Do Support Scrappers heal less than Support Firebrands?

[PrinceValentine.9320]

I told the squad that scrappers are the best healers but my WvW commander said that Firebrands heal better but Scrappers have better condi cleanse. I main Firebrand and don't know much about Engis.

[Wolfb.7025]

Healbrands focuses on healing bursts when Scrapper provides constant healing. Healing is not really the scrapper's main priority though, the condi cleanse is indeed insane and best of all they do convert every single condi into a boon thanks to [Purity of Purpose](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purity_of_Purpose).

 

Both classes can mitigate damage through unique means that basically stack with eachother. thats why they're both godlike supports for WvW. But yeah, when it comes to emergency healings, the HB should take care of that.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

Scrapper heal much more then hfb in pve, in wvw it's despend as your in move most of time

Scrapper have much easier rotation compare to hfb, and can spam 1 just to constantly healing

in wvw scrapper can heal bit less to hfb as Elixir shell+Super elixir are stationary

Problem of scrapper is also that he heal others with 1 not himself, so you need secoundary healer to keep you alive

[Infusion.7149]

Scrapper healing scales with boons and has a lower skill floor for effectiveness. If you have heralds or multiple scrappers using _purity of purpose_ it scales much better. Engineers are better at bulk cleanses (purge gyro , cleansing field, fumigate on Elixir Gun) but mantra of lore remains very competitive with 2 conditions cleansed every 12s base cooldown on 5 people , it's just smaller radius. The reasons why people don't run heal scrappers in PVE is due to role compression, near zero damage while camping med kit, and lower number of scenarios with a high amount of incoming conditions: with a firebrand you can output quickness and stability more reliably.

 

Firebrand healing doesn't stack as well because it depends on aegis to an extent and healing in general on firebrands has been nerfed. The major contributors are virtue of resolve traited with _Absolute Resolution_ (it's about 200/second , the tooltip is per 3 seconds) as well as aegis (~800ish every time it pops), shield of absorption , dodge roll (Selfless Daring ~1K heal , so essentially every 9s) , and full chain of mace autos (~ 1K heal). The looser your stack is the better the scrapper is in comparison because the mace auto chain is 180 radius and so is symbol of faith, mantra of lore, mantra of solace (one of my commander friends actually runs "Receive the Light").

[Dawdler.8521]

Well it also depends on the scrapper. You can be really lazy and just focus on cleansing. I'm personally bored to death of the support scrapper, when I run in pug zergs with it I usually even skip the medkit and just run gyro.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"PrinceValentine.9320" said:

> > @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > scrapper on average does 2-3x the healing of a fb in wvw. fb is brought to wvw for stab+boons, scrapper is brought for heal+cleanse+stealth.

> >

> > idk who tf told you firebrand can outheal scrapper, that's complete nonsense. Download arcdps and check for yourself

>

> A commander told me that because everyone was complaining that we didn't have enough support. I got offended a little because I was a FB and then I noticed that we didn't have any scrappers on the squad.

Keep in mind that to commanders all firebrands are basicly Jesus reborn and they would probably still argue thats its better to have the worst firebrand that instantly die and dont know how to pop stab over the best scrapper just on the basis of them being firebrands.

 

[Mil.3562]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"PrinceValentine.9320" said:

> > > @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > > scrapper on average does 2-3x the healing of a fb in wvw. fb is brought to wvw for stab+boons, scrapper is brought for heal+cleanse+stealth.

> > >

> > > idk who tf told you firebrand can outheal scrapper, that's complete nonsense. Download arcdps and check for yourself

> >

> > A commander told me that because everyone was complaining that we didn't have enough support. I got offended a little because I was a FB and then I noticed that we didn't have any scrappers on the squad.

> Keep in mind that to commanders all firebrands are basicly Jesus reborn and they would probably still argue thats its better to have the worst firebrand that instantly die and dont know how to pop stab over the best scrapper just on the basis of them being firebrands.

>

 

This is so true. I used to run healer Tempest or medkit Scrapper in WvW for years and very seldom i get a squad invite. And then there was this time i wanted to try out my newly created FB in wvw, and the moment I came across the first tag, almost instantly i got a squad invitation, it's like the tag has an auto-invite button for FB lol

[Dediggefedde.4961]

> @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> scrapper on average does 2-3x the healing of a fb in wvw. fb is brought to wvw for stab+boons, scrapper is brought for heal+cleanse+stealth.

 

I can verify this. I monitor and compare our WvW-guild healing output occassionally and in longer fights firebrands typically have 1/3 of the healing output. Also compared to other healers the total healing output is higher. Healing-tempest is pretty close, however, a heal-scrapper actually reduces healing-numbers from a tempest with its sustain-healing and regeneration spam.

However, with medkit-4 and -2 you also have burst heal, while layering Regeneration, EG-5, Mortar-5 and Medkit-1 is a couple thousands heal per second.

 

However, firebrands and healscrappers do not compete!

You need a firebrand in every group for stability, aegis resistance, defenses and some utilities.

You need healscrappers in every even fight just for the cleanse, because cripple and immobilize kills the zerg. Against decent enemies Firebrands can not sustain their group with healing enough, either, so the healing output is essential.

Especially since many Scrapper cleanse- and heal-skills don't apply boons you can overcleanse effectively, meaning you can support multiple groups. That's why you usually need only 1-2 scrappers per 15 people.

The current stealth-blast-meta with sneak gyro comes on top of that.

 

At the moment we actually overstack guards _and_ engineers in our gruild-squad since both can switch to viable dps-builds on demand without re-queuing.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

in terms of raw healing i wonder which is the best. i think its druid now but can't confirm. they def have the biggest direct heals at least, maybe not overall.

[Infusion.7149]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> in terms of raw healing i wonder which is the best. i think its **druid** now but can't confirm. they def have the biggest direct heals at least, maybe not overall.

 

Good luck with astral force and not giving away squad position with your pet.

[juno.1840]

> @"Dediggefedde.4961" said:

> Especially since many Scrapper cleanse- and heal-skills don't apply boons you can overcleanse effectively, meaning you can support multiple groups. That's why you usually need only 1-2 scrappers per 15 people.

 

Purity of Purpose turns those condis into boons (at least until ANet nerfs it, which I heard is in the works). That makes scrappers indirect boon-bots. There are almost always conditions going down. My favorite is chill (for alacrity) and burn (for aegis).

 

[mindcircus.1506]

> @"PrinceValentine.9320" said:

> I told the squad that scrappers are the best healers but my WvW commander said that Firebrands heal better but Scrappers have better condi cleanse. I main Firebrand and don't know much about Engis.

You don't play Scrapper OR Firebrand for the raw green numbers. You play Scrapper for condi cleanse and Firebrand for Boon Support.

If you want raw healing you want to be playing Tempest.

[mindcircus.1506]

> @"Dediggefedde.4961" said:

> > @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > scrapper on average does 2-3x the healing of a fb in wvw. fb is brought to wvw for stab+boons, scrapper is brought for heal+cleanse+stealth.

>

> I can verify this. I monitor and compare our WvW-guild healing output occassionally and in longer fights firebrands typically have 1/3 of the healing output. Also compared to other healers the total healing output is higher. Healing-tempest is pretty close, however, a heal-scrapper actually reduces healing-numbers from a tempest with its sustain-healing and regeneration spam.

Considering there is no way to accurately measure healing in groups in WvW (or anywhere else in this game), I wonder how you "monitor and compare".

 

[juno.1840]

@"mindcircus.1506" you can monitor your own output over a period of time in ARC and then play another toon and do the same.

 

[RisenHowl.2419]

> @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > @"Dediggefedde.4961" said:

> > > @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > > scrapper on average does 2-3x the healing of a fb in wvw. fb is brought to wvw for stab+boons, scrapper is brought for heal+cleanse+stealth.

> >

> > I can verify this. I monitor and compare our WvW-guild healing output occassionally and in longer fights firebrands typically have 1/3 of the healing output. Also compared to other healers the total healing output is higher. Healing-tempest is pretty close, however, a heal-scrapper actually reduces healing-numbers from a tempest with its sustain-healing and regeneration spam.

> Considering there is no way to accurately measure healing in groups in WvW (or anywhere else in this game), I wonder how you "monitor and compare".

>

 

You ask the healers in your guild to run arcdps with the self stats window open, then compare after each fight

[Mil.3562]

> @"juno.1840" said:

> > @"Dediggefedde.4961" said:

> > Especially since many Scrapper cleanse- and heal-skills don't apply boons you can overcleanse effectively, meaning you can support multiple groups. That's why you usually need only 1-2 scrappers per 15 people.

>

> Purity of Purpose turns those condis into boons (at least until ANet nerfs it, which I heard is in the works). That makes scrappers indirect boon-bots. There are almost always conditions going down. My favorite is chill (for alacrity) and burn (for aegis).

>

 

Is this true that ANet is going to nerf Purity of Purpose? Heard from what source? The only reason why healing Scrapper is still a thing in WvW is because of PoP. You nerf that to the ground (knowing ANet always throw out high handed nerfs) and with Tempest 10 allies buff taken away in WvW too, all we have left in WvW is FBs as support. The King of support will soon be God.

[ollbirtan.2915]

> @"Mil.3562" said:

> > @"juno.1840" said:

> > > @"Dediggefedde.4961" said:

> > > Especially since many Scrapper cleanse- and heal-skills don't apply boons you can overcleanse effectively, meaning you can support multiple groups. That's why you usually need only 1-2 scrappers per 15 people.

> >

> > Purity of Purpose turns those condis into boons (at least until ANet nerfs it, which I heard is in the works). That makes scrappers indirect boon-bots. There are almost always conditions going down. My favorite is chill (for alacrity) and burn (for aegis).

> >

>

> Is this true that ANet is going to nerf Purity of Purpose? Heard from what source? The only reason why healing Scrapper is still a thing in WvW is because of PoP. You nerf that to the ground (knowing ANet always throw out high handed nerfs) and with Tempest 10 allies buff taken away in WvW too, all we have left in WvW is FBs as support. The King of support will soon be God.

 

If they nerf it, it would be a rare sensible balance change in a while. PoP is OP - slap a cooldown on it or smth. This will make more room for tempests / shout wars that have good cleansing and heal, and offer utility on top of it.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"ollbirtan.2915" said:

> > @"Mil.3562" said:

> > > @"juno.1840" said:

> > > > @"Dediggefedde.4961" said:

> > > > Especially since many Scrapper cleanse- and heal-skills don't apply boons you can overcleanse effectively, meaning you can support multiple groups. That's why you usually need only 1-2 scrappers per 15 people.

> > >

> > > Purity of Purpose turns those condis into boons (at least until ANet nerfs it, which I heard is in the works). That makes scrappers indirect boon-bots. There are almost always conditions going down. My favorite is chill (for alacrity) and burn (for aegis).

> > >

> >

> > Is this true that ANet is going to nerf Purity of Purpose? Heard from what source? The only reason why healing Scrapper is still a thing in WvW is because of PoP. You nerf that to the ground (knowing ANet always throw out high handed nerfs) and with Tempest 10 allies buff taken away in WvW too, all we have left in WvW is FBs as support. The King of support will soon be God.

>

> If they nerf it, it would be a rare sensible balance change in a while. PoP is OP - slap a cooldown on it or smth. This will make more room for tempests / shout wars that have good cleansing and heal, and offer utility on top of it.

Of course they are going to nerf it. Because Purity Of Purpose.

 

Lets just ignore the fact that the *scrapper* is the meta. Not core (or holo).

[Strider.7849]

> @"Mil.3562" said:

> > @"juno.1840" said:

> > > @"Dediggefedde.4961" said:

> > > Especially since many Scrapper cleanse- and heal-skills don't apply boons you can overcleanse effectively, meaning you can support multiple groups. That's why you usually need only 1-2 scrappers per 15 people.

> >

> > Purity of Purpose turns those condis into boons (at least until ANet nerfs it, which I heard is in the works). That makes scrappers indirect boon-bots. There are almost always conditions going down. My favorite is chill (for alacrity) and burn (for aegis).

> >

>

> Is this true that ANet is going to nerf Purity of Purpose? Heard from what source? The only reason why healing Scrapper is still a thing in WvW is because of PoP. You nerf that to the ground (knowing ANet always throw out high handed nerfs) and with Tempest 10 allies buff taken away in WvW too, all we have left in WvW is FBs as support. The King of support will soon be God.

 

Yes. They have done this pre-hot where they made the game garbage and feel unfinished by breaking things (i.e. 300s CD's) and doing pointless, without direction, and thoughtless nerfs AROUND everything that's the real problem (I got banned for insinuating laziness before); about a year-ish before an expansion drops. Then just before the expansion is released (1-3 months) they start hard nerfing EVERYTHING that had actually been a problem - the issue is they don't actually implement positive changes that keep build diversity in this, they straight destroy all build options and even knock classes out of the meta (or from being used at all).

 

I can pretty much guarantee this will be nerfed into the ground before the new expac as it does need an ICD at least 1s - so not as many boons are output and condi builds will do some damage in zerging. However I predict they will either change the trait entirely or add an ICD like 10s a couple months before the new release, initially everything but a couple things (probably firebrand/renegade) will be inferior to the new releases.

[Samug.6512]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"ollbirtan.2915" said:

> > > @"Mil.3562" said:

> > > > @"juno.1840" said:

> > > > > @"Dediggefedde.4961" said:

> > > > > Especially since many Scrapper cleanse- and heal-skills don't apply boons you can overcleanse effectively, meaning you can support multiple groups. That's why you usually need only 1-2 scrappers per 15 people.

> > > >

> > > > Purity of Purpose turns those condis into boons (at least until ANet nerfs it, which I heard is in the works). That makes scrappers indirect boon-bots. There are almost always conditions going down. My favorite is chill (for alacrity) and burn (for aegis).

> > > >

> > >

> > > Is this true that ANet is going to nerf Purity of Purpose? Heard from what source? The only reason why healing Scrapper is still a thing in WvW is because of PoP. You nerf that to the ground (knowing ANet always throw out high handed nerfs) and with Tempest 10 allies buff taken away in WvW too, all we have left in WvW is FBs as support. The King of support will soon be God.

> >

> > If they nerf it, it would be a rare sensible balance change in a while. PoP is OP - slap a cooldown on it or smth. This will make more room for tempests / shout wars that have good cleansing and heal, and offer utility on top of it.

> Of course they are going to nerf it. Because Purity Of Purpose.

>

> Lets just ignore the fact that the *scrapper* is the meta. Not core (or holo).

 

If F5 on supply crate also gave AoE stability I'd be very happy to try core support instead of scrapper. Tools instead of Scrapper with Elixir B, maybe elixir R, or Mine for blasts, boonstrip&CC. Could even go HGH and Elixir C.

Instead we'r stuck with this weird bruiser spec that is supposed to deal damage to survive, that also happens to be one of the best supports in the game...

[Ghos.1326]

> @"Samug.6512" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"ollbirtan.2915" said:

> > > > @"Mil.3562" said:

> > > > > @"juno.1840" said:

> > > > > > @"Dediggefedde.4961" said:

> > > > > > Especially since many Scrapper cleanse- and heal-skills don't apply boons you can overcleanse effectively, meaning you can support multiple groups. That's why you usually need only 1-2 scrappers per 15 people.

> > > > >

> > > > > Purity of Purpose turns those condis into boons (at least until ANet nerfs it, which I heard is in the works). That makes scrappers indirect boon-bots. There are almost always conditions going down. My favorite is chill (for alacrity) and burn (for aegis).

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Is this true that ANet is going to nerf Purity of Purpose? Heard from what source? The only reason why healing Scrapper is still a thing in WvW is because of PoP. You nerf that to the ground (knowing ANet always throw out high handed nerfs) and with Tempest 10 allies buff taken away in WvW too, all we have left in WvW is FBs as support. The King of support will soon be God.

> > >

> > > If they nerf it, it would be a rare sensible balance change in a while. PoP is OP - slap a cooldown on it or smth. This will make more room for tempests / shout wars that have good cleansing and heal, and offer utility on top of it.

> > Of course they are going to nerf it. Because Purity Of Purpose.

> >

> > Lets just ignore the fact that the *scrapper* is the meta. Not core (or holo).

>

> If F5 on supply crate also gave AoE stability I'd be very happy to try core support instead of scrapper. Tools instead of Scrapper with Elixir B, maybe elixir R, or Mine for blasts, boonstrip&CC. Could even go HGH and Elixir C.

> Instead we'r stuck with this weird bruiser spec that is supposed to deal damage to survive, that also happens to be one of the best supports in the game...

 

Interesting idea. I, however, would be for getting rid of the 2012 "run over the medkits" idea with all of the things that does it (elite toolbelt from crate, Bunker Down trait in Inventions, Medkit skill 2) and just replace them with an effect for whoever is in the targeted area, with no need to collect anything off the ground. Or, simply lay a medkit on the ground, but it pulses some healing in an area in contrast to having to pick it up, that would be, imo, better than having to walk to the stupid medkits to pick them up.

[RisenHowl.2419]

If they add a cd to purity of purpose it'll amplify the lag with all the extra calculations, the smarter move is to replace it entirely.

[juno.1840]

> @"Mil.3562" said:

> > @"juno.1840" said:

> > > @"Dediggefedde.4961" said:

> > > Especially since many Scrapper cleanse- and heal-skills don't apply boons you can overcleanse effectively, meaning you can support multiple groups. That's why you usually need only 1-2 scrappers per 15 people.

> >

> > Purity of Purpose turns those condis into boons (at least until ANet nerfs it, which I heard is in the works). That makes scrappers indirect boon-bots. There are almost always conditions going down. My favorite is chill (for alacrity) and burn (for aegis).

> >

>

> Is this true that ANet is going to nerf Purity of Purpose? Heard from what source? The only reason why healing Scrapper is still a thing in WvW is because of PoP. You nerf that to the ground (knowing ANet always throw out high handed nerfs) and with Tempest 10 allies buff taken away in WvW too, all we have left in WvW is FBs as support. The King of support will soon be God.

 

Scrapper still brings group stealth, group superspeed, epic cleanses (even without conversion to boons), and very good heals, among other things. I doubt the loss of PoP will remove it from the meta, especially to support Tempest.

[cgMatt.5162]

Please don't nerf, this class keeps condi meta at bay and no one wants that.

[Jski.6180]

> @"cgMatt.5162" said:

> Please don't nerf, this class keeps condi meta at bay and no one wants that.

 

PoP realty needs to not have the strong boons as a conversion at the same time corruption should not have the strong condis as a chose too. Strong boons / condis should be class aimed not on a general effect.

 

Eng on its own with kits are able to keep condi meta at bay.