Guardian NERF

[dani.5680]

Still not the time to destroy this class to oblivion? ATM this class has the best condi dmg/best powerdamage/best sustain via blocks/best healing!

Should not 1 class be able to do all these things with so little effort!

I think its time to kill it like you did with all the other classes, from rev/necro to engi, to warr and other classes you killed with nerf hammer!

So lets do one more try and kill all guardian builds so other can raise from the ashes!

[Jilora.9524]

I'd rather a buff other classes up to their level

[Lucio.4190]

Logic says that when everyone's competing with Condition Damage and Power, the best stats will win.

Is it possible to use other attributes that will neutralize that build, using a different tactic? (Just asking, trying to understand if there really isn't another way to build a character)

[dani.5680]

> @"Lucio.4190" said:

> Logic says that when everyone's competing with Condition Damage and Power, the best stats will win.

> Is it possible to use other attributes that will neutralize that build, using a different tactic? (Just asking, trying to understand if there really isn't another way to build a character)

 

Thats why i didnt post it to pve or pvp! the class is top tier on both and all aspects of the game and i dont find it normal as it kicks other classes from the party/squad!

[Blooddiamond.8902]

> @"dani.5680" said:

> Still not the time to destroy this class to oblivion? ATM this class has the best condi dmg/best powerdamage/best sustain via blocks/best healing!

> Should not 1 class be able to do all these things with so little effort!

> I think its time to kill it like you did with all the other classes, from rev/necro to engi, to warr and other classes you killed with nerf hammer!

> So lets do one more try and kill all guardian builds so other can raise from the ashes!

 

Can you profe your statements with data? Our is this only your personal feelings? If i look at Snowcrows golem benchmarks, i see Power Weaver and power chrono on top and classes like holo, daredevil and soulbeast are at the same level as Guardian, from the Dps side. If you look at the boss benchmarks beside on Adina and Deimos out of 19 boss encounters, Guardion is not Top Dps.

Heal Tempest should have the most healing and if you run with 1 healer in Raids you will run to 95% a druid.

To make 1 think clear, if you play your class proberly, you can clear all encounter with every class. Sure some Comps will make the encounter easier, but if the LFG demands this Comps, then it the Player habits/mentalitie that exclude other players from the party, or the players currently skill in the game and not that your class is not good enough.

In PvP there is a post from 02.2020 which ranks builds for pvp and the first Guardion build is on C Tier (quote: https://www.gamersdecide.com/articles/gw2-tier-list-guild-wars-2-best-dps-class) . Right now Guardion is not Top Tier too in PvP.

[dani.5680]

> @"Blooddiamond.8902" said:

> > @"dani.5680" said:

> > Still not the time to destroy this class to oblivion? ATM this class has the best condi dmg/best powerdamage/best sustain via blocks/best healing!

> > Should not 1 class be able to do all these things with so little effort!

> > I think its time to kill it like you did with all the other classes, from rev/necro to engi, to warr and other classes you killed with nerf hammer!

> > So lets do one more try and kill all guardian builds so other can raise from the ashes!

>

> Can you profe your statements with data? Our is this only your personal feelings? If i look at Snowcrows golem benchmarks, i see Power Weaver and power chrono on top and classes like holo, daredevil and soulbeast are at the same level as Guardian, from the Dps side. If you look at the boss benchmarks beside on Adina and Deimos out of 19 boss encounters, Guardion is not Top Dps.

> Heal Tempest should have the most healing and if you run with 1 healer in Raids you will run to 95% a druid.

> To make 1 think clear, if you play your class proberly, you can clear all encounter with every class. Sure some Comps will make the encounter easier, but if the LFG demands this Comps, then it the Player habits/mentalitie that exclude other players from the party, or the players currently skill in the game and not that your class is not good enough.

> In PvP there is a post from 02.2020 which ranks builds for pvp and the first Guardion build is on C Tier (quote: https://www.gamersdecide.com/articles/gw2-tier-list-guild-wars-2-best-dps-class) . Right now Guardion is not Top Tier too in PvP.

 

Go test on fractal golem where you are not dependant on others buffs! It tops everything! And at g3+ in pvp there are 2-3 guards/ team! Please check actual facts not from early 2020! We got +10 more months now of patches and nerfs! Guardian is top tear of everything atm! The cdps guardian is 20k with 0 buffs 0 might, independent of other classes buffs! Its crazy! DH trapper condi in pvp wrecks charts! HFB tops heals and is better than druid in most fights!

[Pregnantman.8259]

Druid has never been strong in heals, pretty much any of the other popular heal builds are stronger than Druid. You bring Druid for boons and other builds for actual healing, this has been the case for years. It is also important to consider that Druid has much stronger range heal than hfb.

 

In terms of damage in PvE there are a lot of builds that are decently strong, and a good number of builds can outclass DH and CFB, to the point that dT recommends Weaver and pSlb over the guard dps builds and dps guards are not considered meta in the absolute sense. Even in raids they are not really at the top and they compete neck to neck with many other classes, and the highest power dps builds rely on Virtues Unscathed Contender which is pretty difficult to maintain in most cases. In condi FB is outclassed by Berserker, Renegade and Ele and depending on the fight Mirages.

 

I also don't find much value in discussing dps without group support. Daredevil would probably bench over 20k by pretty much autoattacking without boons, does that mean Daredevil is OP? Reaper can give all quickness and might to themselves anyway, and I suspect they would be over 20k as well solo. To some extent power Chrono does this too. What is the point?

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"dani.5680" said:

> Still not the time to destroy this class to oblivion?

 

Ideally, ANet do not "destroy" any profession.

 

> ATM this class has the best condi dmg/best powerdamage/best sustain via blocks/best healing!

 

Define "best". Player's perception of "best" is often relative to specific conditions, ask yourself in which conditions the guardian is "best" as these roles and why. If you do so, you'll probably understand why other professions aren't "best" in these situations. At the same time it would help other players a lot to understand you since you'd provide context.

 

> Should not 1 class be able to do all these things with so little effort!

 

The game is designed in such a way that you're not supposed to need a specific profession for a specific role.

 

> I think its time to kill it like you did with all the other classes, from rev/necro to engi, to warr and other classes you killed with nerf hammer!

 

Here again, there is a need for context. If you look over a long enough timeframe and at the game in general, be it rev, necro, engi or even warrior, all those professions are in a way better state than they used to be (So, far from being "killed").

 

> So lets do one more try and kill all guardian builds so other can raise from the ashes!

 

 

[draxynnic.3719]


 

(Since the image doesn't seem to be working properly, let's just say I'm getting strong Poe's Law vibes out of this one.)

 

If serious... yeah, just look at the actual benchmarks and build sites. Guardians have been falling out of the sPvP meta lately - I still see them occasionally, but I'm much more concerned when I see a holosmith or any necromancer on the enemy team, and funnily enough, those are more common. Snowcrows only recommends guardians as the main source of DPS for three out of nineteen raid bosses, and for more than half they don't recommend bringing a guardian at all. WvW they rank pretty highly because Stability, but that's because of how important Stability is in WvW - people would still want firebrands or scrappers in zergs even if that was literally all they did unless some other profession gets the ability to pump out stability like they can. Fractals they do well in because power boon chronomancer doesn't seem to do as well in that mode (not sure why, as I don't play fractals at the top level).

 

Either way, it's pretty clear that they don't have the best at everything. A quickbrand might do well against a golem if you assume no outside boons (since the quickbrand brings its own quickness), but that's a pretty artificial situation, and a quickness reaper might actually pull ahead in that situation (a large part of why reaper doesn't perform too well in raids is because it's balanced on the basis of giving itself a lot of offensive buffs).

[Brokensunday.4098]

> @"dani.5680" said:

> Still not the time to destroy this class to oblivion? ATM this class has the best condi dmg/best powerdamage/best sustain via blocks/best healing!

> Should not 1 class be able to do all these things with so little effort!

> I think its time to kill it like you did with all the other classes, from rev/necro to engi, to warr and other classes you killed with nerf hammer!

> So lets do one more try and kill all guardian builds so other can raise from the ashes!

 

Pve class is balanced, pvp class has ok sustain low power damage high condi burst but low condi mantain scicne it only has one type of condition, fb is dead dh is a meme core is laking.

Wvw zerg game core is good dh is for roaming or zerg ganking and fb is just heal boon bot

 

[Gwaihir.1745]

> @"dani.5680" said:

> > @"Blooddiamond.8902" said:

> > > @"dani.5680" said:

> > > Still not the time to destroy this class to oblivion? ATM this class has the best condi dmg/best powerdamage/best sustain via blocks/best healing!

> > > Should not 1 class be able to do all these things with so little effort!

> > > I think its time to kill it like you did with all the other classes, from rev/necro to engi, to warr and other classes you killed with nerf hammer!

> > > So lets do one more try and kill all guardian builds so other can raise from the ashes!

> >

> > Can you profe your statements with data? Our is this only your personal feelings? If i look at Snowcrows golem benchmarks, i see Power Weaver and power chrono on top and classes like holo, daredevil and soulbeast are at the same level as Guardian, from the Dps side. If you look at the boss benchmarks beside on Adina and Deimos out of 19 boss encounters, Guardion is not Top Dps.

> > Heal Tempest should have the most healing and if you run with 1 healer in Raids you will run to 95% a druid.

> > To make 1 think clear, if you play your class proberly, you can clear all encounter with every class. Sure some Comps will make the encounter easier, but if the LFG demands this Comps, then it the Player habits/mentalitie that exclude other players from the party, or the players currently skill in the game and not that your class is not good enough.

> > In PvP there is a post from 02.2020 which ranks builds for pvp and the first Guardion build is on C Tier (quote: https://www.gamersdecide.com/articles/gw2-tier-list-guild-wars-2-best-dps-class) . Right now Guardion is not Top Tier too in PvP.

>

> Go test on fractal golem

 

/s /thread /dudeslegitrelyingongolemstats

 

 

[Wuffy.9732]

> @"Brokensunday.4098" said:

> > @"dani.5680" said:

> > Still not the time to destroy this class to oblivion? ATM this class has the best condi dmg/best powerdamage/best sustain via blocks/best healing!

> > Should not 1 class be able to do all these things with so little effort!

> > I think its time to kill it like you did with all the other classes, from rev/necro to engi, to warr and other classes you killed with nerf hammer!

> > So lets do one more try and kill all guardian builds so other can raise from the ashes!

>

> Pve class is balanced

>

 

Most other condi classes don't even come close to that lol...

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

The mono-class mentality is not something new. Before Guardian was the master of everything, Mesmer was. The huge advantage we have with Guardian: It is an easy class.

 

Both the learn- and skill-curve are rather flat compared to its predecessors. The gear is easy to obtain and the rotations are often quite similar. It is even a great option for new players.

 

That said, I doubt the Guardian's successor class will be an improvement. There is a high chance they pick another difficult class again, which may require some weird stats to work and even weirder rotations. The current situation is not great, we are not in a balanced state. But so far we did not see a balance of talents. There has always been one class which was superior among all others, a few classes which were considered meta and a few classes which perform way below average and/or have an incredible effort/result ratio.

[Mouse.7382]

I was getting tired of being excluded (asked if I had another class) or just outright kicked from groups after joining CM Fractals.

 

I've mained Mesmer & Thief for years--and I play them well. They do have their limitations, and by no means, top tier to a competent META counter part, however, they get the job done.

 

While attempting to get the Fractal titles, and bypass the BS pug groups I've join/created.

 

I made a HB this week. No questions from group members. No complaints about Thief/Mesmer dps not being up to par, with Guardians/SlB/Warriors/Halos. No complains of Teef being dps greedy and not contributing buffs (however, no praise for CC bars being insta gone and no need for other members to slot CC utilities).

 

Now, do I enjoy the playstyle of the guardian? The anwer is no. Their skills and flow of both memer and thief are unmatched. Subjectively, they are way more fun to play.

[Infusion.7149]

As typically a chrono, rev (herald/renegade) , and firebrand player because everyone wants to play DPS... it's not going to make reaper suddenly wanted in PVE. Firstly, it is a pain in the rear to try to heal reapers instead of other classes and specs, and secondly if there's quickness for the party and/or squad the main advantage of reaper is negated (self quickness) while requiring life force which isn't plentiful in many types of boss fights.

 

In PvP you don't really have a legitimate argument if you play reaper as you won't insta-melt to burning anyway (especially since PVP versions of burning skills have lower stacks generally) unless you stand in a whole bunch of traps or have multiple people hit by virtue of justice such that it procs often. Any build running an amulet with precision doesn't have as much vitality or power because there's nothing with vitality, precision, ferocity, and condition damage. There's rabid (condition , toughness, precision) with more or less no power output , sage's (power, condition, healing, vitality) with low crit chance without fury, carrion (condition, vitality, power) with no crit chance or ferocity, and wizard's (condition, power , vitality, precision) with no ferocity typically. Marshal's has no vitality or ferocity but has healing power so any guardian running it is susceptible to burst.

--- if you mean the trapper rune DH , that has its own drawbacks such as inability to contest while stealthed , no stability or stunbreak outside of virtue of courage

In WVW , guardian is pretty much for stability right now: if you nerf that people will just run heralds for stability (inspiring reinforcement) and scrappers (bulwark gyro / defense field ; med kit + purge gyro) for heals.

 

Also calling for "destroying" a class is an utterly unhealthy mentality. Even more so when guardian is the most played class. Look at chrono after it was gutted in fractals ; only recently due to StM and the restoration of cloneless shatters has it came back in any fashion. I would rather that thief had party quickness in the trickery line to offer more options for players since boon thief is already a thing where it is available for use.

 

The only thing I would say needs looking at on guardian as a whole is the mantra of solace: would rather a slightly higher cooldown and higher base heal in PVP/WVW. Having aegis, heal, and quickness on one skill is rather overloaded and I would much rather that quickness duration be reduced and tacked on to the mantra of potence skill (which incidentally is an extremely short 1s duration in PVP/WVW). Old chrono distortion needed much more timing and it isn't balanced overall in that sense. On the damage side of things if there's going to be nerfs, I have a feeling the priority would be minor things such as the vulnerability stacks on Sword of Justice or the burn duration applied by spirit weapons as opposed to a sledgehammer approach.

 

> @"Mouse.7382" said:

> Now, do I enjoy the playstyle of the guardian? The anwer is no. Their skills and flow of both memer and thief are unmatched. Subjectively, they are way more fun to play.

You should support the addition of party quickness to thieves' trickery line in _Bountiful Theft_ or possibly _Thrill of the Crime_ / _Burst of Agility_. Thief isn't going to be a requested profession unless it puts out boons or profession specific enhancements such as Empower Allies / Banners/ Spotter / Assassin's Presence. Mesmer has its own issues (ramp time due to shatter mechanic) but it still puts out party quickness with _Seize the Moment_. Asking for a nerf to guardians isn't going to accomplish that. There's a whole cadre of untapped potential if raiding boon thieves are an alternative to quickbrands and StM chronos.

 

 

[draxynnic.3719]

> @"Infusion.7149" said:

> Old chrono distortion needed much more timing and it isn't balanced overall in that sense.

 

I think the problem ArenaNet had with party distortion is that it protected against skills that were unblockable and undodgeable, allowing the group to flat-out ignore some mechanics. I think ArenaNet is happy with the mesmer themselves avoiding this mechanic, but not the whole party.

 

Aegis only allows blocking attacks that ArenaNet intended to be blockable, so it's more controllable from their perspective.

[Infusion.7149]

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > @"Infusion.7149" said:

> > Old chrono distortion needed much more timing and it isn't balanced overall in that sense.

>

> I think the problem ArenaNet had with party distortion is that it protected against skills that were unblockable and undodgeable, allowing the group to flat-out ignore some mechanics. I think ArenaNet is happy with the mesmer themselves avoiding this mechanic, but not the whole party.

>

> Aegis only allows blocking attacks that ArenaNet intended to be blockable, so it's more controllable from their perspective.

That hasn't been relevant ever since distortion was changed to be on the mesmer only.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Inspiring_Distortion

December 12, **2017**: _Updated this trait to now grant Aegis to allies instead of distortion_

 

Firebrands can put out aegis in less than 10 second intervals. Anyone that has the option of using firebrand or chrono with inspiration will choose firebrand because even if you are full DPS firebrand you can stack mantra of solace. See 100CM groups.

 

That basically nullifies the purpose of mace if the healing output of the auto isn't required and makes the "Retreat" skill basically unused.

 

Arenanet had the foresight to make 25 seconds cooldown for the stability on Mantra of Liberation yet Mantra of Solace is 12 seconds base ammo/charge cooldown even before Weighty Terms or alacrity.

[Opopanax.1803]

Instead of nerfing PVE guardian, I'd love to see them make other classes have the same build variety and trait options.

For PVE, what guardian has in traits and builds right now should really try to be emulated for other classes. I want MORE options to play in other professions, not for Guardian to be nerfed down to less builds.

[otto.5684]

> @"Infusion.7149" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > @"Infusion.7149" said:

> > > Old chrono distortion needed much more timing and it isn't balanced overall in that sense.

> >

> > I think the problem ArenaNet had with party distortion is that it protected against skills that were unblockable and undodgeable, allowing the group to flat-out ignore some mechanics. I think ArenaNet is happy with the mesmer themselves avoiding this mechanic, but not the whole party.

> >

> > Aegis only allows blocking attacks that ArenaNet intended to be blockable, so it's more controllable from their perspective.

> That hasn't been relevant ever since distortion was changed to be on the mesmer only.

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Inspiring_Distortion

> December 12, **2017**: _Updated this trait to now grant Aegis to allies instead of distortion_

>

> Firebrands can put out aegis in less than 10 second intervals. Anyone that has the option of using firebrand or chrono with inspiration will choose firebrand because even if you are full DPS firebrand you can stack mantra of solace. See 100CM groups.

>

> That basically nullifies the purpose of mace if the healing output of the auto isn't required and makes the "Retreat" skill basically unused.

>

> Arenanet had the foresight to make 25 seconds cooldown for the stability on Mantra of Liberation yet Mantra of Solace is 12 seconds base ammo/charge cooldown even before Weighty Terms or alacrity.

 

I too always viewed the 12 sec CD on MoS to be broken, even in pve. With exception of mace and shield, which are defensive weapons, anything that provides aegis has 30+ sec CD. Then Anet decides to put on FB on a heal with no cast time and 9.5 CD traited. This is just... bizarre. Of course it has balance galore issues.

 

I like FB, but I always felt it is way too generous in the support department, while playing dps. Still, it is not the out of the world monster the OP makes it to be. Its damage is inline and DH damage is good, but also inline.

 

Nothing works in sPvP nowadays though :/

[Wuffy.9732]

> @"Opopanax.1803" said:

> Instead of nerfing PVE guardian, I'd love to see them make other classes have the same build variety and trait options.

> For PVE, what guardian has in traits and builds right now should really try to be emulated for other classes. I want MORE options to play in other professions, not for Guardian to be nerfed down to less builds.

 

I'm all for this. Particularly buffing /thief/necro/mesmer/ranger(druid) would be ideal.

 

Or , maybe Anet should just rework every class. It's been 6 months since the last balance patch...

[draxynnic.3719]

> @"Infusion.7149" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > @"Infusion.7149" said:

> > > Old chrono distortion needed much more timing and it isn't balanced overall in that sense.

> >

> > I think the problem ArenaNet had with party distortion is that it protected against skills that were unblockable and undodgeable, allowing the group to flat-out ignore some mechanics. I think ArenaNet is happy with the mesmer themselves avoiding this mechanic, but not the whole party.

> >

> > Aegis only allows blocking attacks that ArenaNet intended to be blockable, so it's more controllable from their perspective.

> That hasn't been relevant ever since distortion was changed to be on the mesmer only.

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Inspiring_Distortion

> December 12, **2017**: _Updated this trait to now grant Aegis to allies instead of distortion_

 

_That's my point._ ArenaNet didn't want people bypassing unblockable mechanics for entire subsquads through Distortion, so they changed it to Aegis instead, which doesn't help against unblockables.

 

Guardians still have more aegis (since that's kinda their thing) but at least it isn't stopping unblockables.

 

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Wuffy.9732" said:

> I'm all for this. Particularly buffing /thief/necro/mesmer/ranger(druid) would be ideal.

>

> Or , maybe Anet should just rework every class. It's been 6 months since the last balance patch...

 

I don't think "buff" are needed, QoL maybe but not "buff". Thief have strong support but it's to scattered, necromancer is a lost cause as long as PvE mechanisms (_defiance_) hard nerf it's tools, mesmer have been hurted mainly on it's QoL and druid isn't weak but the draw to "might gen" is to strong for players to focus on it's other strengths (the lack of proper stat set also hurt it's dynamic).

 

There is no proper "support" stat set in the game, the actual "support" stat sets either favor tanking (minstrel/cleric/settler... etc.) or dealing damage, none offer you to just support (well, Harrier might be close to be a proper support set). Let ANet just introduce a healing power/concentration/expertise stat set and/or maybe a variant with vitality and remove the more tanky or damage one.