My honest feelings about map mob difficulty in PoF

[Pockethole.5031]

> @"SunTzu.4513" said:

>For me personaly would be a down tuning of HP or DPS deald by the mobs result in maybe quitting the game.

 

And of course, I'm the opposite. I effortlessly hopped to WoW after experiencing PoF (and of course because new expansion launched). I still play but not as much. If open world mobs were to be made harder like many repliers seem to dream of (which means 1/2 playerbase dying most of the time to the mob, not just downing, outright dying), I wouldn't be able to enjoy open world anymore. Don't you get tired of whacking mobs all the time? Might as well put a target dummy or combat simulation that gives loot after it dies in middle of LA. **Don't you get enough combat satisfaction in fractals or raids?** I just don't get you people. To me whacking mobs becomes boring quickly, especially when I'm not there to whack anything. In personal stories, combat is (to me) just a way to gate my progression. What is so fun wasting time on AI? Even punching a bag irl is more understandable because it affects your body in positive ways. Maybe I just wouldn't be able to understand. Either way... what you said goes both ways.

 

[SunTzu.4513]

>And of course, I'm the opposite. I effortlessly hopped to WoW after experiencing PoF

 

Just out of curiosity do you had a better experience in WoW regarding to the topic than here? I'm also a long time WoW player but i had the feeling in WoW mobs are much more anyoing especially while flying is still not unlocked if an xpac is new. It was anoying to a point to me wehre i stopped farming on my DK main and create an druid alt for this to skip trash with stealth. I even stopped playing Blood DK in the OW because players always dumped their aggroed packs into my DnD and AoE's and i had to deal with them. Those things never happened to me here in GW2.

 

> Don't you get tired of whacking mobs all the time?

 

I don't have the feeling i need to whack them in a negativ way of the meaning to this. They just melting away by no real effort. It's not about combat satisfaction in the OW. If i need to scratch this itch i try to solo bountys or metas. But for me it's a big point of imersion if i have at least the feeling if i'm in enemy territory there is some threat to me. HoT overdue this in some areas by far. In PoF i never feel threatened at all. And no we don't need a raid encounter like mob design but some challenge is really important i think. I mean c'mon Balthi is the freaking God of War or Joko he is an extreme Powerfull Lich and they presented as a serious threat to Tyria but even their best soldiers/servents feel like walking lootbags and oposes no threat at all.

 

>To me whacking mobs becomes boring quickly, especially when I'm not there to whack anything. In personal stories, combat is (to me) just a way to gate my progression. What is so fun wasting time on AI?

 

I can agree to this to in some cases. I find most LS Story Bosses just plain boring especally in LS3/4 where they are mostly HP sponges and the ''difficulty'' is created by endless carpets of death spams. That's why i advocate for more real mechaniks in the ow to mobs. Lower the mob density but give them some more seroius mechaniks that can not be ignored by just face tanking it.

 

>Even punching a bag irl is more understandable because it affects your body in positive ways.

 

It's OT but funny you mention this i love doing a good bag workout after a stressfull day at work. For me this and MMA training overall is my true passion.

 

>Maybe I just wouldn't be able to understand. Either way... what you said goes both ways.

 

In the end it's just a game most important thing is to have fun the way one wants to enjoy it. If there is no more joy it's time to move on at least for me. So have a nice weekend.

[Tiilimon.6094]

> @"Pockethole.5031" said:

> > @"SunTzu.4513" said:

> >For me personaly would be a down tuning of HP or DPS deald by the mobs result in maybe quitting the game.

>

> And of course, I'm the opposite. I effortlessly hopped to WoW after experiencing PoF (and of course because new expansion launched). I still play but not as much. If open world mobs were to be made harder like many repliers seem to dream of (which means 1/2 playerbase dying most of the time to the mob, not just downing, outright dying), I wouldn't be able to enjoy open world anymore. Don't you get tired of whacking mobs all the time? Might as well put a target dummy or combat simulation that gives loot after it dies in middle of LA. **Don't you get enough combat satisfaction in fractals or raids?** I just don't get you people. To me whacking mobs becomes boring quickly, especially when I'm not there to whack anything. In personal stories, combat is (to me) just a way to gate my progression. What is so fun wasting time on AI? Even punching a bag irl is more understandable because it affects your body in positive ways. Maybe I just wouldn't be able to understand. Either way... what you said goes both ways.

>

 

You can opt out of combat in OW by playing stealth builds very easily, capped concentration should let you mine a couple nodes as a thief or scrapper and should even give you time to mount up before stealth fades.

 

As combat is the only reason why we even put clothes on our characters in this game, I find it very strange that getting into brawls is perceived as a problem anyways, isn't that kinda the point of the game?

 

Are you sure that a combat focused MMO is what you actually even want to play if you find it boring?

 

I've met a lot of people in Elite Dangerous who actually wish to play Universe Sandbox but for some reason buy a game where all the space ships come equipped with weaponry when bought, then complain when anything or anyone attacks their ship. This reminds me a bit of that.

[volca.7234]

The problem is not PoF or HoT being """"hard"""" the problem is that core tryia is too easy, all core tryia enemies should be redesigned and buffed both in stats "attack and hp" and AI they must raise the attack speed of mobs they are too slow maybe they were good back in 2012 when player attacks were bit slower but now they must adjust

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @"Pockethole.5031" said:

>If open world mobs were to be made harder like many repliers seem to dream of

 

I don't think people are as for making it harder as you think, rather more against making it easier since the bar is already pretty low.

Made less annoying? Maybe. Made easier? I can't agree.

 

[Algreg.3629]

> @"Pockethole.5031" said:

> > @"SunTzu.4513" said:

> >For me personaly would be a down tuning of HP or DPS deald by the mobs result in maybe quitting the game.

>

> And of course, I'm the opposite. I effortlessly hopped to WoW after experiencing PoF (and of course because new expansion launched). I still play but not as much. If open world mobs were to be made harder like many repliers seem to dream of (which means 1/2 playerbase dying most of the time to the mob, not just downing, outright dying), I wouldn't be able to enjoy open world anymore. Don't you get tired of whacking mobs all the time? Might as well put a target dummy or combat simulation that gives loot after it dies in middle of LA. **Don't you get enough combat satisfaction in fractals or raids?** I just don't get you people. To me whacking mobs becomes boring quickly, especially when I'm not there to whack anything. In personal stories, combat is (to me) just a way to gate my progression. What is so fun wasting time on AI? Even punching a bag irl is more understandable because it affects your body in positive ways. Maybe I just wouldn't be able to understand. Either way... what you said goes both ways.

>

 

This is not meant to be sarcastic at all, but this statement really makes me wonder. Do you think this here is the right genre for you? There are loads of enjoyable games that center around exploration and similar concepts without any combat. Maybe you should play those instead of a fantasy MMORPG with a focus on conflict?

[battledrone.8315]

> @"volca.7234" said:

> The problem is not PoF or HoT being """"hard"""" the problem is that core tryia is too easy, all core tryia enemies should be redesigned and buffed both in stats "attack and hp" and AI they must raise the attack speed of mobs they are too slow maybe they were good back in 2012 when player attacks were bit slower but now they must adjust

 

lol, good luck with that one. having to redesign so much of the game, for a feature, that is bound to cost them even more players and goodwill.

never mind the fact, that they have spend so much time nerfing many of them first. THEY chose to remove some of the mechanics from the game COMPLETELY at lower levels. you can bet, that they didnt do that without good reason. angry players tend to leave the game, for some reason, they dont just change their personalities and

playstyles on a whim. and most businesses realize, that its a bad idea to displease their customers in any way

[Sobx.1758]

> @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > @"volca.7234" said:

> > The problem is not PoF or HoT being """"hard"""" the problem is that core tryia is too easy, all core tryia enemies should be redesigned and buffed both in stats "attack and hp" and AI they must raise the attack speed of mobs they are too slow maybe they were good back in 2012 when player attacks were bit slower but now they must adjust

>

> lol, good luck with that one. having to redesign so much of the game, for a feature, that is bound to cost them even more players and goodwill.

> never mind the fact, that they have spend so much time nerfing many of them first. THEY chose to remove some of the mechanics from the game COMPLETELY at lower levels. you can bet, that they didnt do that without good reason. angry players tend to leave the game, for some reason, they dont just change their personalities and

> playstyles on a whim. and most businesses realize, that its a bad idea to displease their customers in any way

 

Ah right, another "if you don't do what I want, you lose players and it only works for MY preferences!"

 

But yeah, changing core at this point probably wouldn't make much sense or difference. It's fine as an introductory ramp-up type of content, but then if you're not willing to improve as the game moves forward, you can always stay in core instead of trying to change expansions into something they're not and shouldn't be.

[Pockethole.5031]

> @"SunTzu.4513" said:

> Just out of curiosity do you had a better experience in WoW regarding to the topic than here?

 

I think the difficulty is a bit easier depending how scaling works at that time, and your gear matters. In my opinion mechanics in open world are more forgiving for the player. Scaling takes your gear into account and adjusts mob stats, which has resulted in complaints, because when you get better gear you are supposed to feel stronger, but you don't, and therefore getting better gear feels somewhat unrewarding in current content. Last expansion I eventually reached the gear levels that make current content a little bit easier, so I'm not sure if that's going to be the case again. There has also been complaints about how scaling works in last 2 expansions. There is definitely a scaling issue.

However, I have the option to do old content, and that's where I can one-shot stuff.

 

> In PoF i never feel threatened at all. And no we don't need a raid encounter like mob design but some challenge is really important i think. I mean c'mon Balthi is the freaking God of War or Joko he is an extreme Powerfull Lich and they presented as a serious threat to Tyria but even their best soldiers/servents feel like walking lootbags and oposes no threat at all.

 

Here it's a matter of perspective. Of course, some occasional challenge is good... to me it just feels like anywhere I go I have to fight for my life (or node).

 

> >To me whacking mobs becomes boring quickly, especially when I'm not there to whack anything. In personal stories, combat is (to me) just a way to gate my progression. What is so fun wasting time on AI?

>

> I can agree to this to in some cases. I find most LS Story Bosses just plain boring especally in LS3/4 where they are mostly HP sponges and the ''difficulty'' is created by endless carpets of death spams. That's why i advocate for more real mechaniks in the ow to mobs. Lower the mob density but give them some more seroius mechaniks that can not be ignored by just face tanking it.

 

I think that would be ok.

 

> >Even punching a bag irl is more understandable because it affects your body in positive ways.

>

> It's OT but funny you mention this i love doing a good bag workout after a stressfull day at work. For me this and MMA training overall is my true passion.

>

> >Maybe I just wouldn't be able to understand. Either way... what you said goes both ways.

>

> In the end it's just a game most important thing is to have fun the way one wants to enjoy it. If there is no more joy it's time to move on at least for me. So have a nice weekend.

 

You too.

 

[The Subterfuge Of Dwayna.8]

I'm getting torment everytime I'm dismounted on my raptor.

I believe mob difficulty scales on different criteria. It seems like it is highly correlated to input/output OS version and possibly physical drivers configuration.

It is not impossible to have very easy mobs and a few seconds later very hard ones.

Time will tell.

[Pockethole.5031]

> @"Tiilimon.6094" said:

> You can opt out of combat in OW by playing stealth builds very easily, capped concentration should let you mine a couple nodes as a thief or scrapper and should even give you time to mount up before stealth fades.

>

> As combat is the only reason why we even put clothes on our characters in this game, I find it very strange that getting into brawls is perceived as a problem anyways, isn't that kinda the point of the game?

>

> Are you sure that a combat focused MMO is what you actually even want to play if you find it boring?

>

> I've met a lot of people in Elite Dangerous who actually wish to play Universe Sandbox but for some reason buy a game where all the space ships come equipped with weaponry when bought, then complain when anything or anyone attacks their ship. This reminds me a bit of that.

 

 

> @"Algreg.3629" said:

> > @"Pockethole.5031" said:

> > > @"SunTzu.4513" said:

> > >For me personaly would be a down tuning of HP or DPS deald by the mobs result in maybe quitting the game.

> >

> > And of course, I'm the opposite. I effortlessly hopped to WoW after experiencing PoF (and of course because new expansion launched). I still play but not as much. If open world mobs were to be made harder like many repliers seem to dream of (which means 1/2 playerbase dying most of the time to the mob, not just downing, outright dying), I wouldn't be able to enjoy open world anymore. Don't you get tired of whacking mobs all the time? Might as well put a target dummy or combat simulation that gives loot after it dies in middle of LA. **Don't you get enough combat satisfaction in fractals or raids?** I just don't get you people. To me whacking mobs becomes boring quickly, especially when I'm not there to whack anything. In personal stories, combat is (to me) just a way to gate my progression. What is so fun wasting time on AI? Even punching a bag irl is more understandable because it affects your body in positive ways. Maybe I just wouldn't be able to understand. Either way... what you said goes both ways.

> >

>

> This is not meant to be sarcastic at all, but this statement really makes me wonder. Do you think this here is the right genre for you? There are loads of enjoyable games that center around exploration and similar concepts without any combat. Maybe you should play those instead of a fantasy MMORPG with a focus on conflict?

 

Yes, probably. But it's not that simple for me. I don't play the MMORPG genre for the sake of combat... and **I'm going to be a hypocrite and say I don't entirely despise combat.** After one-shotting mobs for a while in old content WoW, yeah, I want to go back to current content and face some difficulty. Same I could do in GW2, crawl back to core Tyria (and I actually did, started a new character).

Let's go back a few years. Like 15 or so. My first MMORPG was RuneScape(2). The repetitive grinding was of course boring but chatting with other people made it tolerable. Quests were fun and still are. But my peanut brain couldn't crack some puzzles so I often ended up following a quest guide. I found a friend who introduced me to Maplestory. That game is a grindfest. However at that time leveling was mostly dependant on party quests, doing a mission with other people. It got me hooked anyway and I wasted time and money on it. Surprisingly the fun part for me of the game became the combos that I do when I grind mobs. Yes. However if I were to play it again (and I fucking hope not) I would watch My Little Pony from Netflix because grinding is very repetitive.

On the internet I eventually came across WoW memes. The first image consisted of a person with acne and something negative about the person playing it. Not a great introduction to the game but I enjoyed it. I had fun chatting with other people in guild... just not always. I still remember I heard from another member the guild master said I'm annoying.

Anyway again I heard from internet friend about this new game that is GW2. When it came out I bought a copy to myself and to a person I never met before... who later became my close friend. I don't really remember much from the beginning but I stopped playing, came back, stopped playing. Sometimes played seriously. My GW2 playing history is not very consistent. I did play alot this year though, and surpassed myself and started doing the story and maxed out HoT masteries even.

 

I loved Wildstar and Maplestory 2, both games with lovely housing systems, but they were shut down.

 

So to my point... I've played MMORPGS for majority of my life and... I'm in a point of life where I don't know what to do. Everything is technically fine but I don't have dreams or purpose or anything. I probably have the possibility of getting the education I want, but I don't know what I want. WoW and GW2 (well, I guess Maplestory is as well, and Runescape that I haven't played in the longest time) I'm most familiar with. Maybe the apartment I live in doesn't feel like home, it's still so new and I sometimes wonder how did I end up here even though it's been 2 years already, but **there is a soothing effect from playing games with familiar virtual realities.**

 

I don't want to quit, I can do combat, but I just get quickly tired of fighting for life all the time, every minute, every hour, every day. Maybe I got burnt out on GW2, when I switched to WoW everything seemed very chill in comparison - and that's probably because I am doing old content right now, but also leveling up in it. I tried the new expansion, well depending on the place it can be aggro happy or peaceful. It's not, however, aggro happy absolutely everywhere, like in PoF. It's possible to mine a node in peace sometimes. And I don't have to kill a battallion of mobs, just one mob. Makes it seem friendlier for sure.

I know I will return to GW2 and I still login for my daily reward, I might do a heart, but that's that right now for me.

 

I can't drop these games I've played for so long. Not all of them anyway. I enjoy character customization the most and of course wish GW2 would recieve more of that as well. The combat... I can live with it, I just don't want it to be so extreme all the time. The way it is, I can live with that too, but then I can't play GW2 as the only game endlessly. Well... maybe nobody can, if that's all they do in a day. I guess it's normal.

I enjoy the story, assuming it's good. I used to enjoy chatting with other people but now I'm anxious about it and try to not invest my personal feelings anywhere. It's nice to see others getting along though. There are things I like about both games.

Hope this helped you to understand why I keep playing. Maybe I could try to explain more but I think I've spent at least half an hour writing this it will have to do.

 

TL:DR;

In any case I can live with combat but if it's harder I burn out faster, and if it's too easy it can become boring. (So it can be hard to determine what is the good difficulty, and perhaps it would be better to let people select their own difficulty at any given time.)

[Shikaru.7618]

> @"Pockethole.5031" said:

> > @"Tiilimon.6094" said:

> > You can opt out of combat in OW by playing stealth builds very easily, capped concentration should let you mine a couple nodes as a thief or scrapper and should even give you time to mount up before stealth fades.

> >

> > As combat is the only reason why we even put clothes on our characters in this game, I find it very strange that getting into brawls is perceived as a problem anyways, isn't that kinda the point of the game?

> >

> > Are you sure that a combat focused MMO is what you actually even want to play if you find it boring?

> >

> > I've met a lot of people in Elite Dangerous who actually wish to play Universe Sandbox but for some reason buy a game where all the space ships come equipped with weaponry when bought, then complain when anything or anyone attacks their ship. This reminds me a bit of that.

>

>

> > @"Algreg.3629" said:

> > > @"Pockethole.5031" said:

> > > > @"SunTzu.4513" said:

> > > >For me personaly would be a down tuning of HP or DPS deald by the mobs result in maybe quitting the game.

> > >

> > > And of course, I'm the opposite. I effortlessly hopped to WoW after experiencing PoF (and of course because new expansion launched). I still play but not as much. If open world mobs were to be made harder like many repliers seem to dream of (which means 1/2 playerbase dying most of the time to the mob, not just downing, outright dying), I wouldn't be able to enjoy open world anymore. Don't you get tired of whacking mobs all the time? Might as well put a target dummy or combat simulation that gives loot after it dies in middle of LA. **Don't you get enough combat satisfaction in fractals or raids?** I just don't get you people. To me whacking mobs becomes boring quickly, especially when I'm not there to whack anything. In personal stories, combat is (to me) just a way to gate my progression. What is so fun wasting time on AI? Even punching a bag irl is more understandable because it affects your body in positive ways. Maybe I just wouldn't be able to understand. Either way... what you said goes both ways.

> > >

> >

> > This is not meant to be sarcastic at all, but this statement really makes me wonder. Do you think this here is the right genre for you? There are loads of enjoyable games that center around exploration and similar concepts without any combat. Maybe you should play those instead of a fantasy MMORPG with a focus on conflict?

>

> Yes, probably. But it's not that simple for me. I don't play the MMORPG genre for the sake of combat... and **I'm going to be a hypocrite and say I don't entirely despise combat.** After one-shotting mobs for a while in old content WoW, yeah, I want to go back to current content and face some difficulty. Same I could do in GW2, crawl back to core Tyria (and I actually did, started a new character).

> Let's go back a few years. Like 15 or so. My first MMORPG was RuneScape(2). The repetitive grinding was of course boring but chatting with other people made it tolerable. Quests were fun and still are. But my peanut brain couldn't crack some puzzles so I often ended up following a quest guide. I found a friend who introduced me to Maplestory. That game is a grindfest. However at that time leveling was mostly dependant on party quests, doing a mission with other people. It got me hooked anyway and I wasted time and money on it. Surprisingly the fun part for me of the game became the combos that I do when I grind mobs. Yes. However if I were to play it again (and I kitten hope not) I would watch My Little Pony from Netflix because grinding is very repetitive.

> On the internet I eventually came across WoW memes. The first image consisted of a person with acne and something negative about the person playing it. Not a great introduction to the game but I enjoyed it. I had fun chatting with other people in guild... just not always. I still remember I heard from another member the guild master said I'm annoying.

> Anyway again I heard from internet friend about this new game that is GW2. When it came out I bought a copy to myself and to a person I never met before... who later became my close friend. I don't really remember much from the beginning but I stopped playing, came back, stopped playing. Sometimes played seriously. My GW2 playing history is not very consistent. I did play alot this year though, and surpassed myself and started doing the story and maxed out HoT masteries even.

>

> I loved Wildstar and Maplestory 2, both games with lovely housing systems, but they were shut down.

>

> So to my point... I've played MMORPGS for majority of my life and... I'm in a point of life where I don't know what to do. Everything is technically fine but I don't have dreams or purpose or anything. I probably have the possibility of getting the education I want, but I don't know what I want. WoW and GW2 (well, I guess Maplestory is as well, and Runescape that I haven't played in the longest time) I'm most familiar with. Maybe the apartment I live in doesn't feel like home, it's still so new and I sometimes wonder how did I end up here even though it's been 2 years already, but **there is a soothing effect from playing games with familiar virtual realities.**

>

> I don't want to quit, I can do combat, but I just get quickly tired of fighting for life all the time, every minute, every hour, every day. Maybe I got burnt out on GW2, when I switched to WoW everything seemed very chill in comparison - and that's probably because I am doing old content right now, but also leveling up in it. I tried the new expansion, well depending on the place it can be aggro happy or peaceful. It's not, however, aggro happy absolutely everywhere, like in PoF. It's possible to mine a node in peace sometimes. And I don't have to kill a battallion of mobs, just one mob. Makes it seem friendlier for sure.

> I know I will return to GW2 and I still login for my daily reward, I might do a heart, but that's that right now for me.

>

> I can't drop these games I've played for so long. Not all of them anyway. I enjoy character customization the most and of course wish GW2 would recieve more of that as well. The combat... I can live with it, I just don't want it to be so extreme all the time. The way it is, I can live with that too, but then I can't play GW2 as the only game endlessly. Well... maybe nobody can, if that's all they do in a day. I guess it's normal.

> I enjoy the story, assuming it's good. I used to enjoy chatting with other people but now I'm anxious about it and try to not invest my personal feelings anywhere. It's nice to see others getting along though. There are things I like about both games.

> Hope this helped you to understand why I keep playing. Maybe I could try to explain more but I think I've spent at least half an hour writing this it will have to do.

>

> TL:DR;

> In any case I can live with combat but if it's harder I burn out faster, and if it's too easy it can become boring. (So it can be hard to determine what is the good difficulty, and perhaps it would be better to let people select their own difficulty at any given time.)

 

Here is something that a lot of the mmos youve mentioned have in common. They all have an easily identifiable gear score or damage score, so when you get a new piece of gear, you can make informed decisions at a glance and know if you're getting an upgrade or downgrade. Gw2 does not really present any of that information to you easily. It is very easy to gear and build your character incorrectly and be completely oblivious that you did so. The difference between the average player and top tier raiders is 10x according to a dev despite having the same tier of gear. Imagine if you magically dealt 10x damage right now. Would you still be struggling with open world? Thats the reality that a lot of us veterans are trying to tell you. Anything thats not a champion or bounty will basically melt in open world. You just need proper builds and proper stat combos on your gear.

[battledrone.8315]

> @"Shikaru.7618" said:

> > @"Pockethole.5031" said:

> > > @"Tiilimon.6094" said:

> > > You can opt out of combat in OW by playing stealth builds very easily, capped concentration should let you mine a couple nodes as a thief or scrapper and should even give you time to mount up before stealth fades.

> > >

> > > As combat is the only reason why we even put clothes on our characters in this game, I find it very strange that getting into brawls is perceived as a problem anyways, isn't that kinda the point of the game?

> > >

> > > Are you sure that a combat focused MMO is what you actually even want to play if you find it boring?

> > >

> > > I've met a lot of people in Elite Dangerous who actually wish to play Universe Sandbox but for some reason buy a game where all the space ships come equipped with weaponry when bought, then complain when anything or anyone attacks their ship. This reminds me a bit of that.

> >

> >

> > > @"Algreg.3629" said:

> > > > @"Pockethole.5031" said:

> > > > > @"SunTzu.4513" said:

> > > > >For me personaly would be a down tuning of HP or DPS deald by the mobs result in maybe quitting the game.

> > > >

> > > > And of course, I'm the opposite. I effortlessly hopped to WoW after experiencing PoF (and of course because new expansion launched). I still play but not as much. If open world mobs were to be made harder like many repliers seem to dream of (which means 1/2 playerbase dying most of the time to the mob, not just downing, outright dying), I wouldn't be able to enjoy open world anymore. Don't you get tired of whacking mobs all the time? Might as well put a target dummy or combat simulation that gives loot after it dies in middle of LA. **Don't you get enough combat satisfaction in fractals or raids?** I just don't get you people. To me whacking mobs becomes boring quickly, especially when I'm not there to whack anything. In personal stories, combat is (to me) just a way to gate my progression. What is so fun wasting time on AI? Even punching a bag irl is more understandable because it affects your body in positive ways. Maybe I just wouldn't be able to understand. Either way... what you said goes both ways.

> > > >

> > >

> > > This is not meant to be sarcastic at all, but this statement really makes me wonder. Do you think this here is the right genre for you? There are loads of enjoyable games that center around exploration and similar concepts without any combat. Maybe you should play those instead of a fantasy MMORPG with a focus on conflict?

> >

> > Yes, probably. But it's not that simple for me. I don't play the MMORPG genre for the sake of combat... and **I'm going to be a hypocrite and say I don't entirely despise combat.** After one-shotting mobs for a while in old content WoW, yeah, I want to go back to current content and face some difficulty. Same I could do in GW2, crawl back to core Tyria (and I actually did, started a new character).

> > Let's go back a few years. Like 15 or so. My first MMORPG was RuneScape(2). The repetitive grinding was of course boring but chatting with other people made it tolerable. Quests were fun and still are. But my peanut brain couldn't crack some puzzles so I often ended up following a quest guide. I found a friend who introduced me to Maplestory. That game is a grindfest. However at that time leveling was mostly dependant on party quests, doing a mission with other people. It got me hooked anyway and I wasted time and money on it. Surprisingly the fun part for me of the game became the combos that I do when I grind mobs. Yes. However if I were to play it again (and I kitten hope not) I would watch My Little Pony from Netflix because grinding is very repetitive.

> > On the internet I eventually came across WoW memes. The first image consisted of a person with acne and something negative about the person playing it. Not a great introduction to the game but I enjoyed it. I had fun chatting with other people in guild... just not always. I still remember I heard from another member the guild master said I'm annoying.

> > Anyway again I heard from internet friend about this new game that is GW2. When it came out I bought a copy to myself and to a person I never met before... who later became my close friend. I don't really remember much from the beginning but I stopped playing, came back, stopped playing. Sometimes played seriously. My GW2 playing history is not very consistent. I did play alot this year though, and surpassed myself and started doing the story and maxed out HoT masteries even.

> >

> > I loved Wildstar and Maplestory 2, both games with lovely housing systems, but they were shut down.

> >

> > So to my point... I've played MMORPGS for majority of my life and... I'm in a point of life where I don't know what to do. Everything is technically fine but I don't have dreams or purpose or anything. I probably have the possibility of getting the education I want, but I don't know what I want. WoW and GW2 (well, I guess Maplestory is as well, and Runescape that I haven't played in the longest time) I'm most familiar with. Maybe the apartment I live in doesn't feel like home, it's still so new and I sometimes wonder how did I end up here even though it's been 2 years already, but **there is a soothing effect from playing games with familiar virtual realities.**

> >

> > I don't want to quit, I can do combat, but I just get quickly tired of fighting for life all the time, every minute, every hour, every day. Maybe I got burnt out on GW2, when I switched to WoW everything seemed very chill in comparison - and that's probably because I am doing old content right now, but also leveling up in it. I tried the new expansion, well depending on the place it can be aggro happy or peaceful. It's not, however, aggro happy absolutely everywhere, like in PoF. It's possible to mine a node in peace sometimes. And I don't have to kill a battallion of mobs, just one mob. Makes it seem friendlier for sure.

> > I know I will return to GW2 and I still login for my daily reward, I might do a heart, but that's that right now for me.

> >

> > I can't drop these games I've played for so long. Not all of them anyway. I enjoy character customization the most and of course wish GW2 would recieve more of that as well. The combat... I can live with it, I just don't want it to be so extreme all the time. The way it is, I can live with that too, but then I can't play GW2 as the only game endlessly. Well... maybe nobody can, if that's all they do in a day. I guess it's normal.

> > I enjoy the story, assuming it's good. I used to enjoy chatting with other people but now I'm anxious about it and try to not invest my personal feelings anywhere. It's nice to see others getting along though. There are things I like about both games.

> > Hope this helped you to understand why I keep playing. Maybe I could try to explain more but I think I've spent at least half an hour writing this it will have to do.

> >

> > TL:DR;

> > In any case I can live with combat but if it's harder I burn out faster, and if it's too easy it can become boring. (So it can be hard to determine what is the good difficulty, and perhaps it would be better to let people select their own difficulty at any given time.)

>

> Here is something that a lot of the mmos youve mentioned have in common. They all have an easily identifiable gear score or damage score, so when you get a new piece of gear, you can make informed decisions at a glance and know if you're getting an upgrade or downgrade. Gw2 does not really present any of that information to you easily. It is very easy to gear and build your character incorrectly and be completely oblivious that you did so. The difference between the average player and top tier raiders is 10x according to a dev despite having the same tier of gear. Imagine if you magically dealt 10x damage right now. Would you still be struggling with open world? Thats the reality that a lot of us veterans are trying to tell you. Anything thats not a champion or bounty will basically melt in open world. You just need proper builds and proper stat combos on your gear.

 

and those 90% difference is one of the primary reasons for this problem. by scaling the game to the top 10 %, they basically flipped of all the normal players.

not much casualism left there. it will hurt them in the wallet too, who do you think they are making the next expansion for?

[Steve The Cynic.3217]

> @"Shikaru.7618" said:

> Here is something that a lot of the mmos youve mentioned have in common. They all have an easily identifiable gear score or damage score, so when you get a new piece of gear, you can make informed decisions at a glance and know if you're getting an upgrade or downgrade. Gw2 does not really present any of that information to you easily. It is very easy to gear and build your character incorrectly and be completely oblivious that you did so. The difference between the average player and top tier raiders is 10x according to a dev despite having the same tier of gear. Imagine if you magically dealt 10x damage right now. Would you still be struggling with open world? Thats the reality that a lot of us veterans are trying to tell you. Anything thats not a champion or bounty will basically melt in open world. You just need proper builds and proper stat combos on your gear.

 

OK, but how would you construct such a gear score (SWTOR calls it "Item Rating", for reference) in GW2? Would it have to show bias toward certain stats? If so, why? (I have a Reaper build that's based on *Valkyrie* gear, ffs. With all that Vitality, a stat-biased gear score would probably mark it down, but it's almost indestructible and still delivers substantial damage.) Then again, in most games, the gear score (whatever it's called) is some way short of the full answer, since it almost never identifies gearsets that are weak because of an improper stat mix.

 

And in general, this thread reminds me of something I said in [another thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1340112#Comment_1340112) ...

 

> Game difficulty should not be set up for the wilfully obtuse.

 

There is a very wide range of player-skill in any MMORPG, but while general content must take into account the less-skilled players, the players who will not learn how to play (not talking learning disabilities here, but wilful obtuseness) should not be part of that analysis.

[battledrone.8315]

> @"Steve The Cynic.3217" said:

> > @"Shikaru.7618" said:

> > Here is something that a lot of the mmos youve mentioned have in common. They all have an easily identifiable gear score or damage score, so when you get a new piece of gear, you can make informed decisions at a glance and know if you're getting an upgrade or downgrade. Gw2 does not really present any of that information to you easily. It is very easy to gear and build your character incorrectly and be completely oblivious that you did so. The difference between the average player and top tier raiders is 10x according to a dev despite having the same tier of gear. Imagine if you magically dealt 10x damage right now. Would you still be struggling with open world? Thats the reality that a lot of us veterans are trying to tell you. Anything thats not a champion or bounty will basically melt in open world. You just need proper builds and proper stat combos on your gear.

>

> OK, but how would you construct such a gear score (SWTOR calls it "Item Rating", for reference) in GW2? Would it have to show bias toward certain stats? If so, why? (I have a Reaper build that's based on *Valkyrie* gear, kitten. With all that Vitality, a stat-biased gear score would probably mark it down, but it's almost indestructible and still delivers substantial damage.) Then again, in most games, the gear score (whatever it's called) is some way short of the full answer, since it almost never identifies gearsets that are weak because of an improper stat mix.

>

> And in general, this thread reminds me of something I said in [another thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1340112#Comment_1340112) ...

>

> > Game difficulty should not be set up for the wilfully obtuse.

>

> There is a very wide range of player-skill in any MMORPG, but while general content must take into account the less-skilled players, the players who will not learn how to play (not talking learning disabilities here, but wilful obtuseness) should not be part of that analysis.

 

if i have to go to another website to find a build, then the game has failed. if they let me get to max level with "wrong "build, then the game has failed

if they dont let me play my own build, then there is no point in playing an RPG at all

[Pockethole.5031]

> @"Shikaru.7618" said:

> Here is something that a lot of the mmos youve mentioned have in common. They all have an easily identifiable gear score or damage score, so when you get a new piece of gear, you can make informed decisions at a glance and know if you're getting an upgrade or downgrade. Gw2 does not really present any of that information to you easily. It is very easy to gear and build your character incorrectly and be completely oblivious that you did so. The difference between the average player and top tier raiders is 10x according to a dev despite having the same tier of gear. Imagine if you magically dealt 10x damage right now. Would you still be struggling with open world? Thats the reality that a lot of us veterans are trying to tell you. Anything thats not a champion or bounty will basically melt in open world. You just need proper builds and proper stat combos on your gear.

 

Alright, that's it.

Why do you people insist so much that I don't know how to play GW2?

**I told you many times, I know how to play. If you can't believe it just stop insisting.**

I think I will take a short vacation from this forum so don't be offended if I'm not replying.

Good bye for now.

[SunTzu.4513]

>and those 90% difference is one of the primary reasons for this problem. by scaling the game to the top 10 %, they basically flipped of all the normal players.

not much casualism left there. it will hurt them in the wallet too, who do you think they are making the next expansion for?

>if i have to go to another website to find a build, then the game has failed. if they let me get to max level with "wrong "build, then the game has failed

if they dont let me play my own build, then there is no point in playing an RPG at all

 

But GW2 delivers greatly to ''i play how/what i want'' players. You can beat all OW Stuff including every LS and basic group content up to T3 Fractals with any build you want. The only difference to a tailor made build for this type of content is that in the most time it's just more time intensive. The most important thing is the individual player skill in this game because we have no gear progression. Give one player who don't know anything about the class, mobs, skillmechaniks and breakbars a full ascendet equipped optimized build and another player who has knowledge of all these thing a not optimized build with green gear and he will easily outperform the metabuild just by be the better player.

 

That's why i love GW2 so much. You can do everything how you wanna do it only the top Tier content ''needs'' meta stuff to be done. And even there you can run a cm or raid with non meta builds or teams it will just take longer. You don't need to get a lucky gear drop. You can really easy obtain bis gear from that point on only your skill is important if something is hard or easy.

 

I have a group of friends we played DnD together when we where young. In those days we have a RPG group in Tyria. We all run flavour builds. I play a supportive human knightish/paladin like guardian with commanders gear and ministrel trinkets Mace/Sword/Shield as weapons and only shouts. The other player's run also rpg builds. We have done everything beside raids with this build comps. Once a month we do run a cm fractal. One run takes as long as a full daily run on a Metacomp but is perfectly doable.

[Algreg.3629]

> @"Pockethole.5031" said:

 

> Yes, probably. But it's not that simple for me. I don't play the MMORPG genre for the sake of combat... and **I'm going to be a hypocrite and say I don't entirely despise combat.** After one-shotting mobs for a while in old content WoW, yeah, I want to go back to current content and face some difficulty. Same I could do in GW2, crawl back to core Tyria (and I actually did, started a new character).

> Let's go back a few years. Like 15 or so. My first MMORPG was RuneScape(2). The repetitive grinding was of course boring but chatting with other people made it tolerable. Quests were fun and still are. But my peanut brain couldn't crack some puzzles so I often ended up following a quest guide. I found a friend who introduced me to Maplestory. That game is a grindfest. However at that time leveling was mostly dependant on party quests, doing a mission with other people. It got me hooked anyway and I wasted time and money on it. Surprisingly the fun part for me of the game became the combos that I do when I grind mobs. Yes. However if I were to play it again (and I kitten hope not) I would watch My Little Pony from Netflix because grinding is very repetitive.

> On the internet I eventually came across WoW memes. The first image consisted of a person with acne and something negative about the person playing it. Not a great introduction to the game but I enjoyed it. I had fun chatting with other people in guild... just not always. I still remember I heard from another member the guild master said I'm annoying.

> Anyway again I heard from internet friend about this new game that is GW2. When it came out I bought a copy to myself and to a person I never met before... who later became my close friend. I don't really remember much from the beginning but I stopped playing, came back, stopped playing. Sometimes played seriously. My GW2 playing history is not very consistent. I did play alot this year though, and surpassed myself and started doing the story and maxed out HoT masteries even.

>

> I loved Wildstar and Maplestory 2, both games with lovely housing systems, but they were shut down.

>

> So to my point... I've played MMORPGS for majority of my life and... I'm in a point of life where I don't know what to do. Everything is technically fine but I don't have dreams or purpose or anything. I probably have the possibility of getting the education I want, but I don't know what I want. WoW and GW2 (well, I guess Maplestory is as well, and Runescape that I haven't played in the longest time) I'm most familiar with. Maybe the apartment I live in doesn't feel like home, it's still so new and I sometimes wonder how did I end up here even though it's been 2 years already, but **there is a soothing effect from playing games with familiar virtual realities.**

>

> I don't want to quit, I can do combat, but I just get quickly tired of fighting for life all the time, every minute, every hour, every day. Maybe I got burnt out on GW2, when I switched to WoW everything seemed very chill in comparison - and that's probably because I am doing old content right now, but also leveling up in it. I tried the new expansion, well depending on the place it can be aggro happy or peaceful. It's not, however, aggro happy absolutely everywhere, like in PoF. It's possible to mine a node in peace sometimes. And I don't have to kill a battallion of mobs, just one mob. Makes it seem friendlier for sure.

> I know I will return to GW2 and I still login for my daily reward, I might do a heart, but that's that right now for me.

>

> I can't drop these games I've played for so long. Not all of them anyway. I enjoy character customization the most and of course wish GW2 would recieve more of that as well. The combat... I can live with it, I just don't want it to be so extreme all the time. The way it is, I can live with that too, but then I can't play GW2 as the only game endlessly. Well... maybe nobody can, if that's all they do in a day. I guess it's normal.

> I enjoy the story, assuming it's good. I used to enjoy chatting with other people but now I'm anxious about it and try to not invest my personal feelings anywhere. It's nice to see others getting along though. There are things I like about both games.

> Hope this helped you to understand why I keep playing. Maybe I could try to explain more but I think I've spent at least half an hour writing this it will have to do.

>

> TL:DR;

> In any case I can live with combat but if it's harder I burn out faster, and if it's too easy it can become boring. (So it can be hard to determine what is the good difficulty, and perhaps it would be better to let people select their own difficulty at any given time.)

 

Ok, your post really... I'd even say spoke to me. So let's drop that "casual vs. hardcore" BS, droni's et. al. perpetual agenda and my obnoxious forum personality for a moment. Not too long ago, I faced similar uncertain times. Naturally, I turned to the things that used to bring me enjoyment and excitement, forgetting about the daily struggles for a while, namely MMORPG.

 

But it did not work, not at all. Every quest, every encounter felt like slowing me down, holding me back, from... what exactly? I did not really understand. And I do not mean in terms of difficulty (guess I would call myself a somewhat above average gamer overall). I don't know, I always felt in a rush, like there must be some release somewhere ahead. Also, I barely had my mind and senses focused on the game, it seems like some peculiar form of dissociation looking back now. Always driven, half-numb, not really knowing why I was playing anyway, this was my gaming experience then. Maybe I was projecting the uncertainty of my then life into the game.

 

Anyway, it did not help and I certainly did not enjoy playing. I needed to take a step back. Whenever I sat down in front of my PC and was about to click that desktop shortcut, I asked myself, do I REALLY want to play just now? Turned out, most of the time the answer was no. I did not stop playing games completely, but browsed steam for very different ones, tried various indie games, a lot of them real crap, with some real gems among them. Those games did not give me the feeling of having to get ahead anywhere. And I certainly did play a lot less.

 

You know what I often did instead? NOTHING (not in a slothful kinda way, my life wasn't without opportunities or paid work then, just without certainty in general) - really nothing! Most of us never take the time to just shut down for a few hours, not even thinking and pondering. Stopping MMORPG really gave me the opportunity to calm my mind that in retrospect had been in perpetual turmoil for months. So I do not know if your situation is similar to the one I was in, but maybe you recognize a few similar aspects.

 

But enough of that... yeah, casuals, you know... :)

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > @"Steve The Cynic.3217" said:

> > > @"Shikaru.7618" said:

> > > Here is something that a lot of the mmos youve mentioned have in common. They all have an easily identifiable gear score or damage score, so when you get a new piece of gear, you can make informed decisions at a glance and know if you're getting an upgrade or downgrade. Gw2 does not really present any of that information to you easily. It is very easy to gear and build your character incorrectly and be completely oblivious that you did so. The difference between the average player and top tier raiders is 10x according to a dev despite having the same tier of gear. Imagine if you magically dealt 10x damage right now. Would you still be struggling with open world? Thats the reality that a lot of us veterans are trying to tell you. Anything thats not a champion or bounty will basically melt in open world. You just need proper builds and proper stat combos on your gear.

> >

> > OK, but how would you construct such a gear score (SWTOR calls it "Item Rating", for reference) in GW2? Would it have to show bias toward certain stats? If so, why? (I have a Reaper build that's based on *Valkyrie* gear, kitten. With all that Vitality, a stat-biased gear score would probably mark it down, but it's almost indestructible and still delivers substantial damage.) Then again, in most games, the gear score (whatever it's called) is some way short of the full answer, since it almost never identifies gearsets that are weak because of an improper stat mix.

> >

> > And in general, this thread reminds me of something I said in [another thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1340112#Comment_1340112) ...

> >

> > > Game difficulty should not be set up for the wilfully obtuse.

> >

> > There is a very wide range of player-skill in any MMORPG, but while general content must take into account the less-skilled players, the players who will not learn how to play (not talking learning disabilities here, but wilful obtuseness) should not be part of that analysis.

>

> if i have to go to another website to find a build, then the game has failed. if they let me get to max level with "wrong "build, then the game has failed

> if they dont let me play my own build, then there is no point in playing an RPG at all

 

I would say that if you can throw darts at the skill tree with a blindfold on and still succeed, then the game has failed. GW2's system provides players the freedom to build however they like. This as opposed to a game like WoW, where you simply pick a class and a role and every choice you make falls within those parameters and only the latest content presents a challenge if you keep your gear current. GW2 lets you choose stats and traits with anti-synergy and your item level can't save you if you play like a potato. Pick your poison. I think both systems have their pros and cons.

 

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"SunTzu.4513" said:

> >and those 90% difference is one of the primary reasons for this problem. by scaling the game to the top 10 %, they basically flipped of all the normal players.

> not much casualism left there. it will hurt them in the wallet too, who do you think they are making the next expansion for?

> >if i have to go to another website to find a build, then the game has failed. if they let me get to max level with "wrong "build, then the game has failed

> if they dont let me play my own build, then there is no point in playing an RPG at all

>

> But GW2 delivers greatly to ''i play how/what i want'' players. You can beat all OW Stuff including every LS and basic group content up to T3 Fractals with any build you want. The only difference to a tailor made build for this type of content is that in the most time it's just more time intensive. The most important thing is the individual player skill in this game because we have no gear progression. Give one player who don't know anything about the class, mobs, skillmechaniks and breakbars a full ascendet equipped optimized build and another player who has knowledge of all these thing a not optimized build with green gear and he will easily outperform the metabuild just by be the better player.

>

> That's why i love GW2 so much. You can do everything how you wanna do it only the top Tier content ''needs'' meta stuff to be done. And even there you can run a cm or raid with non meta builds or teams it will just take longer. You don't need to get a lucky gear drop. You can really easy obtain bis gear from that point on only your skill is important if something is hard or easy.

>

> I have a group of friends we played DnD together when we where young. In those days we have a RPG group in Tyria. We all run flavour builds. I play a supportive human knightish/paladin like guardian with commanders gear and ministrel trinkets Mace/Sword/Shield as weapons and only shouts. The other player's run also rpg builds. We have done everything beside raids with this build comps. Once a month we do run a cm fractal. One run takes as long as a full daily run on a Metacomp but is perfectly doable.

 

I have to agree that there is plenty of room to play the way you want to play. I build and play for the things I like to do most, which is solo play open world/story, WvW roaming, unranked PvP. In terms of group PvE I will do strikes if my guild happens to be doing them and I like to do my T4 fractal dailies sometimes, usually via LFG. But raiding and CMs I have only done a little bit.

 

Given that, I play a roamer-style build that is tough as nails while dealing solid damage. It's resilient enough to survive all of the HoT champions solo, while also dealing enough damage to take most of them down in less than 60 seconds. The burst and sustained damage is adequate for strikes and T4 fractals, even CMs, but not appropriate for something like a daily static (which is fine, because I've never been a part of one!).

 

I can use almost the same build and play style at plat level in PvP or go solo roam with it (I'm well over rank 2000 there), too. It's not meta for anything. I don't even use anything close to the recommended rotation, stats, or even trait lines for my class. But I have at least some idea of what I'm doing and I've made these choices for a reason to come up with a play style that I enjoy and does what I need it to do. To me, that's the magic of GW2's "do whatever you want" method of handling buildcraft.

[battledrone.8315]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > > @"Steve The Cynic.3217" said:

> > > > @"Shikaru.7618" said:

> > > > Here is something that a lot of the mmos youve mentioned have in common. They all have an easily identifiable gear score or damage score, so when you get a new piece of gear, you can make informed decisions at a glance and know if you're getting an upgrade or downgrade. Gw2 does not really present any of that information to you easily. It is very easy to gear and build your character incorrectly and be completely oblivious that you did so. The difference between the average player and top tier raiders is 10x according to a dev despite having the same tier of gear. Imagine if you magically dealt 10x damage right now. Would you still be struggling with open world? Thats the reality that a lot of us veterans are trying to tell you. Anything thats not a champion or bounty will basically melt in open world. You just need proper builds and proper stat combos on your gear.

> > >

> > > OK, but how would you construct such a gear score (SWTOR calls it "Item Rating", for reference) in GW2? Would it have to show bias toward certain stats? If so, why? (I have a Reaper build that's based on *Valkyrie* gear, kitten. With all that Vitality, a stat-biased gear score would probably mark it down, but it's almost indestructible and still delivers substantial damage.) Then again, in most games, the gear score (whatever it's called) is some way short of the full answer, since it almost never identifies gearsets that are weak because of an improper stat mix.

> > >

> > > And in general, this thread reminds me of something I said in [another thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1340112#Comment_1340112) ...

> > >

> > > > Game difficulty should not be set up for the wilfully obtuse.

> > >

> > > There is a very wide range of player-skill in any MMORPG, but while general content must take into account the less-skilled players, the players who will not learn how to play (not talking learning disabilities here, but wilful obtuseness) should not be part of that analysis.

> >

> > if i have to go to another website to find a build, then the game has failed. if they let me get to max level with "wrong "build, then the game has failed

> > if they dont let me play my own build, then there is no point in playing an RPG at all

>

> I would say that if you can throw darts at the skill tree with a blindfold on and still succeed, then the game has failed. GW2's system provides players the freedom to build however they like. This as opposed to a game like WoW, where you simply pick a class and a role and every choice you make falls within those parameters and only the latest content presents a challenge if you keep your gear current. GW2 lets you choose stats and traits with anti-synergy and your item level can't save you if you play like a potato. Pick your poison. I think both systems have their pros and cons.

>

>

 

so its like a buffet, but you are only supposed to mix it like they intended? yea, that went well, didnt it? they either need to revamp the whole system,

or at least make some tutorials on buildcrafting. the steam crowd is gonna rip it apart in reviews, if they dont. oddly enough, EVE was about the same age before they made a proper tutorial too.

[battledrone.8315]

> @"SunTzu.4513" said:

> >and those 90% difference is one of the primary reasons for this problem. by scaling the game to the top 10 %, they basically flipped of all the normal players.

> not much casualism left there. it will hurt them in the wallet too, who do you think they are making the next expansion for?

> >if i have to go to another website to find a build, then the game has failed. if they let me get to max level with "wrong "build, then the game has failed

> if they dont let me play my own build, then there is no point in playing an RPG at all

>

> But GW2 delivers greatly to ''i play how/what i want'' players. You can beat all OW Stuff including every LS and basic group content up to T3 Fractals with any build you want. The only difference to a tailor made build for this type of content is that in the most time it's just more time intensive. The most important thing is the individual player skill in this game because we have no gear progression. Give one player who don't know anything about the class, mobs, skillmechaniks and breakbars a full ascendet equipped optimized build and another player who has knowledge of all these thing a not optimized build with green gear and he will easily outperform the metabuild just by be the better player.

>

> That's why i love GW2 so much. You can do everything how you wanna do it only the top Tier content ''needs'' meta stuff to be done. And even there you can run a cm or raid with non meta builds or teams it will just take longer. You don't need to get a lucky gear drop. You can really easy obtain bis gear from that point on only your skill is important if something is hard or easy.

>

> I have a group of friends we played DnD together when we where young. In those days we have a RPG group in Tyria. We all run flavour builds. I play a supportive human knightish/paladin like guardian with commanders gear and ministrel trinkets Mace/Sword/Shield as weapons and only shouts. The other player's run also rpg builds. We have done everything beside raids with this build comps. Once a month we do run a cm fractal. One run takes as long as a full daily run on a Metacomp but is perfectly doable.

 

you can do that, because youre obviously a much better player than me. i would have to grind for a very long time, just to find a functional build.

and even IF i found one, there is simply no more content, that i enjoy to play. so we are talking about a lot of work with a very questionable return.

no thanks.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > > > @"Steve The Cynic.3217" said:

> > > > > @"Shikaru.7618" said:

> > > > > Here is something that a lot of the mmos youve mentioned have in common. They all have an easily identifiable gear score or damage score, so when you get a new piece of gear, you can make informed decisions at a glance and know if you're getting an upgrade or downgrade. Gw2 does not really present any of that information to you easily. It is very easy to gear and build your character incorrectly and be completely oblivious that you did so. The difference between the average player and top tier raiders is 10x according to a dev despite having the same tier of gear. Imagine if you magically dealt 10x damage right now. Would you still be struggling with open world? Thats the reality that a lot of us veterans are trying to tell you. Anything thats not a champion or bounty will basically melt in open world. You just need proper builds and proper stat combos on your gear.

> > > >

> > > > OK, but how would you construct such a gear score (SWTOR calls it "Item Rating", for reference) in GW2? Would it have to show bias toward certain stats? If so, why? (I have a Reaper build that's based on *Valkyrie* gear, kitten. With all that Vitality, a stat-biased gear score would probably mark it down, but it's almost indestructible and still delivers substantial damage.) Then again, in most games, the gear score (whatever it's called) is some way short of the full answer, since it almost never identifies gearsets that are weak because of an improper stat mix.

> > > >

> > > > And in general, this thread reminds me of something I said in [another thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1340112#Comment_1340112) ...

> > > >

> > > > > Game difficulty should not be set up for the wilfully obtuse.

> > > >

> > > > There is a very wide range of player-skill in any MMORPG, but while general content must take into account the less-skilled players, the players who will not learn how to play (not talking learning disabilities here, but wilful obtuseness) should not be part of that analysis.

> > >

> > > if i have to go to another website to find a build, then the game has failed. if they let me get to max level with "wrong "build, then the game has failed

> > > if they dont let me play my own build, then there is no point in playing an RPG at all

> >

> > I would say that if you can throw darts at the skill tree with a blindfold on and still succeed, then the game has failed. GW2's system provides players the freedom to build however they like. This as opposed to a game like WoW, where you simply pick a class and a role and every choice you make falls within those parameters and only the latest content presents a challenge if you keep your gear current. GW2 lets you choose stats and traits with anti-synergy and your item level can't save you if you play like a potato. Pick your poison. I think both systems have their pros and cons.

> >

> >

>

> so its like a buffet, but you are only supposed to mix it like they intended? yea, that went well, didnt it? they either need to revamp the whole system,

> or at least make some tutorials on buildcrafting. the steam crowd is gonna rip it apart in reviews, if they dont. oddly enough, EVE was about the same age before they made a proper tutorial too.

 

You can quite literally build however you like. The system has no hard limits to prevent you from, for example, designing a hybrid DPS/healer that deals low damage while providing more healing than is necessary in solo play but also not enough healing/support to be useful in group play. You'll probably find yourself complaining about "HP sponges", failing DPS check mechanics, and getting into arguments with other players in groups if you use such a build, though.

 

I'm not opposed to having better information, but I think the system is too complex for an effective tutorial. Resources like the forums, the wiki, and various fan sites do the deep diving required to really refine your understanding of buildcraft. If that's too much for some players to handle, perhaps an MMO where players typically play for years is not the best format for them?

[battledrone.8315]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > > > > @"Steve The Cynic.3217" said:

> > > > > > @"Shikaru.7618" said:

> > > > > > Here is something that a lot of the mmos youve mentioned have in common. They all have an easily identifiable gear score or damage score, so when you get a new piece of gear, you can make informed decisions at a glance and know if you're getting an upgrade or downgrade. Gw2 does not really present any of that information to you easily. It is very easy to gear and build your character incorrectly and be completely oblivious that you did so. The difference between the average player and top tier raiders is 10x according to a dev despite having the same tier of gear. Imagine if you magically dealt 10x damage right now. Would you still be struggling with open world? Thats the reality that a lot of us veterans are trying to tell you. Anything thats not a champion or bounty will basically melt in open world. You just need proper builds and proper stat combos on your gear.

> > > > >

> > > > > OK, but how would you construct such a gear score (SWTOR calls it "Item Rating", for reference) in GW2? Would it have to show bias toward certain stats? If so, why? (I have a Reaper build that's based on *Valkyrie* gear, kitten. With all that Vitality, a stat-biased gear score would probably mark it down, but it's almost indestructible and still delivers substantial damage.) Then again, in most games, the gear score (whatever it's called) is some way short of the full answer, since it almost never identifies gearsets that are weak because of an improper stat mix.

> > > > >

> > > > > And in general, this thread reminds me of something I said in [another thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1340112#Comment_1340112) ...

> > > > >

> > > > > > Game difficulty should not be set up for the wilfully obtuse.

> > > > >

> > > > > There is a very wide range of player-skill in any MMORPG, but while general content must take into account the less-skilled players, the players who will not learn how to play (not talking learning disabilities here, but wilful obtuseness) should not be part of that analysis.

> > > >

> > > > if i have to go to another website to find a build, then the game has failed. if they let me get to max level with "wrong "build, then the game has failed

> > > > if they dont let me play my own build, then there is no point in playing an RPG at all

> > >

> > > I would say that if you can throw darts at the skill tree with a blindfold on and still succeed, then the game has failed. GW2's system provides players the freedom to build however they like. This as opposed to a game like WoW, where you simply pick a class and a role and every choice you make falls within those parameters and only the latest content presents a challenge if you keep your gear current. GW2 lets you choose stats and traits with anti-synergy and your item level can't save you if you play like a potato. Pick your poison. I think both systems have their pros and cons.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > so its like a buffet, but you are only supposed to mix it like they intended? yea, that went well, didnt it? they either need to revamp the whole system,

> > or at least make some tutorials on buildcrafting. the steam crowd is gonna rip it apart in reviews, if they dont. oddly enough, EVE was about the same age before they made a proper tutorial too.

>

> You can quite literally build however you like. The system has no hard limits to prevent you from, for example, designing a hybrid DPS/healer that deals low damage while providing more healing than is necessary in solo play but also not enough healing/support to be useful in group play. You'll probably find yourself complaining about "HP sponges", failing DPS check mechanics, and getting into arguments with other players in groups if you use such a build, though.

>

> I'm not opposed to having better information, but I think the system is too complex for an effective tutorial. Resources like the forums, the wiki, and various fan sites do the deep diving required to really refine your understanding of buildcraft. If that's too much for some players to handle, perhaps an MMO where players typically play for years is not the best format for them?

 

lol, 10 years of STO, 8 years dcuo, wow, FF ARR, CoH, SWTOR, wildstar, EVE, BDO, LOTRO, RIFT, AION, warframe, TERA, and the list goes on and on

if its a big mmo, theres a good chance, that i have played it at some point. still subbed to dcuo, but not playing as much anymore, due to burnout

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > @"SunTzu.4513" said:

> > >and those 90% difference is one of the primary reasons for this problem. by scaling the game to the top 10 %, they basically flipped of all the normal players.

> > not much casualism left there. it will hurt them in the wallet too, who do you think they are making the next expansion for?

> > >if i have to go to another website to find a build, then the game has failed. if they let me get to max level with "wrong "build, then the game has failed

> > if they dont let me play my own build, then there is no point in playing an RPG at all

> >

> > But GW2 delivers greatly to ''i play how/what i want'' players. You can beat all OW Stuff including every LS and basic group content up to T3 Fractals with any build you want. The only difference to a tailor made build for this type of content is that in the most time it's just more time intensive. The most important thing is the individual player skill in this game because we have no gear progression. Give one player who don't know anything about the class, mobs, skillmechaniks and breakbars a full ascendet equipped optimized build and another player who has knowledge of all these thing a not optimized build with green gear and he will easily outperform the metabuild just by be the better player.

> >

> > That's why i love GW2 so much. You can do everything how you wanna do it only the top Tier content ''needs'' meta stuff to be done. And even there you can run a cm or raid with non meta builds or teams it will just take longer. You don't need to get a lucky gear drop. You can really easy obtain bis gear from that point on only your skill is important if something is hard or easy.

> >

> > I have a group of friends we played DnD together when we where young. In those days we have a RPG group in Tyria. We all run flavour builds. I play a supportive human knightish/paladin like guardian with commanders gear and ministrel trinkets Mace/Sword/Shield as weapons and only shouts. The other player's run also rpg builds. We have done everything beside raids with this build comps. Once a month we do run a cm fractal. One run takes as long as a full daily run on a Metacomp but is perfectly doable.

>

> you can do that, because youre obviously a much better player than me. i would have to grind for a very long time, just to find a functional build.

> and even IF i found one, there is simply no more content, that i enjoy to play. so we are talking about a lot of work with a very questionable return.

> no thanks.

 

If you don't enjoy the game, there's nothing you or anyone else can do about it. The logical conclusion is to go do something else, obviously.

 

If, however, you want a build that can succeed in story/open world even with very little skill and/or knowledge of the class, there are definitely builds that allow for this. Try condi staff mirage. Nearly all of its damage and defenses derive from spamming dodge and auto-attack. It's not great damage, but it's good enough. And you'll sustain like a pro without even trying!