[Suggestion] Season 1 Availability

[Kilty.4906]

So, recently I watched a Woodenpotatoes video talking about a zone in Divinity's Reach that at launch had a massive hole, a place that now hosts many of GW2 festivals. This place has been mentioned in the personal story and it has always led me to confusion because I had no idea about its existence. So, in other words, Guild Wars 2 is a very lively game and it's a bummer that certain stories are no longer available to us and most important to new players. So, I idealized a feature that hosts multiple versions of the same map that changes depending on your current story step:

For example, Kessex Hills would have three versions:

* one pre-nightmare tower, available for characters before a certain step in season one;

* one during the nightmare tower, available during that section of the story;

* the current one, available after the tower's destruction;

 

So now it would come to the problem of the map population. Well, players that have done those steps could easily move to those old versions through the Scrying Pool.

This idea would as well give the devs more freedom since they could completely change a map and even the level of the mobs on those maps.

For example, let's say Queensdale has been invaded by a bunch of outlaw Quaggans, the devs could destroy Queensdale completely and on top of it bump up the mobs in that map to level 80 because even though it's a tutorial zone it would have two versions:

* one before that story step;

* one version during and/or after that step;

 

And players would still be able to travel to the old versions through the Scrying Pool.

 

What do you think?

[Linken.6345]

It still have that massive hole btw

[firedragon.8953]

Although I think it may be too hard to populate open-world maps of multiple versions, I think it would be interesting if were possible to have one or two instances of city maps such as Lion's Arch. If a character has not completed the personal story they will appear in a pre-Scarlet instance of Lion's Arch for example. I even bet that fans of the old LA would make alts that never complete the Personal Story to enjoy some nostalgia. But I honestly I don't know if this could actually be done without being super buggy since a player may be thrown into a post-Scarlet overflow map suddenly while completing Personal Story which would probably even be worse for immersion. Not to mention, the approach to LA through open-world maps such as Gendarran Fields would also most likely need to have their own timeline appropriate instance and this may make a problem for map meta events with low population, etc.

 

But honestly having multiple versions of the same maps depending on character story log progress would indeed make a re-playable "living world" more of a reality than it is now, where we basically travel through frozen moments in time and some that don't even align with the personal story content anymore, etc., etc. Future content wouldn't really need new maps, but could also recreate old maps, etc.

 

I would like a seamless approach to this, but of course not everyone wants their alts to be pushed into the "story timeline" and would prefer to have alts see the 'newest' versions of maps even if they are only level 10 or whatever. This could easily be remedied by choosing a "Story" or "Open World" character at character creation. Such characters (and high level characters who completed the story content) could use the Scrying Pool (or Asuran time travel device, etc. etc.) to then travel to these earlier maps, like your suggestion.

 

**Before all of that though**, we honestly need a Living World S1 remake. It doesn't even need to be the exact same story that actually happened, since it would be bizzaro world for some things like the new LA being destroyed and built again into....well the new LA. But there definitely needs to be a better introduction to the cast of characters and what scarlet was doing since we deal with some of that stuff in S2 and are adventuring with the cast for...well...THE REST OF THE GAME! This shouldn't be too hard, just do what Arenanet has always done--make a couple currency farming maps (or rather just add stuff like "leyline-infused passiflora" to Southsun Cove, etc. etc.) and throw in a bit of instanced S1 story. Old players who already experienced S1 will still play it and collect shinies for bigger shinies, and we can finally put an end to the disaster which is the gaping hole in the plot that people first realize after actually buying the expansions. I love this game, and admire the risk Anet took with S1, however, even with the all grief Arenanet gets from the community, I am still most surprised surprised at decisions to never refine the game to at least a coherent level and how the S1 debacle still has not been sorted out in any real creative or professional capacity. Come'on Anet!

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Akath.2650" said:

> So, I idealized a feature that hosts multiple versions of the same map that changes depending on your current story step:

 

Anet said they'd never do this because it separates the playerbase too much, and it effectively doubles the filesize of the game to have two (or more) of so many zones - it's already over 40GB, do we really want the gw.dat file to be 80GB? I know I don't.

 

In addition, the replayability feature in the story journal makes phasing challenging to do, particularly for separate zones.

 

Instead, I'd rather have more cases where they phase visuals like the Trahearne statue in The Grove, or the arrow in the Fang of the Serpent.

 

> For example, Kessex Hills would have three versions:

> * one pre-nightmare tower, available for characters before a certain step in season one;

> * one during the nightmare tower, available during that section of the story;

> * the current one, available after the tower's destruction;

 

It should be noted that other than visuals, the difference between those three are minimal. Less than a dozen events were unique to when the Tower of Nightmares was up, and ambient mobs and dialogue changed, but between pre-Tower and post-Tower alone, there's only [one event](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Protect_Webb_as_he_recovers_his_heirlooms) (wiki says its still active though I've never seen it since ToN so maybe I'm wrong) and [one idle NPC removed](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Old_Man_%28Auld_Red_Wharf%29), and [one heart](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Help_Sergeant_Rane) got changed.

 

In short, the changes aren't worth making three zones for. Instead, it'd be better to turn the during-Tower time into a story instance along with bringing back other Season 1 instances like [The Nightmare Unveiled](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Nightmare_Unveiled), in a open story instance like the HoT prologue instance.

 

Similar to the Great Collapse. All that got changed was visuals and dialogue. 100% not worth making a phased zone for. At best, revamp a PS or S1 story instance for showing it.

 

IMO, the only old zone worth bringing back for players to actively visit is Old LA, and done via a Lounge Pass.

 

> So now it would come to the problem of the map population. Well, players that have done those steps could easily move to those old versions through the Scrying Pool.

This is also a bad idea, because the Scrying Pool is likely going to be locked behind Season 5 once we're done with it and moved on to End of Dragons expansion.

 

> This idea would as well give the devs more freedom since they could completely change a map and even the level of the mobs on those maps.

It would also restrict devs because there'd be a growing expectation for all maps to follow this, and they'd be ever more conscious about the growing size of the game files.

 

Either way, they've been asked this for ages, beginning with people asking with phased Orr maps, and every time they say no for xyz reasons.

[Kilty.4906]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> Anet said they'd never do this because it separates the playerbase too much, and it effectively doubles the filesize of the game to have two (or more) of so many zones

Don't new zones do the same? They split the player population and increase the game size, besides it steal resources that could be used for other features when creating new maps with new assets.

 

> Instead, I'd rather have more cases where they phase visuals like the Trahearne statue in The Grove, or the arrow in the Fang of the Serpent.

Indeed, but it doesn't work for all situations.

 

> It should be noted that other than visuals, the difference between those three are minimal. Less than a dozen events were unique to when the Tower of Nightmares was up, and ambient mobs and dialogue changed, but between pre-Tower and post-Tower alone, there's only [one event](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Protect_Webb_as_he_recovers_his_heirlooms) (wiki says its still active though I've never seen it since ToN so maybe I'm wrong) and [one idle NPC removed](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Old_Man_%28Auld_Red_Wharf%29), and [one heart](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Help_Sergeant_Rane) got changed.

 

> In short, the changes aren't worth making three zones for. Instead, it'd be better to turn the during-Tower time into a story instance along with bringing back other Season 1 instances like [The Nightmare Unveiled](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Nightmare_Unveiled), in a open story instance like the HoT prologue instance.

 

> Similar to the Great Collapse. All that got changed was visuals and dialogue. 100% not worth making a phased zone for. At best, revamp a PS or S1 story instance for showing it.

Guild Wars 2 is a rich game, storytelling wise, the point is to feel the atmosphere that it was once there. For those who love the story and want to immerse themselves in it, these small details are crucial. I would love to listen to those NPCs and immerse myself in that zones artwork.

 

> IMO, the only old zone worth bringing back for players to actively visit is Old LA, and done via a Lounge Pass.

I don't think so, LA is not the only zone that had changes, and putting a Lounge Pass, unless it's for free, will only bring problems.

 

> It would also restrict devs because there'd be a growing expectation for all maps to follow this, and they'd be ever more conscious about the growing size of the game files.

We shouldn't be worried about game size, after all, it's inevitable that the game will grow in size as new content is being added-in either through revamping of season one or new maps for the season content.

 

> Either way, they've been asked this for ages, beginning with people asking with phased Orr maps, and every time they say no for xyz reasons.

Indeed, people are asking for this! New players want to play season one even if it is just for the story because it's a huge leap from personal story to season two. And Anet "best" decision was to put them in the scrying pool and now the content is all over the place.

 

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Akath.2650" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > Anet said they'd never do this because it separates the playerbase too much, and it effectively doubles the filesize of the game to have two (or more) of so many zones

> Don't new zones do the same? They split the player population and increase the game size, besides it steal resources that could be used for other features when creating new maps with new assets.

 

Yes, which is why they've begun reducing the amount of maps per episode, and why they merged the LWS 3 & 4 dailies into rotating with one map per day. The model of 1 map per episode was simply not sustainable for the playerbase size moving forward. And it should be noted that adding an additional 1-3 phased versions of core maps in a handful of updates would be basically 4+ LW seasons/expansions maps' amount of separating playerbase. Especially if it adds in new arbitrary open world plots like quaggans taking over Queensdale, and doesn't just restrict itself to S1/S2 changes and the things players have been wanting since launch (renewed Orr).

 

> > Instead, I'd rather have more cases where they phase visuals like the Trahearne statue in The Grove, or the arrow in the Fang of the Serpent.

> Indeed, but it doesn't work for all situations.

True, that kind of phasing doesn't work wherever collision is involved. But in those cases, usually just making an expanded instance would be sufficient because in the end, it's just visuals.

For example, there'd be no real benefit other than dialogue change to having Branded Amnoon become a permanent phased alternative version of Crystal Oasis when Amnoon is the *only* change - that would only effect the Casino Blitz meta in terms of events, so it's just pure dialogue changes and aesthetics.

 

> Guild Wars 2 is a rich game, storytelling wise, the point is to feel the atmosphere that it was once there. For those who love the story and want to immerse themselves in it, these small details are crucial. I would love to listen to those NPCs and immerse myself in that zones artwork.

 

I feel that the "atmosphere that it was once" would still be there in the proposed story instances, personally. The thing is that the number of players who would immerse themselves in the dialogue and zone's atmosphere are minimal in the playerbase, and even for those who aren't, the desire to visit these places outside of RP would be one-time things for the majority of people, like visiting [scarlet's Secret Lair](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scarlet%27s_Secret_Lair) or [The Dead End](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Dead_End) after Season 1.

 

> > IMO, the only old zone worth bringing back for players to actively visit is Old LA, and done via a Lounge Pass.

> I don't think so, LA is not the only zone that had changes, and putting a Lounge Pass, unless it's for free, will only bring problems.

 

My point is that the changes are minimal, and **none** of them were zone-wide. Even the Tower of Nightmares of Kessex Hills was only affecting half of the map, and when it comes to ambient dialogue, other than Fort Salma and the Old Man in Auld Reef, it's _all_ still in the zone - the only thing missing is the ambiance of non-toxicity in ~1/3rd of the map. What's missing there, really, is the during-ToN events and dialogue, but that doesn't need a whole phased map.

 

With other maps like Lornar's Pass, Iron Marches, Timberline Falls, Divinity's Reach, and Dry Top - for the first three, it's _just_ aesthetics (no missing dialogue or events); for the later two, it's _just_ aesthetics and dialogue (no missing events). And, except Iron Marches, only in one [sector/area](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Area). This is **not** worth fracturing the playerbase over.

 

Kessex Hills is the **only** viable explorable zone for such, and even if one were to phase that map, Season 1 isn't in the story journal to use to dictate how to phase it.

 

I also disagree that "there will be problems" if an "Old Lion's Arch Lounge Pass" is only from the gemstore. Despite initial grumbling, no issues came from the Armistance Bastion being a gemstore only lobby. And this has been something that players actively said they would pay for.

 

> > It would also restrict devs because there'd be a growing expectation for all maps to follow this, and they'd be ever more conscious about the growing size of the game files.

> We shouldn't be worried about game size, after all, it's inevitable that the game will grow in size as new content is being added-in either through revamping of season one or new maps for the season content.

 

Inevitable, sure, but there's no need to double it so that people can experience a handful of dialogue lines, or run around an area that only _looks_ different and has no other gameplay changes. There's no need to increase it right off the bat "just because it will happen eventually" because doing so will mean that eventually it'll be _even larger._ And when games get too large, they _become unplayable for certain players._

 

GW2 is intended - at least originally - to be capable of being played on potato computers. This means a file size that's 80+ GB just isn't ideal.

 

> > Either way, they've been asked this for ages, beginning with people asking with phased Orr maps, and every time they say no for xyz reasons.

> Indeed, people are asking for this! New players want to play season one even if it is just for the story because it's a huge leap from personal story to season two. And Anet "best" decision was to put them in the scrying pool and now the content is all over the place.

"People are asking for this" - **far** less frequently than asking for capes, mounts, or Cantha though. It's the kind of thing that gets brought up once or twice a year, whereas other things that "people are asking for" get brought up once or twice a month.

 

Don't get me wrong, despite its poor quality, **Season 1 should definitely return**. But phasing maps is simply *not how to do it.* It should _return in the story journal_ - despite common belief, the majority of the main story was told via instances and idle dialogue in the open world, _not events._ With a handful of exceptions, the events can return to the open world without much changes - the exceptions being Kessex Hills' Tower of Nightmares, Twisted Marionette, and Escape from/Battle for Lion's Arch open world events. For those exceptions, Kessex Hills' "tower is still standing" version can be made into a follow-up story instance to [The Nightmare Unveiled](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Nightmare_Unveiled) that leads into the returned open world zone [Tower of Nightmares](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tower_of_Nightmares_%28zone%29) that's basically an open instance not on the world map, like the [Mist Rift](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mists_Rift); Twisted Marionette would need Lornar's Pass returned to the old version (nothing lost if the dialogue is moved to post-TM victory stage of a 2hr meta); and Battle for Lion's Arch can be another open instance that is accessed via rifts outside the entrances to LA, with Escape and Battle metas merged into one instance.

[Danikat.8537]

If I remember correctly Anet have said the problem with bringing back Season 1 and other old temporary content isn't how to do it but the time which would be required. Because of the way that content was designed and changes to the game since then they'd have to basically re-make it all from scratch, which takes as much time as making new content - meaning it would delay new content because people can't do two things at the same time.

 

They can do it, but they don't think it's worth doing. Players already complain if we go longer than they were expecting without a new episode, new content for other game modes and an update on the next expansion. Do you think the majority of people would be happy to hear that everything new is going to take twice as long for a while so they can add old stuff back into the game?

 

Personally I'd love them to do that. But I know a lot of people don't care about the story and didn't find Season 1 all that interesting the first time around who would much prefer they keep working on other things instead.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Danikat.8537" said:

>But I know a lot of people don't care about the story and didn't find Season 1 all that interesting the first time around who would much prefer they keep working on other things instead.

:: raiseshand ::

 

[firedragon.8953]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > @"Danikat.8537" said:

> >But I know a lot of people don't care about the story and didn't find Season 1 all that interesting the first time around who would much prefer they keep working on other things instead.

> :: raiseshand ::

>

 

But...we don't have to forfeit one for the other. "Other things" can be included with the permanent S1. New mechanics, farms, raid boss (probably not), world boss, even a map or two. New open world group content and mechanics can be introduced while connecting the end of the personal story to the beginning of S2. I mean what else do we expect Living World episodes to provide? We don't have to bring S1 "back", the devs just need to create S1, period. They may even put in a nice and integrated CC tutorial before new players head off to the jungle which is quite the jump in difficulty from core. ;p

 

If it were me, I'd start releasing the LS1 episodes from November with the influx of new players that would be coming from Steam that showcases what Living World content is while letting them access it during the free login time and be immediately playable when they finish the core story.

[Randulf.7614]

> @"firedragon.8953" said:

> > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > > @"Danikat.8537" said:

> > >But I know a lot of people don't care about the story and didn't find Season 1 all that interesting the first time around who would much prefer they keep working on other things instead.

> > :: raiseshand ::

> >

>

> But...we don't have to forfeit one for the other. "Other things" can be included with the permanent S1. New mechanics, farms, raid boss (probably not), world boss, even a map or two. New open world group content and mechanics can be introduced while connecting the end of the personal story to the beginning of S2. I mean what else do we expect Living World episodes to provide? We don't have to bring S1 "back", the devs just need to create S1, period. They may even put in a nice and integrated CC tutorial before new players head off to the jungle which is quite the jump in difficulty from core. ;p

>

> If it were me, I'd start releasing the LS1 episodes from November with the influx of new players that would be coming from Steam that showcases what Living World content is while letting them access it during the free login time and be immediately playable when they finish the core story.

 

I’m not against it, but ls1 needs starting from scratch. The old code is buried and broken, lacks any real story and is specifically designed to be short, brief open world content which is replaced ever episode. It can’t just be released

 

It would likely take them at least a solid year to get it to a reasonable state

 

But yeah a full revamp, new mechanics, a story, better production - I’m all aboard for that. Given the state of recent ls episodes, id prob have preferred ls1 redux

[mercury ranique.2170]

The "hole" in DR was not really there cause of living world. This was pre-launch the Canthan region of DR. This was ditched shortly before launch and replaced by the big collapse (basically a big hole and a few ruins around it). It was ulgy and not well done. During season one it was replaced by the queens pavillion and the battlepits.

 

The choice there have little to do with season one itself, but also with fixing things that needed to be fixed anyways. Living world is the medium used to do this.

 

As explained, having multiple versions of the same map would split up the playerbase and would require a lot bigger dat-files. Even it looks the same, from a technical point of view it counts as multiple maps. It doesnt matter they look the same. For LA you'll need 9 versions.

 

1: launch version

2: mad king destroyed the first fountain version

3: restored version

4: karka's destroy lighthouse and some other details

5: lighthouse being rebuild version

6: scarlet attacks LA

7: LA in ruins

8: LA is being rebuild

9: LA is in it's current state

 

(this exclude festival versions like the one during the first dragon bash, first wintersday and second halloween.

[maddoctor.2738]

Let's take a look at the complete list, I will not include Lion's Arch

 

A) Southsun Cove while attacking the karka, Southsun Cove while dealing with the Consortium/refugee crisis, regular Southsun Cove.

B ) Wayfarer Foothills and Diessa Plateau while fighting elementals and saving refugees, Wayfarer Foothills and Diessa Plateau during the Molten Alliance invasions, Sonic Periscopes in Wayfarer Foothills, Snowden Drifts, Diessa Plateau, the Plains of Ashford, and Iron Marches

C) Scarlet's Invasions on all zones not suited for character levels below 25 (except Orr and Southsun Cove)

D) Tower of Nightmares in Kessex Hills

E) Twisted Marionette in Lornar's Pass

 

That's it. Most of these can be easily skipped as they don't offer any story at all, do we need a special version of Wayfarer Foothills where we repair signs and fight elementals coming out of the ground? Do we need a special version of Diessa Plateau where we fight Molten Alliance invaders coming out of random portals? Since the Tower of Nightmares content is INSIDE the building, do we really need separate versions of Kessex Hills with and without it? It's the same zone with very minor changes, are those Toxic Alliance mobs, like the new spider queen, the alchemist and so on, so bad that we want them removed?

 

The amount of changes S1 did to the game is seriously overrated. The only things new players are missing are the fight against the Ancient Karka, the inside of the Tower of Nightmares and the Twisted Marionette fight. Everything else was random group events spawning on zone as 100 players attacked a single champion covering it with particles and effects blinding everyone.

[firedragon.8953]

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > @"firedragon.8953" said:

> > > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > > > @"Danikat.8537" said:

> > > >But I know a lot of people don't care about the story and didn't find Season 1 all that interesting the first time around who would much prefer they keep working on other things instead.

> > > :: raiseshand ::

> > >

> >

> > But...we don't have to forfeit one for the other. "Other things" can be included with the permanent S1. New mechanics, farms, raid boss (probably not), world boss, even a map or two. New open world group content and mechanics can be introduced while connecting the end of the personal story to the beginning of S2. I mean what else do we expect Living World episodes to provide? We don't have to bring S1 "back", the devs just need to create S1, period. They may even put in a nice and integrated CC tutorial before new players head off to the jungle which is quite the jump in difficulty from core. ;p

> >

> > If it were me, I'd start releasing the LS1 episodes from November with the influx of new players that would be coming from Steam that showcases what Living World content is while letting them access it during the free login time and be immediately playable when they finish the core story.

>

> I’m not against it, but ls1 needs starting from scratch. The old code is buried and broken, lacks any real story and is specifically designed to be short, brief open world content which is replaced ever episode. It can’t just be released

>

> It would likely take them at least a solid year to get it to a reasonable state

>

> But yeah a full revamp, new mechanics, a story, better production - I’m all aboard for that. Given the state of recent ls episodes, id prob have preferred ls1 redux

 

Yes! I agree completely.

 

Honestly, they could do many things to link the old story with new content. Below are multiple ways this could be done.

 

**_Simplest and most likely cheapest (least likely to detract from 'new content'._**

A type of repayable synopsis. Similar to what we saw in PoF with the "memory fragments" in the Domain of the Lost. This could just be made into a LWS1 single episode with it culminating with a reliving of the final battles with Scarlet. Everything is the same as the current band aid in the beginning, with us going to LA and talking to hear Ela Makkay's summary of Scarlet's War. After the cutscene, etc. we enter the new chapter where an instance point spawn on the nearby beach refugee camp. After entering the instance the commander is sitting down by the fire and falls asleep entering a *dream state* in which he is reintroduced to the main future cast members and the major events surrounding scarlets war. In the end scarlet reappears as a nightmarish end-boss and him and his dream friends kill her and he wakes up.

 

When he returns to the beach (now daytime), his friends are there and basically ask, "What are you doing sleeping on the beach, boss?" The commander says he came to listen to Ela Makkay's historical retelling of Scarlet. He wanted to see how accurate it was. His friends ask, "How accurate was it?" and he make up something like his memory being foggy, as if he never really lived the experience and maybe it was a side effect from the blast that destroyed Lion's Arch. The conversation continues a little, but basically just ends with the idea that "Lion's Arch has been rebuilt and Scarlet is gone. Let's enjoy the peace while we have it." Characters exit beach.

 

This is easy because it only needs one "dream environment" and already existing character models, but more importantly introduces the cast. It fits with the current recap and covers for any gaps in knowledge the commander may experience during dialog and references in following seasons due to "leyline dementia". lol

 

**_Difficult, expensive but most complete (becomes new content)_**

Basically create a new Living World season that is heavily instanced based for areas in Core Tyria to relive the big moments throughout the story. Add some map currencies to Southsun Cove. Even add a new map somewhere. Change the story enough to be different but still follow the general plot to fit into the world. This would present difficulty in dealing with continuity of LA design, etc. So honestly, not even sure if this undertaking would be better than the dream synopsis version.