Dantheman.3589 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > > > A team of 5 thieves would be a nightmare for a team of 5 guardians to face, IF the 5 thieves are co-ordinating on voice-comms. If it was just a pug group with no voice-comms then yeah, guards would win easily, but voice-comm level co-ordination is a game-changer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it wouldnt be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unless the 5 guards all sit together on 1 node, there's plenty of opportunity for thieves to out-rotate and zerg down 1 after the other. 4 thieves spiking out of stealth, stealing stability and spamming unblockable interrupts will very quickly end a guardian which is outnumbered. Once the snowball is started it'd be difficult to stop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah actually that wouldnt happen. Here is what the guardians do. 3 mid, 2 close, one of the ones going close being a bunker. Lets say DH bunker. The Guardians take mid and close, because thieves lose those fights, then hold them ad infinitum as the thieves are powerless to stop any of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simple example: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both teams split 1-3-1 at start. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would they guardian send any far? They just go 3-2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On each node, into 1v1 or 3v3, the guardian is favoured against the thief. So guardian wins right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually even if its a 3v5 mid, guardian wins. They take mid and close, and just sit on them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The 3 thieves on mid just leave, 2 go to far, 1 to close. They'll be able to get there a good 15-20 seconds before the slow guards from mid will be able to follow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, lets say all 5 thieves go close. 2 guardians from mid move. One takes far, the other goes close. The ones on close will be able to survive of course until the third one arrives (remember, one is a bunker), and once the third one arrives, its a teamfight they win once more. The thieves lose a point, and fail to pick up anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They pick up the kills on close and far, so now they have a 5v3 situation on the map and both side-nodes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh they wont get any kills. The situation will remain a 5v5 on paper, but a 2v5 in practice, because most of the thieves are useless. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Obviously it requires a degree of co-ordination that is not available to pugs, but it is in no way a foregone conclusion. It also kinda depends on the map, somewhere with lots of no-ports close to the node like skyhammer of colosseum would be tougher for thieves to snowball on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh it absolutely is a foregone conclusion. The fact that thieves cant kill guardians unless they *really* outnumber them (And even then only slowly) makes it impossible for them to win. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hmm ? losing 2v5 to 2 guardians maybe you should’ve spent those months of practice to try and finally win a daily on thief instead of guardian > > > > > > > > > > 3v5. 2v5 the thieves might win, but not fast enough to do so before reinforcements arrive and turn the fight around. And if you cant win a 3v5 against 5 thieves as guardians, maybe you should try learning guardian. > > > > > > > > Are u seriously gonna argue that. As Ragnar, a top 25 guard main, pointed out 5 thief’s on 1 guard is an insta kill. It doesn’t matter if it’s 2,3 or 4. You get 1 insta kill and u don’t have to 3v5, though I’ll admit in a team fight burn stacks could meme a thief and if the guards are good enough they could just rev them, but a good thief team would see 1 death or a Rez and all rotate while the guards would show up 10 secs too late. It would just take 1 fight on sides to snowball to start a massive snowball and on a map like coliseum where thief is insanely good and guard is only so-so then this would be a no brained for a team on comma to accomplish > > > > > > Ill take "what is a bunker" and "what is ressing" and "what is invulnerability" each for 500. You maybe down one guy, then he gets ressed immediately and youre back to square one. And thats assuming you even down the one guy. After all, backstab thieves burst is already pretty poor, and you only get the one. The others are going to have to play different builds. With worse and more telegraphed burst. The guardian can just use his defenses and remain completely fine. > > > > > > It would take 1 *successful* fight. Unfortunately for the thieves, they will not get a succesful fight. Here is whats going to happen. The guardians will send 3 mid, and 2 close. They will take both points. The thieves will obviously have no chance of ever taking mid. They lose the fight 5v3 100% of the time. So, lets say the thieves then go 5 close, to try and get that point. While they do win the 5v2 eventually, since the ones on close are a bunker and one at least reasonably tanky guardian ,they will do so much too slowly. The guardians at mid will dispatch 2. One goes far, and takes the now undefended thief point literally for free. The other goes close as reinforcement, turning the fight into a 3v5 that the guardians win again. The thieves lose one point for free, and gain nothing. Thieves only advantage is that they rotate faster. An advantage that is meaningless when no matter where you go on the map, you lose. > > > > > > Now if it was 5 thieves including repeating builds they ... still would lose obviously, but they'd have more of a chance. But non-repeating builds? Yeah no thats a loss 100% of the time. > > > > Ok so you think the 1 “support firebrand” will have precast signet of mercy on his 1 player that got insta downed ? It’s laughable- 5 fully stealthed thief’s will have 1 shot him/her out of stealth and guess what they will try to rez and not get it unless against bots and a support firebrand would be so squish that he will die and have no chance to get the rez, maybe you have a burn or 1 shot dh down someone but they will probably rally if they got that lucky. this miraclous 3v5 comp of mostly underperforming specs would insta die too. > > Oh I completely forgot that guardian had a res signet. Its not even neccessary. 5 fully stealthed thieves? What, are you going to assume that theyre just going to ignore that obvious smokefield, and not, yknow, place traps down to inhibit the thieves? Plus, were talking non-repeating builds. Good luck one-shotting when you only have 1 backstab build, and the remaining builds either have telegraphed and avoidable/blockable burst, or no burst at all. And why do you think the support firebrand would be on far, I'd have placed it mid. And no, the 3v5 comp of mostly good builds would completely destroy the 5 thieves of which 0 have builds that are even remotely useful for teamfighting. What are the thieves gonna do? Try and fail to burst down on target, while eating enough damage to down every single one of them? News flash. The only spec that can actually get to the others teams side at same time as them on almost every map is thief and that’s assuming regular movement speed + maybe swiftness. This thief team could get to the other side about a fast as most teams could get to mid. The dh could at best get to the other teams side only against regular teams, on kyhlo and with a target for teleports. They wouldn’t be able to get to the thief’s stealth area and wouldn’t know where they are on the map- maybe they are pushing far, which u said only has 2(that’s a bronze teir strat that only works against bots btw) or maybe they are mid being picky with a target. If the guard wants to rotate they wil just 1 shot him and if they just sit where they are with your unviable split than they are even more of sitting ducks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > > > > A team of 5 thieves would be a nightmare for a team of 5 guardians to face, IF the 5 thieves are co-ordinating on voice-comms. If it was just a pug group with no voice-comms then yeah, guards would win easily, but voice-comm level co-ordination is a game-changer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it wouldnt be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unless the 5 guards all sit together on 1 node, there's plenty of opportunity for thieves to out-rotate and zerg down 1 after the other. 4 thieves spiking out of stealth, stealing stability and spamming unblockable interrupts will very quickly end a guardian which is outnumbered. Once the snowball is started it'd be difficult to stop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah actually that wouldnt happen. Here is what the guardians do. 3 mid, 2 close, one of the ones going close being a bunker. Lets say DH bunker. The Guardians take mid and close, because thieves lose those fights, then hold them ad infinitum as the thieves are powerless to stop any of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simple example: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both teams split 1-3-1 at start. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would they guardian send any far? They just go 3-2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On each node, into 1v1 or 3v3, the guardian is favoured against the thief. So guardian wins right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually even if its a 3v5 mid, guardian wins. They take mid and close, and just sit on them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The 3 thieves on mid just leave, 2 go to far, 1 to close. They'll be able to get there a good 15-20 seconds before the slow guards from mid will be able to follow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, lets say all 5 thieves go close. 2 guardians from mid move. One takes far, the other goes close. The ones on close will be able to survive of course until the third one arrives (remember, one is a bunker), and once the third one arrives, its a teamfight they win once more. The thieves lose a point, and fail to pick up anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They pick up the kills on close and far, so now they have a 5v3 situation on the map and both side-nodes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh they wont get any kills. The situation will remain a 5v5 on paper, but a 2v5 in practice, because most of the thieves are useless. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Obviously it requires a degree of co-ordination that is not available to pugs, but it is in no way a foregone conclusion. It also kinda depends on the map, somewhere with lots of no-ports close to the node like skyhammer of colosseum would be tougher for thieves to snowball on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh it absolutely is a foregone conclusion. The fact that thieves cant kill guardians unless they *really* outnumber them (And even then only slowly) makes it impossible for them to win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hmm ? losing 2v5 to 2 guardians maybe you should’ve spent those months of practice to try and finally win a daily on thief instead of guardian > > > > > > > > > > > > 3v5. 2v5 the thieves might win, but not fast enough to do so before reinforcements arrive and turn the fight around. And if you cant win a 3v5 against 5 thieves as guardians, maybe you should try learning guardian. > > > > > > > > > > Are u seriously gonna argue that. As Ragnar, a top 25 guard main, pointed out 5 thief’s on 1 guard is an insta kill. It doesn’t matter if it’s 2,3 or 4. You get 1 insta kill and u don’t have to 3v5, though I’ll admit in a team fight burn stacks could meme a thief and if the guards are good enough they could just rev them, but a good thief team would see 1 death or a Rez and all rotate while the guards would show up 10 secs too late. It would just take 1 fight on sides to snowball to start a massive snowball and on a map like coliseum where thief is insanely good and guard is only so-so then this would be a no brained for a team on comma to accomplish > > > > > > > > Ill take "what is a bunker" and "what is ressing" and "what is invulnerability" each for 500. You maybe down one guy, then he gets ressed immediately and youre back to square one. And thats assuming you even down the one guy. After all, backstab thieves burst is already pretty poor, and you only get the one. The others are going to have to play different builds. With worse and more telegraphed burst. The guardian can just use his defenses and remain completely fine. > > > > > > > > It would take 1 *successful* fight. Unfortunately for the thieves, they will not get a succesful fight. Here is whats going to happen. The guardians will send 3 mid, and 2 close. They will take both points. The thieves will obviously have no chance of ever taking mid. They lose the fight 5v3 100% of the time. So, lets say the thieves then go 5 close, to try and get that point. While they do win the 5v2 eventually, since the ones on close are a bunker and one at least reasonably tanky guardian ,they will do so much too slowly. The guardians at mid will dispatch 2. One goes far, and takes the now undefended thief point literally for free. The other goes close as reinforcement, turning the fight into a 3v5 that the guardians win again. The thieves lose one point for free, and gain nothing. Thieves only advantage is that they rotate faster. An advantage that is meaningless when no matter where you go on the map, you lose. > > > > > > > > Now if it was 5 thieves including repeating builds they ... still would lose obviously, but they'd have more of a chance. But non-repeating builds? Yeah no thats a loss 100% of the time. > > > > > > Ok so you think the 1 “support firebrand” will have precast signet of mercy on his 1 player that got insta downed ? It’s laughable- 5 fully stealthed thief’s will have 1 shot him/her out of stealth and guess what they will try to rez and not get it unless against bots and a support firebrand would be so squish that he will die and have no chance to get the rez, maybe you have a burn or 1 shot dh down someone but they will probably rally if they got that lucky. this miraclous 3v5 comp of mostly underperforming specs would insta die too. > > > > Oh I completely forgot that guardian had a res signet. Its not even neccessary. 5 fully stealthed thieves? What, are you going to assume that theyre just going to ignore that obvious smokefield, and not, yknow, place traps down to inhibit the thieves? Plus, were talking non-repeating builds. Good luck one-shotting when you only have 1 backstab build, and the remaining builds either have telegraphed and avoidable/blockable burst, or no burst at all. And why do you think the support firebrand would be on far, I'd have placed it mid. And no, the 3v5 comp of mostly good builds would completely destroy the 5 thieves of which 0 have builds that are even remotely useful for teamfighting. What are the thieves gonna do? Try and fail to burst down on target, while eating enough damage to down every single one of them? > > News flash. The only spec that can actually get to the others teams side at same time as them on almost every map is thief and that’s assuming regular movement speed + maybe swiftness. This thief team could get to the other side about a fast as most teams could get to mid. The dh could at best get to the other teams side only against regular teams, on kyhlo and with a target for teleports. They wouldn’t be able to get to the thief’s stealth area and wouldn’t know where they are on the map- maybe they are pushing far, which u said only has 2(that’s a bronze teir strat that only works against bots btw) or maybe they are mid being picky with a target. If the guard wants to rotate they wil just 1 shot him and if they just sit where they are with your unviable split than they are even more of sitting ducks. Correct, theyre faster. As I said. "Thieves only advantage is that they rotate faster. An advantage that is meaningless when no matter where you go on the map, you lose". Yes, the reinforcements from mid arrive later, but thats fine, thieves cant kill fast enough, and by the time they do arrive, its game over for the thieves. And no, it works against thieves brilliantly, since it abuses thieves *complete* lack of teamfighting and killing potential. As I said, the guardians can just sit mid and close, and they win by default. If the thieves try to push close (literally their *only* option, so its 100% predictable), the guardians will get a free point. There is *no* situation in which the thieves can win. Because 5 thieves is an unviable comp that fails against *all* half-way functional comps (decap and +1 bots are only good as a 1 of in your team, not if you have 5), whereas 5 Guardians is a functional comp, albeit a weak one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheman.3589 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > > > > > A team of 5 thieves would be a nightmare for a team of 5 guardians to face, IF the 5 thieves are co-ordinating on voice-comms. If it was just a pug group with no voice-comms then yeah, guards would win easily, but voice-comm level co-ordination is a game-changer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it wouldnt be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unless the 5 guards all sit together on 1 node, there's plenty of opportunity for thieves to out-rotate and zerg down 1 after the other. 4 thieves spiking out of stealth, stealing stability and spamming unblockable interrupts will very quickly end a guardian which is outnumbered. Once the snowball is started it'd be difficult to stop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah actually that wouldnt happen. Here is what the guardians do. 3 mid, 2 close, one of the ones going close being a bunker. Lets say DH bunker. The Guardians take mid and close, because thieves lose those fights, then hold them ad infinitum as the thieves are powerless to stop any of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simple example: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both teams split 1-3-1 at start. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would they guardian send any far? They just go 3-2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On each node, into 1v1 or 3v3, the guardian is favoured against the thief. So guardian wins right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually even if its a 3v5 mid, guardian wins. They take mid and close, and just sit on them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The 3 thieves on mid just leave, 2 go to far, 1 to close. They'll be able to get there a good 15-20 seconds before the slow guards from mid will be able to follow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, lets say all 5 thieves go close. 2 guardians from mid move. One takes far, the other goes close. The ones on close will be able to survive of course until the third one arrives (remember, one is a bunker), and once the third one arrives, its a teamfight they win once more. The thieves lose a point, and fail to pick up anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They pick up the kills on close and far, so now they have a 5v3 situation on the map and both side-nodes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh they wont get any kills. The situation will remain a 5v5 on paper, but a 2v5 in practice, because most of the thieves are useless. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Obviously it requires a degree of co-ordination that is not available to pugs, but it is in no way a foregone conclusion. It also kinda depends on the map, somewhere with lots of no-ports close to the node like skyhammer of colosseum would be tougher for thieves to snowball on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh it absolutely is a foregone conclusion. The fact that thieves cant kill guardians unless they *really* outnumber them (And even then only slowly) makes it impossible for them to win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hmm ? losing 2v5 to 2 guardians maybe you should’ve spent those months of practice to try and finally win a daily on thief instead of guardian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3v5. 2v5 the thieves might win, but not fast enough to do so before reinforcements arrive and turn the fight around. And if you cant win a 3v5 against 5 thieves as guardians, maybe you should try learning guardian. > > > > > > > > > > > > Are u seriously gonna argue that. As Ragnar, a top 25 guard main, pointed out 5 thief’s on 1 guard is an insta kill. It doesn’t matter if it’s 2,3 or 4. You get 1 insta kill and u don’t have to 3v5, though I’ll admit in a team fight burn stacks could meme a thief and if the guards are good enough they could just rev them, but a good thief team would see 1 death or a Rez and all rotate while the guards would show up 10 secs too late. It would just take 1 fight on sides to snowball to start a massive snowball and on a map like coliseum where thief is insanely good and guard is only so-so then this would be a no brained for a team on comma to accomplish > > > > > > > > > > Ill take "what is a bunker" and "what is ressing" and "what is invulnerability" each for 500. You maybe down one guy, then he gets ressed immediately and youre back to square one. And thats assuming you even down the one guy. After all, backstab thieves burst is already pretty poor, and you only get the one. The others are going to have to play different builds. With worse and more telegraphed burst. The guardian can just use his defenses and remain completely fine. > > > > > > > > > > It would take 1 *successful* fight. Unfortunately for the thieves, they will not get a succesful fight. Here is whats going to happen. The guardians will send 3 mid, and 2 close. They will take both points. The thieves will obviously have no chance of ever taking mid. They lose the fight 5v3 100% of the time. So, lets say the thieves then go 5 close, to try and get that point. While they do win the 5v2 eventually, since the ones on close are a bunker and one at least reasonably tanky guardian ,they will do so much too slowly. The guardians at mid will dispatch 2. One goes far, and takes the now undefended thief point literally for free. The other goes close as reinforcement, turning the fight into a 3v5 that the guardians win again. The thieves lose one point for free, and gain nothing. Thieves only advantage is that they rotate faster. An advantage that is meaningless when no matter where you go on the map, you lose. > > > > > > > > > > Now if it was 5 thieves including repeating builds they ... still would lose obviously, but they'd have more of a chance. But non-repeating builds? Yeah no thats a loss 100% of the time. > > > > > > > > Ok so you think the 1 “support firebrand” will have precast signet of mercy on his 1 player that got insta downed ? It’s laughable- 5 fully stealthed thief’s will have 1 shot him/her out of stealth and guess what they will try to rez and not get it unless against bots and a support firebrand would be so squish that he will die and have no chance to get the rez, maybe you have a burn or 1 shot dh down someone but they will probably rally if they got that lucky. this miraclous 3v5 comp of mostly underperforming specs would insta die too. > > > > > > Oh I completely forgot that guardian had a res signet. Its not even neccessary. 5 fully stealthed thieves? What, are you going to assume that theyre just going to ignore that obvious smokefield, and not, yknow, place traps down to inhibit the thieves? Plus, were talking non-repeating builds. Good luck one-shotting when you only have 1 backstab build, and the remaining builds either have telegraphed and avoidable/blockable burst, or no burst at all. And why do you think the support firebrand would be on far, I'd have placed it mid. And no, the 3v5 comp of mostly good builds would completely destroy the 5 thieves of which 0 have builds that are even remotely useful for teamfighting. What are the thieves gonna do? Try and fail to burst down on target, while eating enough damage to down every single one of them? > > > > News flash. The only spec that can actually get to the others teams side at same time as them on almost every map is thief and that’s assuming regular movement speed + maybe swiftness. This thief team could get to the other side about a fast as most teams could get to mid. The dh could at best get to the other teams side only against regular teams, on kyhlo and with a target for teleports. They wouldn’t be able to get to the thief’s stealth area and wouldn’t know where they are on the map- maybe they are pushing far, which u said only has 2(that’s a bronze teir strat that only works against bots btw) or maybe they are mid being picky with a target. If the guard wants to rotate they wil just 1 shot him and if they just sit where they are with your unviable split than they are even more of sitting ducks. > > Correct, theyre faster. As I said. "Thieves only advantage is that they rotate faster. An advantage that is meaningless when no matter where you go on the map, you lose". Yes, the reinforcements from mid arrive later, but thats fine, thieves cant kill fast enough, and by the time they do arrive, its game over for the thieves. And no, it works against thieves brilliantly, since it abuses thieves *complete* lack of teamfighting and killing potential. As I said, the guardians can just sit mid and close, and they win by default. If the thieves try to push close (literally their *only* option, so its 100% predictable), the guardians will get a free point. There is *no* situation in which the thieves can win. Because 5 thieves is an unviable comp that fails against *all* half-way functional comps (decap and +1 bots are only good as a 1 of in your team, not if you have 5), whereas 5 Guardians is a functional comp, albeit a weak one. Good job making an argument entirely around semantics about how much better guard is than thief. Too bad I know you’ve never tried a 5 thief comp before as you said “no ones won an at as 5 thief before” or even attempted it. 2 days ago when my at asked to do 5 thief for the at, and won against somewhat competent teams, I mentioned a person or 2 said thief couldn’t win and they all laughed and said that thief is amazing in conquest so ofc thief could win. If you have never tested it than you know zilch and in this case you are very wrong. There’s a reason high rated players have pointed this out to you because they already have played the game and well, which you made clear that you have never played and don’t know anything about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > > > > > > A team of 5 thieves would be a nightmare for a team of 5 guardians to face, IF the 5 thieves are co-ordinating on voice-comms. If it was just a pug group with no voice-comms then yeah, guards would win easily, but voice-comm level co-ordination is a game-changer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it wouldnt be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unless the 5 guards all sit together on 1 node, there's plenty of opportunity for thieves to out-rotate and zerg down 1 after the other. 4 thieves spiking out of stealth, stealing stability and spamming unblockable interrupts will very quickly end a guardian which is outnumbered. Once the snowball is started it'd be difficult to stop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah actually that wouldnt happen. Here is what the guardians do. 3 mid, 2 close, one of the ones going close being a bunker. Lets say DH bunker. The Guardians take mid and close, because thieves lose those fights, then hold them ad infinitum as the thieves are powerless to stop any of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simple example: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both teams split 1-3-1 at start. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would they guardian send any far? They just go 3-2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On each node, into 1v1 or 3v3, the guardian is favoured against the thief. So guardian wins right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually even if its a 3v5 mid, guardian wins. They take mid and close, and just sit on them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The 3 thieves on mid just leave, 2 go to far, 1 to close. They'll be able to get there a good 15-20 seconds before the slow guards from mid will be able to follow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, lets say all 5 thieves go close. 2 guardians from mid move. One takes far, the other goes close. The ones on close will be able to survive of course until the third one arrives (remember, one is a bunker), and once the third one arrives, its a teamfight they win once more. The thieves lose a point, and fail to pick up anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They pick up the kills on close and far, so now they have a 5v3 situation on the map and both side-nodes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh they wont get any kills. The situation will remain a 5v5 on paper, but a 2v5 in practice, because most of the thieves are useless. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Obviously it requires a degree of co-ordination that is not available to pugs, but it is in no way a foregone conclusion. It also kinda depends on the map, somewhere with lots of no-ports close to the node like skyhammer of colosseum would be tougher for thieves to snowball on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh it absolutely is a foregone conclusion. The fact that thieves cant kill guardians unless they *really* outnumber them (And even then only slowly) makes it impossible for them to win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hmm ? losing 2v5 to 2 guardians maybe you should’ve spent those months of practice to try and finally win a daily on thief instead of guardian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3v5. 2v5 the thieves might win, but not fast enough to do so before reinforcements arrive and turn the fight around. And if you cant win a 3v5 against 5 thieves as guardians, maybe you should try learning guardian. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are u seriously gonna argue that. As Ragnar, a top 25 guard main, pointed out 5 thief’s on 1 guard is an insta kill. It doesn’t matter if it’s 2,3 or 4. You get 1 insta kill and u don’t have to 3v5, though I’ll admit in a team fight burn stacks could meme a thief and if the guards are good enough they could just rev them, but a good thief team would see 1 death or a Rez and all rotate while the guards would show up 10 secs too late. It would just take 1 fight on sides to snowball to start a massive snowball and on a map like coliseum where thief is insanely good and guard is only so-so then this would be a no brained for a team on comma to accomplish > > > > > > > > > > > > Ill take "what is a bunker" and "what is ressing" and "what is invulnerability" each for 500. You maybe down one guy, then he gets ressed immediately and youre back to square one. And thats assuming you even down the one guy. After all, backstab thieves burst is already pretty poor, and you only get the one. The others are going to have to play different builds. With worse and more telegraphed burst. The guardian can just use his defenses and remain completely fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > It would take 1 *successful* fight. Unfortunately for the thieves, they will not get a succesful fight. Here is whats going to happen. The guardians will send 3 mid, and 2 close. They will take both points. The thieves will obviously have no chance of ever taking mid. They lose the fight 5v3 100% of the time. So, lets say the thieves then go 5 close, to try and get that point. While they do win the 5v2 eventually, since the ones on close are a bunker and one at least reasonably tanky guardian ,they will do so much too slowly. The guardians at mid will dispatch 2. One goes far, and takes the now undefended thief point literally for free. The other goes close as reinforcement, turning the fight into a 3v5 that the guardians win again. The thieves lose one point for free, and gain nothing. Thieves only advantage is that they rotate faster. An advantage that is meaningless when no matter where you go on the map, you lose. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now if it was 5 thieves including repeating builds they ... still would lose obviously, but they'd have more of a chance. But non-repeating builds? Yeah no thats a loss 100% of the time. > > > > > > > > > > Ok so you think the 1 “support firebrand” will have precast signet of mercy on his 1 player that got insta downed ? It’s laughable- 5 fully stealthed thief’s will have 1 shot him/her out of stealth and guess what they will try to rez and not get it unless against bots and a support firebrand would be so squish that he will die and have no chance to get the rez, maybe you have a burn or 1 shot dh down someone but they will probably rally if they got that lucky. this miraclous 3v5 comp of mostly underperforming specs would insta die too. > > > > > > > > Oh I completely forgot that guardian had a res signet. Its not even neccessary. 5 fully stealthed thieves? What, are you going to assume that theyre just going to ignore that obvious smokefield, and not, yknow, place traps down to inhibit the thieves? Plus, were talking non-repeating builds. Good luck one-shotting when you only have 1 backstab build, and the remaining builds either have telegraphed and avoidable/blockable burst, or no burst at all. And why do you think the support firebrand would be on far, I'd have placed it mid. And no, the 3v5 comp of mostly good builds would completely destroy the 5 thieves of which 0 have builds that are even remotely useful for teamfighting. What are the thieves gonna do? Try and fail to burst down on target, while eating enough damage to down every single one of them? > > > > > > News flash. The only spec that can actually get to the others teams side at same time as them on almost every map is thief and that’s assuming regular movement speed + maybe swiftness. This thief team could get to the other side about a fast as most teams could get to mid. The dh could at best get to the other teams side only against regular teams, on kyhlo and with a target for teleports. They wouldn’t be able to get to the thief’s stealth area and wouldn’t know where they are on the map- maybe they are pushing far, which u said only has 2(that’s a bronze teir strat that only works against bots btw) or maybe they are mid being picky with a target. If the guard wants to rotate they wil just 1 shot him and if they just sit where they are with your unviable split than they are even more of sitting ducks. > > > > Correct, theyre faster. As I said. "Thieves only advantage is that they rotate faster. An advantage that is meaningless when no matter where you go on the map, you lose". Yes, the reinforcements from mid arrive later, but thats fine, thieves cant kill fast enough, and by the time they do arrive, its game over for the thieves. And no, it works against thieves brilliantly, since it abuses thieves *complete* lack of teamfighting and killing potential. As I said, the guardians can just sit mid and close, and they win by default. If the thieves try to push close (literally their *only* option, so its 100% predictable), the guardians will get a free point. There is *no* situation in which the thieves can win. Because 5 thieves is an unviable comp that fails against *all* half-way functional comps (decap and +1 bots are only good as a 1 of in your team, not if you have 5), whereas 5 Guardians is a functional comp, albeit a weak one. > > Good job making an argument entirely around semantics about how much better guard is than thief. Too bad I know you’ve never tried a 5 thief comp before as you said “no ones won an at as 5 thief before” or even attempted it. 2 days ago when my at asked to do 5 thief for the at, and won against somewhat competent teams, I mentioned a person or 2 said thief couldn’t win and they all laughed and said that thief is amazing in conquest so ofc thief could win. > And you havent tried playing 5 *distinct* thief builds against 5 *distinct* guardian builds with players of similar skill level either. In fact, lemme go ahead and guess that your 5 thief team had a lot of overlap, and you only won against poor teams. Correct? Yes? Well thats not surprising. Turns out this is something that you can only do by analysing each teams merits, and average power. And well, you have not made a *single* argument for why thief would totally win other than "theyre faster and they can totally oneshot a guardian and win off of that". Ignoring that the second part isnt even true. > If you have never tested it than you know zilch and in this case you are very wrong. There’s a reason high rated players have pointed this out to you because they already have played the game and well, which you made clear that you have never played and don’t know anything about. In case you havent noticed (not terribly surprising given how utterly **self-absorbed** you are), *youre literally the only person arguing that 5 thieves would win*. Multiple people have already said that thief would lose, and several have even called you out on trying to argue that thief totally would win. So Im sorry, but those made up "high rated players" dont exist. In fact, if youre willing to lie about that, I wouldn't be surprised if you didnt even try a 5 thief AT at all, and lied about that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheman.3589 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > A team of 5 thieves would be a nightmare for a team of 5 guardians to face, IF the 5 thieves are co-ordinating on voice-comms. If it was just a pug group with no voice-comms then yeah, guards would win easily, but voice-comm level co-ordination is a game-changer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it wouldnt be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unless the 5 guards all sit together on 1 node, there's plenty of opportunity for thieves to out-rotate and zerg down 1 after the other. 4 thieves spiking out of stealth, stealing stability and spamming unblockable interrupts will very quickly end a guardian which is outnumbered. Once the snowball is started it'd be difficult to stop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah actually that wouldnt happen. Here is what the guardians do. 3 mid, 2 close, one of the ones going close being a bunker. Lets say DH bunker. The Guardians take mid and close, because thieves lose those fights, then hold them ad infinitum as the thieves are powerless to stop any of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simple example: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both teams split 1-3-1 at start. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would they guardian send any far? They just go 3-2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On each node, into 1v1 or 3v3, the guardian is favoured against the thief. So guardian wins right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually even if its a 3v5 mid, guardian wins. They take mid and close, and just sit on them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The 3 thieves on mid just leave, 2 go to far, 1 to close. They'll be able to get there a good 15-20 seconds before the slow guards from mid will be able to follow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, lets say all 5 thieves go close. 2 guardians from mid move. One takes far, the other goes close. The ones on close will be able to survive of course until the third one arrives (remember, one is a bunker), and once the third one arrives, its a teamfight they win once more. The thieves lose a point, and fail to pick up anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They pick up the kills on close and far, so now they have a 5v3 situation on the map and both side-nodes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh they wont get any kills. The situation will remain a 5v5 on paper, but a 2v5 in practice, because most of the thieves are useless. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Obviously it requires a degree of co-ordination that is not available to pugs, but it is in no way a foregone conclusion. It also kinda depends on the map, somewhere with lots of no-ports close to the node like skyhammer of colosseum would be tougher for thieves to snowball on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh it absolutely is a foregone conclusion. The fact that thieves cant kill guardians unless they *really* outnumber them (And even then only slowly) makes it impossible for them to win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hmm ? losing 2v5 to 2 guardians maybe you should’ve spent those months of practice to try and finally win a daily on thief instead of guardian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3v5. 2v5 the thieves might win, but not fast enough to do so before reinforcements arrive and turn the fight around. And if you cant win a 3v5 against 5 thieves as guardians, maybe you should try learning guardian. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are u seriously gonna argue that. As Ragnar, a top 25 guard main, pointed out 5 thief’s on 1 guard is an insta kill. It doesn’t matter if it’s 2,3 or 4. You get 1 insta kill and u don’t have to 3v5, though I’ll admit in a team fight burn stacks could meme a thief and if the guards are good enough they could just rev them, but a good thief team would see 1 death or a Rez and all rotate while the guards would show up 10 secs too late. It would just take 1 fight on sides to snowball to start a massive snowball and on a map like coliseum where thief is insanely good and guard is only so-so then this would be a no brained for a team on comma to accomplish > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ill take "what is a bunker" and "what is ressing" and "what is invulnerability" each for 500. You maybe down one guy, then he gets ressed immediately and youre back to square one. And thats assuming you even down the one guy. After all, backstab thieves burst is already pretty poor, and you only get the one. The others are going to have to play different builds. With worse and more telegraphed burst. The guardian can just use his defenses and remain completely fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would take 1 *successful* fight. Unfortunately for the thieves, they will not get a succesful fight. Here is whats going to happen. The guardians will send 3 mid, and 2 close. They will take both points. The thieves will obviously have no chance of ever taking mid. They lose the fight 5v3 100% of the time. So, lets say the thieves then go 5 close, to try and get that point. While they do win the 5v2 eventually, since the ones on close are a bunker and one at least reasonably tanky guardian ,they will do so much too slowly. The guardians at mid will dispatch 2. One goes far, and takes the now undefended thief point literally for free. The other goes close as reinforcement, turning the fight into a 3v5 that the guardians win again. The thieves lose one point for free, and gain nothing. Thieves only advantage is that they rotate faster. An advantage that is meaningless when no matter where you go on the map, you lose. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now if it was 5 thieves including repeating builds they ... still would lose obviously, but they'd have more of a chance. But non-repeating builds? Yeah no thats a loss 100% of the time. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok so you think the 1 “support firebrand” will have precast signet of mercy on his 1 player that got insta downed ? It’s laughable- 5 fully stealthed thief’s will have 1 shot him/her out of stealth and guess what they will try to rez and not get it unless against bots and a support firebrand would be so squish that he will die and have no chance to get the rez, maybe you have a burn or 1 shot dh down someone but they will probably rally if they got that lucky. this miraclous 3v5 comp of mostly underperforming specs would insta die too. > > > > > > > > > > Oh I completely forgot that guardian had a res signet. Its not even neccessary. 5 fully stealthed thieves? What, are you going to assume that theyre just going to ignore that obvious smokefield, and not, yknow, place traps down to inhibit the thieves? Plus, were talking non-repeating builds. Good luck one-shotting when you only have 1 backstab build, and the remaining builds either have telegraphed and avoidable/blockable burst, or no burst at all. And why do you think the support firebrand would be on far, I'd have placed it mid. And no, the 3v5 comp of mostly good builds would completely destroy the 5 thieves of which 0 have builds that are even remotely useful for teamfighting. What are the thieves gonna do? Try and fail to burst down on target, while eating enough damage to down every single one of them? > > > > > > > > News flash. The only spec that can actually get to the others teams side at same time as them on almost every map is thief and that’s assuming regular movement speed + maybe swiftness. This thief team could get to the other side about a fast as most teams could get to mid. The dh could at best get to the other teams side only against regular teams, on kyhlo and with a target for teleports. They wouldn’t be able to get to the thief’s stealth area and wouldn’t know where they are on the map- maybe they are pushing far, which u said only has 2(that’s a bronze teir strat that only works against bots btw) or maybe they are mid being picky with a target. If the guard wants to rotate they wil just 1 shot him and if they just sit where they are with your unviable split than they are even more of sitting ducks. > > > > > > Correct, theyre faster. As I said. "Thieves only advantage is that they rotate faster. An advantage that is meaningless when no matter where you go on the map, you lose". Yes, the reinforcements from mid arrive later, but thats fine, thieves cant kill fast enough, and by the time they do arrive, its game over for the thieves. And no, it works against thieves brilliantly, since it abuses thieves *complete* lack of teamfighting and killing potential. As I said, the guardians can just sit mid and close, and they win by default. If the thieves try to push close (literally their *only* option, so its 100% predictable), the guardians will get a free point. There is *no* situation in which the thieves can win. Because 5 thieves is an unviable comp that fails against *all* half-way functional comps (decap and +1 bots are only good as a 1 of in your team, not if you have 5), whereas 5 Guardians is a functional comp, albeit a weak one. > > > > Good job making an argument entirely around semantics about how much better guard is than thief. Too bad I know you’ve never tried a 5 thief comp before as you said “no ones won an at as 5 thief before” or even attempted it. 2 days ago when my at asked to do 5 thief for the at, and won against somewhat competent teams, I mentioned a person or 2 said thief couldn’t win and they all laughed and said that thief is amazing in conquest so ofc thief could win. > > > > And you havent tried playing 5 *distinct* thief builds against 5 *distinct* guardian builds with players of similar skill level either. In fact, lemme go ahead and guess that your 5 thief team had a lot of overlap, and you only won against poor teams. Correct? Yes? Well thats not surprising. Turns out this is something that you can only do by analysing each teams merits, and average power. And well, you have not made a *single* argument for why thief would totally win other than "theyre faster and they can totally oneshot a guardian and win off of that". Ignoring that the second part isnt even true. > > > If you have never tested it than you know zilch and in this case you are very wrong. There’s a reason high rated players have pointed this out to you because they already have played the game and well, which you made clear that you have never played and don’t know anything about. > > In case you havent noticed (not terribly surprising given how utterly **self-absorbed** you are), *youre literally the only person arguing that 5 thieves would win*. Multiple people have already said that thief would lose, and several have even called you out on trying to argue that thief totally would win. So Im sorry, but those made up "high rated players" dont exist. In fact, if youre willing to lie about that, I wouldn't be surprised if you didnt even try a 5 thief AT at all, and lied about that too. Here he goes again. I already said against decent teams ie. plat+ lfg groups and one plat team had a god of pvp + best of best title. Guess what 5 guard is most likely worse than their meta comp so why wouldn’t it be able to beat 5 guard but than again that’s not your argument your argument you are making baseless and incorrect claims about how 5 thief cannot win an at and no ones even tried to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > A team of 5 thieves would be a nightmare for a team of 5 guardians to face, IF the 5 thieves are co-ordinating on voice-comms. If it was just a pug group with no voice-comms then yeah, guards would win easily, but voice-comm level co-ordination is a game-changer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it wouldnt be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unless the 5 guards all sit together on 1 node, there's plenty of opportunity for thieves to out-rotate and zerg down 1 after the other. 4 thieves spiking out of stealth, stealing stability and spamming unblockable interrupts will very quickly end a guardian which is outnumbered. Once the snowball is started it'd be difficult to stop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah actually that wouldnt happen. Here is what the guardians do. 3 mid, 2 close, one of the ones going close being a bunker. Lets say DH bunker. The Guardians take mid and close, because thieves lose those fights, then hold them ad infinitum as the thieves are powerless to stop any of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simple example: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both teams split 1-3-1 at start. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would they guardian send any far? They just go 3-2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On each node, into 1v1 or 3v3, the guardian is favoured against the thief. So guardian wins right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually even if its a 3v5 mid, guardian wins. They take mid and close, and just sit on them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The 3 thieves on mid just leave, 2 go to far, 1 to close. They'll be able to get there a good 15-20 seconds before the slow guards from mid will be able to follow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, lets say all 5 thieves go close. 2 guardians from mid move. One takes far, the other goes close. The ones on close will be able to survive of course until the third one arrives (remember, one is a bunker), and once the third one arrives, its a teamfight they win once more. The thieves lose a point, and fail to pick up anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They pick up the kills on close and far, so now they have a 5v3 situation on the map and both side-nodes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh they wont get any kills. The situation will remain a 5v5 on paper, but a 2v5 in practice, because most of the thieves are useless. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Obviously it requires a degree of co-ordination that is not available to pugs, but it is in no way a foregone conclusion. It also kinda depends on the map, somewhere with lots of no-ports close to the node like skyhammer of colosseum would be tougher for thieves to snowball on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh it absolutely is a foregone conclusion. The fact that thieves cant kill guardians unless they *really* outnumber them (And even then only slowly) makes it impossible for them to win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hmm ? losing 2v5 to 2 guardians maybe you should’ve spent those months of practice to try and finally win a daily on thief instead of guardian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3v5. 2v5 the thieves might win, but not fast enough to do so before reinforcements arrive and turn the fight around. And if you cant win a 3v5 against 5 thieves as guardians, maybe you should try learning guardian. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are u seriously gonna argue that. As Ragnar, a top 25 guard main, pointed out 5 thief’s on 1 guard is an insta kill. It doesn’t matter if it’s 2,3 or 4. You get 1 insta kill and u don’t have to 3v5, though I’ll admit in a team fight burn stacks could meme a thief and if the guards are good enough they could just rev them, but a good thief team would see 1 death or a Rez and all rotate while the guards would show up 10 secs too late. It would just take 1 fight on sides to snowball to start a massive snowball and on a map like coliseum where thief is insanely good and guard is only so-so then this would be a no brained for a team on comma to accomplish > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ill take "what is a bunker" and "what is ressing" and "what is invulnerability" each for 500. You maybe down one guy, then he gets ressed immediately and youre back to square one. And thats assuming you even down the one guy. After all, backstab thieves burst is already pretty poor, and you only get the one. The others are going to have to play different builds. With worse and more telegraphed burst. The guardian can just use his defenses and remain completely fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would take 1 *successful* fight. Unfortunately for the thieves, they will not get a succesful fight. Here is whats going to happen. The guardians will send 3 mid, and 2 close. They will take both points. The thieves will obviously have no chance of ever taking mid. They lose the fight 5v3 100% of the time. So, lets say the thieves then go 5 close, to try and get that point. While they do win the 5v2 eventually, since the ones on close are a bunker and one at least reasonably tanky guardian ,they will do so much too slowly. The guardians at mid will dispatch 2. One goes far, and takes the now undefended thief point literally for free. The other goes close as reinforcement, turning the fight into a 3v5 that the guardians win again. The thieves lose one point for free, and gain nothing. Thieves only advantage is that they rotate faster. An advantage that is meaningless when no matter where you go on the map, you lose. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now if it was 5 thieves including repeating builds they ... still would lose obviously, but they'd have more of a chance. But non-repeating builds? Yeah no thats a loss 100% of the time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok so you think the 1 “support firebrand” will have precast signet of mercy on his 1 player that got insta downed ? It’s laughable- 5 fully stealthed thief’s will have 1 shot him/her out of stealth and guess what they will try to rez and not get it unless against bots and a support firebrand would be so squish that he will die and have no chance to get the rez, maybe you have a burn or 1 shot dh down someone but they will probably rally if they got that lucky. this miraclous 3v5 comp of mostly underperforming specs would insta die too. > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh I completely forgot that guardian had a res signet. Its not even neccessary. 5 fully stealthed thieves? What, are you going to assume that theyre just going to ignore that obvious smokefield, and not, yknow, place traps down to inhibit the thieves? Plus, were talking non-repeating builds. Good luck one-shotting when you only have 1 backstab build, and the remaining builds either have telegraphed and avoidable/blockable burst, or no burst at all. And why do you think the support firebrand would be on far, I'd have placed it mid. And no, the 3v5 comp of mostly good builds would completely destroy the 5 thieves of which 0 have builds that are even remotely useful for teamfighting. What are the thieves gonna do? Try and fail to burst down on target, while eating enough damage to down every single one of them? > > > > > > > > > > News flash. The only spec that can actually get to the others teams side at same time as them on almost every map is thief and that’s assuming regular movement speed + maybe swiftness. This thief team could get to the other side about a fast as most teams could get to mid. The dh could at best get to the other teams side only against regular teams, on kyhlo and with a target for teleports. They wouldn’t be able to get to the thief’s stealth area and wouldn’t know where they are on the map- maybe they are pushing far, which u said only has 2(that’s a bronze teir strat that only works against bots btw) or maybe they are mid being picky with a target. If the guard wants to rotate they wil just 1 shot him and if they just sit where they are with your unviable split than they are even more of sitting ducks. > > > > > > > > Correct, theyre faster. As I said. "Thieves only advantage is that they rotate faster. An advantage that is meaningless when no matter where you go on the map, you lose". Yes, the reinforcements from mid arrive later, but thats fine, thieves cant kill fast enough, and by the time they do arrive, its game over for the thieves. And no, it works against thieves brilliantly, since it abuses thieves *complete* lack of teamfighting and killing potential. As I said, the guardians can just sit mid and close, and they win by default. If the thieves try to push close (literally their *only* option, so its 100% predictable), the guardians will get a free point. There is *no* situation in which the thieves can win. Because 5 thieves is an unviable comp that fails against *all* half-way functional comps (decap and +1 bots are only good as a 1 of in your team, not if you have 5), whereas 5 Guardians is a functional comp, albeit a weak one. > > > > > > Good job making an argument entirely around semantics about how much better guard is than thief. Too bad I know you’ve never tried a 5 thief comp before as you said “no ones won an at as 5 thief before” or even attempted it. 2 days ago when my at asked to do 5 thief for the at, and won against somewhat competent teams, I mentioned a person or 2 said thief couldn’t win and they all laughed and said that thief is amazing in conquest so ofc thief could win. > > > > > > > And you havent tried playing 5 *distinct* thief builds against 5 *distinct* guardian builds with players of similar skill level either. In fact, lemme go ahead and guess that your 5 thief team had a lot of overlap, and you only won against poor teams. Correct? Yes? Well thats not surprising. Turns out this is something that you can only do by analysing each teams merits, and average power. And well, you have not made a *single* argument for why thief would totally win other than "theyre faster and they can totally oneshot a guardian and win off of that". Ignoring that the second part isnt even true. > > > > > If you have never tested it than you know zilch and in this case you are very wrong. There’s a reason high rated players have pointed this out to you because they already have played the game and well, which you made clear that you have never played and don’t know anything about. > > > > In case you havent noticed (not terribly surprising given how utterly **self-absorbed** you are), *youre literally the only person arguing that 5 thieves would win*. Multiple people have already said that thief would lose, and several have even called you out on trying to argue that thief totally would win. So Im sorry, but those made up "high rated players" dont exist. In fact, if youre willing to lie about that, I wouldn't be surprised if you didnt even try a 5 thief AT at all, and lied about that too. > > Here he goes again. I already said against decent teams ie. plat+ lfg groups and one plat team had a god of pvp + best of best title. Guess what 5 guard is most likely worse than their meta comp so why wouldn’t it be able to beat 5 guard but than again that’s not your argument your argument you are making baseless and incorrect claims about how 5 thief cannot win an at and no ones even tried to. Because against an evenly skilled team, 5 thieves would lose embarassingly 100% of the time? Its a *lot* worse than a meta team. And I said that no one tried bringing 5 thieves to an AT. That was true. Now youre claiming you totally brought 5 thieves to an AT, but as I said. If youre willing to lie about other high rated players *totally* agreeing with you, why wouldnt you be willing to lie about that too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheman.3589 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A team of 5 thieves would be a nightmare for a team of 5 guardians to face, IF the 5 thieves are co-ordinating on voice-comms. If it was just a pug group with no voice-comms then yeah, guards would win easily, but voice-comm level co-ordination is a game-changer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it wouldnt be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unless the 5 guards all sit together on 1 node, there's plenty of opportunity for thieves to out-rotate and zerg down 1 after the other. 4 thieves spiking out of stealth, stealing stability and spamming unblockable interrupts will very quickly end a guardian which is outnumbered. Once the snowball is started it'd be difficult to stop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah actually that wouldnt happen. Here is what the guardians do. 3 mid, 2 close, one of the ones going close being a bunker. Lets say DH bunker. The Guardians take mid and close, because thieves lose those fights, then hold them ad infinitum as the thieves are powerless to stop any of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simple example: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both teams split 1-3-1 at start. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would they guardian send any far? They just go 3-2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On each node, into 1v1 or 3v3, the guardian is favoured against the thief. So guardian wins right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually even if its a 3v5 mid, guardian wins. They take mid and close, and just sit on them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The 3 thieves on mid just leave, 2 go to far, 1 to close. They'll be able to get there a good 15-20 seconds before the slow guards from mid will be able to follow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, lets say all 5 thieves go close. 2 guardians from mid move. One takes far, the other goes close. The ones on close will be able to survive of course until the third one arrives (remember, one is a bunker), and once the third one arrives, its a teamfight they win once more. The thieves lose a point, and fail to pick up anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They pick up the kills on close and far, so now they have a 5v3 situation on the map and both side-nodes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh they wont get any kills. The situation will remain a 5v5 on paper, but a 2v5 in practice, because most of the thieves are useless. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Obviously it requires a degree of co-ordination that is not available to pugs, but it is in no way a foregone conclusion. It also kinda depends on the map, somewhere with lots of no-ports close to the node like skyhammer of colosseum would be tougher for thieves to snowball on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh it absolutely is a foregone conclusion. The fact that thieves cant kill guardians unless they *really* outnumber them (And even then only slowly) makes it impossible for them to win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hmm ? losing 2v5 to 2 guardians maybe you should’ve spent those months of practice to try and finally win a daily on thief instead of guardian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3v5. 2v5 the thieves might win, but not fast enough to do so before reinforcements arrive and turn the fight around. And if you cant win a 3v5 against 5 thieves as guardians, maybe you should try learning guardian. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are u seriously gonna argue that. As Ragnar, a top 25 guard main, pointed out 5 thief’s on 1 guard is an insta kill. It doesn’t matter if it’s 2,3 or 4. You get 1 insta kill and u don’t have to 3v5, though I’ll admit in a team fight burn stacks could meme a thief and if the guards are good enough they could just rev them, but a good thief team would see 1 death or a Rez and all rotate while the guards would show up 10 secs too late. It would just take 1 fight on sides to snowball to start a massive snowball and on a map like coliseum where thief is insanely good and guard is only so-so then this would be a no brained for a team on comma to accomplish > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ill take "what is a bunker" and "what is ressing" and "what is invulnerability" each for 500. You maybe down one guy, then he gets ressed immediately and youre back to square one. And thats assuming you even down the one guy. After all, backstab thieves burst is already pretty poor, and you only get the one. The others are going to have to play different builds. With worse and more telegraphed burst. The guardian can just use his defenses and remain completely fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would take 1 *successful* fight. Unfortunately for the thieves, they will not get a succesful fight. Here is whats going to happen. The guardians will send 3 mid, and 2 close. They will take both points. The thieves will obviously have no chance of ever taking mid. They lose the fight 5v3 100% of the time. So, lets say the thieves then go 5 close, to try and get that point. While they do win the 5v2 eventually, since the ones on close are a bunker and one at least reasonably tanky guardian ,they will do so much too slowly. The guardians at mid will dispatch 2. One goes far, and takes the now undefended thief point literally for free. The other goes close as reinforcement, turning the fight into a 3v5 that the guardians win again. The thieves lose one point for free, and gain nothing. Thieves only advantage is that they rotate faster. An advantage that is meaningless when no matter where you go on the map, you lose. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now if it was 5 thieves including repeating builds they ... still would lose obviously, but they'd have more of a chance. But non-repeating builds? Yeah no thats a loss 100% of the time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok so you think the 1 “support firebrand” will have precast signet of mercy on his 1 player that got insta downed ? It’s laughable- 5 fully stealthed thief’s will have 1 shot him/her out of stealth and guess what they will try to rez and not get it unless against bots and a support firebrand would be so squish that he will die and have no chance to get the rez, maybe you have a burn or 1 shot dh down someone but they will probably rally if they got that lucky. this miraclous 3v5 comp of mostly underperforming specs would insta die too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh I completely forgot that guardian had a res signet. Its not even neccessary. 5 fully stealthed thieves? What, are you going to assume that theyre just going to ignore that obvious smokefield, and not, yknow, place traps down to inhibit the thieves? Plus, were talking non-repeating builds. Good luck one-shotting when you only have 1 backstab build, and the remaining builds either have telegraphed and avoidable/blockable burst, or no burst at all. And why do you think the support firebrand would be on far, I'd have placed it mid. And no, the 3v5 comp of mostly good builds would completely destroy the 5 thieves of which 0 have builds that are even remotely useful for teamfighting. What are the thieves gonna do? Try and fail to burst down on target, while eating enough damage to down every single one of them? > > > > > > > > > > > > News flash. The only spec that can actually get to the others teams side at same time as them on almost every map is thief and that’s assuming regular movement speed + maybe swiftness. This thief team could get to the other side about a fast as most teams could get to mid. The dh could at best get to the other teams side only against regular teams, on kyhlo and with a target for teleports. They wouldn’t be able to get to the thief’s stealth area and wouldn’t know where they are on the map- maybe they are pushing far, which u said only has 2(that’s a bronze teir strat that only works against bots btw) or maybe they are mid being picky with a target. If the guard wants to rotate they wil just 1 shot him and if they just sit where they are with your unviable split than they are even more of sitting ducks. > > > > > > > > > > Correct, theyre faster. As I said. "Thieves only advantage is that they rotate faster. An advantage that is meaningless when no matter where you go on the map, you lose". Yes, the reinforcements from mid arrive later, but thats fine, thieves cant kill fast enough, and by the time they do arrive, its game over for the thieves. And no, it works against thieves brilliantly, since it abuses thieves *complete* lack of teamfighting and killing potential. As I said, the guardians can just sit mid and close, and they win by default. If the thieves try to push close (literally their *only* option, so its 100% predictable), the guardians will get a free point. There is *no* situation in which the thieves can win. Because 5 thieves is an unviable comp that fails against *all* half-way functional comps (decap and +1 bots are only good as a 1 of in your team, not if you have 5), whereas 5 Guardians is a functional comp, albeit a weak one. > > > > > > > > Good job making an argument entirely around semantics about how much better guard is than thief. Too bad I know you’ve never tried a 5 thief comp before as you said “no ones won an at as 5 thief before” or even attempted it. 2 days ago when my at asked to do 5 thief for the at, and won against somewhat competent teams, I mentioned a person or 2 said thief couldn’t win and they all laughed and said that thief is amazing in conquest so ofc thief could win. > > > > > > > > > > And you havent tried playing 5 *distinct* thief builds against 5 *distinct* guardian builds with players of similar skill level either. In fact, lemme go ahead and guess that your 5 thief team had a lot of overlap, and you only won against poor teams. Correct? Yes? Well thats not surprising. Turns out this is something that you can only do by analysing each teams merits, and average power. And well, you have not made a *single* argument for why thief would totally win other than "theyre faster and they can totally oneshot a guardian and win off of that". Ignoring that the second part isnt even true. > > > > > > > If you have never tested it than you know zilch and in this case you are very wrong. There’s a reason high rated players have pointed this out to you because they already have played the game and well, which you made clear that you have never played and don’t know anything about. > > > > > > In case you havent noticed (not terribly surprising given how utterly **self-absorbed** you are), *youre literally the only person arguing that 5 thieves would win*. Multiple people have already said that thief would lose, and several have even called you out on trying to argue that thief totally would win. So Im sorry, but those made up "high rated players" dont exist. In fact, if youre willing to lie about that, I wouldn't be surprised if you didnt even try a 5 thief AT at all, and lied about that too. > > > > Here he goes again. I already said against decent teams ie. plat+ lfg groups and one plat team had a god of pvp + best of best title. Guess what 5 guard is most likely worse than their meta comp so why wouldn’t it be able to beat 5 guard but than again that’s not your argument your argument you are making baseless and incorrect claims about how 5 thief cannot win an at and no ones even tried to. > > Because against an evenly skilled team, 5 thieves would lose embarassingly 100% of the time? Its a *lot* worse than a meta team. And I said that no one tried bringing 5 thieves to an AT. That was true. Now youre claiming you totally brought 5 thieves to an AT, but as I said. If youre willing to lie about other high rated players *totally* agreeing with you, why wouldnt you be willing to lie about that too? Good job at cementing your place as that forum guy. Ragnar already told you you were wrong and I know for a fact he’s “much much higher rated than you. Everything else didn’t happen also I guess like probably the hundreds of ats that have been so thief comps. Also btw for the past idk 5 months triple thief comps have been banned from in-houses for being very strong and incredibly toxic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A team of 5 thieves would be a nightmare for a team of 5 guardians to face, IF the 5 thieves are co-ordinating on voice-comms. If it was just a pug group with no voice-comms then yeah, guards would win easily, but voice-comm level co-ordination is a game-changer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it wouldnt be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unless the 5 guards all sit together on 1 node, there's plenty of opportunity for thieves to out-rotate and zerg down 1 after the other. 4 thieves spiking out of stealth, stealing stability and spamming unblockable interrupts will very quickly end a guardian which is outnumbered. Once the snowball is started it'd be difficult to stop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah actually that wouldnt happen. Here is what the guardians do. 3 mid, 2 close, one of the ones going close being a bunker. Lets say DH bunker. The Guardians take mid and close, because thieves lose those fights, then hold them ad infinitum as the thieves are powerless to stop any of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simple example: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both teams split 1-3-1 at start. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would they guardian send any far? They just go 3-2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On each node, into 1v1 or 3v3, the guardian is favoured against the thief. So guardian wins right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually even if its a 3v5 mid, guardian wins. They take mid and close, and just sit on them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The 3 thieves on mid just leave, 2 go to far, 1 to close. They'll be able to get there a good 15-20 seconds before the slow guards from mid will be able to follow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, lets say all 5 thieves go close. 2 guardians from mid move. One takes far, the other goes close. The ones on close will be able to survive of course until the third one arrives (remember, one is a bunker), and once the third one arrives, its a teamfight they win once more. The thieves lose a point, and fail to pick up anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They pick up the kills on close and far, so now they have a 5v3 situation on the map and both side-nodes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh they wont get any kills. The situation will remain a 5v5 on paper, but a 2v5 in practice, because most of the thieves are useless. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Obviously it requires a degree of co-ordination that is not available to pugs, but it is in no way a foregone conclusion. It also kinda depends on the map, somewhere with lots of no-ports close to the node like skyhammer of colosseum would be tougher for thieves to snowball on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh it absolutely is a foregone conclusion. The fact that thieves cant kill guardians unless they *really* outnumber them (And even then only slowly) makes it impossible for them to win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hmm ? losing 2v5 to 2 guardians maybe you should’ve spent those months of practice to try and finally win a daily on thief instead of guardian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3v5. 2v5 the thieves might win, but not fast enough to do so before reinforcements arrive and turn the fight around. And if you cant win a 3v5 against 5 thieves as guardians, maybe you should try learning guardian. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are u seriously gonna argue that. As Ragnar, a top 25 guard main, pointed out 5 thief’s on 1 guard is an insta kill. It doesn’t matter if it’s 2,3 or 4. You get 1 insta kill and u don’t have to 3v5, though I’ll admit in a team fight burn stacks could meme a thief and if the guards are good enough they could just rev them, but a good thief team would see 1 death or a Rez and all rotate while the guards would show up 10 secs too late. It would just take 1 fight on sides to snowball to start a massive snowball and on a map like coliseum where thief is insanely good and guard is only so-so then this would be a no brained for a team on comma to accomplish > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ill take "what is a bunker" and "what is ressing" and "what is invulnerability" each for 500. You maybe down one guy, then he gets ressed immediately and youre back to square one. And thats assuming you even down the one guy. After all, backstab thieves burst is already pretty poor, and you only get the one. The others are going to have to play different builds. With worse and more telegraphed burst. The guardian can just use his defenses and remain completely fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would take 1 *successful* fight. Unfortunately for the thieves, they will not get a succesful fight. Here is whats going to happen. The guardians will send 3 mid, and 2 close. They will take both points. The thieves will obviously have no chance of ever taking mid. They lose the fight 5v3 100% of the time. So, lets say the thieves then go 5 close, to try and get that point. While they do win the 5v2 eventually, since the ones on close are a bunker and one at least reasonably tanky guardian ,they will do so much too slowly. The guardians at mid will dispatch 2. One goes far, and takes the now undefended thief point literally for free. The other goes close as reinforcement, turning the fight into a 3v5 that the guardians win again. The thieves lose one point for free, and gain nothing. Thieves only advantage is that they rotate faster. An advantage that is meaningless when no matter where you go on the map, you lose. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now if it was 5 thieves including repeating builds they ... still would lose obviously, but they'd have more of a chance. But non-repeating builds? Yeah no thats a loss 100% of the time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok so you think the 1 “support firebrand” will have precast signet of mercy on his 1 player that got insta downed ? It’s laughable- 5 fully stealthed thief’s will have 1 shot him/her out of stealth and guess what they will try to rez and not get it unless against bots and a support firebrand would be so squish that he will die and have no chance to get the rez, maybe you have a burn or 1 shot dh down someone but they will probably rally if they got that lucky. this miraclous 3v5 comp of mostly underperforming specs would insta die too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh I completely forgot that guardian had a res signet. Its not even neccessary. 5 fully stealthed thieves? What, are you going to assume that theyre just going to ignore that obvious smokefield, and not, yknow, place traps down to inhibit the thieves? Plus, were talking non-repeating builds. Good luck one-shotting when you only have 1 backstab build, and the remaining builds either have telegraphed and avoidable/blockable burst, or no burst at all. And why do you think the support firebrand would be on far, I'd have placed it mid. And no, the 3v5 comp of mostly good builds would completely destroy the 5 thieves of which 0 have builds that are even remotely useful for teamfighting. What are the thieves gonna do? Try and fail to burst down on target, while eating enough damage to down every single one of them? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > News flash. The only spec that can actually get to the others teams side at same time as them on almost every map is thief and that’s assuming regular movement speed + maybe swiftness. This thief team could get to the other side about a fast as most teams could get to mid. The dh could at best get to the other teams side only against regular teams, on kyhlo and with a target for teleports. They wouldn’t be able to get to the thief’s stealth area and wouldn’t know where they are on the map- maybe they are pushing far, which u said only has 2(that’s a bronze teir strat that only works against bots btw) or maybe they are mid being picky with a target. If the guard wants to rotate they wil just 1 shot him and if they just sit where they are with your unviable split than they are even more of sitting ducks. > > > > > > > > > > > > Correct, theyre faster. As I said. "Thieves only advantage is that they rotate faster. An advantage that is meaningless when no matter where you go on the map, you lose". Yes, the reinforcements from mid arrive later, but thats fine, thieves cant kill fast enough, and by the time they do arrive, its game over for the thieves. And no, it works against thieves brilliantly, since it abuses thieves *complete* lack of teamfighting and killing potential. As I said, the guardians can just sit mid and close, and they win by default. If the thieves try to push close (literally their *only* option, so its 100% predictable), the guardians will get a free point. There is *no* situation in which the thieves can win. Because 5 thieves is an unviable comp that fails against *all* half-way functional comps (decap and +1 bots are only good as a 1 of in your team, not if you have 5), whereas 5 Guardians is a functional comp, albeit a weak one. > > > > > > > > > > Good job making an argument entirely around semantics about how much better guard is than thief. Too bad I know you’ve never tried a 5 thief comp before as you said “no ones won an at as 5 thief before” or even attempted it. 2 days ago when my at asked to do 5 thief for the at, and won against somewhat competent teams, I mentioned a person or 2 said thief couldn’t win and they all laughed and said that thief is amazing in conquest so ofc thief could win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > And you havent tried playing 5 *distinct* thief builds against 5 *distinct* guardian builds with players of similar skill level either. In fact, lemme go ahead and guess that your 5 thief team had a lot of overlap, and you only won against poor teams. Correct? Yes? Well thats not surprising. Turns out this is something that you can only do by analysing each teams merits, and average power. And well, you have not made a *single* argument for why thief would totally win other than "theyre faster and they can totally oneshot a guardian and win off of that". Ignoring that the second part isnt even true. > > > > > > > > > If you have never tested it than you know zilch and in this case you are very wrong. There’s a reason high rated players have pointed this out to you because they already have played the game and well, which you made clear that you have never played and don’t know anything about. > > > > > > > > In case you havent noticed (not terribly surprising given how utterly **self-absorbed** you are), *youre literally the only person arguing that 5 thieves would win*. Multiple people have already said that thief would lose, and several have even called you out on trying to argue that thief totally would win. So Im sorry, but those made up "high rated players" dont exist. In fact, if youre willing to lie about that, I wouldn't be surprised if you didnt even try a 5 thief AT at all, and lied about that too. > > > > > > Here he goes again. I already said against decent teams ie. plat+ lfg groups and one plat team had a god of pvp + best of best title. Guess what 5 guard is most likely worse than their meta comp so why wouldn’t it be able to beat 5 guard but than again that’s not your argument your argument you are making baseless and incorrect claims about how 5 thief cannot win an at and no ones even tried to. > > > > Because against an evenly skilled team, 5 thieves would lose embarassingly 100% of the time? Its a *lot* worse than a meta team. And I said that no one tried bringing 5 thieves to an AT. That was true. Now youre claiming you totally brought 5 thieves to an AT, but as I said. If youre willing to lie about other high rated players *totally* agreeing with you, why wouldnt you be willing to lie about that too? > > Good job at cementing your place as that forum guy. Ragnar already told you you were wrong and I know for a fact he’s “much much higher rated than you. Everything else didn’t happen also I guess like probably the hundreds of ats that have been so thief comps. > Also btw for the past idk 5 months triple thief comps have been banned from in-houses for being very strong and incredibly toxic. You mean the same Ragnar that ranked thief *last* and guardian *third* for this challenge? And the one who assumed the guardians would not be on comms and make drastic misplay for that specific comment? Man youre not very good at making it seem like youre not alone, are you? And yes, it didnt happen, else you would've shown proof by now. Guess I was spot on with you lying once more. And *sure* they have, thats why MATs dont see triple thief comps ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheman.3589 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 This reminds me of when a silver lfg team thought a 5- X team was a try hard team. The silver rated players have more knowledge than the community I’m sure of it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > This reminds me of when a silver lfg team thought a 5- X team was a try hard team. The silver rated players have more knowledge than the community I’m sure of it now. You know, your tactic of just trying to ignore every time you get called out is getting rather tiresome, as is your attempt at faux elitism. Maybe learn to just take the L? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exile.8160 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 > @"wevh.2903" said: > > @"Exile.8160" said: > > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > I think guardian since you have a decent build for every role . > > > > Lool guard only has burn, everyyhing else they had has been neef into nothingness. > > > > I would say mecro because they can use use everything, scorge core and reaper. > > Giardian has support core wich is pretty decent , sagebrand is still pretty decent and bunker core symbols for sidenoding too. On a gold under teams yes but plat+ no way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheman.3589 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 > @"Exile.8160" said: > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > @"Exile.8160" said: > > > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > > I think guardian since you have a decent build for every role . > > > > > > Lool guard only has burn, everyyhing else they had has been neef into nothingness. > > > > > > I would say mecro because they can use use everything, scorge core and reaper. > > > > Giardian has support core wich is pretty decent , sagebrand is still pretty decent and bunker core symbols for sidenoding too. > > On a gold under teams yes but plat+ no way. Core support guard is actually very decent. With shouts it’s instant healing is definitely better than firebrand in every way. There’s also a person playing in high plat3 on it in Eu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeqkOneStylez.8047 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 Apparently shortbow 5 needs another nerf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 > @"TeqkOneStylez.8047" said: > Apparently shortbow 5 needs another nerf ini system needs a rework but that aint happening :/ @"UNOwen.7132" nobody argues with you since there is no point, you make statements, instantly take them as absolute and utter truth, and despite being proven wrong refuse to accept it, sooner or later @"Dantheman.3589" will realize this and stop responding, or if he has already he will get bored off it as I did and interact with people worth having conversations with, just a food for thought for you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"TeqkOneStylez.8047" said: > > Apparently shortbow 5 needs another nerf > > ini system needs a rework but that aint happening :/ > @"UNOwen.7132" nobody argues with you since there is no point, you make statements, instantly take them as absolute and utter truth, and despite being proven wrong refuse to accept it, sooner or later @"Dantheman.3589" will realize this and stop responding, or if he has already he will get bored off it as I did and interact with people worth having conversations with, just a food for thought for you You're projecting Im afraid, mister "I fell for an obvious fabrication and tripled down on it even after being proven wrong repeatedly". Youre the one who makes statements, instantly takes them as absolute and utter truth, and despite being proven wrong refuse to accept it. Dan is similar, except he just outright lies sometimes. God knows why, given how easy it is to figure out that he is lying usually, but yknow. Something he does, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wevh.2903 Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 > @"Exile.8160" said: > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > @"Exile.8160" said: > > > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > > I think guardian since you have a decent build for every role . > > > > > > Lool guard only has burn, everyyhing else they had has been neef into nothingness. > > > > > > I would say mecro because they can use use everything, scorge core and reaper. > > > > Giardian has support core wich is pretty decent , sagebrand is still pretty decent and bunker core symbols for sidenoding too. > > On a gold under teams yes but plat+ no way. Yes tha> @"Exile.8160" said: > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > @"Exile.8160" said: > > > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > > I think guardian since you have a decent build for every role . > > > > > > Lool guard only has burn, everyyhing else they had has been neef into nothingness. > > > > > > I would say mecro because they can use use everything, scorge core and reaper. > > > > Giardian has support core wich is pretty decent , sagebrand is still pretty decent and bunker core symbols for sidenoding too. > > On a gold under teams yes but plat+ no way. Yes thats why poledra plays core supports at plat3 and recently lot of teams like worms tested core supports at ATs . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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