe wasnt max range. And yes, it was 5k burst, followed by autos he was only able to use because the thief had burned through all of his stunbreaks. Obviously the 3 autos do not count towards burst. Its 5k burst. 3 damage traitlines. SA, Trickery and DD are all *damage* traitlines. The fact that they have some utility doesnt change that fact. Critical Strikes has a fair bit of utility. And yes, it was out of combat. Thats how thief bursts. Why are you mentioning it as if its a big gotcha? And Weakening Strike wont affect the backstab, so it wont affect the burst.

 

So, to recap. 5k burst, max. Able to do it from <1800 range if you burn a stunbreak and condi clear (note: A few other classes can do the same kind of thing). Not so dangerous now, is it? And far from 10k. Which isnt surprising, the thief wasnt running around with 25 stacks of vulnerability.