Should dps meters get banned?

[Sinful Mustache.3589]

> @"Hyrai.8720" said:

> For example, said casuals love to descriminate good players because the only explanation how they got so good must be that they have no friends, no family, no real life, etc. /s

 

Once after chill T4 dailies we did lower recommended frac dailies with some newb.

He told us "we are bad and we must git gud" because we do every shortcut and skip trash instead of brave facetanking.

Funny moments. But so far we are not toxic and didnt kick him for being a kittenbag.

Just finish dailies, block him and forget

[Hyrai.8720]

ah yes, the good ol' "you're just skipping mechanics because you're too bad to actually do them"

i love it

[SeikeNz.3526]

> @"Sinful Mustache.3589" said:

> > @"Hyrai.8720" said:

> > For example, said casuals love to descriminate good players because the only explanation how they got so good must be that they have no friends, no family, no real life, etc. /s

>

> Once after chill T4 dailies we did lower recommended frac dailies with some newb.

> He told us "we are bad and we must git gud" because we do every shortcut and skip trash instead of brave facetanking.

> Funny moments. But so far we are not toxic and didnt kick him for being a kittenbag.

> Just finish dailies, block him and forget

 

also don't forget to bring 300g to pay the free golem

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > @"Sinful Mustache.3589" said:

> > > @"Hyrai.8720" said:

> > > For example, said casuals love to descriminate good players because the only explanation how they got so good must be that they have no friends, no family, no real life, etc. /s

> >

> > Once after chill T4 dailies we did lower recommended frac dailies with some newb.

> > He told us "we are bad and we must git gud" because we do every shortcut and skip trash instead of brave facetanking.

> > Funny moments. But so far we are not toxic and didnt kick him for being a kittenbag.

> > Just finish dailies, block him and forget

>

> also don't forget to bring 300g to pay the free golem

 

You don't need to pay 300g to use the golem, it's entirely free

[SeikeNz.3526]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > > @"Sinful Mustache.3589" said:

> > > > @"Hyrai.8720" said:

> > > > For example, said casuals love to descriminate good players because the only explanation how they got so good must be that they have no friends, no family, no real life, etc. /s

> > >

> > > Once after chill T4 dailies we did lower recommended frac dailies with some newb.

> > > He told us "we are bad and we must git gud" because we do every shortcut and skip trash instead of brave facetanking.

> > > Funny moments. But so far we are not toxic and didnt kick him for being a kittenbag.

> > > Just finish dailies, block him and forget

> >

> > also don't forget to bring 300g to pay the free golem

>

> You don't need to pay 300g to use the golem, it's entirely free

 

not for the skip mechanic masters with ultra dps

 

> @"Sinful Mustache.3589" said:

> The only weird thing about dps meters for me is that anet introduced some kind of it with training golem, but you must pay 300g to use it (if you dont have friends to tag up).

> 300g is insane cost for basic feature like training rotations

 

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> not for the mechanic masters

>

> > @"Sinful Mustache.3589" said:

> > The only weird thing about dps meters for me is that anet introduced some kind of it with training golem, but you must pay 300g to use it (if you dont have friends to tag up).

> > 300g is insane cost for basic feature like training rotations

>

>

 

....Then to @both of you, you can create a mentor squad for free and enter the training forces area alone without paying anything. Just press P, create squad, enter the room and check your dps. No need to buy a commander tag to use that feature.

[Sinful Mustache.3589]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> You don't need to pay 300g to use the golem, it's entirely free

 

It is a reference to my mistake earlier in this thread.

When i create a squad to enter training area I get tagged automatically.

So i made an assumption that one needs a tag to get into training are. That appears to be wrong.

So i said "my bad". But this small mistake doesnt change anything in my posts :)

 

Technically i dont know how can i enter training area without a com tag on me (when **no one else** in squad)

[Carcharoth Lucian.1378]

> @"Sinful Mustache.3589" said:

> Technically i dont know how can i enter training area without a com tag on me (when **no one else** in squad)

 

It's just that the ones without tag can still open raid squad and enter the area. If you have the tag, it will display it.

[Dondarrion.2748]

DPS meters are fine. They've been around so long now and there's not that much elitism going around... you just hear the complaints here and take them, like all generalisation, as if EVERYONE immediately acts that way. It's probably the other way around, maybe 4-5% DPS meter users that are arsey about it while the rest just go about their business without being bothered how other people play.

 

> @"aspirine.6852" said:

> If others feel they need to use dps meters to feel good about themselves fine. I dont care about them at all.

 

I use ArcDPS but only to check my own dps against the tested meta/rotations. Unless in a raid party with a DPS requirement, I don't care about the metrics, and I don't care at all about the other people showing up on the meter. It's got nothing to do with feeling fine about my own playstyle.

[Hyrai.8720]

> @"Sinful Mustache.3589" said:

> Technically i dont know how can i enter training area without a com tag on me (when **no one else** in squad)

 

Thats a problem of the squad system. Once you have purchased the commander tag, you can't _not_ tag up when opening a squad.

 

"fun" fact:

you can open a squad, join the training area, then close the squad. you won't be kicked from the instance.

[Halbarz.3854]

> @"TrOtskY.5927" said:

> > @"Halbarz.3854" said:

> > I voted YES, as I do not believe a DPS meter is required to play any of the current content in the game and in its current form are not healthy for the game.

> >

> > I will say this: I would not mind it if I could only see my own damage and if it was built by Anet. This would still give people the option to use it and optimize their build if they cannot figure it out on their own.

> >

> > Anet should with this: Restrict the usage of it, to reflect only your own output!

> > Also the Poll is missing an option, No but should be restricted to personal output only

> >

> >

>

> Posts like this are really an example of total ignorance, and I really mean it, you don't know what you are talking about.

>

> This game has bosses that have very real DPS checks. You NEED damage to deal with this.

>

> Secondly, when running training groups of is extremely important for the leader to be able to pinpoint what is going wrong, and a DPS meter is the only way to know which of the DPS players are pulling their weight

>

> We can then help those with bad DPS with better builds and advice.

>

> If you want to play baby content then sure meters are not needed.

>

> I will never lead a training run without this tool.

 

Um interesting approach "Posts like this are really an example of total ignorance"

 

Is DPS important? Yes, of course, Have I denied that? No

Can you clear all content in the game without a DPS meter? Well, you seem to think it is not possible. :sweat_smile: You can CLEARLY see in a fight when the DPS is lackluster and that without a meter. Wouldn't you agree?

 

If you would have read my whole post you might have noticed that I mentioned that a personal meter is a good middle ground. This still allows you to optimize your build.

 

The whole "I will help people that do not have the required DPS", is something you might tell yourself (and maybe you do) but the majority of players will just kick and that's it. I would strongly advise people to stop using this as an argument, I have seen a lot of people bashing or kicking the DPS in Fractals even for the smallest difference. ... they were also helping I guess?

 

So anyone claiming it is a must, or that they cannot complete content without it ... should ask themselves if the game is the problem or if they are.

DPS meters are a support tool by definition but in reality, they can impact the community if implemented incorrectly. Anet clearly just allowed it without thinking twice.

And now people like yourself are seeing it as a requirement - that is the problem.

 

You are not even willing to consider the fact that it has a negative side or the potential for it. that is clear in your response.

As a training raid leader, you should be the number one person aware of the negatives when a meter is used in groups outside of "training"

 

****so Anet should create one if they want this in their game, they should put up some ground rules, and they should be the ones that say what is shared and what not.

Not some third party tool. If Anet controls it these discussions can be had and they can evaluate and take action to make it so everyone is happy. ****

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hyrai.8720]

> @"Halbarz.3854" said:

> so Anet (...) should put up some ground rules, and they should be the ones that say what is shared and what not.

 

That is exactly what they are doing.

ANet and the developer of ArcDPS are in constant communication as to what the tool is allowed to do and display.

Build templates are the perfect example for this.

There was a build template addon for ArcDPS. As soon as ANet released their ingame templates, the addon was removed from Arc.

[DesiRe.1348]

@"SeikeNz.3526"

Oh and by the way, in case you don't realize it and you actually mean what you say: You're the most toxic person here who has commented so far. Kicking people just before the last boss is killed is toxic, it's harassing other players and a lot worse than telling someone "sorry your dps is too low, we want to play with someone else who is better". You openly admitted to doing it, you want to continue doing it and I hope you get banned for it eventually.

You are the reason, and people like you are the reason, why toxicity is so prevalent. Why the disparity between raiders and non-raiders is as big as it is. I genuinely hope you're just trying to be funny or provocative or seek attention, but if you truly believe what you say, you have a serious lack of self-awareness. You don't seem to understand that the things you criticize raiders and "dps-meter-users" for are the very thing you're doing to other people.

Also, further picking on @"Sinful Mustache.3589" because he didn't know something, yet openly admitted to his mistake is just straight bullying and the most toxic you can be. I really don't understand how you are still allowed to post in these forums, honestly.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > DPS meters are almost exclusively a good thing. They make it easier fora player to demonstrate that their character can meet the group's needs regardless of opinion or bias toward/against a given profession.

> >

> Let's not forget that DPS values are a great way to discriminate people who play the way they want, because it's more fun to them than META builds with even fixed rotations.

> It's far from being "almost exclusively a good thing", it's 50% positive **at best.**

If someone is discriminated due to DPS values, it's not because they play off-meta builds that are fun. Nobody really cares about that. It's because they **do poor DPS**.

 

A full meta player doing bad DPS will get "discriminated" as well, but an off-meta player that shows results will not be. Because, in the end, noone cares what build you're running, as long as you _do your role well_.

 

 

[Armen.1483]

> @"Halbarz.3854" said:

 

> The whole "I will help people that do not have the required DPS", is something you might tell yourself (and maybe you do) but the majority of players will just kick and that's it. I would strongly advise people to stop using this as an argument, I have seen a lot of people bashing or kicking the DPS in Fractals even for the smallest difference. ... they were also helping I guess?

They were talking about training. That is the whole point of trainings. If you've ever been in a raid training you'd know that nobody will ever get kicked of the training as the success of the training isn't necessairly in the boss kill. And also nobody will ever kick anyone for **small** dps difference especially in fractals. Maybe for a small dps. People who do small dps are nuisive as someone else who is actually pulling their weight could have been in their place. Contrary to open world, instanced content is limited by the number of players. It is the whole point of instanced content.

> So anyone claiming it is a must, or that they cannot complete content without it ... should ask themselves if the game is the problem or if they are.

Maybe they should rather ask themselves: are they really able to complete the content or are they leeching on players that do ? Why blame others of your own fault ?

 

Let's face it: most people that complain about this stuff are leechers and they are the ones spreading the toxicity because they are often getting kicked and are getting salty about it. Instead of wasting your time on forums pointing out on some unreal evil people that kicked you because you lacked 2k dps, you should rather go learn to play the game and never get kicked again. Because if you pull your weight, nobody will ever talk dps with you whether you have it or not !

 

> You are not even willing to consider the fact that it has a negative side or the potential for it. that is clear in your response.

> As a training raid leader, you should be the number one person aware of the negatives when a meter is used in groups outside of "training"

I don't think you understand what dps meter is capable of. It is called dps meter, but oddly enough it is not about dps only. ARCdps is a gem for training groups. It actually makes them much more effective.

 

To sum up: people who don't want to carry leechers are not toxic by definition. Only toxic people are toxic. And from my experience toxicity comes from the leechers and it is understandable and sad.

 

[SeikeNz.3526]

what i learned from all this:

 

being elitist and calling people newbies without basic game knowledge, oh but my dps.

 

kicking people because "don't follow my meta and dps" is ok, being kicked for trash talk on chat is not and it's toxic, ban needed.

 

when without arguments do personal attacks and call for ban.

 

if you dare to go against meta you are auto- bad and refuse to learn, also a leecher getting carried by dps gods since they can solo group contents with their dps.

 

you know everything about the game and every encounter mechanics, if you do good dps with copy paste build.

 

so many laughs .

 

btw: i will keep kicking bad players who dare to say the word dps on the party chat, guess what it's not against the rules

 

[Raithwall.8201]

> @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> what i learned from all this:

>

> being elitist and calling people newbies without basic game knowledge, oh but my dps.

>

> kicking people because "don't follow my meta and dps" is ok, being kicked for trash talk on chat is not and it's toxic, ban needed.

>

> when without arguments do personal attacks and call for ban.

>

> if you dare to go against meta you are auto- bad and refuse to learn, also a leecher getting carried by dps gods since they can solo group contents with their dps.

>

> you know everything about the game and every encounter mechanics, if you do good dps with copy paste build.

>

> so many laughs .

>

> btw: i will keep kicking bad players who dare to say the word dps on the party chat, guess what it's not against the rules

>

 

Behaving like a shitty person isnt against the rules as long as you comply with said rules

*surprised pikachu face*

[ASP.8093]

> @"naiasonod.9265" said:

> I really wish game devs would provide the tools that have been established as being standard and customary to support skill development in their games, but they always seem to think they're being magnanimous by leaving that up to the players.

 

Exposing the hooks for third-party tools *is* doing their part, though.

 

All you folks saying you want to see Arc replaced with an Anet-designed tool don't really see why a community-developed tool is better in this case. The development cycle is more responsive. People can contribute their own changes or fork it if they want to build an alternative. It serves its purpose quite well; any forced transition to a less polished or full-featured tool is going to be a net negative for months or years.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

> @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> what i learned from all this:

>

> being elitist and calling people newbies without basic game knowledge, oh but my dps.

>

> kicking people because "don't follow my meta and dps" is ok, being kicked for trash talk on chat is not and it's toxic, ban needed.

>

> when without arguments do personal attacks and call for ban.

>

> if you dare to go against meta you are auto- bad and refuse to learn, also a leecher getting carried by dps gods since they can solo group contents with their dps.

>

> you know everything about the game and every encounter mechanics, if you do good dps with copy paste build.

>

> so many laughs .

>

> btw: i will keep kicking bad players who dare to say the word dps on the party chat, guess what it's not against the rules

>

 

Then i shall finally join with auto attack lb core bearbow ranger oh wait its meta open world so its automaticly elitist evil, minionmancher and turret engi aswell so you have kick those as they are meta but you can kick ppl not having asc with ar in t4 like me its toxic to demand me. You dont seem to understand meta is meaning its the most effective tactic accesible its also if you all the boons and stuff they are basicly bad for they are focused on 1 role i will always soldier is superior to maurader and berserker and carrion beats viper but this is mostly sarcasm as there is reasons something get meta. In raids dps dont ignore mechanics in fact having to little of it will fail another mechanic the enrage timer wich will fail alot of ppl who shown to underperform act like you then we check logs it ususlly show they only used auto attack or used gear without any dmg stats they get angry shout elitist but they refuse to do much to contribute to the actual boss for they arent there to do so. Should such ppl have right to force 8 to 9 ppl into having to carry is it fair 9 ppl who actually put effort has to do that for 1 person just want the loot and feel entitled to it this is more common than you think for why work then others can do it for you

[SeikeNz.3526]

> @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > what i learned from all this:

> >

> > being elitist and calling people newbies without basic game knowledge, oh but my dps.

> >

> > kicking people because "don't follow my meta and dps" is ok, being kicked for trash talk on chat is not and it's toxic, ban needed.

> >

> > when without arguments do personal attacks and call for ban.

> >

> > if you dare to go against meta you are auto- bad and refuse to learn, also a leecher getting carried by dps gods since they can solo group contents with their dps.

> >

> > you know everything about the game and every encounter mechanics, if you do good dps with copy paste build.

> >

> > so many laughs .

> >

> > btw: i will keep kicking bad players who dare to say the word dps on the party chat, guess what it's not against the rules

> >

>

> Then i shall finally join with auto attack lb core bearbow ranger oh wait its meta open world so its automaticly elitist evil, minionmancher and turret engi aswell so you have kick those as they are meta but you can kick ppl not having asc with ar in t4 like me its toxic

 

being meta is not evil, is not bad. forcing people play your meta is.

joining a party just to do auto atks is leeching, joining a party and playing with any build, but trying, doing your rotation even if it's a bad dps is not leeching.

asking for good dps on boss with a rage timer, is ok and understandable, asking for good dps on boss without it is not.

 

[Laila Lightness.8742]

> @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > > what i learned from all this:

> > >

> > > being elitist and calling people newbies without basic game knowledge, oh but my dps.

> > >

> > > kicking people because "don't follow my meta and dps" is ok, being kicked for trash talk on chat is not and it's toxic, ban needed.

> > >

> > > when without arguments do personal attacks and call for ban.

> > >

> > > if you dare to go against meta you are auto- bad and refuse to learn, also a leecher getting carried by dps gods since they can solo group contents with their dps.

> > >

> > > you know everything about the game and every encounter mechanics, if you do good dps with copy paste build.

> > >

> > > so many laughs .

> > >

> > > btw: i will keep kicking bad players who dare to say the word dps on the party chat, guess what it's not against the rules

> > >

> >

> > Then i shall finally join with auto attack lb core bearbow ranger oh wait its meta open world so its automaticly elitist evil, minionmancher and turret engi aswell so you have kick those as they are meta but you can kick ppl not having asc with ar in t4 like me its toxic

>

> being meta is not evil, is not bad. forcing people play your meta is.

> joining a party just to do auto atks is leeching, joining a party and playing with any build, but trying, doing your rotation even if it's a bad dps is not leeching.

> asking for good dps on boss with a rage timer, is ok and understandable, asking for good dps on boss without it is not.

>

 

But if its my way to play so do you have right to force your way on me or kick me for i do what i want to what if my favorite build is auto only. Your own words used for without arc you wouldnt known i would leeched. But i do also think anet should make a squad dps tool with all arcs functions. I dont consider arc needed in t4s as most builds works there

[SeikeNz.3526]

> @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > > > what i learned from all this:

> > > >

> > > > being elitist and calling people newbies without basic game knowledge, oh but my dps.

> > > >

> > > > kicking people because "don't follow my meta and dps" is ok, being kicked for trash talk on chat is not and it's toxic, ban needed.

> > > >

> > > > when without arguments do personal attacks and call for ban.

> > > >

> > > > if you dare to go against meta you are auto- bad and refuse to learn, also a leecher getting carried by dps gods since they can solo group contents with their dps.

> > > >

> > > > you know everything about the game and every encounter mechanics, if you do good dps with copy paste build.

> > > >

> > > > so many laughs .

> > > >

> > > > btw: i will keep kicking bad players who dare to say the word dps on the party chat, guess what it's not against the rules

> > > >

> > >

> > > Then i shall finally join with auto attack lb core bearbow ranger oh wait its meta open world so its automaticly elitist evil, minionmancher and turret engi aswell so you have kick those as they are meta but you can kick ppl not having asc with ar in t4 like me its toxic

> >

> > being meta is not evil, is not bad. forcing people play your meta is.

> > joining a party just to do auto atks is leeching, joining a party and playing with any build, but trying, doing your rotation even if it's a bad dps is not leeching.

> > asking for good dps on boss with a rage timer, is ok and understandable, asking for good dps on boss without it is not.

> >

>

> But if its my way to play so do you have right to force your way on me or kick me for i do what i want to what if my favorite build is auto only. Your own words used for without arc you wouldnt known i would leeched. But i do also think anet should make a squad dps tool with all arcs functions. I dont consider arc needed in t4s as most builds works there

 

oh rly? you don't need arc dps to see if someone is auto atking or using skills, unless you don't have basic game knowledge.

[mindcircus.1506]

> @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> btw: i will keep kicking bad players who dare to say the word dps on the party chat, guess what it's not against the rules

Without the numbers showing their actual performance how do you know they are bad?

[Halbarz.3854]

> @"Armen.1483" said:

> > @"Halbarz.3854" said:

>

> > The whole "I will help people that do not have the required DPS", is something you might tell yourself (and maybe you do) but the majority of players will just kick and that's it. I would strongly advise people to stop using this as an argument, I have seen a lot of people bashing or kicking the DPS in Fractals even for the smallest difference. ... they were also helping I guess?

> They were talking about training. That is the whole point of trainings. If you've ever been in a raid training you'd know that nobody will ever get kicked of the training as the success of the training isn't necessairly in the boss kill. And also nobody will ever kick anyone for **small** dps difference especially in fractals. Maybe for a small dps. People who do small dps are nuisive as someone else who is actually pulling their weight could have been in their place. Contrary to open world, instanced content is limited by the number of players. It is the whole point of instanced content.

> > So anyone claiming it is a must, or that they cannot complete content without it ... should ask themselves if the game is the problem or if they are.

> Maybe they should rather ask themselves: are they really able to complete the content or are they leeching on players that do ? Why blame others of your own fault ?

>

> Let's face it: most people that complain about this stuff are leechers and they are the ones spreading the toxicity because they are often getting kicked and are getting salty about it. Instead of wasting your time on forums pointing out on some unreal evil people that kicked you because you lacked 2k dps, you should rather go learn to play the game and never get kicked again. Because if you pull your weight, nobody will ever talk dps with you whether you have it or not !

>

> > You are not even willing to consider the fact that it has a negative side or the potential for it. that is clear in your response.

> > As a training raid leader, you should be the number one person aware of the negatives when a meter is used in groups outside of "training"

> I don't think you understand what dps meter is capable of. It is called dps meter, but oddly enough it is not about dps only. ARCdps is a gem for training groups. It actually makes them much more effective.

>

> To sum up: people who don't want to carry leechers are not toxic by definition. Only toxic people are toxic. And from my experience toxicity comes from the leechers and it is understandable and sad.

>

 

I never said that I got kicked right? Also hasn't happened :astonished:, I do not leech, etc. So don't try to put words in my mouth :) I take part in all content available in the game (mainly as support), but some claim you NEED it **(as a requirement)**,The person I replied to pretty much claims this. So please read the whole conversation :)

 

Again you are saying training tool, yet you are completely avoiding the negative aspects of it ... a lot of people also abuse it. It can be a great tool, but people can also be tools, unfortunately. A tool such as ArcDPS which is not required to finish the content in the game only makes toxic people even more toxic.

 

Also, do you really believe that everyone that says: "I help people with it'' really does so? it is an easy thing to say but rarely gets done.

A lot of competitive people will use this tool, and a lot of people cannot handle being competitive very well, they become toxic

 

don't take this as an insult or so :) Just sharing my opinion, this is also why there are these discussion boards :)

In the end you can use the tool, Anet allows it , nothing I can do about it. But Anet should then also take action when someone is toxic when using the tool ... which they rarely do.

 

Edit: (below added)

 

Example: last week I was doing Fractal 99 as support, one of the DPS was lower than the rest (not by much) we were still doing fine, to be honest. Yet the two other DPS started flaming the guy and bashing him. I have reported them yet ... they are still hanging around daily ... So if you want tools such as ArcDPS , you should also want that Anet puts rules in place and takes action when there is abuse ... which they do not do.

 

So I believe that instead of asking then tool banned or not, people should ask if Anet is taking it to easy when it comes to player behavior.

If there would be more strictness on this part, you would see a very different answer to the Poll.

 

[SeikeNz.3526]

> @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > btw: i will keep kicking bad players who dare to say the word dps on the party chat, guess what it's not against the rules

> Without the numbers showing their actual performance how do you know they are bad?

 

if someone say on chat that party failed because of the dps you already know he is bad, simple as that, the party always fail because of failed mechanics, the only way to fail because of bad dps would be with a timer to kill it.

if someone say on the chat the dps is bad and trash talk to someone change build is auto kick for being bad.

 

you don't need arcdps to see if someone is auto atking a.k.a leeching

you don't need arcdps to see if someone keep dying because he can't do mechanics.

you don't need arcdps if the healer is not healing enough.

you don't need the best dps on bosses without a timer.

 

you only need numbers to see performance if you want to speed run not to clear the content, you can't force people to speed run contents.

 

arcdps is not being used to self improvement, people are using it to keep checking others as a harassment tool, trying to force speed runs and saying if don't do the "meta" you can't clear the content what is the biggest lie ever.

 

if you do more dps than someone don't make you good, you are not carring, unless you can solo it.