Scourge nerfed in 2s and 3s

[Dantheman.3589]

I literally haven’t seen anyone bring this up, so I’ll leave it here. My opinion is it’s a bad change and 2s and 3s will just be more boring when everyone gets 1 shot

[Fueki.4753]

The PvP changes aren't tailored around Deathmatch.

The PvP changes always have been pointed a the main PvP mode, which is Conquest.

 

Deathmatch being even more broken than Conquest should be expected.

[Dantheman.3589]

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> The PvP changes aren't tailored around Deathmatch.

> The PvP changes always have been pointed a the main PvP mode, which is Conquest.

>

> Deathmatch being even more broken than Conquest should be expected.

 

Not sure if I understand what you saying, but to clarify the changes are death match specific.

[Fueki.4753]

> @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> Not sure if I understand what you saying, but to clarify the changes are death match specific.

 

If you are referring to the overtime barrier changes than it's not a nerf to any profession/specialization, including Scourge.

It's simply a mechanical change to Team Deathmatch.

[Dantheman.3589]

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > Not sure if I understand what you saying, but to clarify the changes are death match specific.

>

> If you are referring to the overtime barrier changes than it's not a nerf to any profession/specialization, including Scourge.

> It's simply a mechanical change to Team Deathmatch.

 

It is simply a scourge nerf since other specs would come up with like 2k barrier meanwhile scourge could do 15k. It also drops scourge from S teir to at least B. Most ppl complain about this mechanic becuz of scourge so I simply referred to it as scourge nerf for all the forum warriors out there.

[Megametzler.5729]

But that is only during overtime? A build that simply relies on stalling for the whole fight's duration and then wins by an unfair sustain mechanic, which used to be not affected by the overtime, do you really want any such a build to exist?

 

I know I don't, but I absolutely dislike deathmatch anyway.

[Dantheman.3589]

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> But that is only during overtime? A build that simply relies on stalling for the whole fight's duration and then wins by an unfair sustain mechanic, which used to be not affected by the overtime, do you really want any such a build to exist?

>

> I know I don't, but I absolutely dislike deathmatch anyway.

 

Since this seems directly about me. Yes I think it should exist. 1 the mechanic is alittle flaud as it is since it’s no healing and eventually instant death. I wish it was more like wow with just reduced healing. But that’s just opinion about that but talking directly about scourge/ yes I think it should be able to do barrier though I’d be fine if it was just reduced barrier. With this change builds like 1 shot dh which were already top teir and countered this build as it was, will now guess what- be able to eventually 1 shot anyone and anyone that walks into traps and sword of justice will probably have no counter play. Basically stuff that was already over performing as dps build will now exist with even less counter.

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > But that is only during overtime? A build that simply relies on stalling for the whole fight's duration and then wins by an unfair sustain mechanic, which used to be not affected by the overtime, do you really want any such a build to exist?

> >

> > I know I don't, but I absolutely dislike deathmatch anyway.

>

> Since this seems directly about me. Yes I think it should exist. 1 the mechanic is alittle flaud as it is since it’s no healing and eventually instant death. I wish it was more like wow with just reduced healing. But that’s just opinion about that but talking directly about scourge/ yes I think it should be able to do barrier though I’d be fine if it was just reduced barrier. With this change builds like 1 shot dh which were already top teir and countered this build as it was, will now guess what- be able to eventually 1 shot anyone and anyone that walks into traps and sword of justice will probably have no counter play. Basically stuff that was already over performing as dps build will now exist with even less counter.

 

But... it is only once overtime starts.

[Dantheman.3589]

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > > But that is only during overtime? A build that simply relies on stalling for the whole fight's duration and then wins by an unfair sustain mechanic, which used to be not affected by the overtime, do you really want any such a build to exist?

> > >

> > > I know I don't, but I absolutely dislike deathmatch anyway.

> >

> > Since this seems directly about me. Yes I think it should exist. 1 the mechanic is alittle flaud as it is since it’s no healing and eventually instant death. I wish it was more like wow with just reduced healing. But that’s just opinion about that but talking directly about scourge/ yes I think it should be able to do barrier though I’d be fine if it was just reduced barrier. With this change builds like 1 shot dh which were already top teir and countered this build as it was, will now guess what- be able to eventually 1 shot anyone and anyone that walks into traps and sword of justice will probably have no counter play. Basically stuff that was already over performing as dps build will now exist with even less counter.

>

> But... it is only once overtime starts.

 

Maybe I didn’t explain everything as organized as I could. Mechanically barrier makes since because the mechanic is literally no healing with an eventual death field that takes large ticks off you hp however this mechanic generally takes a very long time to reach the players so this is a large period with zero healing and is basically insta death when it hits. No one wants matches where every just insta dies in the corner and with a random winner, hence at least 1 method of someone winning at this point, which was only barrier since you cannot rez ppl either is in some ways skillful and as such should be included. Unless of course they just change it to reduced healing then they can do what they want

Edit: also keep in mind core and reaper shroud are still allowed. Barrier was scourges shroud and now it is basically singled out over other necro specs

[Crozame.4098]

WOW, people are defending overtime barrier... You should know that there are no other form of healing in overtime. And double scourge in 2v2 fighting for overtime is boring as hell and very unhealthy to the game...

 

Its not a fucking random winner... You have the first many minutes to fight... And during overtime ,since there are no other forms of healing and ressing, and hence should be no barrier. I mean, this is such a simple logic....

 

Lastly, there is nothing skilful on the overtime scourge...

[Dantheman.3589]

> @"Crozame.4098" said:

> WOW, people are defending overtime barrier... You should know that there are no other form of healing in overtime. And double scourge in 2v2 fighting for overtime is boring as hell and very unhealthy to the game...

>

> Its not a kitten random winner... You have the first many minutes to fight... And during overtime ,since there are no other forms of healing and ressing, and hence should be no barrier. I mean, this is such a simple logic....

>

> Lastly, there is nothing skilful on the overtime scourge...

 

“You have the first many mins to fight” . That’s incorrect you have the first few and then over time which includes an inevitable finish to it. There no difference in skillfully winning at the very start or at the very end besides the amount of time it took. If say I played bunker scourge and did well or better than others it is an indication of skill and it’s also not “overtime scourge” that was most likely a gimmick presented from steamers who underperformed against such builds, but there is much more to it than just overtime. Barrier a is “heal-like skill” it’s not the same thing as “healing” for example using a Rez signet works by literally healing the down to full and hence doesn’t work at timer and now neither does barrier, my argument is that is not necessarily healthy considering the mechanics of the game mode.

[Grimjack.8130]

the op only queues double/triple scourge every 2v2/3v3 season btw

[Dantheman.3589]

> @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> the op only queues double/triple scourge every 2v2/3v3 season btw

 

I qd renegade x scourge/guard for 2s and healbreaker x 2 dhs for 3s. I do remember doing 1 match against you on triple scourge and winning, there was many levels of misplay that I saw though on that side so it was totally avoidable.

[Dantheman.3589]

Imagine someone who calls ppl, who occupied all their precious “top spots” on the lb and their own “team” wanted them for mats literally a year or more before them, gold/silver players 24/7.

[wevh.2903]

> @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> I literally haven’t seen anyone bring this up, so I’ll leave it here. My opinion is it’s a bad change and 2s and 3s will just be more boring when everyone gets 1 shot

 

Oh ye double tanky scourge waiting 5min to put 30k barrier and win so fun and skilfull thing!

[Bazsi.2734]

> @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> I literally haven’t seen anyone bring this up, so I’ll leave it here. My opinion is it’s a bad change and 2s and 3s will just be more boring when everyone gets 1 shot

 

Classes like weaver, scrapper and scourge have builds where most of their sustain comes from barrier stacking. All other sustain is cut when the timer runs out, so how come these builds are allowed to keep theirs? This change just fixed a great oversight and made 2v2/3v3 much more fair.

 

Also what do you mean the game will become boring when everyone gets oneshot? The match lasts for several long LONG minutes before this effect kicks in. You can stack barrier, heal, be unkillable and unfun during the normal matchtime, same as before.

 

The only thing that really changed is that you cannot cheese the system by stacking barrier anymore. You actually have to play the game now, and aim to defeat the enemy team BEFORE the timer runs out. Seems like the opposite of boring to me. I might even play some 2v2/3v3 now.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

Overtime barrier-spam scourge was a bad build that was bad for the game and will not be missed.

[Megametzler.5729]

I just can't believe someone is actually defending pure bunker bore-out gameplay, designd to make the fight go into overtime and winning theoretically without having to apply any damage... :astonished:

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> I just can't believe someone is actually defending pure bunker bore-out gameplay, designd to make the fight go into overtime and winning theoretically without having to apply any damage... :astonished:

 

Why not? Should DPS builds/strategies be the only ones that have the right to exist in the game?

 

That said, objectively the nerf does not touch only scourge but all profession/e-spec with access to barrier so I think it's totally fair. I mean, be it scrapper (engi), weaver (ele), warrior, ranger or revenant, all of them are hit by this change the same. The only point that might feel unfair is that the necromancer lack other mean of defense but that's a whole different issue.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > I just can't believe someone is actually defending pure bunker bore-out gameplay, designd to make the fight go into overtime and winning theoretically without having to apply any damage... :astonished:

>

> Why not? Should DPS builds/strategies be the only ones that have the right to exist in the game?

>

> That said, objectively the nerf does not touch only scourge but all profession/e-spec with access to barrier so I think it's totally fair. I mean, be it scrapper (engi), weaver (ele), warrior, ranger or revenant, all of them are hit by this change the same. The only point that might feel unfair is that the necromancer lack other mean of defense but that's a whole different issue.

 

following that logic it shouldnt reveal, and we should see perma stealth thiefs wait to overtime and then try to burst/daggerstorm at the end.

I mean its the same shit in the end

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > Why not? Should DPS builds/strategies be the only ones that have the right to exist in the game?

> >

> > That said, objectively the nerf does not touch only scourge but all profession/e-spec with access to barrier so I think it's totally fair. I mean, be it scrapper (engi), weaver (ele), warrior, ranger or revenant, all of them are hit by this change the same. The only point that might feel unfair is that the necromancer lack other mean of defense but that's a whole different issue.

>

> following that logic it shouldnt reveal, and we should see perma stealth thiefs wait to overtime and then try to burst/daggerstorm at the end.

> I mean its the same kitten in the end

 

I don't really get what you're trying to say here. Didn't I say that the nerf was fair?

My logic is that people should have the same right to play builds that allow them to outlast their opponent than builds that aim to finish thing quickly. If a thief want to perma stealth until he is revealed at overtime I have no issue with that.

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > I just can't believe someone is actually defending pure bunker bore-out gameplay, designd to make the fight go into overtime and winning theoretically without having to apply any damage... :astonished:

>

> Why not? Should DPS builds/strategies be the only ones that have the right to exist in the game?

> (...)

 

You probably only read this comment, but I said above already, that neither one-shots nor eternal sustain should be viable strategies. So far, the games clearly tend more towards bunkers and overtime instead of finishing after 20 seconds, so this nerf of unfair sustain leading to unfun strategies is not only fine, but has been very necessary.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > > I just can't believe someone is actually defending pure bunker bore-out gameplay, designd to make the fight go into overtime and winning theoretically without having to apply any damage... :astonished:

> >

> > Why not? Should DPS builds/strategies be the only ones that have the right to exist in the game?

> > (...)

>

> You probably only read this comment, but I said above already, that neither one-shots nor eternal sustain should be viable strategies. So far, the games clearly tend more towards bunkers and overtime instead of finishing after 20 seconds, so this nerf of unfair sustain leading to unfun strategies is not only fine, but has been very necessary.

 

Well, I believe that the issue of the OP is that a scourge without barrier is a scourge without defense while other professions can still shelter themselves behing things like dodge, evade skills, invuln, block... etc. What do you suggest to avoid players abusing those? Disabling these skills/boons/effects and put endurance bar at 0 on overtime?

 

Removing things in itself is bound to lead to question if it's fair to remove those things and why some other things aren't removed as well. You say that the game clearly tend towards bunkers then, objectively, the act of removing barrier here, will push necromancer to bunker in shroud instead and there is high probability that it won't please players any more than scourge bunkering. What's the next step then? Removing LF gen when overtime? Wouldn't that just shut down necromancer's main damage mean because ANet put all the necromancer's eggs into the shroud? Would ANet have to give other profession a similar disadvantage like no more attunment change for elementalist, no more adrenaline gain for warrior, no clone/fantasm for mesmer... etc?

 

We are discussing fairness, so how far can ANet go before things are unfair? Has ANet gone already to far, stripping the scourge from it's mean of defense but not other profession? Or do we consider that the scourge still have a fair amount of defense compared to other profession/specialization without it's barriers? The necromancer focusing on damage reduction instead of damage nullification like other professions is bound to make such change arguable.

 

It's almost worth being a philosophy subject. You say that bunkering is unfun, but locking down players with hard CC isn't fun either, having someone with a lot of mobility reseting fight again and again to wear down your CDs isn't fun either... etc. The game is full of "unfun" strategies but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be valid strategies.

[Dantheman.3589]

> @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> > @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > I literally haven’t seen anyone bring this up, so I’ll leave it here. My opinion is it’s a bad change and 2s and 3s will just be more boring when everyone gets 1 shot

>

> Classes like weaver, scrapper and scourge have builds where most of their sustain comes from barrier stacking. All other sustain is cut when the timer runs out, so how come these builds are allowed to keep theirs? This change just fixed a great oversight and made 2v2/3v3 much more fair.

>

> Also what do you mean the game will become boring when everyone gets oneshot? The match lasts for several long LONG minutes before this effect kicks in. You can stack barrier, heal, be unkillable and unfun during the normal matchtime, same as before.

>

> The only thing that really changed is that you cannot cheese the system by stacking barrier anymore. You actually have to play the game now, and aim to defeat the enemy team BEFORE the timer runs out. Seems like the opposite of boring to me. I might even play some 2v2/3v3 now.

 

I know those specs have barrier, but it is self barrier while stuff like warrior which can share barrier does it slightly less than scourge. All healing was cut at timer but sustain is not, there’s still plenty of things for sustain and barrier a “heal-like” skill, not a heal one was one of them. There is no difference between winning before the mechanic and during as I’ve already said and with this change we are just gonna see more teams randomly dying to mechanics at times and ppl just try to “cheese” the system by using an invuln or necro shroud or w.e can help them survive which is just an effective tactic nothing actually counting as an exploit same as how barrier was an effective strat

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > > > I just can't believe someone is actually defending pure bunker bore-out gameplay, designd to make the fight go into overtime and winning theoretically without having to apply any damage... :astonished:

> > >

> > > Why not? Should DPS builds/strategies be the only ones that have the right to exist in the game?

> > > (...)

> >

> > You probably only read this comment, but I said above already, that neither one-shots nor eternal sustain should be viable strategies. So far, the games clearly tend more towards bunkers and overtime instead of finishing after 20 seconds, so this nerf of unfair sustain leading to unfun strategies is not only fine, but has been very necessary.

>

> (....)

 

It is only a philosophical question if you make it one. No extremes are good.

 

If it was for me, they could instakill every single player after overtime and make it 1 - 1. That would also negate stuff like fears, knockbacks and all this nonsense. But people promoting eternal bunkers is just as awful as promoting instant kills, complaining aboutone-hits from stealth and fights lasting longer than 20 seconds. I do not want either.