Gwaihir.1745 Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 Nice you wanted radiant (niche) and fb nerfed, now you get to play with DH again. You got what you asked for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 unbelievable that people defend this rune, this is not 2015 when we had birds pecking you for half ur hp on elite use from rune, when we had mist form on hitting 25% hp, when we had pet bird summons from rune 6th bonus. this is 2020, and this rune is busted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math.5123 Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 > @"Crozame.4098" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > In order to actually apply any meaningful damage, a DH's target has to stand still for at least 3 seconds. > > > > Therefore, there are only 2 circumstances under which a burn-DH can actually get a kill: > > > > 1) Enemy is brain-dead and stands still in middle of traps, symbols, SoJ > > 2) Enemy is trapped in Dragon's Maw > > > > Assuming you aren't brain-dead, kill-condition 1) is not viable. > > > > Therefore the ONLY kill-condition for a burn-DH is 2), i.e., Dragon's Maw. > > > > If you save a durational block, a durational evade, an invuln or a teleport for Dragon's Maw, the DH simply cannot kill you. > > > > The current "fashion" for burn-DH's comes down to this very basic lack of knowledge from those playing against it. > > > > Nevermind the fact that the current build runs 0 stunbreak, 0 stability, 0 insta-cast saves, which means it can be chain-CC'd from 100 to 0 with absolutely no way of doing anything about it, and has only 1 cleanse on 25s CD which is easily interrupted. > > > > As soon as people start learning how to counter this, it'll disappear as quickly as it appeared. > > you can defend it. But you cannot deny its being popular in MATs, Teapots areana final both team has a burn DH. Yes, it is indeed that the current fashion for burn DH comes down to this very basic lakc of knowledge from R55, Lakers, and other very competence teams. The only reason it's being played is because it farms kalla renegade. Reaper is still better in teamfights. Id still like to see this build gone, just because it farms bad players to an unhealthy lvl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aymnad.9023 Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 My issues with dh are actually more issues with the current meta in ranked. Lots of the played builds are quite tanky, they have good damage and are (mostly) aoe based. Way too many teams in ranked are filled with those builds that can just rush a node, drop stuff without thinking and do good. I just give a look at the comp and most of the times know it is not going to be fun. You would think those necro / renegade / dh / spellbreaker builds (some of the most common builds) would be at least weak to range pressure but that’s not even close to being the case. Most of the time something will block (or body block) the projectiles and they just have more ways to shrug off the damage. Then there is thief which is an entirely topic in itself with blinds, mobility and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crozame.4098 Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 > @"Math.5123" said: > > @"Crozame.4098" said: > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > In order to actually apply any meaningful damage, a DH's target has to stand still for at least 3 seconds. > > > > > > Therefore, there are only 2 circumstances under which a burn-DH can actually get a kill: > > > > > > 1) Enemy is brain-dead and stands still in middle of traps, symbols, SoJ > > > 2) Enemy is trapped in Dragon's Maw > > > > > > Assuming you aren't brain-dead, kill-condition 1) is not viable. > > > > > > Therefore the ONLY kill-condition for a burn-DH is 2), i.e., Dragon's Maw. > > > > > > If you save a durational block, a durational evade, an invuln or a teleport for Dragon's Maw, the DH simply cannot kill you. > > > > > > The current "fashion" for burn-DH's comes down to this very basic lack of knowledge from those playing against it. > > > > > > Nevermind the fact that the current build runs 0 stunbreak, 0 stability, 0 insta-cast saves, which means it can be chain-CC'd from 100 to 0 with absolutely no way of doing anything about it, and has only 1 cleanse on 25s CD which is easily interrupted. > > > > > > As soon as people start learning how to counter this, it'll disappear as quickly as it appeared. > > > > you can defend it. But you cannot deny its being popular in MATs, Teapots areana final both team has a burn DH. Yes, it is indeed that the current fashion for burn DH comes down to this very basic lakc of knowledge from R55, Lakers, and other very competence teams. > > The only reason it's being played is because it farms kalla renegade. Reaper is still better in teamfights. > > Id still like to see this build gone, just because it farms bad players to an unhealthy Ok, but its still popluar in high lvl ATs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math.5123 Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 > @"Crozame.4098" said: > > @"Math.5123" said: > > > @"Crozame.4098" said: > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > In order to actually apply any meaningful damage, a DH's target has to stand still for at least 3 seconds. > > > > > > > > Therefore, there are only 2 circumstances under which a burn-DH can actually get a kill: > > > > > > > > 1) Enemy is brain-dead and stands still in middle of traps, symbols, SoJ > > > > 2) Enemy is trapped in Dragon's Maw > > > > > > > > Assuming you aren't brain-dead, kill-condition 1) is not viable. > > > > > > > > Therefore the ONLY kill-condition for a burn-DH is 2), i.e., Dragon's Maw. > > > > > > > > If you save a durational block, a durational evade, an invuln or a teleport for Dragon's Maw, the DH simply cannot kill you. > > > > > > > > The current "fashion" for burn-DH's comes down to this very basic lack of knowledge from those playing against it. > > > > > > > > Nevermind the fact that the current build runs 0 stunbreak, 0 stability, 0 insta-cast saves, which means it can be chain-CC'd from 100 to 0 with absolutely no way of doing anything about it, and has only 1 cleanse on 25s CD which is easily interrupted. > > > > > > > > As soon as people start learning how to counter this, it'll disappear as quickly as it appeared. > > > > > > you can defend it. But you cannot deny its being popular in MATs, Teapots areana final both team has a burn DH. Yes, it is indeed that the current fashion for burn DH comes down to this very basic lakc of knowledge from R55, Lakers, and other very competence teams. > > > > The only reason it's being played is because it farms kalla renegade. Reaper is still better in teamfights. > > > > Id still like to see this build gone, just because it farms bad players to an unhealthy > > Ok, but its still popluar in high lvl ATs Yes, because so is Kalla. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crozame.4098 Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > @"Crozame.4098" said: > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > In order to actually apply any meaningful damage, a DH's target has to stand still for at least 3 seconds. > > > > > > Therefore, there are only 2 circumstances under which a burn-DH can actually get a kill: > > > > > > 1) Enemy is brain-dead and stands still in middle of traps, symbols, SoJ > > > 2) Enemy is trapped in Dragon's Maw > > > > > > Assuming you aren't brain-dead, kill-condition 1) is not viable. > > > > > > Therefore the ONLY kill-condition for a burn-DH is 2), i.e., Dragon's Maw. > > > > > > If you save a durational block, a durational evade, an invuln or a teleport for Dragon's Maw, the DH simply cannot kill you. > > > > > > The current "fashion" for burn-DH's comes down to this very basic lack of knowledge from those playing against it. > > > > > > Nevermind the fact that the current build runs 0 stunbreak, 0 stability, 0 insta-cast saves, which means it can be chain-CC'd from 100 to 0 with absolutely no way of doing anything about it, and has only 1 cleanse on 25s CD which is easily interrupted. > > > > > > As soon as people start learning how to counter this, it'll disappear as quickly as it appeared. > > > > you can defend it. But you cannot deny its being popular in MATs, Teapots areana final both team has a burn DH. Yes, it is indeed that the current fashion for burn DH comes down to this very basic lakc of knowledge from R55, Lakers, and other very competence teams. > > Yes, even very good players can get memed if going up against something they weren't expecting or haven't yet had time to figure out a strategy against. > > Did you watch today's mAT? Burn DH's having pretty minimal impacts, dying *alot*, and the winning teams on both EU and NA didn't have them. That's because now we're 6-8 weeks into this trend people are starting to figure out how to counter. Give it another 6-8 weeks and nobody will be playing them anymore at top level, all that will be left are the silver/golds who are always 3 months behind the curve. Weren't expecting. I kindda disagree, take R55 for example, Boyce started to use DH in ranked weeks before the Teapot areana, and I think they will communicate strategies of how to deal with them. But anyways, you might be right, but who knows what wil happend in another 2 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crozame.4098 Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 > @"Math.5123" said: > > @"Crozame.4098" said: > > > @"Math.5123" said: > > > > @"Crozame.4098" said: > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > In order to actually apply any meaningful damage, a DH's target has to stand still for at least 3 seconds. > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, there are only 2 circumstances under which a burn-DH can actually get a kill: > > > > > > > > > > 1) Enemy is brain-dead and stands still in middle of traps, symbols, SoJ > > > > > 2) Enemy is trapped in Dragon's Maw > > > > > > > > > > Assuming you aren't brain-dead, kill-condition 1) is not viable. > > > > > > > > > > Therefore the ONLY kill-condition for a burn-DH is 2), i.e., Dragon's Maw. > > > > > > > > > > If you save a durational block, a durational evade, an invuln or a teleport for Dragon's Maw, the DH simply cannot kill you. > > > > > > > > > > The current "fashion" for burn-DH's comes down to this very basic lack of knowledge from those playing against it. > > > > > > > > > > Nevermind the fact that the current build runs 0 stunbreak, 0 stability, 0 insta-cast saves, which means it can be chain-CC'd from 100 to 0 with absolutely no way of doing anything about it, and has only 1 cleanse on 25s CD which is easily interrupted. > > > > > > > > > > As soon as people start learning how to counter this, it'll disappear as quickly as it appeared. > > > > > > > > you can defend it. But you cannot deny its being popular in MATs, Teapots areana final both team has a burn DH. Yes, it is indeed that the current fashion for burn DH comes down to this very basic lakc of knowledge from R55, Lakers, and other very competence teams. > > > > > > The only reason it's being played is because it farms kalla renegade. Reaper is still better in teamfights. > > > > > > Id still like to see this build gone, just because it farms bad players to an unhealthy > > > > Ok, but its still popluar in high lvl ATs > > Yes, because so is Kalla. But it does not disprove my argument. You simply provided an explanation of why DH is popular at high levels. And I was simply replying to Ragnar's comment that burn DH is only viable in low level games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avey.4201 Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 I still play power DH, only viable skill is auto attack. Anet isn't going to put any effort into balance if it's not affecting their wallet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar.4257 Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 > @"Crozame.4098" said: > > @"Math.5123" said: > > > @"Crozame.4098" said: > > > > @"Math.5123" said: > > > > > @"Crozame.4098" said: > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > In order to actually apply any meaningful damage, a DH's target has to stand still for at least 3 seconds. > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, there are only 2 circumstances under which a burn-DH can actually get a kill: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Enemy is brain-dead and stands still in middle of traps, symbols, SoJ > > > > > > 2) Enemy is trapped in Dragon's Maw > > > > > > > > > > > > Assuming you aren't brain-dead, kill-condition 1) is not viable. > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore the ONLY kill-condition for a burn-DH is 2), i.e., Dragon's Maw. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you save a durational block, a durational evade, an invuln or a teleport for Dragon's Maw, the DH simply cannot kill you. > > > > > > > > > > > > The current "fashion" for burn-DH's comes down to this very basic lack of knowledge from those playing against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nevermind the fact that the current build runs 0 stunbreak, 0 stability, 0 insta-cast saves, which means it can be chain-CC'd from 100 to 0 with absolutely no way of doing anything about it, and has only 1 cleanse on 25s CD which is easily interrupted. > > > > > > > > > > > > As soon as people start learning how to counter this, it'll disappear as quickly as it appeared. > > > > > > > > > > you can defend it. But you cannot deny its being popular in MATs, Teapots areana final both team has a burn DH. Yes, it is indeed that the current fashion for burn DH comes down to this very basic lakc of knowledge from R55, Lakers, and other very competence teams. > > > > > > > > The only reason it's being played is because it farms kalla renegade. Reaper is still better in teamfights. > > > > > > > > Id still like to see this build gone, just because it farms bad players to an unhealthy > > > > > > Ok, but its still popluar in high lvl ATs > > > > Yes, because so is Kalla. > > But it does not disprove my argument. You simply provided an explanation of why DH is popular at high levels. And I was simply replying to Ragnar's comment that burn DH is only viable in low level games. Can you quote the part where I said that? It's perfectly viable at high level right now. But give it another few months and everyone will have trained the muscle-memory and subconscious to play around it without even thinking about it. Because fundamentally it is easy to counter, people just don't have that counter locked into their "automatic response" yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of the Fire.6870 Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > In order to actually apply any meaningful damage, a DH's target has to stand still for at least 3 seconds. > > > > > > Therefore, there are only 2 circumstances under which a burn-DH can actually get a kill: > > > > > > 1) Enemy is brain-dead and stands still in middle of traps, symbols, SoJ > > > 2) Enemy is trapped in Dragon's Maw > > > > > > Assuming you aren't brain-dead, kill-condition 1) is not viable. > > > > > > Therefore the ONLY kill-condition for a burn-DH is 2), i.e., Dragon's Maw. > > > > > > If you save a durational block, a durational evade, an invuln or a teleport for Dragon's Maw, the DH simply cannot kill you. > > > > > > The current "fashion" for burn-DH's comes down to this very basic lack of knowledge from those playing against it. > > > > > > Nevermind the fact that the current build runs 0 stunbreak, 0 stability, 0 insta-cast saves, which means it can be chain-CC'd from 100 to 0 with absolutely no way of doing anything about it, and has only 1 cleanse on 25s CD which is easily interrupted. > > > > > > As soon as people start learning how to counter this, it'll disappear as quickly as it appeared. > > > > I would agree but thats not really a thing anymore. > > The only way you really hard counter it is by having AI's that can tank the traps for you in many cases its less about the traps and more about the stealth/ superspeed on multiple buttons anyways. > > Those runs grant a unhealthy level of sustain to any build that can use them simply due to the fact that they can vanish better than a core thief can with a better movement bonus. Ideally you could force a reveal by stepping into the trap on purpose but when ever is that a good idea. > > Keep in mind not all classes have the tools you listed. (invulns) > > Evades do not get you out of dragon maw if you dodge into a horrible position. > > Teleports dont always promise your safety either if you get chained by spear of justice while the DH is invis which gives it no tell. > > > > Ideally the runes are unhealthy > > Reworking it to be on heal or on elite skill only (perform x action) would be much more balanced at least that would make it fair to all professions and not exclusive to DH and Ranger which is another issue i have with it currently. > > > > > > No, every (meta) class does have a tool to deal with Dragon's Maw. > > Warrior: Shield Stance, Full Counter, Warhorn #5, Stability > Rev: Shield Block, Staff Block, Infuse Light, the various damage reduction stuff from Jalis, Stability > Guard: Shelter, RF, DH F3, porting out with sword or JI, Stability > Ranger: GS Block, Lightning Reflexes (yes, used correctly, this will get you out of Maw), Stability > Thief: Shadowstep, Steal, Daggerstorm > Engi: Shield Block, Hammer Block, Elixir S, Stability > Mesmer: Distort, various Blinks, sword #2 > Ele: Obsidian Flesh, a whole array of evades and teleports > Necro: Flesh Worm, Stability, or just face-tank it all with shroud and then transfer all of the burning right back at them. > > I haven't even mentioned cleanses here, just stuff to negate Maw. And I haven't mentioned either that if you have fast reactions then you can dodge out of Maw when it activates. > > It simply comes down to discipline of when you know there's a burnDH about of keeping track of Maw usage and making sure you have 1 of these available when you reckon the DH has Maw ready to use. > > People will eventually build this discipline, but they haven't yet. It's like learning to pressure a Reaper when it's out of shroud and kiting during, once you've got that mentality locked in then Reaper goes from looking OMGWTFBROKENOP to being entirely manageable. > > Any build that entirely relies on a single 40s ability to have any impact on a game, is inherently easy to counterplay by anyone paying attention. Because of this I think the current meta stinks to heaven me as ele taking focus means cutting my dps in half as Tempest I can use overload to get out put only when I don't get another cc which is very likely . > @"Crossroads.5174" said: > Greetings! > I was wondering, is everybody happy with this "new" build that is becoming increasingly popular in ranked? > In my opinion, it is a bit too cheesy, especially since DH is already a spec that can sometimes get away with playing greedy builds by having condi cleanse and block for free as class mechanics (and heavy armor). > Sure, DH gets revealed as soon as the enemy activates (is caught in, actually) the trap, but at that point, good luck chasing it while it consecutively stacks superspeed. > Also, traited Sword of Justice feels PvE-y in its burning application, but maybe the problem here is how strong burning is. > I have seen the power variant as well, true shotting people from stealth for almost three quarters of their health (8 seconds cd, 1500 range), nice. > I know, it may not be that great in high plat, but low plat and high gold are absolutely infested with it (it's not uncommon at all to see three trapper DH in a match). > I think the easiest solution would be to change current DH traps into another skill category, or to remove trapper runes altogether (since trapper ranger is not exactly a sight for sore eyes). > What do you think? I also think Sword of Justice is too strong it is a summon(which haven't been nerfed unlike weapon skills) but unlike the others it feels like a direct attack especially with the cc combo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felix.2386 Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > In order to actually apply any meaningful damage, a DH's target has to stand still for at least 3 seconds. > > > > > > Therefore, there are only 2 circumstances under which a burn-DH can actually get a kill: > > > > > > 1) Enemy is brain-dead and stands still in middle of traps, symbols, SoJ > > > 2) Enemy is trapped in Dragon's Maw > > > > > > Assuming you aren't brain-dead, kill-condition 1) is not viable. > > > > > > Therefore the ONLY kill-condition for a burn-DH is 2), i.e., Dragon's Maw. > > > > > > If you save a durational block, a durational evade, an invuln or a teleport for Dragon's Maw, the DH simply cannot kill you. > > > > > > The current "fashion" for burn-DH's comes down to this very basic lack of knowledge from those playing against it. > > > > > > Nevermind the fact that the current build runs 0 stunbreak, 0 stability, 0 insta-cast saves, which means it can be chain-CC'd from 100 to 0 with absolutely no way of doing anything about it, and has only 1 cleanse on 25s CD which is easily interrupted. > > > > > > As soon as people start learning how to counter this, it'll disappear as quickly as it appeared. > > > > I would agree but thats not really a thing anymore. > > The only way you really hard counter it is by having AI's that can tank the traps for you in many cases its less about the traps and more about the stealth/ superspeed on multiple buttons anyways. > > Those runs grant a unhealthy level of sustain to any build that can use them simply due to the fact that they can vanish better than a core thief can with a better movement bonus. Ideally you could force a reveal by stepping into the trap on purpose but when ever is that a good idea. > > Keep in mind not all classes have the tools you listed. (invulns) > > Evades do not get you out of dragon maw if you dodge into a horrible position. > > Teleports dont always promise your safety either if you get chained by spear of justice while the DH is invis which gives it no tell. > > > > Ideally the runes are unhealthy > > Reworking it to be on heal or on elite skill only (perform x action) would be much more balanced at least that would make it fair to all professions and not exclusive to DH and Ranger which is another issue i have with it currently. > > > > > > No, every (meta) class does have a tool to deal with Dragon's Maw. > > Warrior: Shield Stance, Full Counter, Warhorn #5, Stability > Rev: Shield Block, Staff Block, Infuse Light, the various damage reduction stuff from Jalis, Stability > Guard: Shelter, RF, DH F3, porting out with sword or JI, Stability > Ranger: GS Block, Lightning Reflexes (yes, used correctly, this will get you out of Maw), Stability > Thief: Shadowstep, Steal, Daggerstorm > Engi: Shield Block, Hammer Block, Elixir S, Stability > Mesmer: Distort, various Blinks, sword #2 > Ele: Obsidian Flesh, a whole array of evades and teleports > Necro: Flesh Worm, Stability, or just face-tank it all with shroud and then transfer all of the burning right back at them. > > I haven't even mentioned cleanses here, just stuff to negate Maw. And I haven't mentioned either that if you have fast reactions then you can dodge out of Maw when it activates. > > It simply comes down to discipline of when you know there's a burnDH about of keeping track of Maw usage and making sure you have 1 of these available when you reckon the DH has Maw ready to use. > > People will eventually build this discipline, but they haven't yet. It's like learning to pressure a Reaper when it's out of shroud and kiting during, once you've got that mentality locked in then Reaper goes from looking OMGWTFBROKENOP to being entirely manageable. > > Any build that entirely relies on a single 40s ability to have any impact on a game, is inherently easy to counterplay by anyone paying attention. why are you seperating full counter and stab, when the only source of stab on healbreak is on full counter. also most blocks wont work because smart dh will pair maw with spear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buran.3796 Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > Nice you wanted radiant (niche) and fb nerfed, now you get to play with DH again. You got what you asked for. Yep, people's moanings thrashed FB as a tank and support, then complained about symbol Guardians until got nerfed (aka: deleted from pvp) and now are whining about PvE builds having success in Conquest. Guess what happens when you nerf builds which were fine from people which won't want to change their main class: they keep playing the same class and find a more annoying build to beat you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollbirtan.2915 Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 Great logic here - if you see a build played more than once in MaT, start yelling for nerfs. Getcha pitchforks y'all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar.4257 Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 > @"felix.2386" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > In order to actually apply any meaningful damage, a DH's target has to stand still for at least 3 seconds. > > > > > > > > Therefore, there are only 2 circumstances under which a burn-DH can actually get a kill: > > > > > > > > 1) Enemy is brain-dead and stands still in middle of traps, symbols, SoJ > > > > 2) Enemy is trapped in Dragon's Maw > > > > > > > > Assuming you aren't brain-dead, kill-condition 1) is not viable. > > > > > > > > Therefore the ONLY kill-condition for a burn-DH is 2), i.e., Dragon's Maw. > > > > > > > > If you save a durational block, a durational evade, an invuln or a teleport for Dragon's Maw, the DH simply cannot kill you. > > > > > > > > The current "fashion" for burn-DH's comes down to this very basic lack of knowledge from those playing against it. > > > > > > > > Nevermind the fact that the current build runs 0 stunbreak, 0 stability, 0 insta-cast saves, which means it can be chain-CC'd from 100 to 0 with absolutely no way of doing anything about it, and has only 1 cleanse on 25s CD which is easily interrupted. > > > > > > > > As soon as people start learning how to counter this, it'll disappear as quickly as it appeared. > > > > > > I would agree but thats not really a thing anymore. > > > The only way you really hard counter it is by having AI's that can tank the traps for you in many cases its less about the traps and more about the stealth/ superspeed on multiple buttons anyways. > > > Those runs grant a unhealthy level of sustain to any build that can use them simply due to the fact that they can vanish better than a core thief can with a better movement bonus. Ideally you could force a reveal by stepping into the trap on purpose but when ever is that a good idea. > > > Keep in mind not all classes have the tools you listed. (invulns) > > > Evades do not get you out of dragon maw if you dodge into a horrible position. > > > Teleports dont always promise your safety either if you get chained by spear of justice while the DH is invis which gives it no tell. > > > > > > Ideally the runes are unhealthy > > > Reworking it to be on heal or on elite skill only (perform x action) would be much more balanced at least that would make it fair to all professions and not exclusive to DH and Ranger which is another issue i have with it currently. > > > > > > > > > > No, every (meta) class does have a tool to deal with Dragon's Maw. > > > > Warrior: Shield Stance, Full Counter, Warhorn #5, Stability > > Rev: Shield Block, Staff Block, Infuse Light, the various damage reduction stuff from Jalis, Stability > > Guard: Shelter, RF, DH F3, porting out with sword or JI, Stability > > Ranger: GS Block, Lightning Reflexes (yes, used correctly, this will get you out of Maw), Stability > > Thief: Shadowstep, Steal, Daggerstorm > > Engi: Shield Block, Hammer Block, Elixir S, Stability > > Mesmer: Distort, various Blinks, sword #2 > > Ele: Obsidian Flesh, a whole array of evades and teleports > > Necro: Flesh Worm, Stability, or just face-tank it all with shroud and then transfer all of the burning right back at them. > > > > I haven't even mentioned cleanses here, just stuff to negate Maw. And I haven't mentioned either that if you have fast reactions then you can dodge out of Maw when it activates. > > > > It simply comes down to discipline of when you know there's a burnDH about of keeping track of Maw usage and making sure you have 1 of these available when you reckon the DH has Maw ready to use. > > > > People will eventually build this discipline, but they haven't yet. It's like learning to pressure a Reaper when it's out of shroud and kiting during, once you've got that mentality locked in then Reaper goes from looking OMGWTFBROKENOP to being entirely manageable. > > > > Any build that entirely relies on a single 40s ability to have any impact on a game, is inherently easy to counterplay by anyone paying attention. > > why are you seperating full counter and stab, when the only source of stab on healbreak is on full counter. > > also most blocks wont work because smart dh will pair maw with spear I already explained the answer to this question. Burn DH relies on procs from VoJ. If you use spear, you don't get VoJ procs = no burning. This is basic. It's really a good idea to understand how a build works before complaining about it. This is, yet again, why I say this build entirely relies on people not having basic knowledge of how it functions, and once they do it'll go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthernRedStar.3054 Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 It's not just Trapper Rune. The pre-determined nerf pattern to all medium-to-high dps builds means stealth-sustain and condi over time are going to rule eventually. We wouldn't be having these dumb builds be viable if not for the current balance priority: everyone at near equal footing regardless of skill. Why do you think Trapper Rune hasn't been changed yet, for example? Why did thief stealth changes take so long to get implemented? Because they keep newbies afloat and coming back. Extremely low effort / medium-to-high reward has been the new standard for gameplay since February. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metzie.3451 Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 The only thing I personally like about this ongoing discussion (which concerns this rune in general - not only DH) is that the more often it is discussed or complained about (rightly), the more ANet should finally acknowledge that this rune should be reworked! Not that this should not have happened long ago. However, until ANet is ready to not only understand this but also to do so, it will most likely need some "new and many more" contributions to this topic. It is basically only a matter of time, and ANet has a lot of it, right? :) > But according to ANet: > Our number one priority right now is crafting Guild Wars 2: End of Dragons with the high quality you expect and deserve. This means that with EoD everything will be different, in other words, we'll get all the things we haven't experienced or haven't been allowed to experience until now! You are surely as excited as I am, aren't you? *sarcasm/irony off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zephoid.4263 Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 DH is unplayable without trapper. From DH's initial nerfs after release to now, it in probably the least played class in PVP. It has never had a time were it was top teir. Chrono and druid are the only classes in competition with that title and both had periods where they were everywhere. DH was a laughing stock for years. Now you have ONE meme build with DH and all of a sudden it needs nerfed. It isn't even in discussion for top teir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brokensunday.4098 Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 > @"Zephoid.4263" said: > DH is unplayable without trapper. > From DH's initial nerfs after release to now, it in probably the least played class in PVP. It has never had a time were it was top teir. Chrono and druid are the only classes in competition with that title and both had periods where they were everywhere. DH was a laughing stock for years. > > Now you have ONE meme build with DH and all of a sudden it needs nerfed. It isn't even in discussion for top teir. I agree dh as rigth now needs the trapper runes to be "Viable", dh was like one minor buff to being meta and after the nefts it got push back to irrelevance. now is being carried by the runes and the op burn applications and even with that is not "meta" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of the Fire.6870 Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 > @"Buran.3796" said: > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > Nice you wanted radiant (niche) and fb nerfed, now you get to play with DH again. You got what you asked for. > > Yep, people's moanings thrashed FB as a tank and support, then complained about symbol Guardians until got nerfed (aka: deleted from pvp) and now are whining about PvE builds having success in Conquest. Guess what happens when you nerf builds which were fine from people which won't want to change their main class: they keep playing the same class and find a more annoying build to beat you. Yes if Heal FB would be still there this DH build wouldn't be much of a problem Heal FB is the only build who can give tons of stabi basically Heal FB pushed back all the the too cc heavy builds and to some degree condi builds as well, But the same happens for Ele , Ele always pushed back those builds who relied on invulnerable over time skills by stacking up might(the trait for this got butchered) so long so when the skill ended they got killed fast. This forced the builds to get all out in the beginning to kill the (glasscanon)ele and not drag the fight out. This also happened because of endless mimi in the board and the lead developers leaving Arena.NET so no more vision from this site who ever this was .... What we now have is dragged out fights by using cc and invulnerable over time skills so the first fight can take 2-3 minutes. The other extreme I had also a few times condi bomb on both sides then both teams fighting in the downsstate each other (this must be the fierce PvP content GW 2 is famous about xD). This isn't happening all the time but together I would so about 20% of all match up I have and not necessarily a PvP only thing I had a few days ago in WvW Tier 1 a Zerg fight which felt like around 10 Minutes because they start coping the meta where they can from PvP. At least in PvP I only collect shards now PvP became so ridiculous in Gw 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kachros.4751 Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 Im too lazy to read through and see if anyone agrees with what i think but. Nerfing or removing the rune is absurdly stupid and shouldnt be done, the main issue is that it has too much damage regardless if it uses that rune or not. If you want to make it still playable (even though its not the best because people are learning how to counter it) then just nerf the f1 passive and possibly the spirit sword vulnerability stacks or how many hits it has. There we go, less damage but still good node pressure and decent survability alone and you dont kill the class because of a rune that you dislike. Im not justifying that trapper rune is perfectly fine but its only used for burn dh and nothing else thats remotely useful. So why change the rune when there are multiple other possibilities? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollbirtan.2915 Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 @"Kachros.4751" lol great idea. let's take away the last source of damage from guardians by nerfing f1 passive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 > @"Kachros.4751" said: > Im too lazy to read through and see if anyone agrees with what i think but. Nerfing or removing the rune is absurdly stupid and shouldnt be done, the main issue is that it has too much damage regardless if it uses that rune or not. If you want to make it still playable (even though its not the best because people are learning how to counter it) then just nerf the f1 passive and possibly the spirit sword vulnerability stacks or how many hits it has. There we go, less damage but still good node pressure and decent survability alone and you dont kill the class because of a rune that you dislike. Im not justifying that trapper rune is perfectly fine but its only used for burn dh and nothing else thats remotely useful. So why change the rune when there are multiple other possibilities? I dont agree Because having damage is fine so long as you are squishy for having that damage However stealth and superspeed provide a means of sustain that it should not have even if that stealth only drops traget for a second or two. A second or two with super speed can make a massive difference in positioning which can provide sustain that it otherwise wouldnt have. High damage but squishy is fine Low damage but more sustain is fine High damage and high sustain is not fine unless you are a snail. I do count mechanics like stealth as added sustain because its a drop target and assuming nothin walks into the traps and you dont get revealed its time you have to take the advantage or wait for cds. Needs to be changed for a few reasons. No class should be able to add stealth + superspeed to its near its entire utility kit if this existed for something that only worked on necro or warrior skills you wouldnt agree with it and would say the rune should be removed because broken bonuses and only works with one two other classes. Secondly it only works for 2 classes DH and Ranger so saying that DH is the only one that uses it really has no value in your point. Other classes dont use it because other classes dont have traps to activate the strongest part of the rune. DH at a base level likely needs very few changes and nerfs to traps are not one of them. The constant burn when speared maybe could be looked into because there is no way to avoid 12k incoming condi damage once speared unless you go invuln or have the power to spam clears our the wazooo. True shot could maybe get a slight shave too. Other than that imo DH would be fine imo. But as it sits right now you are generally fighting the runes mechanics and not the traps or other DH skills and thats not a good thing. Its similar to the Mad king rune situation which was nerfed a while back. Only like 2 classes were making use of it but it was super powerful when used with their low cd elite skills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar.4257 Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 > @"Kachros.4751" said: > Im too lazy to read through and see if anyone agrees with what i think but. Nerfing or removing the rune is absurdly stupid and shouldnt be done, the main issue is that it has too much damage regardless if it uses that rune or not. If you want to make it still playable (even though its not the best because people are learning how to counter it) then just nerf the f1 passive and possibly the spirit sword vulnerability stacks or how many hits it has. There we go, less damage but still good node pressure and decent survability alone and you dont kill the class because of a rune that you dislike. Im not justifying that trapper rune is perfectly fine but its only used for burn dh and nothing else thats remotely useful. So why change the rune when there are multiple other possibilities? This is the most ridiculous backwards thinking. You say "don't kill the class because of a rune"......... and then you go and propose to nerf the class and leave the rune. Please, can we just get this rune removed before anyone else has any great ideas about how to "fix" guardian. Please. Hmmmm, reaper benefits from Rune of Speed. I know! Lets remove all swiftness from Reaper! Yeah, that's the appropriate fix /facepalm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthernRedStar.3054 Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 I've been proposing for changes to, or even removal of, trapper rune for a while now. It's a component that breaks some of the fundamentals of the game in a very painstakingly annoying way. Something does not have to be flat-out overpowered in order to get changed. Uninteractivity and superb annoyance are enough. Mind you, this is not a Guardian -related issue. It's a gameplay -related issue. Dragonhunter in a vacuum is largely fine, from a balance perspective; rather, the spec needs a complete overhaul if anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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