Dantheman.3589 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > @"DoomNexus.5324" said: > > > > > I think every class with strong dps AND strong support would definitely win in a "every player has to play another build"-setup. > > > > > Guard, Rev and Necro would be my top bets. > > > > > Ele, Ranger, Engi and Warrior would probably be also pretty serious contenders but I doubt there are enough viable builds atm to keep a full team on-par with the ones mentioned earlier. I'm not saying they don't have strong builds but in specifically the setup OP established, I think there's just not enough viable variety with the current balance. > > > > > Mesmer and thief would probably fail pretty bad since I don't think their support would be nowhere good enough to contend with the others and especially thief would lack pretty much everything in this kind of setup. Mesmer maaaaybe if they'd run different variations of burst builds and manage to end the fight before it even starts but I don't think so. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > If u cannot win an at on 5 thief than u bad. > > > > > > > > > > Are u serious?. What great builds do thieves offer? Keep in mind, everyone has to play a different build.. > > > > > 5 thieves against 5 guards? I doubt there would be any chance for the thieves if the guards are just camping close and mid, there's just nowhere near enough damage nor sustain to do anything. Again.. what great builds have thieves available? p/d condi? Is pretty much useless against guards, especially with a support.. d/p? Nowhere near enough damage to spike through aegis, shields, ... > > > > > Same for Rev, Necro, probably even Ranger. > > > > > > > > Imagine thinking thief can do nothing about aegis and blocks > > > > > > I mean, sure, you can use shortbow 4 to interrupt blocks, but how exactly do you intend for the thieves to kill the guardians? The guardian can literally just sit on the points and the thieves are powerless to do anything. 5 thieves in general is atrociously bad, 5 thieves and you cant share builds? Yeesh. > > > > Ok get a team of 5 guards and I’ll gladly beat u with a 5 thief team. > > No, you wont. There is a reason people have done well with 5 guard teams in AT before (yes, they were memeing, but still), but no one has even tried to bring a 5 thief team to an AT before. Because they would get clapped and lose in round 1. If I were to put in the effort, what would happen is that your team of 5 thieves would lose embarassingly, and you will ignore it ever happened. But thats not worth the effort. I’m sure u can train for months in preparation for a Daily at. Omegalul your embarrassing your self on the forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > @"DoomNexus.5324" said: > > > > > > I think every class with strong dps AND strong support would definitely win in a "every player has to play another build"-setup. > > > > > > Guard, Rev and Necro would be my top bets. > > > > > > Ele, Ranger, Engi and Warrior would probably be also pretty serious contenders but I doubt there are enough viable builds atm to keep a full team on-par with the ones mentioned earlier. I'm not saying they don't have strong builds but in specifically the setup OP established, I think there's just not enough viable variety with the current balance. > > > > > > Mesmer and thief would probably fail pretty bad since I don't think their support would be nowhere good enough to contend with the others and especially thief would lack pretty much everything in this kind of setup. Mesmer maaaaybe if they'd run different variations of burst builds and manage to end the fight before it even starts but I don't think so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > If u cannot win an at on 5 thief than u bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > Are u serious?. What great builds do thieves offer? Keep in mind, everyone has to play a different build.. > > > > > > 5 thieves against 5 guards? I doubt there would be any chance for the thieves if the guards are just camping close and mid, there's just nowhere near enough damage nor sustain to do anything. Again.. what great builds have thieves available? p/d condi? Is pretty much useless against guards, especially with a support.. d/p? Nowhere near enough damage to spike through aegis, shields, ... > > > > > > Same for Rev, Necro, probably even Ranger. > > > > > > > > > > Imagine thinking thief can do nothing about aegis and blocks > > > > > > > > I mean, sure, you can use shortbow 4 to interrupt blocks, but how exactly do you intend for the thieves to kill the guardians? The guardian can literally just sit on the points and the thieves are powerless to do anything. 5 thieves in general is atrociously bad, 5 thieves and you cant share builds? Yeesh. > > > > > > Ok get a team of 5 guards and I’ll gladly beat u with a 5 thief team. > > > > No, you wont. There is a reason people have done well with 5 guard teams in AT before (yes, they were memeing, but still), but no one has even tried to bring a 5 thief team to an AT before. Because they would get clapped and lose in round 1. If I were to put in the effort, what would happen is that your team of 5 thieves would lose embarassingly, and you will ignore it ever happened. But thats not worth the effort. > > NoOnEhaSeVRbroUghTa5tEeFteamToanAtbeFore I dont know why you just repeated the truth while completely bastardising the spelling and capitalisation. Is this meant to make a mockery of yourself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > @"DoomNexus.5324" said: > > > > > > I think every class with strong dps AND strong support would definitely win in a "every player has to play another build"-setup. > > > > > > Guard, Rev and Necro would be my top bets. > > > > > > Ele, Ranger, Engi and Warrior would probably be also pretty serious contenders but I doubt there are enough viable builds atm to keep a full team on-par with the ones mentioned earlier. I'm not saying they don't have strong builds but in specifically the setup OP established, I think there's just not enough viable variety with the current balance. > > > > > > Mesmer and thief would probably fail pretty bad since I don't think their support would be nowhere good enough to contend with the others and especially thief would lack pretty much everything in this kind of setup. Mesmer maaaaybe if they'd run different variations of burst builds and manage to end the fight before it even starts but I don't think so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > If u cannot win an at on 5 thief than u bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > Are u serious?. What great builds do thieves offer? Keep in mind, everyone has to play a different build.. > > > > > > 5 thieves against 5 guards? I doubt there would be any chance for the thieves if the guards are just camping close and mid, there's just nowhere near enough damage nor sustain to do anything. Again.. what great builds have thieves available? p/d condi? Is pretty much useless against guards, especially with a support.. d/p? Nowhere near enough damage to spike through aegis, shields, ... > > > > > > Same for Rev, Necro, probably even Ranger. > > > > > > > > > > Imagine thinking thief can do nothing about aegis and blocks > > > > > > > > I mean, sure, you can use shortbow 4 to interrupt blocks, but how exactly do you intend for the thieves to kill the guardians? The guardian can literally just sit on the points and the thieves are powerless to do anything. 5 thieves in general is atrociously bad, 5 thieves and you cant share builds? Yeesh. > > > > > > Ok get a team of 5 guards and I’ll gladly beat u with a 5 thief team. > > > > No, you wont. There is a reason people have done well with 5 guard teams in AT before (yes, they were memeing, but still), but no one has even tried to bring a 5 thief team to an AT before. Because they would get clapped and lose in round 1. If I were to put in the effort, what would happen is that your team of 5 thieves would lose embarassingly, and you will ignore it ever happened. But thats not worth the effort. > > I’m sure u can train for months in preparation for a Daily at. Omegalul your embarrassing your self on the forums. Why would I? If we did it tomorrow, the result would still be the guardian team completely clapping the thief team, because 5 guardians is a bad, but functional, team. Even with non-repeating builds. 5 Thieves is not even functional *with* repeating builds. Without repeating builds? Youre basically playing 2v5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheman.3589 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > @"DoomNexus.5324" said: > > > > > > > I think every class with strong dps AND strong support would definitely win in a "every player has to play another build"-setup. > > > > > > > Guard, Rev and Necro would be my top bets. > > > > > > > Ele, Ranger, Engi and Warrior would probably be also pretty serious contenders but I doubt there are enough viable builds atm to keep a full team on-par with the ones mentioned earlier. I'm not saying they don't have strong builds but in specifically the setup OP established, I think there's just not enough viable variety with the current balance. > > > > > > > Mesmer and thief would probably fail pretty bad since I don't think their support would be nowhere good enough to contend with the others and especially thief would lack pretty much everything in this kind of setup. Mesmer maaaaybe if they'd run different variations of burst builds and manage to end the fight before it even starts but I don't think so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > If u cannot win an at on 5 thief than u bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are u serious?. What great builds do thieves offer? Keep in mind, everyone has to play a different build.. > > > > > > > 5 thieves against 5 guards? I doubt there would be any chance for the thieves if the guards are just camping close and mid, there's just nowhere near enough damage nor sustain to do anything. Again.. what great builds have thieves available? p/d condi? Is pretty much useless against guards, especially with a support.. d/p? Nowhere near enough damage to spike through aegis, shields, ... > > > > > > > Same for Rev, Necro, probably even Ranger. > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine thinking thief can do nothing about aegis and blocks > > > > > > > > > > I mean, sure, you can use shortbow 4 to interrupt blocks, but how exactly do you intend for the thieves to kill the guardians? The guardian can literally just sit on the points and the thieves are powerless to do anything. 5 thieves in general is atrociously bad, 5 thieves and you cant share builds? Yeesh. > > > > > > > > Ok get a team of 5 guards and I’ll gladly beat u with a 5 thief team. > > > > > > No, you wont. There is a reason people have done well with 5 guard teams in AT before (yes, they were memeing, but still), but no one has even tried to bring a 5 thief team to an AT before. Because they would get clapped and lose in round 1. If I were to put in the effort, what would happen is that your team of 5 thieves would lose embarassingly, and you will ignore it ever happened. But thats not worth the effort. > > > > NoOnEhaSeVRbroUghTa5tEeFteamToanAtbeFore > > I dont know why you just repeated the truth while completely bastardising the spelling and capitalisation. Is this meant to make a mockery of yourself? The fact you think winning an at as 5 thief is impossible is just so absolutely hilarious. I cannot tell u the amount of times I’ve played an at with 5- plat3-legend, best of best and/or former pro league player team literally against bronze/silver maybe 1 gold player teams all the way up to the finals. You think we would lose to ppl with even worse builds, about 1/10th the mechanical knowledge and rotational knowledge(note a rough estimation, but for this case hopefully practical)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheman.3589 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > @"DoomNexus.5324" said: > > > > > > > I think every class with strong dps AND strong support would definitely win in a "every player has to play another build"-setup. > > > > > > > Guard, Rev and Necro would be my top bets. > > > > > > > Ele, Ranger, Engi and Warrior would probably be also pretty serious contenders but I doubt there are enough viable builds atm to keep a full team on-par with the ones mentioned earlier. I'm not saying they don't have strong builds but in specifically the setup OP established, I think there's just not enough viable variety with the current balance. > > > > > > > Mesmer and thief would probably fail pretty bad since I don't think their support would be nowhere good enough to contend with the others and especially thief would lack pretty much everything in this kind of setup. Mesmer maaaaybe if they'd run different variations of burst builds and manage to end the fight before it even starts but I don't think so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > If u cannot win an at on 5 thief than u bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are u serious?. What great builds do thieves offer? Keep in mind, everyone has to play a different build.. > > > > > > > 5 thieves against 5 guards? I doubt there would be any chance for the thieves if the guards are just camping close and mid, there's just nowhere near enough damage nor sustain to do anything. Again.. what great builds have thieves available? p/d condi? Is pretty much useless against guards, especially with a support.. d/p? Nowhere near enough damage to spike through aegis, shields, ... > > > > > > > Same for Rev, Necro, probably even Ranger. > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine thinking thief can do nothing about aegis and blocks > > > > > > > > > > I mean, sure, you can use shortbow 4 to interrupt blocks, but how exactly do you intend for the thieves to kill the guardians? The guardian can literally just sit on the points and the thieves are powerless to do anything. 5 thieves in general is atrociously bad, 5 thieves and you cant share builds? Yeesh. > > > > > > > > Ok get a team of 5 guards and I’ll gladly beat u with a 5 thief team. > > > > > > No, you wont. There is a reason people have done well with 5 guard teams in AT before (yes, they were memeing, but still), but no one has even tried to bring a 5 thief team to an AT before. Because they would get clapped and lose in round 1. If I were to put in the effort, what would happen is that your team of 5 thieves would lose embarassingly, and you will ignore it ever happened. But thats not worth the effort. > > > > I’m sure u can train for months in preparation for a Daily at. Omegalul your embarrassing your self on the forums. > > Why would I? If we did it tomorrow, the result would still be the guardian team completely clapping the thief team, because 5 guardians is a bad, but functional, team. Even with non-repeating builds. 5 Thieves is not even functional *with* repeating builds. Without repeating builds? Youre basically playing 2v5. Than start doing lfgs on NA(as my hours aren’t great for Eu ats) for 5 guard teams and I promise if I see that I’ll make my team go 5 thief....?.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > @"DoomNexus.5324" said: > > > > > > > > I think every class with strong dps AND strong support would definitely win in a "every player has to play another build"-setup. > > > > > > > > Guard, Rev and Necro would be my top bets. > > > > > > > > Ele, Ranger, Engi and Warrior would probably be also pretty serious contenders but I doubt there are enough viable builds atm to keep a full team on-par with the ones mentioned earlier. I'm not saying they don't have strong builds but in specifically the setup OP established, I think there's just not enough viable variety with the current balance. > > > > > > > > Mesmer and thief would probably fail pretty bad since I don't think their support would be nowhere good enough to contend with the others and especially thief would lack pretty much everything in this kind of setup. Mesmer maaaaybe if they'd run different variations of burst builds and manage to end the fight before it even starts but I don't think so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > If u cannot win an at on 5 thief than u bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are u serious?. What great builds do thieves offer? Keep in mind, everyone has to play a different build.. > > > > > > > > 5 thieves against 5 guards? I doubt there would be any chance for the thieves if the guards are just camping close and mid, there's just nowhere near enough damage nor sustain to do anything. Again.. what great builds have thieves available? p/d condi? Is pretty much useless against guards, especially with a support.. d/p? Nowhere near enough damage to spike through aegis, shields, ... > > > > > > > > Same for Rev, Necro, probably even Ranger. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine thinking thief can do nothing about aegis and blocks > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, sure, you can use shortbow 4 to interrupt blocks, but how exactly do you intend for the thieves to kill the guardians? The guardian can literally just sit on the points and the thieves are powerless to do anything. 5 thieves in general is atrociously bad, 5 thieves and you cant share builds? Yeesh. > > > > > > > > > > Ok get a team of 5 guards and I’ll gladly beat u with a 5 thief team. > > > > > > > > No, you wont. There is a reason people have done well with 5 guard teams in AT before (yes, they were memeing, but still), but no one has even tried to bring a 5 thief team to an AT before. Because they would get clapped and lose in round 1. If I were to put in the effort, what would happen is that your team of 5 thieves would lose embarassingly, and you will ignore it ever happened. But thats not worth the effort. > > > > > > NoOnEhaSeVRbroUghTa5tEeFteamToanAtbeFore > > > > I dont know why you just repeated the truth while completely bastardising the spelling and capitalisation. Is this meant to make a mockery of yourself? > > The fact you think winning an at as 5 thief is impossible is just so absolutely hilarious. I cannot tell u the amount of times I’ve played an at with 5- plat3-legend, best of best and/or former pro league player team literally against bronze/silver maybe 1 gold player teams all the way up to the finals. You think we would lose to ppl with even worse builds, about 1/10th the mechanical knowledge and rotational knowledge(note a rough estimation, but for this case hopefully practical)? And yet, no one has tried it. Not even as a meme. People have done 5 engineer, 5 guardian, 5 ele, 5 warrior, even 5 ranger I believe. Oh and 5 revenants obviously. But never 5 thieves. I wonder *why*. Hell, people have brought most of those to MATs too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheman.3589 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > @"DoomNexus.5324" said: > > > > > > > > > I think every class with strong dps AND strong support would definitely win in a "every player has to play another build"-setup. > > > > > > > > > Guard, Rev and Necro would be my top bets. > > > > > > > > > Ele, Ranger, Engi and Warrior would probably be also pretty serious contenders but I doubt there are enough viable builds atm to keep a full team on-par with the ones mentioned earlier. I'm not saying they don't have strong builds but in specifically the setup OP established, I think there's just not enough viable variety with the current balance. > > > > > > > > > Mesmer and thief would probably fail pretty bad since I don't think their support would be nowhere good enough to contend with the others and especially thief would lack pretty much everything in this kind of setup. Mesmer maaaaybe if they'd run different variations of burst builds and manage to end the fight before it even starts but I don't think so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > If u cannot win an at on 5 thief than u bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are u serious?. What great builds do thieves offer? Keep in mind, everyone has to play a different build.. > > > > > > > > > 5 thieves against 5 guards? I doubt there would be any chance for the thieves if the guards are just camping close and mid, there's just nowhere near enough damage nor sustain to do anything. Again.. what great builds have thieves available? p/d condi? Is pretty much useless against guards, especially with a support.. d/p? Nowhere near enough damage to spike through aegis, shields, ... > > > > > > > > > Same for Rev, Necro, probably even Ranger. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine thinking thief can do nothing about aegis and blocks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, sure, you can use shortbow 4 to interrupt blocks, but how exactly do you intend for the thieves to kill the guardians? The guardian can literally just sit on the points and the thieves are powerless to do anything. 5 thieves in general is atrociously bad, 5 thieves and you cant share builds? Yeesh. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok get a team of 5 guards and I’ll gladly beat u with a 5 thief team. > > > > > > > > > > No, you wont. There is a reason people have done well with 5 guard teams in AT before (yes, they were memeing, but still), but no one has even tried to bring a 5 thief team to an AT before. Because they would get clapped and lose in round 1. If I were to put in the effort, what would happen is that your team of 5 thieves would lose embarassingly, and you will ignore it ever happened. But thats not worth the effort. > > > > > > > > NoOnEhaSeVRbroUghTa5tEeFteamToanAtbeFore > > > > > > I dont know why you just repeated the truth while completely bastardising the spelling and capitalisation. Is this meant to make a mockery of yourself? > > > > The fact you think winning an at as 5 thief is impossible is just so absolutely hilarious. I cannot tell u the amount of times I’ve played an at with 5- plat3-legend, best of best and/or former pro league player team literally against bronze/silver maybe 1 gold player teams all the way up to the finals. You think we would lose to ppl with even worse builds, about 1/10th the mechanical knowledge and rotational knowledge(note a rough estimation, but for this case hopefully practical)? > > And yet, no one has tried it. Not even as a meme. People have done 5 engineer, 5 guardian, 5 ele, 5 warrior, even 5 ranger I believe. Oh and 5 revenants obviously. But never 5 thieves. I wonder *why*. Hell, people have brought most of those to MATs too. You have no proof of that... mats are one thing but then again who cares, ppl will meme if they wanna meme... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > @"DoomNexus.5324" said: > > > > > > > > I think every class with strong dps AND strong support would definitely win in a "every player has to play another build"-setup. > > > > > > > > Guard, Rev and Necro would be my top bets. > > > > > > > > Ele, Ranger, Engi and Warrior would probably be also pretty serious contenders but I doubt there are enough viable builds atm to keep a full team on-par with the ones mentioned earlier. I'm not saying they don't have strong builds but in specifically the setup OP established, I think there's just not enough viable variety with the current balance. > > > > > > > > Mesmer and thief would probably fail pretty bad since I don't think their support would be nowhere good enough to contend with the others and especially thief would lack pretty much everything in this kind of setup. Mesmer maaaaybe if they'd run different variations of burst builds and manage to end the fight before it even starts but I don't think so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > If u cannot win an at on 5 thief than u bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are u serious?. What great builds do thieves offer? Keep in mind, everyone has to play a different build.. > > > > > > > > 5 thieves against 5 guards? I doubt there would be any chance for the thieves if the guards are just camping close and mid, there's just nowhere near enough damage nor sustain to do anything. Again.. what great builds have thieves available? p/d condi? Is pretty much useless against guards, especially with a support.. d/p? Nowhere near enough damage to spike through aegis, shields, ... > > > > > > > > Same for Rev, Necro, probably even Ranger. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine thinking thief can do nothing about aegis and blocks > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, sure, you can use shortbow 4 to interrupt blocks, but how exactly do you intend for the thieves to kill the guardians? The guardian can literally just sit on the points and the thieves are powerless to do anything. 5 thieves in general is atrociously bad, 5 thieves and you cant share builds? Yeesh. > > > > > > > > > > Ok get a team of 5 guards and I’ll gladly beat u with a 5 thief team. > > > > > > > > No, you wont. There is a reason people have done well with 5 guard teams in AT before (yes, they were memeing, but still), but no one has even tried to bring a 5 thief team to an AT before. Because they would get clapped and lose in round 1. If I were to put in the effort, what would happen is that your team of 5 thieves would lose embarassingly, and you will ignore it ever happened. But thats not worth the effort. > > > > > > I’m sure u can train for months in preparation for a Daily at. Omegalul your embarrassing your self on the forums. > > > > Why would I? If we did it tomorrow, the result would still be the guardian team completely clapping the thief team, because 5 guardians is a bad, but functional, team. Even with non-repeating builds. 5 Thieves is not even functional *with* repeating builds. Without repeating builds? Youre basically playing 2v5. > > Than start doing lfgs on NA(as my hours aren’t great for Eu ats) for 5 guard teams and I promise if I see that I’ll make my team go 5 thief....?.... Why? Too much effort for you to in the end just go "ok that didnt count because [insert stupid excuse here]", or just straight up ignore it and pretend it never happened. But just to make it clear to you, what team would you bring? Remember, 5 non-repeating builds. Guardian is easy. Burn Guardian, Support Firebrand, Longbow Trapper DH, Radiant Greatsword, and idk, bunker DH. Outside of the last one, these are legit powerful builds, that fulfill every role you need, and are completely functional as a teamcomp. Thief on the other hand? Well, you have D/P thief, a decap and +1 bot that cant 1v1 or teamfight. S/D thief, a decap and +1 bot that cant 1v1 or teamfight. DE, a decap and +1 bot that cant 1v1 or teamfight *and* isnt good at being a decap and +1 bot. Core condi thief a ... you get the gist. And then, what, P/P thief, which is also that? Thats 5 builds all fulfilling the same role (which you want only *1* of). Only 2 of them are arguably good. Maybe 3. And none of them can 1v1 a guardian, or even come close to hoping to win a teamfight. So, again, how does that team win? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheman.3589 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > @"DoomNexus.5324" said: > > > > > > > > > I think every class with strong dps AND strong support would definitely win in a "every player has to play another build"-setup. > > > > > > > > > Guard, Rev and Necro would be my top bets. > > > > > > > > > Ele, Ranger, Engi and Warrior would probably be also pretty serious contenders but I doubt there are enough viable builds atm to keep a full team on-par with the ones mentioned earlier. I'm not saying they don't have strong builds but in specifically the setup OP established, I think there's just not enough viable variety with the current balance. > > > > > > > > > Mesmer and thief would probably fail pretty bad since I don't think their support would be nowhere good enough to contend with the others and especially thief would lack pretty much everything in this kind of setup. Mesmer maaaaybe if they'd run different variations of burst builds and manage to end the fight before it even starts but I don't think so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > If u cannot win an at on 5 thief than u bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are u serious?. What great builds do thieves offer? Keep in mind, everyone has to play a different build.. > > > > > > > > > 5 thieves against 5 guards? I doubt there would be any chance for the thieves if the guards are just camping close and mid, there's just nowhere near enough damage nor sustain to do anything. Again.. what great builds have thieves available? p/d condi? Is pretty much useless against guards, especially with a support.. d/p? Nowhere near enough damage to spike through aegis, shields, ... > > > > > > > > > Same for Rev, Necro, probably even Ranger. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine thinking thief can do nothing about aegis and blocks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, sure, you can use shortbow 4 to interrupt blocks, but how exactly do you intend for the thieves to kill the guardians? The guardian can literally just sit on the points and the thieves are powerless to do anything. 5 thieves in general is atrociously bad, 5 thieves and you cant share builds? Yeesh. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok get a team of 5 guards and I’ll gladly beat u with a 5 thief team. > > > > > > > > > > No, you wont. There is a reason people have done well with 5 guard teams in AT before (yes, they were memeing, but still), but no one has even tried to bring a 5 thief team to an AT before. Because they would get clapped and lose in round 1. If I were to put in the effort, what would happen is that your team of 5 thieves would lose embarassingly, and you will ignore it ever happened. But thats not worth the effort. > > > > > > > > I’m sure u can train for months in preparation for a Daily at. Omegalul your embarrassing your self on the forums. > > > > > > Why would I? If we did it tomorrow, the result would still be the guardian team completely clapping the thief team, because 5 guardians is a bad, but functional, team. Even with non-repeating builds. 5 Thieves is not even functional *with* repeating builds. Without repeating builds? Youre basically playing 2v5. > > > > Than start doing lfgs on NA(as my hours aren’t great for Eu ats) for 5 guard teams and I promise if I see that I’ll make my team go 5 thief....?.... > > Why? Too much effort for you to in the end just go "ok that didnt count because [insert stupid excuse here]", or just straight up ignore it and pretend it never happened. > > But just to make it clear to you, what team would you bring? Remember, 5 non-repeating builds. Guardian is easy. Burn Guardian, Support Firebrand, Longbow Trapper DH, Radiant Greatsword, and idk, bunker DH. Outside of the last one, these are legit powerful builds, that fulfill every role you need, and are completely functional as a teamcomp. Thief on the other hand? Well, you have D/P thief, a decap and +1 bot that cant 1v1 or teamfight. S/D thief, a decap and +1 bot that cant 1v1 or teamfight. DE, a decap and +1 bot that cant 1v1 or teamfight *and* isnt good at being a decap and +1 bot. Core condi thief a ... you get the gist. And then, what, P/P thief, which is also that? Thats 5 builds all fulfilling the same role (which you want only *1* of). Only 2 of them are arguably good. Maybe 3. And none of them can 1v1 a guardian, or even come close to hoping to win a teamfight. So, again, how does that team win? You honestly think comp matters when a say plat3+ team goes against an all bronze team in a simple daily at? U mentioned rev as a working comp, but I’ve literally played an at with 5 all power shiro revs, who have never even played rev before. That’s all the same role and us just plussing and guess what it was 500-0... That’s just an example of how simple it would be, now imagine all these ppl have played thief and put together a diverse comp say d/p + s/d roamers, staff aoe, p/p condi side node and p/d thief’s guild ganker/ even match fighter ez. I’ve also seen a legend teir thief bring a staff/staff side build that solidly meme former pro league players in ranked so ez. But then again who even cares if u try to make it balanced comp, no plat3+ team tries to make a balanced comp and just play a build they’ve never played before in ats and 500-0 bronze teir teams and I never mentioned making a diverse comp in the first place so it is literally irrelevant and if you wanna argue that than you are totally degenerate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > @"DoomNexus.5324" said: > > > > > > > > > I think every class with strong dps AND strong support would definitely win in a "every player has to play another build"-setup. > > > > > > > > > Guard, Rev and Necro would be my top bets. > > > > > > > > > Ele, Ranger, Engi and Warrior would probably be also pretty serious contenders but I doubt there are enough viable builds atm to keep a full team on-par with the ones mentioned earlier. I'm not saying they don't have strong builds but in specifically the setup OP established, I think there's just not enough viable variety with the current balance. > > > > > > > > > Mesmer and thief would probably fail pretty bad since I don't think their support would be nowhere good enough to contend with the others and especially thief would lack pretty much everything in this kind of setup. Mesmer maaaaybe if they'd run different variations of burst builds and manage to end the fight before it even starts but I don't think so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > If u cannot win an at on 5 thief than u bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are u serious?. What great builds do thieves offer? Keep in mind, everyone has to play a different build.. > > > > > > > > > 5 thieves against 5 guards? I doubt there would be any chance for the thieves if the guards are just camping close and mid, there's just nowhere near enough damage nor sustain to do anything. Again.. what great builds have thieves available? p/d condi? Is pretty much useless against guards, especially with a support.. d/p? Nowhere near enough damage to spike through aegis, shields, ... > > > > > > > > > Same for Rev, Necro, probably even Ranger. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine thinking thief can do nothing about aegis and blocks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, sure, you can use shortbow 4 to interrupt blocks, but how exactly do you intend for the thieves to kill the guardians? The guardian can literally just sit on the points and the thieves are powerless to do anything. 5 thieves in general is atrociously bad, 5 thieves and you cant share builds? Yeesh. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok get a team of 5 guards and I’ll gladly beat u with a 5 thief team. > > > > > > > > > > No, you wont. There is a reason people have done well with 5 guard teams in AT before (yes, they were memeing, but still), but no one has even tried to bring a 5 thief team to an AT before. Because they would get clapped and lose in round 1. If I were to put in the effort, what would happen is that your team of 5 thieves would lose embarassingly, and you will ignore it ever happened. But thats not worth the effort. > > > > > > > > I’m sure u can train for months in preparation for a Daily at. Omegalul your embarrassing your self on the forums. > > > > > > Why would I? If we did it tomorrow, the result would still be the guardian team completely clapping the thief team, because 5 guardians is a bad, but functional, team. Even with non-repeating builds. 5 Thieves is not even functional *with* repeating builds. Without repeating builds? Youre basically playing 2v5. > > > > Than start doing lfgs on NA(as my hours aren’t great for Eu ats) for 5 guard teams and I promise if I see that I’ll make my team go 5 thief....?.... > > Why? Too much effort for you to in the end just go "ok that didnt count because [insert stupid excuse here]", or just straight up ignore it and pretend it never happened. > > But just to make it clear to you, what team would you bring? Remember, 5 non-repeating builds. Guardian is easy. Burn Guardian, Support Firebrand, Longbow Trapper DH, Radiant Greatsword, and idk, bunker DH. Outside of the last one, these are legit powerful builds, that fulfill every role you need, and are completely functional as a teamcomp. Thief on the other hand? Well, you have D/P thief, a decap and +1 bot that cant 1v1 or teamfight. S/D thief, a decap and +1 bot that cant 1v1 or teamfight. DE, a decap and +1 bot that cant 1v1 or teamfight *and* isnt good at being a decap and +1 bot. Core condi thief a ... you get the gist. And then, what, P/P thief, which is also that? Thats 5 builds all fulfilling the same role (which you want only *1* of). Only 2 of them are arguably good. Maybe 3. And none of them can 1v1 a guardian, or even come close to hoping to win a teamfight. So, again, how does that team win? core support guard might be better than support fb right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar.4257 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 A team of 5 thieves would be a nightmare for a team of 5 guardians to face, IF the 5 thieves are co-ordinating on voice-comms. If it was just a pug group with no voice-comms then yeah, guards would win easily, but voice-comm level co-ordination is a game-changer. Unless the 5 guards all sit together on 1 node, there's plenty of opportunity for thieves to out-rotate and zerg down 1 after the other. 4 thieves spiking out of stealth, stealing stability and spamming unblockable interrupts will very quickly end a guardian which is outnumbered. Once the snowball is started it'd be difficult to stop. Simple example: Both teams split 1-3-1 at start. On each node, into 1v1 or 3v3, the guardian is favoured against the thief. So guardian wins right? But. The 3 thieves on mid just leave, 2 go to far, 1 to close. They'll be able to get there a good 15-20 seconds before the slow guards from mid will be able to follow. They pick up the kills on close and far, so now they have a 5v3 situation on the map and both side-nodes. Obviously it requires a degree of co-ordination that is not available to pugs, but it is in no way a foregone conclusion. It also kinda depends on the map, somewhere with lots of no-ports close to the node like skyhammer of colosseum would be tougher for thieves to snowball on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"DoomNexus.5324" said: > > > > > > > > > > I think every class with strong dps AND strong support would definitely win in a "every player has to play another build"-setup. > > > > > > > > > > Guard, Rev and Necro would be my top bets. > > > > > > > > > > Ele, Ranger, Engi and Warrior would probably be also pretty serious contenders but I doubt there are enough viable builds atm to keep a full team on-par with the ones mentioned earlier. I'm not saying they don't have strong builds but in specifically the setup OP established, I think there's just not enough viable variety with the current balance. > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer and thief would probably fail pretty bad since I don't think their support would be nowhere good enough to contend with the others and especially thief would lack pretty much everything in this kind of setup. Mesmer maaaaybe if they'd run different variations of burst builds and manage to end the fight before it even starts but I don't think so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > If u cannot win an at on 5 thief than u bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are u serious?. What great builds do thieves offer? Keep in mind, everyone has to play a different build.. > > > > > > > > > > 5 thieves against 5 guards? I doubt there would be any chance for the thieves if the guards are just camping close and mid, there's just nowhere near enough damage nor sustain to do anything. Again.. what great builds have thieves available? p/d condi? Is pretty much useless against guards, especially with a support.. d/p? Nowhere near enough damage to spike through aegis, shields, ... > > > > > > > > > > Same for Rev, Necro, probably even Ranger. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine thinking thief can do nothing about aegis and blocks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, sure, you can use shortbow 4 to interrupt blocks, but how exactly do you intend for the thieves to kill the guardians? The guardian can literally just sit on the points and the thieves are powerless to do anything. 5 thieves in general is atrociously bad, 5 thieves and you cant share builds? Yeesh. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok get a team of 5 guards and I’ll gladly beat u with a 5 thief team. > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you wont. There is a reason people have done well with 5 guard teams in AT before (yes, they were memeing, but still), but no one has even tried to bring a 5 thief team to an AT before. Because they would get clapped and lose in round 1. If I were to put in the effort, what would happen is that your team of 5 thieves would lose embarassingly, and you will ignore it ever happened. But thats not worth the effort. > > > > > > > > > > I’m sure u can train for months in preparation for a Daily at. Omegalul your embarrassing your self on the forums. > > > > > > > > Why would I? If we did it tomorrow, the result would still be the guardian team completely clapping the thief team, because 5 guardians is a bad, but functional, team. Even with non-repeating builds. 5 Thieves is not even functional *with* repeating builds. Without repeating builds? Youre basically playing 2v5. > > > > > > Than start doing lfgs on NA(as my hours aren’t great for Eu ats) for 5 guard teams and I promise if I see that I’ll make my team go 5 thief....?.... > > > > Why? Too much effort for you to in the end just go "ok that didnt count because [insert stupid excuse here]", or just straight up ignore it and pretend it never happened. > > > > But just to make it clear to you, what team would you bring? Remember, 5 non-repeating builds. Guardian is easy. Burn Guardian, Support Firebrand, Longbow Trapper DH, Radiant Greatsword, and idk, bunker DH. Outside of the last one, these are legit powerful builds, that fulfill every role you need, and are completely functional as a teamcomp. Thief on the other hand? Well, you have D/P thief, a decap and +1 bot that cant 1v1 or teamfight. S/D thief, a decap and +1 bot that cant 1v1 or teamfight. DE, a decap and +1 bot that cant 1v1 or teamfight *and* isnt good at being a decap and +1 bot. Core condi thief a ... you get the gist. And then, what, P/P thief, which is also that? Thats 5 builds all fulfilling the same role (which you want only *1* of). Only 2 of them are arguably good. Maybe 3. And none of them can 1v1 a guardian, or even come close to hoping to win a teamfight. So, again, how does that team win? > > core support guard might be better than support fb right now Plausible, but I assume the conditions, as they are, would mandate at least one FB, and support FB is probably the best version of FB. Really thats the whole logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"DoomNexus.5324" said: > > > > > > > > > > I think every class with strong dps AND strong support would definitely win in a "every player has to play another build"-setup. > > > > > > > > > > Guard, Rev and Necro would be my top bets. > > > > > > > > > > Ele, Ranger, Engi and Warrior would probably be also pretty serious contenders but I doubt there are enough viable builds atm to keep a full team on-par with the ones mentioned earlier. I'm not saying they don't have strong builds but in specifically the setup OP established, I think there's just not enough viable variety with the current balance. > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer and thief would probably fail pretty bad since I don't think their support would be nowhere good enough to contend with the others and especially thief would lack pretty much everything in this kind of setup. Mesmer maaaaybe if they'd run different variations of burst builds and manage to end the fight before it even starts but I don't think so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > If u cannot win an at on 5 thief than u bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are u serious?. What great builds do thieves offer? Keep in mind, everyone has to play a different build.. > > > > > > > > > > 5 thieves against 5 guards? I doubt there would be any chance for the thieves if the guards are just camping close and mid, there's just nowhere near enough damage nor sustain to do anything. Again.. what great builds have thieves available? p/d condi? Is pretty much useless against guards, especially with a support.. d/p? Nowhere near enough damage to spike through aegis, shields, ... > > > > > > > > > > Same for Rev, Necro, probably even Ranger. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine thinking thief can do nothing about aegis and blocks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, sure, you can use shortbow 4 to interrupt blocks, but how exactly do you intend for the thieves to kill the guardians? The guardian can literally just sit on the points and the thieves are powerless to do anything. 5 thieves in general is atrociously bad, 5 thieves and you cant share builds? Yeesh. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok get a team of 5 guards and I’ll gladly beat u with a 5 thief team. > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you wont. There is a reason people have done well with 5 guard teams in AT before (yes, they were memeing, but still), but no one has even tried to bring a 5 thief team to an AT before. Because they would get clapped and lose in round 1. If I were to put in the effort, what would happen is that your team of 5 thieves would lose embarassingly, and you will ignore it ever happened. But thats not worth the effort. > > > > > > > > > > I’m sure u can train for months in preparation for a Daily at. Omegalul your embarrassing your self on the forums. > > > > > > > > Why would I? If we did it tomorrow, the result would still be the guardian team completely clapping the thief team, because 5 guardians is a bad, but functional, team. Even with non-repeating builds. 5 Thieves is not even functional *with* repeating builds. Without repeating builds? Youre basically playing 2v5. > > > > > > Than start doing lfgs on NA(as my hours aren’t great for Eu ats) for 5 guard teams and I promise if I see that I’ll make my team go 5 thief....?.... > > > > Why? Too much effort for you to in the end just go "ok that didnt count because [insert stupid excuse here]", or just straight up ignore it and pretend it never happened. > > > > But just to make it clear to you, what team would you bring? Remember, 5 non-repeating builds. Guardian is easy. Burn Guardian, Support Firebrand, Longbow Trapper DH, Radiant Greatsword, and idk, bunker DH. Outside of the last one, these are legit powerful builds, that fulfill every role you need, and are completely functional as a teamcomp. Thief on the other hand? Well, you have D/P thief, a decap and +1 bot that cant 1v1 or teamfight. S/D thief, a decap and +1 bot that cant 1v1 or teamfight. DE, a decap and +1 bot that cant 1v1 or teamfight *and* isnt good at being a decap and +1 bot. Core condi thief a ... you get the gist. And then, what, P/P thief, which is also that? Thats 5 builds all fulfilling the same role (which you want only *1* of). Only 2 of them are arguably good. Maybe 3. And none of them can 1v1 a guardian, or even come close to hoping to win a teamfight. So, again, how does that team win? > > You honestly think comp matters when a say plat3+ team goes against an all bronze team in a simple daily at? U mentioned rev as a working comp, but I’ve literally played an at with 5 all power shiro revs, who have never even played rev before. That’s all the same role and us just plussing and guess what it was 500-0... Yeah, except the question is "what if *two evenly matched teams* use the same profession with non-repeating builds". So imagine you have a plat3+ team of thieves, and a plat3+ team of guardians. Do you think thieves have even the *slightest* chance of winning it? Because they dont. > That’s just an example of how simple it would be, now imagine all these ppl have played thief and put together a diverse comp say d/p + s/d roamers, staff aoe, p/p condi side node and p/d thief’s guild ganker/ even match fighter ez. I’ve also seen a legend teir thief bring a staff/staff side build that solidly meme former pro league players in ranked so ez. But then again who even cares if u try to make it balanced comp, no plat3+ team tries to make a balanced comp and just play a build they’ve never played before in ats and 500-0 bronze teir teams and I never mentioned making a diverse comp in the first place so it is literally irrelevant and if you wanna argue that than you are totally degenerate... No, its really not. Its just you saying "if the enemies are bad enough, even a completely non-functional team can win". Your hypothetical team loses to guardians. They cant win teamfights. They cant win sidenode skirmishes. They simply lose. The guardians hold mid and close, and just sit on them ad infinitum, winning by points, as the theives fruitlessly try and fail to kill a single one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > A team of 5 thieves would be a nightmare for a team of 5 guardians to face, IF the 5 thieves are co-ordinating on voice-comms. If it was just a pug group with no voice-comms then yeah, guards would win easily, but voice-comm level co-ordination is a game-changer. > No it wouldnt be. > Unless the 5 guards all sit together on 1 node, there's plenty of opportunity for thieves to out-rotate and zerg down 1 after the other. 4 thieves spiking out of stealth, stealing stability and spamming unblockable interrupts will very quickly end a guardian which is outnumbered. Once the snowball is started it'd be difficult to stop. > Yeah actually that wouldnt happen. Here is what the guardians do. 3 mid, 2 close, one of the ones going close being a bunker. Lets say DH bunker. The Guardians take mid and close, because thieves lose those fights, then hold them ad infinitum as the thieves are powerless to stop any of it. > Simple example: > > Both teams split 1-3-1 at start. > Why would they guardian send any far? They just go 3-2. > On each node, into 1v1 or 3v3, the guardian is favoured against the thief. So guardian wins right? > Actually even if its a 3v5 mid, guardian wins. They take mid and close, and just sit on them. > But. > > The 3 thieves on mid just leave, 2 go to far, 1 to close. They'll be able to get there a good 15-20 seconds before the slow guards from mid will be able to follow. > Ok, lets say all 5 thieves go close. 2 guardians from mid move. One takes far, the other goes close. The ones on close will be able to survive of course until the third one arrives (remember, one is a bunker), and once the third one arrives, its a teamfight they win once more. The thieves lose a point, and fail to pick up anything. > They pick up the kills on close and far, so now they have a 5v3 situation on the map and both side-nodes. > Oh they wont get any kills. The situation will remain a 5v5 on paper, but a 2v5 in practice, because most of the thieves are useless. > Obviously it requires a degree of co-ordination that is not available to pugs, but it is in no way a foregone conclusion. It also kinda depends on the map, somewhere with lots of no-ports close to the node like skyhammer of colosseum would be tougher for thieves to snowball on. Oh it absolutely is a foregone conclusion. The fact that thieves cant kill guardians unless they *really* outnumber them (And even then only slowly) makes it impossible for them to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheman.3589 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"DoomNexus.5324" said: > > > > > > > > > > > I think every class with strong dps AND strong support would definitely win in a "every player has to play another build"-setup. > > > > > > > > > > > Guard, Rev and Necro would be my top bets. > > > > > > > > > > > Ele, Ranger, Engi and Warrior would probably be also pretty serious contenders but I doubt there are enough viable builds atm to keep a full team on-par with the ones mentioned earlier. I'm not saying they don't have strong builds but in specifically the setup OP established, I think there's just not enough viable variety with the current balance. > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer and thief would probably fail pretty bad since I don't think their support would be nowhere good enough to contend with the others and especially thief would lack pretty much everything in this kind of setup. Mesmer maaaaybe if they'd run different variations of burst builds and manage to end the fight before it even starts but I don't think so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > If u cannot win an at on 5 thief than u bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are u serious?. What great builds do thieves offer? Keep in mind, everyone has to play a different build.. > > > > > > > > > > > 5 thieves against 5 guards? I doubt there would be any chance for the thieves if the guards are just camping close and mid, there's just nowhere near enough damage nor sustain to do anything. Again.. what great builds have thieves available? p/d condi? Is pretty much useless against guards, especially with a support.. d/p? Nowhere near enough damage to spike through aegis, shields, ... > > > > > > > > > > > Same for Rev, Necro, probably even Ranger. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine thinking thief can do nothing about aegis and blocks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, sure, you can use shortbow 4 to interrupt blocks, but how exactly do you intend for the thieves to kill the guardians? The guardian can literally just sit on the points and the thieves are powerless to do anything. 5 thieves in general is atrociously bad, 5 thieves and you cant share builds? Yeesh. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok get a team of 5 guards and I’ll gladly beat u with a 5 thief team. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you wont. There is a reason people have done well with 5 guard teams in AT before (yes, they were memeing, but still), but no one has even tried to bring a 5 thief team to an AT before. Because they would get clapped and lose in round 1. If I were to put in the effort, what would happen is that your team of 5 thieves would lose embarassingly, and you will ignore it ever happened. But thats not worth the effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > I’m sure u can train for months in preparation for a Daily at. Omegalul your embarrassing your self on the forums. > > > > > > > > > > Why would I? If we did it tomorrow, the result would still be the guardian team completely clapping the thief team, because 5 guardians is a bad, but functional, team. Even with non-repeating builds. 5 Thieves is not even functional *with* repeating builds. Without repeating builds? Youre basically playing 2v5. > > > > > > > > Than start doing lfgs on NA(as my hours aren’t great for Eu ats) for 5 guard teams and I promise if I see that I’ll make my team go 5 thief....?.... > > > > > > Why? Too much effort for you to in the end just go "ok that didnt count because [insert stupid excuse here]", or just straight up ignore it and pretend it never happened. > > > > > > But just to make it clear to you, what team would you bring? Remember, 5 non-repeating builds. Guardian is easy. Burn Guardian, Support Firebrand, Longbow Trapper DH, Radiant Greatsword, and idk, bunker DH. Outside of the last one, these are legit powerful builds, that fulfill every role you need, and are completely functional as a teamcomp. Thief on the other hand? Well, you have D/P thief, a decap and +1 bot that cant 1v1 or teamfight. S/D thief, a decap and +1 bot that cant 1v1 or teamfight. DE, a decap and +1 bot that cant 1v1 or teamfight *and* isnt good at being a decap and +1 bot. Core condi thief a ... you get the gist. And then, what, P/P thief, which is also that? Thats 5 builds all fulfilling the same role (which you want only *1* of). Only 2 of them are arguably good. Maybe 3. And none of them can 1v1 a guardian, or even come close to hoping to win a teamfight. So, again, how does that team win? > > > > You honestly think comp matters when a say plat3+ team goes against an all bronze team in a simple daily at? U mentioned rev as a working comp, but I’ve literally played an at with 5 all power shiro revs, who have never even played rev before. That’s all the same role and us just plussing and guess what it was 500-0... > > Yeah, except the question is "what if *two evenly matched teams* use the same profession with non-repeating builds". So imagine you have a plat3+ team of thieves, and a plat3+ team of guardians. Do you think thieves have even the *slightest* chance of winning it? Because they dont. > > > That’s just an example of how simple it would be, now imagine all these ppl have played thief and put together a diverse comp say d/p + s/d roamers, staff aoe, p/p condi side node and p/d thief’s guild ganker/ even match fighter ez. I’ve also seen a legend teir thief bring a staff/staff side build that solidly meme former pro league players in ranked so ez. But then again who even cares if u try to make it balanced comp, no plat3+ team tries to make a balanced comp and just play a build they’ve never played before in ats and 500-0 bronze teir teams and I never mentioned making a diverse comp in the first place so it is literally irrelevant and if you wanna argue that than you are totally degenerate... > > No, its really not. Its just you saying "if the enemies are bad enough, even a completely non-functional team can win". Your hypothetical team loses to guardians. They cant win teamfights. They cant win sidenode skirmishes. They simply lose. The guardians hold mid and close, and just sit on them ad infinitum, winning by points, as the theives fruitlessly try and fail to kill a single one. No that is not the question you are literally trying to argue that it’s impossible to win an at on 5 thief. I mean omegalul I did that last night it was ezpz and my team wasn’t even very stacked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheman.3589 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > A team of 5 thieves would be a nightmare for a team of 5 guardians to face, IF the 5 thieves are co-ordinating on voice-comms. If it was just a pug group with no voice-comms then yeah, guards would win easily, but voice-comm level co-ordination is a game-changer. > > > > No it wouldnt be. > > > Unless the 5 guards all sit together on 1 node, there's plenty of opportunity for thieves to out-rotate and zerg down 1 after the other. 4 thieves spiking out of stealth, stealing stability and spamming unblockable interrupts will very quickly end a guardian which is outnumbered. Once the snowball is started it'd be difficult to stop. > > > > Yeah actually that wouldnt happen. Here is what the guardians do. 3 mid, 2 close, one of the ones going close being a bunker. Lets say DH bunker. The Guardians take mid and close, because thieves lose those fights, then hold them ad infinitum as the thieves are powerless to stop any of it. > > > Simple example: > > > > Both teams split 1-3-1 at start. > > > > Why would they guardian send any far? They just go 3-2. > > > On each node, into 1v1 or 3v3, the guardian is favoured against the thief. So guardian wins right? > > > > Actually even if its a 3v5 mid, guardian wins. They take mid and close, and just sit on them. > > > But. > > > > The 3 thieves on mid just leave, 2 go to far, 1 to close. They'll be able to get there a good 15-20 seconds before the slow guards from mid will be able to follow. > > > > Ok, lets say all 5 thieves go close. 2 guardians from mid move. One takes far, the other goes close. The ones on close will be able to survive of course until the third one arrives (remember, one is a bunker), and once the third one arrives, its a teamfight they win once more. The thieves lose a point, and fail to pick up anything. > > > They pick up the kills on close and far, so now they have a 5v3 situation on the map and both side-nodes. > > > > Oh they wont get any kills. The situation will remain a 5v5 on paper, but a 2v5 in practice, because most of the thieves are useless. > > > Obviously it requires a degree of co-ordination that is not available to pugs, but it is in no way a foregone conclusion. It also kinda depends on the map, somewhere with lots of no-ports close to the node like skyhammer of colosseum would be tougher for thieves to snowball on. > > Oh it absolutely is a foregone conclusion. The fact that thieves cant kill guardians unless they *really* outnumber them (And even then only slowly) makes it impossible for them to win. Hmm ? losing 2v5 to 2 guardians maybe you should’ve spent those months of practice to try and finally win a daily on thief instead of guardian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wevh.2903 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 > @"Exile.8160" said: > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > I think guardian since you have a decent build for every role . > > Lool guard only has burn, everyyhing else they had has been neef into nothingness. > > I would say mecro because they can use use everything, scorge core and reaper. Giardian has support core wich is pretty decent , sagebrand is still pretty decent and bunker core symbols for sidenoding too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoomNexus.5324 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > @"DoomNexus.5324" said: > > > > > > I think every class with strong dps AND strong support would definitely win in a "every player has to play another build"-setup. > > > > > > Guard, Rev and Necro would be my top bets. > > > > > > Ele, Ranger, Engi and Warrior would probably be also pretty serious contenders but I doubt there are enough viable builds atm to keep a full team on-par with the ones mentioned earlier. I'm not saying they don't have strong builds but in specifically the setup OP established, I think there's just not enough viable variety with the current balance. > > > > > > Mesmer and thief would probably fail pretty bad since I don't think their support would be nowhere good enough to contend with the others and especially thief would lack pretty much everything in this kind of setup. Mesmer maaaaybe if they'd run different variations of burst builds and manage to end the fight before it even starts but I don't think so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > If u cannot win an at on 5 thief than u bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > Are u serious?. What great builds do thieves offer? Keep in mind, everyone has to play a different build.. > > > > > > 5 thieves against 5 guards? I doubt there would be any chance for the thieves if the guards are just camping close and mid, there's just nowhere near enough damage nor sustain to do anything. Again.. what great builds have thieves available? p/d condi? Is pretty much useless against guards, especially with a support.. d/p? Nowhere near enough damage to spike through aegis, shields, ... > > > > > > Same for Rev, Necro, probably even Ranger. > > > > > > > > > > Imagine thinking thief can do nothing about aegis and blocks > > > > > > > > I mean, sure, you can use shortbow 4 to interrupt blocks, but how exactly do you intend for the thieves to kill the guardians? The guardian can literally just sit on the points and the thieves are powerless to do anything. 5 thieves in general is atrociously bad, 5 thieves and you cant share builds? Yeesh. > > > > > > Ok get a team of 5 guards and I’ll gladly beat u with a 5 thief team. > > > > No, you wont. There is a reason people have done well with 5 guard teams in AT before (yes, they were memeing, but still), but no one has even tried to bring a 5 thief team to an AT before. Because they would get clapped and lose in round 1. If I were to put in the effort, what would happen is that your team of 5 thieves would lose embarassingly, and you will ignore it ever happened. But thats not worth the effort. > > NoOnEhaSeVRbroUghTa5tEeFteamToanAtbeFore You don't get it huh? It's not just _AN_ AT, OP specifically states special rules. Out of curiosity, which builds did you guys run on those 5 thieves? Everyone a completely different one? And did you fight against another 5-man stacked team following exactly those rules as well? Like.. You can't just say "yea I've done that yesterday" since this, with almost 100% certainty, didn't happen under the exact rules stated by OP and with the expectation for them to be fulfilled for both teams. So unless your AT the other day happened exactly like "5 thieves - _everyone with a different build! - fought against 5 X _everyone with a different build as well!_" your example of your AT is invalid here and has absolutely no business in being picked in this case. But after skimming through the thread I can only assume you're trolling and spaming kitten, so I won't look at this thread anymore, bye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheman.3589 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 > @"DoomNexus.5324" said: > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > @"DoomNexus.5324" said: > > > > > > > I think every class with strong dps AND strong support would definitely win in a "every player has to play another build"-setup. > > > > > > > Guard, Rev and Necro would be my top bets. > > > > > > > Ele, Ranger, Engi and Warrior would probably be also pretty serious contenders but I doubt there are enough viable builds atm to keep a full team on-par with the ones mentioned earlier. I'm not saying they don't have strong builds but in specifically the setup OP established, I think there's just not enough viable variety with the current balance. > > > > > > > Mesmer and thief would probably fail pretty bad since I don't think their support would be nowhere good enough to contend with the others and especially thief would lack pretty much everything in this kind of setup. Mesmer maaaaybe if they'd run different variations of burst builds and manage to end the fight before it even starts but I don't think so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > If u cannot win an at on 5 thief than u bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are u serious?. What great builds do thieves offer? Keep in mind, everyone has to play a different build.. > > > > > > > 5 thieves against 5 guards? I doubt there would be any chance for the thieves if the guards are just camping close and mid, there's just nowhere near enough damage nor sustain to do anything. Again.. what great builds have thieves available? p/d condi? Is pretty much useless against guards, especially with a support.. d/p? Nowhere near enough damage to spike through aegis, shields, ... > > > > > > > Same for Rev, Necro, probably even Ranger. > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine thinking thief can do nothing about aegis and blocks > > > > > > > > > > I mean, sure, you can use shortbow 4 to interrupt blocks, but how exactly do you intend for the thieves to kill the guardians? The guardian can literally just sit on the points and the thieves are powerless to do anything. 5 thieves in general is atrociously bad, 5 thieves and you cant share builds? Yeesh. > > > > > > > > Ok get a team of 5 guards and I’ll gladly beat u with a 5 thief team. > > > > > > No, you wont. There is a reason people have done well with 5 guard teams in AT before (yes, they were memeing, but still), but no one has even tried to bring a 5 thief team to an AT before. Because they would get clapped and lose in round 1. If I were to put in the effort, what would happen is that your team of 5 thieves would lose embarassingly, and you will ignore it ever happened. But thats not worth the effort. > > > > NoOnEhaSeVRbroUghTa5tEeFteamToanAtbeFore > > You don't get it huh? It's not just _AN_ AT, OP specifically states special rules. Out of curiosity, which builds did you guys run on those 5 thieves? Everyone a completely different one? And did you fight against another 5-man stacked team following exactly those rules as well? > Like.. You can't just say "yea I've done that yesterday" since this, with almost 100% certainty, didn't happen under the exact rules stated by OP and with the expectation for them to be fulfilled for both teams. > So unless your AT the other day happened exactly like "5 thieves - _everyone with a different build! - fought against 5 X _everyone with a different build as well!_" your example of your AT is invalid here and has absolutely no business in being picked in this case. > > But after skimming through the thread I can only assume you're trolling and spaming kitten, so I won't look at this thread anymore, bye. Are u seriously trying to argue that a 5 thief team cannot win an at? Like I said in a quote that you didn’t even quote for some bizarre reason- I won an at with 5 different thiefs against teams that literally x5 better than some I’ve seen in finals and besides me there was only 1 duke as highest rated other player. U can win an at on 5 of anything and if you think bringing a worse comp than these plat+ teams, one had a god of pvp + best of best btw. Than idk what to say... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > A team of 5 thieves would be a nightmare for a team of 5 guardians to face, IF the 5 thieves are co-ordinating on voice-comms. If it was just a pug group with no voice-comms then yeah, guards would win easily, but voice-comm level co-ordination is a game-changer. > > > > > > > No it wouldnt be. > > > > > Unless the 5 guards all sit together on 1 node, there's plenty of opportunity for thieves to out-rotate and zerg down 1 after the other. 4 thieves spiking out of stealth, stealing stability and spamming unblockable interrupts will very quickly end a guardian which is outnumbered. Once the snowball is started it'd be difficult to stop. > > > > > > > Yeah actually that wouldnt happen. Here is what the guardians do. 3 mid, 2 close, one of the ones going close being a bunker. Lets say DH bunker. The Guardians take mid and close, because thieves lose those fights, then hold them ad infinitum as the thieves are powerless to stop any of it. > > > > > Simple example: > > > > > > Both teams split 1-3-1 at start. > > > > > > > Why would they guardian send any far? They just go 3-2. > > > > > On each node, into 1v1 or 3v3, the guardian is favoured against the thief. So guardian wins right? > > > > > > > Actually even if its a 3v5 mid, guardian wins. They take mid and close, and just sit on them. > > > > > But. > > > > > > The 3 thieves on mid just leave, 2 go to far, 1 to close. They'll be able to get there a good 15-20 seconds before the slow guards from mid will be able to follow. > > > > > > > Ok, lets say all 5 thieves go close. 2 guardians from mid move. One takes far, the other goes close. The ones on close will be able to survive of course until the third one arrives (remember, one is a bunker), and once the third one arrives, its a teamfight they win once more. The thieves lose a point, and fail to pick up anything. > > > > > They pick up the kills on close and far, so now they have a 5v3 situation on the map and both side-nodes. > > > > > > > Oh they wont get any kills. The situation will remain a 5v5 on paper, but a 2v5 in practice, because most of the thieves are useless. > > > > > Obviously it requires a degree of co-ordination that is not available to pugs, but it is in no way a foregone conclusion. It also kinda depends on the map, somewhere with lots of no-ports close to the node like skyhammer of colosseum would be tougher for thieves to snowball on. > > > > Oh it absolutely is a foregone conclusion. The fact that thieves cant kill guardians unless they *really* outnumber them (And even then only slowly) makes it impossible for them to win. > > Hmm ? losing 2v5 to 2 guardians maybe you should’ve spent those months of practice to try and finally win a daily on thief instead of guardian 3v5. 2v5 the thieves might win, but not fast enough to do so before reinforcements arrive and turn the fight around. And if you cant win a 3v5 against 5 thieves as guardians, maybe you should try learning guardian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheman.3589 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > A team of 5 thieves would be a nightmare for a team of 5 guardians to face, IF the 5 thieves are co-ordinating on voice-comms. If it was just a pug group with no voice-comms then yeah, guards would win easily, but voice-comm level co-ordination is a game-changer. > > > > > > > > > > No it wouldnt be. > > > > > > > Unless the 5 guards all sit together on 1 node, there's plenty of opportunity for thieves to out-rotate and zerg down 1 after the other. 4 thieves spiking out of stealth, stealing stability and spamming unblockable interrupts will very quickly end a guardian which is outnumbered. Once the snowball is started it'd be difficult to stop. > > > > > > > > > > Yeah actually that wouldnt happen. Here is what the guardians do. 3 mid, 2 close, one of the ones going close being a bunker. Lets say DH bunker. The Guardians take mid and close, because thieves lose those fights, then hold them ad infinitum as the thieves are powerless to stop any of it. > > > > > > > Simple example: > > > > > > > > Both teams split 1-3-1 at start. > > > > > > > > > > Why would they guardian send any far? They just go 3-2. > > > > > > > On each node, into 1v1 or 3v3, the guardian is favoured against the thief. So guardian wins right? > > > > > > > > > > Actually even if its a 3v5 mid, guardian wins. They take mid and close, and just sit on them. > > > > > > > But. > > > > > > > > The 3 thieves on mid just leave, 2 go to far, 1 to close. They'll be able to get there a good 15-20 seconds before the slow guards from mid will be able to follow. > > > > > > > > > > Ok, lets say all 5 thieves go close. 2 guardians from mid move. One takes far, the other goes close. The ones on close will be able to survive of course until the third one arrives (remember, one is a bunker), and once the third one arrives, its a teamfight they win once more. The thieves lose a point, and fail to pick up anything. > > > > > > > They pick up the kills on close and far, so now they have a 5v3 situation on the map and both side-nodes. > > > > > > > > > > Oh they wont get any kills. The situation will remain a 5v5 on paper, but a 2v5 in practice, because most of the thieves are useless. > > > > > > > Obviously it requires a degree of co-ordination that is not available to pugs, but it is in no way a foregone conclusion. It also kinda depends on the map, somewhere with lots of no-ports close to the node like skyhammer of colosseum would be tougher for thieves to snowball on. > > > > > > Oh it absolutely is a foregone conclusion. The fact that thieves cant kill guardians unless they *really* outnumber them (And even then only slowly) makes it impossible for them to win. > > > > Hmm ? losing 2v5 to 2 guardians maybe you should’ve spent those months of practice to try and finally win a daily on thief instead of guardian > > 3v5. 2v5 the thieves might win, but not fast enough to do so before reinforcements arrive and turn the fight around. And if you cant win a 3v5 against 5 thieves as guardians, maybe you should try learning guardian. Are u seriously gonna argue that. As Ragnar, a top 25 guard main, pointed out 5 thief’s on 1 guard is an insta kill. It doesn’t matter if it’s 2,3 or 4. You get 1 insta kill and u don’t have to 3v5, though I’ll admit in a team fight burn stacks could meme a thief and if the guards are good enough they could just rev them, but a good thief team would see 1 death or a Rez and all rotate while the guards would show up 10 secs too late. It would just take 1 fight on sides to snowball to start a massive snowball and on a map like coliseum where thief is insanely good and guard is only so-so then this would be a no brained for a team on comma to accomplish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > A team of 5 thieves would be a nightmare for a team of 5 guardians to face, IF the 5 thieves are co-ordinating on voice-comms. If it was just a pug group with no voice-comms then yeah, guards would win easily, but voice-comm level co-ordination is a game-changer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it wouldnt be. > > > > > > > > > Unless the 5 guards all sit together on 1 node, there's plenty of opportunity for thieves to out-rotate and zerg down 1 after the other. 4 thieves spiking out of stealth, stealing stability and spamming unblockable interrupts will very quickly end a guardian which is outnumbered. Once the snowball is started it'd be difficult to stop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah actually that wouldnt happen. Here is what the guardians do. 3 mid, 2 close, one of the ones going close being a bunker. Lets say DH bunker. The Guardians take mid and close, because thieves lose those fights, then hold them ad infinitum as the thieves are powerless to stop any of it. > > > > > > > > > Simple example: > > > > > > > > > > Both teams split 1-3-1 at start. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would they guardian send any far? They just go 3-2. > > > > > > > > > On each node, into 1v1 or 3v3, the guardian is favoured against the thief. So guardian wins right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually even if its a 3v5 mid, guardian wins. They take mid and close, and just sit on them. > > > > > > > > > But. > > > > > > > > > > The 3 thieves on mid just leave, 2 go to far, 1 to close. They'll be able to get there a good 15-20 seconds before the slow guards from mid will be able to follow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, lets say all 5 thieves go close. 2 guardians from mid move. One takes far, the other goes close. The ones on close will be able to survive of course until the third one arrives (remember, one is a bunker), and once the third one arrives, its a teamfight they win once more. The thieves lose a point, and fail to pick up anything. > > > > > > > > > They pick up the kills on close and far, so now they have a 5v3 situation on the map and both side-nodes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh they wont get any kills. The situation will remain a 5v5 on paper, but a 2v5 in practice, because most of the thieves are useless. > > > > > > > > > Obviously it requires a degree of co-ordination that is not available to pugs, but it is in no way a foregone conclusion. It also kinda depends on the map, somewhere with lots of no-ports close to the node like skyhammer of colosseum would be tougher for thieves to snowball on. > > > > > > > > Oh it absolutely is a foregone conclusion. The fact that thieves cant kill guardians unless they *really* outnumber them (And even then only slowly) makes it impossible for them to win. > > > > > > Hmm ? losing 2v5 to 2 guardians maybe you should’ve spent those months of practice to try and finally win a daily on thief instead of guardian > > > > 3v5. 2v5 the thieves might win, but not fast enough to do so before reinforcements arrive and turn the fight around. And if you cant win a 3v5 against 5 thieves as guardians, maybe you should try learning guardian. > > Are u seriously gonna argue that. As Ragnar, a top 25 guard main, pointed out 5 thief’s on 1 guard is an insta kill. It doesn’t matter if it’s 2,3 or 4. You get 1 insta kill and u don’t have to 3v5, though I’ll admit in a team fight burn stacks could meme a thief and if the guards are good enough they could just rev them, but a good thief team would see 1 death or a Rez and all rotate while the guards would show up 10 secs too late. It would just take 1 fight on sides to snowball to start a massive snowball and on a map like coliseum where thief is insanely good and guard is only so-so then this would be a no brained for a team on comma to accomplish Ill take "what is a bunker" and "what is ressing" and "what is invulnerability" each for 500. You maybe down one guy, then he gets ressed immediately and youre back to square one. And thats assuming you even down the one guy. After all, backstab thieves burst is already pretty poor, and you only get the one. The others are going to have to play different builds. With worse and more telegraphed burst. The guardian can just use his defenses and remain completely fine. It would take 1 *successful* fight. Unfortunately for the thieves, they will not get a succesful fight. Here is whats going to happen. The guardians will send 3 mid, and 2 close. They will take both points. The thieves will obviously have no chance of ever taking mid. They lose the fight 5v3 100% of the time. So, lets say the thieves then go 5 close, to try and get that point. While they do win the 5v2 eventually, since the ones on close are a bunker and one at least reasonably tanky guardian ,they will do so much too slowly. The guardians at mid will dispatch 2. One goes far, and takes the now undefended thief point literally for free. The other goes close as reinforcement, turning the fight into a 3v5 that the guardians win again. The thieves lose one point for free, and gain nothing. Thieves only advantage is that they rotate faster. An advantage that is meaningless when no matter where you go on the map, you lose. Now if it was 5 thieves including repeating builds they ... still would lose obviously, but they'd have more of a chance. But non-repeating builds? Yeah no thats a loss 100% of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buran.3796 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 > @"TeqkOneStylez.8047" said: > This comes down to Warrior VS Guard grand finals imo Guardians have only decent builds at core and DH at the moment: Firebrand is weak at every role. On the other hand, Revs have power Herald, condi Renegade, condi Herald, power Renegade and some bunker options (Ventari doesn't count: is subpar). Warrior at the moment has a good support build which is tanky and does damage, but the class lacks in top placed build variety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheman.3589 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > A team of 5 thieves would be a nightmare for a team of 5 guardians to face, IF the 5 thieves are co-ordinating on voice-comms. If it was just a pug group with no voice-comms then yeah, guards would win easily, but voice-comm level co-ordination is a game-changer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it wouldnt be. > > > > > > > > > > > Unless the 5 guards all sit together on 1 node, there's plenty of opportunity for thieves to out-rotate and zerg down 1 after the other. 4 thieves spiking out of stealth, stealing stability and spamming unblockable interrupts will very quickly end a guardian which is outnumbered. Once the snowball is started it'd be difficult to stop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah actually that wouldnt happen. Here is what the guardians do. 3 mid, 2 close, one of the ones going close being a bunker. Lets say DH bunker. The Guardians take mid and close, because thieves lose those fights, then hold them ad infinitum as the thieves are powerless to stop any of it. > > > > > > > > > > > Simple example: > > > > > > > > > > > > Both teams split 1-3-1 at start. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would they guardian send any far? They just go 3-2. > > > > > > > > > > > On each node, into 1v1 or 3v3, the guardian is favoured against the thief. So guardian wins right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually even if its a 3v5 mid, guardian wins. They take mid and close, and just sit on them. > > > > > > > > > > > But. > > > > > > > > > > > > The 3 thieves on mid just leave, 2 go to far, 1 to close. They'll be able to get there a good 15-20 seconds before the slow guards from mid will be able to follow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, lets say all 5 thieves go close. 2 guardians from mid move. One takes far, the other goes close. The ones on close will be able to survive of course until the third one arrives (remember, one is a bunker), and once the third one arrives, its a teamfight they win once more. The thieves lose a point, and fail to pick up anything. > > > > > > > > > > > They pick up the kills on close and far, so now they have a 5v3 situation on the map and both side-nodes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh they wont get any kills. The situation will remain a 5v5 on paper, but a 2v5 in practice, because most of the thieves are useless. > > > > > > > > > > > Obviously it requires a degree of co-ordination that is not available to pugs, but it is in no way a foregone conclusion. It also kinda depends on the map, somewhere with lots of no-ports close to the node like skyhammer of colosseum would be tougher for thieves to snowball on. > > > > > > > > > > Oh it absolutely is a foregone conclusion. The fact that thieves cant kill guardians unless they *really* outnumber them (And even then only slowly) makes it impossible for them to win. > > > > > > > > Hmm ? losing 2v5 to 2 guardians maybe you should’ve spent those months of practice to try and finally win a daily on thief instead of guardian > > > > > > 3v5. 2v5 the thieves might win, but not fast enough to do so before reinforcements arrive and turn the fight around. And if you cant win a 3v5 against 5 thieves as guardians, maybe you should try learning guardian. > > > > Are u seriously gonna argue that. As Ragnar, a top 25 guard main, pointed out 5 thief’s on 1 guard is an insta kill. It doesn’t matter if it’s 2,3 or 4. You get 1 insta kill and u don’t have to 3v5, though I’ll admit in a team fight burn stacks could meme a thief and if the guards are good enough they could just rev them, but a good thief team would see 1 death or a Rez and all rotate while the guards would show up 10 secs too late. It would just take 1 fight on sides to snowball to start a massive snowball and on a map like coliseum where thief is insanely good and guard is only so-so then this would be a no brained for a team on comma to accomplish > > Ill take "what is a bunker" and "what is ressing" and "what is invulnerability" each for 500. You maybe down one guy, then he gets ressed immediately and youre back to square one. And thats assuming you even down the one guy. After all, backstab thieves burst is already pretty poor, and you only get the one. The others are going to have to play different builds. With worse and more telegraphed burst. The guardian can just use his defenses and remain completely fine. > > It would take 1 *successful* fight. Unfortunately for the thieves, they will not get a succesful fight. Here is whats going to happen. The guardians will send 3 mid, and 2 close. They will take both points. The thieves will obviously have no chance of ever taking mid. They lose the fight 5v3 100% of the time. So, lets say the thieves then go 5 close, to try and get that point. While they do win the 5v2 eventually, since the ones on close are a bunker and one at least reasonably tanky guardian ,they will do so much too slowly. The guardians at mid will dispatch 2. One goes far, and takes the now undefended thief point literally for free. The other goes close as reinforcement, turning the fight into a 3v5 that the guardians win again. The thieves lose one point for free, and gain nothing. Thieves only advantage is that they rotate faster. An advantage that is meaningless when no matter where you go on the map, you lose. > > Now if it was 5 thieves including repeating builds they ... still would lose obviously, but they'd have more of a chance. But non-repeating builds? Yeah no thats a loss 100% of the time. Ok so you think the 1 “support firebrand” will have precast signet of mercy on his 1 player that got insta downed ? It’s laughable- 5 fully stealthed thief’s will have 1 shot him/her out of stealth and guess what they will try to rez and not get it unless against bots and a support firebrand would be so squish that he will die and have no chance to get the rez, maybe you have a burn or 1 shot dh down someone but they will probably rally if they got that lucky. this miraclous 3v5 comp of mostly underperforming specs would insta die too. Again you seem completely convince you would never lose a 3v5 so why don’t you try it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > > A team of 5 thieves would be a nightmare for a team of 5 guardians to face, IF the 5 thieves are co-ordinating on voice-comms. If it was just a pug group with no voice-comms then yeah, guards would win easily, but voice-comm level co-ordination is a game-changer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it wouldnt be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unless the 5 guards all sit together on 1 node, there's plenty of opportunity for thieves to out-rotate and zerg down 1 after the other. 4 thieves spiking out of stealth, stealing stability and spamming unblockable interrupts will very quickly end a guardian which is outnumbered. Once the snowball is started it'd be difficult to stop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah actually that wouldnt happen. Here is what the guardians do. 3 mid, 2 close, one of the ones going close being a bunker. Lets say DH bunker. The Guardians take mid and close, because thieves lose those fights, then hold them ad infinitum as the thieves are powerless to stop any of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simple example: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both teams split 1-3-1 at start. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would they guardian send any far? They just go 3-2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > On each node, into 1v1 or 3v3, the guardian is favoured against the thief. So guardian wins right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually even if its a 3v5 mid, guardian wins. They take mid and close, and just sit on them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > But. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The 3 thieves on mid just leave, 2 go to far, 1 to close. They'll be able to get there a good 15-20 seconds before the slow guards from mid will be able to follow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, lets say all 5 thieves go close. 2 guardians from mid move. One takes far, the other goes close. The ones on close will be able to survive of course until the third one arrives (remember, one is a bunker), and once the third one arrives, its a teamfight they win once more. The thieves lose a point, and fail to pick up anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > They pick up the kills on close and far, so now they have a 5v3 situation on the map and both side-nodes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh they wont get any kills. The situation will remain a 5v5 on paper, but a 2v5 in practice, because most of the thieves are useless. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Obviously it requires a degree of co-ordination that is not available to pugs, but it is in no way a foregone conclusion. It also kinda depends on the map, somewhere with lots of no-ports close to the node like skyhammer of colosseum would be tougher for thieves to snowball on. > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh it absolutely is a foregone conclusion. The fact that thieves cant kill guardians unless they *really* outnumber them (And even then only slowly) makes it impossible for them to win. > > > > > > > > > > Hmm ? losing 2v5 to 2 guardians maybe you should’ve spent those months of practice to try and finally win a daily on thief instead of guardian > > > > > > > > 3v5. 2v5 the thieves might win, but not fast enough to do so before reinforcements arrive and turn the fight around. And if you cant win a 3v5 against 5 thieves as guardians, maybe you should try learning guardian. > > > > > > Are u seriously gonna argue that. As Ragnar, a top 25 guard main, pointed out 5 thief’s on 1 guard is an insta kill. It doesn’t matter if it’s 2,3 or 4. You get 1 insta kill and u don’t have to 3v5, though I’ll admit in a team fight burn stacks could meme a thief and if the guards are good enough they could just rev them, but a good thief team would see 1 death or a Rez and all rotate while the guards would show up 10 secs too late. It would just take 1 fight on sides to snowball to start a massive snowball and on a map like coliseum where thief is insanely good and guard is only so-so then this would be a no brained for a team on comma to accomplish > > > > Ill take "what is a bunker" and "what is ressing" and "what is invulnerability" each for 500. You maybe down one guy, then he gets ressed immediately and youre back to square one. And thats assuming you even down the one guy. After all, backstab thieves burst is already pretty poor, and you only get the one. The others are going to have to play different builds. With worse and more telegraphed burst. The guardian can just use his defenses and remain completely fine. > > > > It would take 1 *successful* fight. Unfortunately for the thieves, they will not get a succesful fight. Here is whats going to happen. The guardians will send 3 mid, and 2 close. They will take both points. The thieves will obviously have no chance of ever taking mid. They lose the fight 5v3 100% of the time. So, lets say the thieves then go 5 close, to try and get that point. While they do win the 5v2 eventually, since the ones on close are a bunker and one at least reasonably tanky guardian ,they will do so much too slowly. The guardians at mid will dispatch 2. One goes far, and takes the now undefended thief point literally for free. The other goes close as reinforcement, turning the fight into a 3v5 that the guardians win again. The thieves lose one point for free, and gain nothing. Thieves only advantage is that they rotate faster. An advantage that is meaningless when no matter where you go on the map, you lose. > > > > Now if it was 5 thieves including repeating builds they ... still would lose obviously, but they'd have more of a chance. But non-repeating builds? Yeah no thats a loss 100% of the time. > > Ok so you think the 1 “support firebrand” will have precast signet of mercy on his 1 player that got insta downed ? It’s laughable- 5 fully stealthed thief’s will have 1 shot him/her out of stealth and guess what they will try to rez and not get it unless against bots and a support firebrand would be so squish that he will die and have no chance to get the rez, maybe you have a burn or 1 shot dh down someone but they will probably rally if they got that lucky. this miraclous 3v5 comp of mostly underperforming specs would insta die too. Oh I completely forgot that guardian had a res signet. Its not even neccessary. 5 fully stealthed thieves? What, are you going to assume that theyre just going to ignore that obvious smokefield, and not, yknow, place traps down to inhibit the thieves? Plus, were talking non-repeating builds. Good luck one-shotting when you only have 1 backstab build, and the remaining builds either have telegraphed and avoidable/blockable burst, or no burst at all. And why do you think the support firebrand would be on far, I'd have placed it mid. And no, the 3v5 comp of mostly good builds would completely destroy the 5 thieves of which 0 have builds that are even remotely useful for teamfighting. What are the thieves gonna do? Try and fail to burst down on target, while eating enough damage to down every single one of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now