McPero.3287 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 DH obviously wasn't designed to be a roamer with stealth and superspeed. DH obviously needs to be nerfed because it is dumb, unfun to play against and unhealthy for new players. But I think nerf to insane damage would make it more skillful and more fun to play against than the nerf to the Trapper Rune. If you remove Trapper rune DH is just a sitting duck that will still farm people at lower rating and be memed as the worst spec in the game by high rated players. In that play after DH stealths you made the mistake of walking into the road that leads to mid point and that way you couldn't possibly see if he went left or right because line of sight. If you stood near where he stealthed you would have seen all 3 possible ways he could have gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McPero.3287 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 > @"TrOtskY.5927" said: > I actually agree that trapper rune stealth should be removed, because I think it will help expose just how bad a state guardian is actually in now > > Superspeed stealth of course is a strong mechanic and it seems odd that something so powerful would be based in rune choice rather than class and spec choice. > > Quite frankly playing anything other than condi DPS or a variant of condi DPS on guardian is straight up trolling. Guardian has always suffered more than any other class a severe lack of mobility and a total inability to kite away from chasing players. > > Delusional guard mains you love to see it. Yes Healbreaker is better than core support guardian, but playing core sup guardian is not trolling it won NA mAT vs a healbreaker. And healbreaker is likely to get nerfed and hello second best support in the game core guaridan. You can play core power dps or sagebrand in ranked at any level and its completely fine. Aeon played core bunker to sidenode in one of the serious AT games. But yes keep telling yourself guardian is in a bad state and that burn dh is just a cheese build. Trolling means you are playing things like staff ele or heal chronomancer. If you don't like identity of guardian which is being slow and not having ability to kite outside of jumping puzzles but have good damage and many boons then I don't understand why you are playing this class? It is a class made for beginners where you are strong without making mechanically demanding plays. Instead of using your weapon skill to evade enemy attack you just block it with aegis. I'm not saying it doesn't take skill to play guardian well but its mostly your positioning, big brain plays instead of mechanically play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted January 17, 2021 Author Share Posted January 17, 2021 > @"McPero.3287" said: > DH obviously wasn't designed to be a roamer with stealth and superspeed. DH obviously needs to be nerfed because it is dumb, unfun to play against and unhealthy for new players. But I think nerf to insane damage would make it more skillful and more fun to play against than the nerf to the Trapper Rune. If you remove Trapper rune DH is just a sitting duck that will still farm people at lower rating and be memed as the worst spec in the game by high rated players. > > In that play after DH stealths you made the mistake of walking into the road that leads to mid point and that way you couldn't possibly see if he went left or right because line of sight. If you stood near where he stealthed you would have seen all 3 possible ways he could have gone. Yup, kind of besides the fact of the matter though. I made a point that it is my opinion that I don't think Guardians should be thieving & mesmering like thieves & mesmers. End of story. I never claimed DH was OP. I never claimed Trap Rune was OP. I made a statement coming from a place of game design & mechanics in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McPero.3287 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"McPero.3287" said: > > DH obviously wasn't designed to be a roamer with stealth and superspeed. DH obviously needs to be nerfed because it is dumb, unfun to play against and unhealthy for new players. But I think nerf to insane damage would make it more skillful and more fun to play against than the nerf to the Trapper Rune. If you remove Trapper rune DH is just a sitting duck that will still farm people at lower rating and be memed as the worst spec in the game by high rated players. > > > > In that play after DH stealths you made the mistake of walking into the road that leads to mid point and that way you couldn't possibly see if he went left or right because line of sight. If you stood near where he stealthed you would have seen all 3 possible ways he could have gone. > > Yup, kind of besides the fact of the matter though. > > I made a point that it is my opinion that I don't think Guardians should be thieving & mesmering like thieves & mesmers. End of story. > > I never claimed DH was OP. I never claimed Trap Rune was OP. I made a statement coming from a place of game design & mechanics in general. I think they can have mobility stealth, just not with that many blocks, insane damage and cc you can't evade out of. I was mainly pointing out that your video is misleading as it showed as if DH somehow had 10+ seconds of invisibility or that superspeed would allow him to cover insane distance in 3 seconds. You just positioned in a way where he easily ran away while you stood afk on that road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted January 17, 2021 Author Share Posted January 17, 2021 > @"McPero.3287" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"McPero.3287" said: > > > DH obviously wasn't designed to be a roamer with stealth and superspeed. DH obviously needs to be nerfed because it is dumb, unfun to play against and unhealthy for new players. But I think nerf to insane damage would make it more skillful and more fun to play against than the nerf to the Trapper Rune. If you remove Trapper rune DH is just a sitting duck that will still farm people at lower rating and be memed as the worst spec in the game by high rated players. > > > > > > In that play after DH stealths you made the mistake of walking into the road that leads to mid point and that way you couldn't possibly see if he went left or right because line of sight. If you stood near where he stealthed you would have seen all 3 possible ways he could have gone. > > > > Yup, kind of besides the fact of the matter though. > > > > I made a point that it is my opinion that I don't think Guardians should be thieving & mesmering like thieves & mesmers. End of story. > > > > I never claimed DH was OP. I never claimed Trap Rune was OP. I made a statement coming from a place of game design & mechanics in general. > > I think they can have mobility stealth, just not with that many blocks, insane damage and cc you can't evade out of. I was mainly pointing out that your video is misleading as it showed as if DH somehow had 10+ seconds of invisibility or that superspeed would allow him to cover insane distance in 3 seconds. You just positioned in a way where he easily ran away while you stood afk on that road. But he did though. What do you guys not understand about the physics of this game? You know what, here you go, watch this demonstration so you can see the realities of this run that the DH made: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megametzler.5729 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 He still believes the DH was running JI... :lol: Dude, you got hit by Slow first. A trap. Not by JI's burning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrHome.1920 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > None of the elite specs break the core restrictions on classes that give them their flavour. There is no mobility king necro without rune of speed, there is no stealthy boi DH without rune of the trapper. It's these runes which completely eliminate weaknesses a class absolutely should have. However if these runes can acutally stay the way they are... then you are actually right, however only relating to necro and guardian. The rest of the classes do not get runesets which completely negate one of their core weakness. > Try speccing your thief into a team healer, try making a stealth elementalist etc... if these things are impossible, why is stealth guardian and zoom-zoom necro a thing? Either all or none of them should exist. I'd prefere the latter. That whole text makes no sense. Every class can pick speed rune and every class with traps can benefit from trapper rune. Fun fact: trevor plays a class that can use traps and that can benefit from trapper rune. So his class is the one that comes closer to thief than dh ever could, as it has more mobility than dh and traps on top. The only reason reaper has to pick speed rune is because not picking it is an instant loss to any other class that picks it. That rune hardcounters reaper. So if you say the rune is bad because reaper becomes too mobile with it: every other class becomes even more mobile with it! Reaper relies on chill to keep the target at range. Speed rune nullifies chill. Speaking about class weaknesses: What is the ranger class weakness? It has range, it has mobility, it has stealth, it has blocks and invulns, it has strong melee aoe, it has stability, it has acess to all important pvp boons in the game. Maybe we should actually add a weakness to ranger before we continue with dh and reaper at this point? The video shows a glass canon soulbeast - despite being unaware - surviving an extremely aggressive burst from a trapper dh and then even winning the duell (he would have killed the dh if he actually tried but he preferred to play it safe and disengage). All this video proves is that the poster doesn't like a specific mechanic, but not at all that this mechanic is overpowered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eugchriss.2046 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"McPero.3287" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"McPero.3287" said: > > > > DH obviously wasn't designed to be a roamer with stealth and superspeed. DH obviously needs to be nerfed because it is dumb, unfun to play against and unhealthy for new players. But I think nerf to insane damage would make it more skillful and more fun to play against than the nerf to the Trapper Rune. If you remove Trapper rune DH is just a sitting duck that will still farm people at lower rating and be memed as the worst spec in the game by high rated players. > > > > > > > > In that play after DH stealths you made the mistake of walking into the road that leads to mid point and that way you couldn't possibly see if he went left or right because line of sight. If you stood near where he stealthed you would have seen all 3 possible ways he could have gone. > > > > > > Yup, kind of besides the fact of the matter though. > > > > > > I made a point that it is my opinion that I don't think Guardians should be thieving & mesmering like thieves & mesmers. End of story. > > > > > > I never claimed DH was OP. I never claimed Trap Rune was OP. I made a statement coming from a place of game design & mechanics in general. > > > > I think they can have mobility stealth, just not with that many blocks, insane damage and cc you can't evade out of. I was mainly pointing out that your video is misleading as it showed as if DH somehow had 10+ seconds of invisibility or that superspeed would allow him to cover insane distance in 3 seconds. You just positioned in a way where he easily ran away while you stood afk on that road. > > But he did though. What do you guys not understand about the physics of this game? > > You know what, here you go, watch this demonstration so you can see the realities of this run that the DH made: > > > > > Also in this demo, you re out of combat so that's only +33% speed for superspeed. In combat it' s +100%. So the travel time falls back from 12secs to ~6secs. The only thing I've learned from this forum is the power of bias. Edit: In comparision, in 6 secs with initial 15 ini + shadow step, a thief travels 3900 distance. A little less than 4000 distance for a trapper rune DH. Do what you want with this info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > @"Crozame.4098" said: > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now. > > > > > > So uh... > > > > > > > > > > > > The thief is a **heavy bruiser** too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so *heavy* outside of its fashion style? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't make petty arguments. > > > > > > > > > > As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Guardians is a team fighter and can stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s without needing to leave. > > > > > > > > > > As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Thieves get killed easily and quickly when trying to stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What part of a Trapper-DH's kit allows it to stay in a 4v4 any better than a thief? > > > > > > > > We're talking about a build that has 0 defensive utilities, and which takes 0 sustain traits. No RF, no healing meditations, no healing symbols, no heal on aegis, no shouts, no stunbreak, no stab. There's the F3 skill on 50s cooldown........ but if one 3s block on 50s CD is enough to make a build a "heavy bruiser" then so is your GS soulbeast. > > > > > > The part where you don't actually have to be part of the teamfight, because on demand stealth. > > > > ppl just make all kinds of arguments to defend their own class, and use almost the same argument to say other classes are OP and need nerfs~ > > As the game ages you'd expect more and more people to multiclass... but you'd be wrong. The amount of people who think "you're a REDACTED main" is an argument is still disturbingly high. I comment on balance issues because I play all 9 classes, all meta and fotm builds(yes I practise even on builds I hate). > Also this is a special case for me, because a nerf/buff is not my objective here. If class identity is still a thing in this MMO, then guardians don't get to wield stealth. Even if some of us multi class many still have a prefered class, and that has the side effect of bias that can blind one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted January 17, 2021 Author Share Posted January 17, 2021 > @"KrHome.1920" said: > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > None of the elite specs break the core restrictions on classes that give them their flavour. There is no mobility king necro without rune of speed, there is no stealthy boi DH without rune of the trapper. It's these runes which completely eliminate weaknesses a class absolutely should have. However if these runes can acutally stay the way they are... then you are actually right, however only relating to necro and guardian. The rest of the classes do not get runesets which completely negate one of their core weakness. > > Try speccing your thief into a team healer, try making a stealth elementalist etc... if these things are impossible, why is stealth guardian and zoom-zoom necro a thing? Either all or none of them should exist. I'd prefere the latter. > That whole text makes no sense. His text is worded well and makes complete sense in every way. Enough of these weird denial of truth arguments. Someone points at a red car and says it's red, and you guys come back with "no it's green" and then you seriously act like you believe your own argument, when you well know that you're only saying it for the sake denying a 100% accurate statement. > > Every class can pick speed rune and every class with traps can benefit from trapper rune. Fun fact: trevor plays a class that can use traps and that can benefit from trapper runes. So his class is the one that comes closer to thief than dh ever could, as it has more mobility than dh and traps on top. This is not true at all. Rangers cannot benefit from the Trap Rune in the same way that DHs can. I'll explain why: 1. DHs have mechanisms like pulls and teleports to be able to make offensive use of the traps. They also have Maw which seals a person into the trap duration so they can't just leave the damage pit once it triggers. The DH also has double symbols and Sword of Justice to stack on the AoE burst. The DH also has front loaded defenses to be able to aggressively burst with the traps, to ensure the opponent is taking a lot more damage from the burst than the DH is taking. 2. The Ranger has no pulls, no teleports, no big CC pit to seal a person into its traps. Upon the traps just dealing bad damage in general, the Ranger also has little to no big AoE damage to stack onto its trap stack. The Ranger gets less than half of the burst potential with traps that a DH gets, and it has to utilize traps 100% defensively through baiting people into them, rather than being able to go offensive with them through use of pulls and teleports. This doesn't work out so well in middle to high tiers. Better players will obviously avoid the Ranger traps, and due to this they become rather useless when you're talking 1500+ play. 3. The largest role that Rangers play right now is to side node, which means they DO NOT want to be stealthing and bailing nodes often. And the trap burst potential on Ranger is not enough to warrant trying to utilize a trap burst build in the way that DHs do it, especially because they have no pulls or cc pits or ports make it practical. > > The only reason reaper has to pick speed rune is because not picking it is an instant loss to any other class that picks it. That rune hardcounters reaper. So if you say the rune is bad because reaper becomes too mobile with it: every other class becomes even more mobile with it! Reaper relies on chill to keep the target at range. Speed rune nullifies chill. You're trying to word around his point made, which are runes that eliminate a classes intended weakness, by simply taking a rune option.. Sure everyone can use Rune Of Speed but it's really unnecessary on most classes and wouldn't qualify as "removing their weaknesses". In fact, Rune Of Speed is is a bad option in general on every other class except Necro and maybe Renegade. In regards to Rune Of Trapper, sure everyone can use it, but only DHs & Rangers can really utilize it because they are the only classes left with traps. Rune Of Trapper sucks on Ranger for the aforementioned reasons, but Rune Of Trapper is dumb on DH because it is doing what Baszi has pointed out, eliminating its intended weakness. With the way Guardian/DH skills & traits work in synergy with Rune Of Trapper, it's dumb and it's too much. It's on par of the same kind of dumb as if there a rune that said "Gain 2s of invulnerability each time you use a trick or deception utility", allowing a Thief to completely eliminate its class weakness off of just a rune selection, so it can stay in a fight and brawl like a Warrior. > > Speaking about class weaknesses: > What is the ranger class weakness? It has range, it has mobility, it has stealth, it has blocks and invulns, it has strong melee aoe, it has stability, it has acess to all important pvp boons in the game. Maybe we should actually add a weakness to ranger before we continue with dh and reaper at this point? This is lol. It's like you think Core Power Marks, Condi Immob Druid, DPS Sic Em Soulbeast, and Boonbeast builds are all the same one build. Let me explain to you quite exactly the weaknesses of Ranger builds so there is no confusion here: * Core Power Marks - Gets countered by anything condi. It can't even win 1v1s against Condi Mirage, Condi Chronos, PD Condi Thieves, Good Weavers, Condi Druid Variants, Struggles vs Core Burn Guards if the Guard knows how to LOS and play wisely. Core Power Marks nowadays is only good vs. strictly other power based builds, and in that case it counters power based builds. * Condi Immob Druids - Gets countered by Spellbreakers, DPS Soulbeast variants, Holos who go tanky. Pretty much heavy power damage mixed with heavy CC counters Druids. * DPS Sic Em Soulbeasts - Gets countered real hard by Renegade, Weaver, Core Power Marks. Can be countered by Power/Condi hybrid Chronos & Mirages. * Boonbeast builds aren't even a thing right now. Its ability to generate a ton of boons has been so severely nerfed even before the mega nerf patch, that after the mega nerf patch when it was nerfed even further, Boonbeast builds disappeared man. So I dunno from what era you're remembering "Rangers having all boons" but that simply isn't true anymore in 2021. Ranger builds largely get: Fury & Prot. Then they have middle ground access to regeneration & quickness & Swiftness. Then they only get stability if they bring Strength of the Pack, and that duration of stab has been greatly nerfed. No one uses Dolyak anymore dude, it was nerfed too much. Core Ranger weakness in terms of job, is that it's garbage in team fights, absolute useless garbage in comparison to things like Renegade or DH or Necros ect ect when things become 2v2+. Druid is a bit better in team fights currently but its weakness is that it still sucks at team fights compared to other classes. Core & Druid are side node players, and they no longer the front the kind of mobility to realistically keep up with things like thieves, mesmers, or now DHs or even Reapers with Speed Rune. The also can't disengage things like Renegade or Heralds or anything with ports to stay on them. DPS Soulbeast is great as a team fight + and great in 1v1s, but it absolutely cannot handle 2v1 focus and it must run and disengage and hide like a Thief when focused. It also cannot actually stand and HOLD the node like a Core or Druid. It has to stealth often and play like a Thief to survive which means it loses nodes in the process of killing players to actually win the node. ^ I can assure you that this is an accurate assessment of currently played Ranger specs as of Jan 2021, but I'm sure you'll come back with some kind of a would-be argument as usual. > > The video shows a glass canon sooulbeast surviving an extremely aggressive burst from a trapper dh and then even winning the duell (he would have killed the dh if he actually tried but he preferred to play it safe.). All this video proves is that the poster doesn't like a specific mechanic, but not at all that this mechanic is overpowered. Dude I blocked the power damage with GS 4. A small stack of burning still dropped my health to 3%. In my opinion the video shows how inordinately jacked up burn damage is right now. And about saying "I won the engagement" yeah dude I'm a player with 20,000 games and 9 years under my belt. I'll say it again: **If a veteran player uses a meme build and beats a less experienced player who is on a meta, it does not mean that the meme build is good and it does not mean that the meta build isn't overperforming.** And you don't need analyze anything to prove that "the poster doesn't like a specific mechanic" because I have very literally stated this about 4 or 5x in posted responses, and now twice in twitch videos. It is not secret that I am speaking from a game design standpoint rather than a statement of something being OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted January 17, 2021 Author Share Posted January 17, 2021 > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > He still believes the DH was running JI... :lol: Dude, you got hit by Slow first. A trap. Not by JI's burning. Dude you can JI at something outside of the range that it would actually hit the target and still JI to close a gap. Example: JI is 1200 range, but I can JI at something that is 2000 range from me, and still JI towards it but be 800 range away from it when I land out of the JI. This is clearly how the DH in the video was crossing such distance without being identified on the mini map for ganks, and clearly how he got to the far node with only 3 trap duration stealth, by clipping through the mountain at the Necro with JI. If I fall asleep in a house with a toddler and we are the only ones in the house, if when I wake up and cookie are gone out of the cookie jar, I don't need a video recording to know that the toddler ate the cookies out of the cookie jar. You guys make these hairy arguments man, but you completely ignore obvious rationale and logic. It's hard to take seriously sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megametzler.5729 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > He still believes the DH was running JI... :lol: Dude, you got hit by Slow first. A trap. Not by JI's burning. > > Dude you can JI at something outside of the range that it would actually hit the target and still JI to close a gap. > > Example: JI is 1200 range, but I can JI at something that is 2000 range from me, and still JI towards it but be 800 range away from it when I land out of the JI. > > This is clearly how the DH in the video was crossing such distance without being identified on the mini map for ganks, and clearly how he got to the far node with only 3 trap duration stealth, by clipping through the mountain at the Necro with JI. > > If I fall asleep in a house with a toddler and we are the only ones in the house, if when I wake up and cookie are gone out of the cookie jar, I don't need a video recording to know that the toddler ate the cookies out of the cookie jar. > > You guys make these hairy arguments man, but you completely ignore obvious rationale and logic. It's hard to take seriously sometimes. Thank you for the absolutely new and very interesting fact. I am sure nobody knew this before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazsi.2734 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 > @"KrHome.1920" said: > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > None of the elite specs break the core restrictions on classes that give them their flavour. There is no mobility king necro without rune of speed, there is no stealthy boi DH without rune of the trapper. It's these runes which completely eliminate weaknesses a class absolutely should have. However if these runes can acutally stay the way they are... then you are actually right, however only relating to necro and guardian. The rest of the classes do not get runesets which completely negate one of their core weakness. > > Try speccing your thief into a team healer, try making a stealth elementalist etc... if these things are impossible, why is stealth guardian and zoom-zoom necro a thing? Either all or none of them should exist. I'd prefere the latter. > That whole text makes no sense. Oh... oh no. I've been destroyed. Such a throughout refutation. The discourse in 2021 looking strong already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crozame.4098 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > @"Crozame.4098" said: > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now. > > > > > > So uh... > > > > > > > > > > > > The thief is a **heavy bruiser** too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so *heavy* outside of its fashion style? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't make petty arguments. > > > > > > > > > > As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Guardians is a team fighter and can stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s without needing to leave. > > > > > > > > > > As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Thieves get killed easily and quickly when trying to stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What part of a Trapper-DH's kit allows it to stay in a 4v4 any better than a thief? > > > > > > > > We're talking about a build that has 0 defensive utilities, and which takes 0 sustain traits. No RF, no healing meditations, no healing symbols, no heal on aegis, no shouts, no stunbreak, no stab. There's the F3 skill on 50s cooldown........ but if one 3s block on 50s CD is enough to make a build a "heavy bruiser" then so is your GS soulbeast. > > > > > > The part where you don't actually have to be part of the teamfight, because on demand stealth. > > > > ppl just make all kinds of arguments to defend their own class, and use almost the same argument to say other classes are OP and need nerfs~ > > As the game ages you'd expect more and more people to multiclass... but you'd be wrong. The amount of people who think "you're a REDACTED main" is an argument is still disturbingly high. I comment on balance issues because I play all 9 classes, all meta and fotm builds(yes I practise even on builds I hate). > Also this is a special case for me, because a nerf/buff is not my objective here. If class identity is still a thing in this MMO, then guardians don't get to wield stealth. I was acutally adressing Ragnar's post~ but w/e~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 > @"Kuma.1503" said: > I recall you making a post once when the forum mob had come for ranger and everyone wanted it nerfed to the ground. It was before the patch that removed Knights and Cavalier from the game. > > The forums complained that Rangers were far too tanky, yet had glass levels of burst from range. It supposedly led to them being unkillable gods on a side node while still being able to 100-0 you in a Sic Em burst. > > You rightfully pointed out that, while these ranger builds might look alike to the untrained eye, each was built to accomplish different goals. A bunker ranger wasn't going to output as much pressure as a Sic Em sniper. A Sic Em sniper wasn't going to sustain as well as as a bunker ranger, yet the forums constantly complained as if rangers could accomplish it all with a single build. (Simplifying the points made for the sake of time.) > > What's happening here, is a reason why I always try to make it known from the get-go when I have a bias against a class. No one is immune to bias, and I think a similar mistake is being made where Trapper DH is being conflated with your average bunker guard. Mistaking the support guard on node for a DPS guard and being bewildered at it's ability to hode node 4v4 is evidence of that. When you expect to see a DPS sustaining at the level of a bunker, you will look for evidence to prove that to be true, even if what you see directly contradicts the point you try to prove. > > This isn't me throwing shade btw. Considering you were the player who inspired me to give Druid a shot in PvP (before immob/trapper builds became common). > But if a change is made to guard, I would like for the change to address problems which actually exist, and not problems which we only perceive to exist. The same goes for any class, whether it be thief, ranger, engi, ect. The forum does that with any build , it's always the same people who are always ready to list every single weaknesse of their favourite class like they'd all be combined into a simple build and they do the opposite with the profession they hate, listing all strengths like combined into a single build that apparently got no weaknesses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McPero.3287 Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"McPero.3287" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"McPero.3287" said: > > > > DH obviously wasn't designed to be a roamer with stealth and superspeed. DH obviously needs to be nerfed because it is dumb, unfun to play against and unhealthy for new players. But I think nerf to insane damage would make it more skillful and more fun to play against than the nerf to the Trapper Rune. If you remove Trapper rune DH is just a sitting duck that will still farm people at lower rating and be memed as the worst spec in the game by high rated players. > > > > > > > > In that play after DH stealths you made the mistake of walking into the road that leads to mid point and that way you couldn't possibly see if he went left or right because line of sight. If you stood near where he stealthed you would have seen all 3 possible ways he could have gone. > > > > > > Yup, kind of besides the fact of the matter though. > > > > > > I made a point that it is my opinion that I don't think Guardians should be thieving & mesmering like thieves & mesmers. End of story. > > > > > > I never claimed DH was OP. I never claimed Trap Rune was OP. I made a statement coming from a place of game design & mechanics in general. > > > > I think they can have mobility stealth, just not with that many blocks, insane damage and cc you can't evade out of. I was mainly pointing out that your video is misleading as it showed as if DH somehow had 10+ seconds of invisibility or that superspeed would allow him to cover insane distance in 3 seconds. You just positioned in a way where he easily ran away while you stood afk on that road. > > But he did though. What do you guys not understand about the physics of this game? > > You know what, here you go, watch this demonstration so you can see the realities of this run that the DH made: > > > > > No he didn't. In the first video he used some traps before he started running away from you so he couldn't possibly make 4000 range escape, you just positioned in a way where he needed only one trap to escape. You seem to be the one not understanding the concept of line of sight. Also moving 4000 range by using 4 utility slots seems kinda fair to me? What is DH supposed to do when he gets on the node and there is someone else there? Use his weapon skills lol? No stunbreaks also btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrOtskY.5927 Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 > @"McPero.3287" said: > > @"TrOtskY.5927" said: > > I actually agree that trapper rune stealth should be removed, because I think it will help expose just how bad a state guardian is actually in now > > > > Superspeed stealth of course is a strong mechanic and it seems odd that something so powerful would be based in rune choice rather than class and spec choice. > > > > Quite frankly playing anything other than condi DPS or a variant of condi DPS on guardian is straight up trolling. Guardian has always suffered more than any other class a severe lack of mobility and a total inability to kite away from chasing players. > > > > > > Delusional guard mains you love to see it. Yes Healbreaker is better than core support guardian, but playing core sup guardian is not trolling it won NA mAT vs a healbreaker. And healbreaker is likely to get nerfed and hello second best support in the game core guaridan. You can play core power dps or sagebrand in ranked at any level and its completely fine. Aeon played core bunker to sidenode in one of the serious AT games. But yes keep telling yourself guardian is in a bad state and that burn dh is just a cheese build. Trolling means you are playing things like staff ele or heal chronomancer. > > If you don't like identity of guardian which is being slow and not having ability to kite outside of jumping puzzles but have good damage and many boons then I don't understand why you are playing this class? It is a class made for beginners where you are strong without making mechanically demanding plays. Instead of using your weapon skill to evade enemy attack you just block it with aegis. I'm not saying it doesn't take skill to play guardian well but its mostly your positioning, big brain plays instead of mechanically play. There is also no way support guardian is better than any support class that can actually bring multiple forms of cc\stun. Support guard is not better than support ele. Do you really think playing guardian solo queue is the same as playing in an organised team in AT? Tell you what, why don't you go player power guardian or support core or whatever else build you think is good and show me when you get to platinum on it. Because at this point I am comparing my personal extensive experience with your tertiary anecdotal evidence and I know what I trust more, especially considering I can fairly consistently make mid plat if I try hard in solo q. Even worse you don't address any of my suggestions about nerfing permeating and removing the ridiculously OP maw>sword 2 combo that currently defines burn guard. Nothing delusional, no need to be hostile mate. Chill out. Learn to communicate without being a douche, trust me it will pay off in real life too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assyr.3296 Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > 1. Notice at start of video, there is no enemy Guardian anywhere near me on the mini map before he appears on me for a stealth gank. > 2. When he stealths to disengage me, I did later notice in the video that he had gone left and blipped on the map near my Necro at far. The only possible way he could have done this without the use of speedhack or telehack, is with JI to clip through the mountain side to the Necro. If Rune Of The Trapper can provide him that much superspeed and stealth to be able to do that legitimately without the use of hack programs, that's way way too much disengage/rotational power. That's DP Thief like rotational power when SB#5 was only 5 init. > 3. **Dragonhunters should not be able to gank, rotate, and disengage like a Thief. End of story.** > > 1. At 0:07 you can see the guardian engaging from the bottom right. It's difficult to see because your map covered his entry. **The guardian did not stealth gank.** The guardian uses 3 traps (Test of Faith, Procession of Blades and his ultimate Dragons Maw), one damaging utility (Sword of justice) and drops a symbol of blades to help stack the burns, and yet you survived. That's it man that's the trapper DH's one trick. At 0:13 the Guardian uses his heal trap to disengage for 3 seconds at which point you flew right by him. He was unable to finish you off with a fairly placed sword of justice, and a symbol of punishment (he weapon swapped to scepter/shield), and you were out of range of his scepter attacks. He uses an evade and shield 4 to stay alive while he transitions to the rock, and in all honestly if the guardians F2 heal/mobility wasn't up, he would have died when you used sic'em on him. You literally shit all over that Guardian. 2. Assuming 3/4 of the guardians traps were dropped at 0:09 and 1/4 dropped at 0:13 - 3/4 of the guardians traps were back up by the time he decides to disengage you at 0:39 (20, 24 and 24 second cooldowns) so the guardian had 9 seconds of superspeed time. You spotted him running away at 0:43 but failed to recognize it. Now it's difficult to say exactly when the Guardian was spotted on the map because his icon was covered by two others, but it's absolutely fair to say he was recognizable at 0:52 which is only 4 seconds after his superspeed should have ran out. The only possible way the guardian could have gotten that far was by playing the game exactly how it should be played. **I don't see any reason to suspect cheats involved.** I don't think it's too much disengage/rotational power because he literally had to use 3 of his cooldowns to do so, and without those cooldowns the trapper DH literally has no means of killing power besides his auto attack stacking burns on every 3rd hit which in all fairness won't amount to much on it's own. You could have chased him down very easily. 3. Why not? having played both DH and Thief lately I can absolutely say Dragon Hunters can't rotate and disengage like Thieves. **Trapper DH is literally a garbage build.** It has very bad sustainability and no stunbreaks. The only reason that build can survive at all is because of the trapper rune and DH's F2 allowing them to disengage and fly around. The only time this build is actually effective is in the middle of a team fight where they can drop traps on a cluster of people and actually get away with it because more often than not players are too pre occupied to realize what's going on, or when the trapper DH is left uncontested and just auto attack / SoJ and symbol spams. Try playing a DH above gold 2. Everyone rolls out of traps man. The only thing those guardians have going for them is their ability to deal damage and disengage. Most people deal with trapper DH's like they're a free kill which is exactly what that guardian was to you because let's be honest, you very easily pooped on that Guardian once you made it out of his burst alive. I think by removing rune of the trapper they will effectively kill Guardians. Their only real viable specs right now is support. Their core g/s builds aren't very competitive - second tier at it's best. They can go ahead and remove Rune of the Trapper sure - but in return I would like to see substantial changes to Guardian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted January 18, 2021 Author Share Posted January 18, 2021 > @"McPero.3287" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"McPero.3287" said: > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > @"McPero.3287" said: > > > > > DH obviously wasn't designed to be a roamer with stealth and superspeed. DH obviously needs to be nerfed because it is dumb, unfun to play against and unhealthy for new players. But I think nerf to insane damage would make it more skillful and more fun to play against than the nerf to the Trapper Rune. If you remove Trapper rune DH is just a sitting duck that will still farm people at lower rating and be memed as the worst spec in the game by high rated players. > > > > > > > > > > In that play after DH stealths you made the mistake of walking into the road that leads to mid point and that way you couldn't possibly see if he went left or right because line of sight. If you stood near where he stealthed you would have seen all 3 possible ways he could have gone. > > > > > > > > Yup, kind of besides the fact of the matter though. > > > > > > > > I made a point that it is my opinion that I don't think Guardians should be thieving & mesmering like thieves & mesmers. End of story. > > > > > > > > I never claimed DH was OP. I never claimed Trap Rune was OP. I made a statement coming from a place of game design & mechanics in general. > > > > > > I think they can have mobility stealth, just not with that many blocks, insane damage and cc you can't evade out of. I was mainly pointing out that your video is misleading as it showed as if DH somehow had 10+ seconds of invisibility or that superspeed would allow him to cover insane distance in 3 seconds. You just positioned in a way where he easily ran away while you stood afk on that road. > > > > But he did though. What do you guys not understand about the physics of this game? > > > > You know what, here you go, watch this demonstration so you can see the realities of this run that the DH made: > > > > > > > > > > > > No he didn't. In the first video he used some traps before he started running away from you so he couldn't possibly make 4000 range escape, you just positioned in a way where he needed only one trap to escape. You seem to be the one not understanding the concept of line of sight. Also moving 4000 range by using 4 utility slots seems kinda fair to me? What is DH supposed to do when he gets on the node and there is someone else there? Use his weapon skills lol? No stunbreaks also btw. Nothing you've said in this post makes any sense whatsoever. I've clearly demonstrated in the 2nd video what it requires to make that run while completely stealthed. He did not make that run with 1 trap. You're doing some denial of truth argument again like "No, apples look blue to me so I'll argue with you about them being red or green" garbage. Just stop man. The video shows enough clear visual footage to the left, the DH did not make the trap in 1 run. He was not revealed neither visually on the screen or with his icon, which would have appeared on the mini map around that corner if he had used only 1 trap. The video I made shows very clearly that he would need 3 traps to make it from his position to the side of the mountain and then use JI, or 4 traps to make it without JI. @"Assyr.3296" I think you did not see the 2nd video posted. Scroll up a bit. Also: 1. The DH is no where on the mini map or on the screen. The video very very clearly demonstrates this. I don't what is wrong with some of you guys. Some of these claims or arguments you point are out are as nonsensical and weird as if you had claimed to me that you saw 2 warriors in the video attacking me, or that the game I was streaming wasn't even GW2. Just please stop. Go watch the video again, there is no Guardian anywhere. So you explain to me where did he come from? If you want to argue this further, please give me a timestamp from the video of where you somehow spotted a Guardian either in the mini map or on the screen approaching me. 2. I blocked his burst, yes. But he did TOUCH me with a small stack of burn, and that small stack of burn was enough to bring me from 100% health down to 3% health. This point that DH mains keep making here is quite flip flopped. They act as if "oh the burst is ok because you blocked and survived it" when in reality the video shows a small stack of burn completely trash my health bar, just the small stack of burn, encompassing only about 10% of what his total burst value is worth if it hits directly. In my opinion this footage demonstrates how inordinately high the damage burst is, not that it is OK or underpowered, or w/e these DH mains are trying to encourage with this footage. 3. Yeah I trashed the Guardian because I'm a player with 20,000 games played in GW2, and he was a bad DH. If he had been a good player at all, he wouldn't have went in for a burst like that without using Focus 5 and having an F3 ready to go to support. In the video he uses neither, which is indication of his bad judgement. I'll say it to you as well: "If a strong player on a meme build beats an inexperienced player on a meta build, it does not mean that the meme build is strong and it does not mean that the meta build isn't overperforming. It means there is a large gap in skill level between the two players." And as much is indicated from his lack of use of Focus 5 and F3. 4. I couldn't have chased him down easily. For starters, I had no idea where he was going. Secondly, I'm on a glass cannon spec. I can't afford to go chasing in at something that is stealthed, that is dropping 1shot trap stacks all over the place. That's a dumb move. The only thing I can do is wait to know where he is if I want to play safe and not allow him an opportunity to turn around the 1v1 and 1shot me with a trap stack. 5. **Watch the 2nd video I posted. DHs are definitely ganking/rotating/disengaging like thieves.** 6. I don't need to play DH myself because I regularly play ATs daily, where I have teams stacked with 2x DHs + Supports, and in that case DHs become godly lords of the team fight, and their performance is quite easily read. I posted a video of that as well somewhere in this thread. Removing or altering Rune Of The Trapper will not kill Guardians, but it will curb this DH build. I don't care if they have 1s of stealth & super speed per trap, that's fine. 1s per would allow them the detarget value for team fights. But the way it is right now, it's too much stealth & super speed to where it's dumb and thief like. End of story. If DHs are so weak that they need this Rune to operate, then DH itself needs buffing. And in that case, the rune still needs to go. We don't need to be balancing the class DH around the rune. <- This is a serious fundamental fumble in the design error, to be balancing an entire class around 1 rune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megametzler.5729 Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > (...) > 5. **Watch the 2nd video I posted. DHs are definitely ganking/rotating/disengaging like thieves.** > (...) I did. 1. He did not use GS. He had Shield and Focus. 2. He did use Wings before, not for travelling, at 0:27 seconds. 3. He did not have Maw off CD yet (compare usage at 0:09 seconds and 40 seconds CD). 4. He wasted another trap at 0:31 seconds (Blades, due to CD of 20 seconds). 5. **Your pet saw him to the left!!!** 6. I actually didn't see any Test of Faith trap, instead SoJ (which you mention, I admit). So probably only 3 seconds of stealth to get out of your limited sight. Stop spreading misinformation. Then we can talk about actual problems with burn DH. But a few more points first: 7. Use the same spot you are trying to make a point for, not anywhere else. 8. Use the build the counterpart is/was using. 9. Wasting 4 traps and your full burst is not okay for disengaging?! Thieves literally need one single shadowstep for safety and can still return afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted January 18, 2021 Author Share Posted January 18, 2021 > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > (...) > > 5. **Watch the 2nd video I posted. DHs are definitely ganking/rotating/disengaging like thieves.** > > (...) > > I did. > > 1. He did not use GS. He had Shield and Focus. Everyone else noticed that I used the GS in the 2nd video simply as a demo with Wings to demonstrate 1400 range intervals. Obviously I was not encouraging the idea that the DH in video 1 was using GS or Wings for movement. I don't know what you're doing man. > 2. He did use Wings before, not for travelling, at 0:27 seconds. Why are you worried if he used Wings or not? If he did, this only demonstrates how much further he could go if he wanted to, while using mobility skills, than what I showed in my video, which only shows straight run speed with Super Speed lol. I don't understand what you're doing man. You're making arguments that actually support what I am saying. > 3. He did not have Maw off CD yet (compare usage at 0:09 seconds and 40 seconds CD). > 4. He wasted another trap at 0:31 seconds (Blades, due to CD of 20 seconds). And what is the point of this other than you explaining how far a DH can disengage with just 1 trap? Kind of seems like you are supporting what I am saying in this thread tbh. > 5. **Your pet saw him to the left!!!** Obviously the pet saw him go left. How many times do I have to explain this? No one is going to chase a stealthed Trap DH who is laying trap stacks all over the place with a glass cannon spec. If you claim that you would have, it would have been the DH running you off or downing you, rather than you forcing it to retreat. > 6. I actually didn't see any Test of Faith trap, instead SoJ (which you mention, I admit). So probably only 3 seconds of stealth to get out of your limited sight. So first people are claiming it can't disengage very far with 3 to 4 traps, but now you're saying it can do that with 1 trap? lol Come on man. I don't know what you're doing here. Now you're just further exasperating my point made about how strong its disengage ability is. > > Stop spreading misinformation. Then we can talk about actual problems with burn DH. But a few more points first: My demo videos that I post in this forum are notoriously spot on actually. I mean, when you're going in game and demonstrating actual physics & mechanics caught on video, there isn't a whole lot to argue with other than yourself and your own ability to accept what you're seeing. Up to you now man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megametzler.5729 Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > (...) Or, you know, you could try to copy what he did. But I guess you still don't want to accept that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McPero.3287 Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"McPero.3287" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"McPero.3287" said: > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > @"McPero.3287" said: > > > > > > DH obviously wasn't designed to be a roamer with stealth and superspeed. DH obviously needs to be nerfed because it is dumb, unfun to play against and unhealthy for new players. But I think nerf to insane damage would make it more skillful and more fun to play against than the nerf to the Trapper Rune. If you remove Trapper rune DH is just a sitting duck that will still farm people at lower rating and be memed as the worst spec in the game by high rated players. > > > > > > > > > > > > In that play after DH stealths you made the mistake of walking into the road that leads to mid point and that way you couldn't possibly see if he went left or right because line of sight. If you stood near where he stealthed you would have seen all 3 possible ways he could have gone. > > > > > > > > > > Yup, kind of besides the fact of the matter though. > > > > > > > > > > I made a point that it is my opinion that I don't think Guardians should be thieving & mesmering like thieves & mesmers. End of story. > > > > > > > > > > I never claimed DH was OP. I never claimed Trap Rune was OP. I made a statement coming from a place of game design & mechanics in general. > > > > > > > > I think they can have mobility stealth, just not with that many blocks, insane damage and cc you can't evade out of. I was mainly pointing out that your video is misleading as it showed as if DH somehow had 10+ seconds of invisibility or that superspeed would allow him to cover insane distance in 3 seconds. You just positioned in a way where he easily ran away while you stood afk on that road. > > > > > > But he did though. What do you guys not understand about the physics of this game? > > > > > > You know what, here you go, watch this demonstration so you can see the realities of this run that the DH made: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No he didn't. In the first video he used some traps before he started running away from you so he couldn't possibly make 4000 range escape, you just positioned in a way where he needed only one trap to escape. You seem to be the one not understanding the concept of line of sight. Also moving 4000 range by using 4 utility slots seems kinda fair to me? What is DH supposed to do when he gets on the node and there is someone else there? Use his weapon skills lol? No stunbreaks also btw. > > Nothing you've said in this post makes any sense whatsoever. I've clearly demonstrated in the 2nd video what it requires to make that run while completely stealthed. He did not make that run with 1 trap. You're doing some denial of truth argument again like "No, apples look blue to me so I'll argue with you about them being red or green" garbage. Just stop man. The video shows enough clear visual footage to the left, the DH did not make the trap in 1 run. He was not revealed neither visually on the screen or with his icon, which would have appeared on the mini map around that corner if he had used only 1 trap. The video I made shows very clearly that he would need 3 traps to make it from his position to the side of the mountain and then use JI, or 4 traps to make it without JI. > > @"Assyr.3296" I think you did not see the 2nd video posted. Scroll up a bit. > > Also: > > 1. The DH is no where on the mini map or on the screen. The video very very clearly demonstrates this. I don't what is wrong with some of you guys. Some of these claims or arguments you point are out are as nonsensical and weird as if you had claimed to me that you saw 2 warriors in the video attacking me, or that the game I was streaming wasn't even GW2. Just please stop. Go watch the video again, there is no Guardian anywhere. So you explain to me where did he come from? If you want to argue this further, please give me a timestamp from the video of where you somehow spotted a Guardian either in the mini map or on the screen approaching me. > 2. I blocked his burst, yes. But he did TOUCH me with a small stack of burn, and that small stack of burn was enough to bring me from 100% health down to 3% health. This point that DH mains keep making here is quite flip flopped. They act as if "oh the burst is ok because you blocked and survived it" when in reality the video shows a small stack of burn completely trash my health bar, just the small stack of burn, encompassing only about 10% of what his total burst value is worth if it hits directly. In my opinion this footage demonstrates how inordinately high the damage burst is, not that it is OK or underpowered, or w/e these DH mains are trying to encourage with this footage. > 3. Yeah I trashed the Guardian because I'm a player with 20,000 games played in GW2, and he was a bad DH. If he had been a good player at all, he wouldn't have went in for a burst like that without using Focus 5 and having an F3 ready to go to support. In the video he uses neither, which is indication of his bad judgement. I'll say it to you as well: "If a strong player on a meme build beats an inexperienced player on a meta build, it does not mean that the meme build is strong and it does not mean that the meta build isn't overperforming. It means there is a large gap in skill level between the two players." And as much is indicated from his lack of use of Focus 5 and F3. > 4. I couldn't have chased him down easily. For starters, I had no idea where he was going. Secondly, I'm on a glass cannon spec. I can't afford to go chasing in at something that is stealthed, that is dropping 1shot trap stacks all over the place. That's a dumb move. The only thing I can do is wait to know where he is if I want to play safe and not allow him an opportunity to turn around the 1v1 and 1shot me with a trap stack. > 5. **Watch the 2nd video I posted. DHs are definitely ganking/rotating/disengaging like thieves.** > 6. I don't need to play DH myself because I regularly play ATs daily, where I have teams stacked with 2x DHs + Supports, and in that case DHs become godly lords of the team fight, and their performance is quite easily read. I posted a video of that as well somewhere in this thread. > > Removing or altering Rune Of The Trapper will not kill Guardians, but it will curb this DH build. I don't care if they have 1s of stealth & super speed per trap, that's fine. 1s per would allow them the detarget value for team fights. But the way it is right now, it's too much stealth & super speed to where it's dumb and thief like. End of story. If DHs are so weak that they need this Rune to operate, then DH itself needs buffing. And in that case, the rune still needs to go. We don't need to be balancing the class DH around the rune. <- This is a serious fundamental fumble in the design error, to be balancing an entire class around 1 rune. So you are actually admitting you don't understand a core mechanic of how minimal works? If nobody on your team sees enemy they won't appear on the minimap. You were not in LoS of him because you stood there like an egg being confused crying about it. Now stop embarrassing yourself and end this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McPero.3287 Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 > @"TrOtskY.5927" said: > > @"McPero.3287" said: > > > @"TrOtskY.5927" said: > > > I actually agree that trapper rune stealth should be removed, because I think it will help expose just how bad a state guardian is actually in now > > > > > > Superspeed stealth of course is a strong mechanic and it seems odd that something so powerful would be based in rune choice rather than class and spec choice. > > > > > > Quite frankly playing anything other than condi DPS or a variant of condi DPS on guardian is straight up trolling. Guardian has always suffered more than any other class a severe lack of mobility and a total inability to kite away from chasing players. > > > > > > > > > > Delusional guard mains you love to see it. Yes Healbreaker is better than core support guardian, but playing core sup guardian is not trolling it won NA mAT vs a healbreaker. And healbreaker is likely to get nerfed and hello second best support in the game core guaridan. You can play core power dps or sagebrand in ranked at any level and its completely fine. Aeon played core bunker to sidenode in one of the serious AT games. But yes keep telling yourself guardian is in a bad state and that burn dh is just a cheese build. Trolling means you are playing things like staff ele or heal chronomancer. > > > > If you don't like identity of guardian which is being slow and not having ability to kite outside of jumping puzzles but have good damage and many boons then I don't understand why you are playing this class? It is a class made for beginners where you are strong without making mechanically demanding plays. Instead of using your weapon skill to evade enemy attack you just block it with aegis. I'm not saying it doesn't take skill to play guardian well but its mostly your positioning, big brain plays instead of mechanically play. > > There is also no way support guardian is better than any support class that can actually bring multiple forms of cc\stun. Support guard is not better than support ele. > > > Do you really think playing guardian solo queue is the same as playing in an organised team in AT? > > Tell you what, why don't you go player power guardian or support core or whatever else build you think is good and show me when you get to platinum on it. Because at this point I am comparing my personal extensive experience with your tertiary anecdotal evidence and I know what I trust more, especially considering I can fairly consistently make mid plat if I try hard in solo q. > > Even worse you don't address any of my suggestions about nerfing permeating and removing the ridiculously OP maw>sword 2 combo that currently defines burn guard. > > Nothing delusional, no need to be hostile mate. Chill out. Learn to communicate without being a kitten, trust me it will pay off in real life too. > First of i'm not gonna play most boring and lowest APM spec in the game to prove something. And to make it even better a support, good one. Core guard support sees more play than tempest in ATs right now, if you think otherways you aren't really following much. And core guard winning mAT is anecdotal story apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assyr.3296 Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 You're right that I didn't look at the second video. I don't have much time to watch through it right now so I took a quick look. I'll try to make this quick. > 1. The DH is no where on the mini map or on the screen. I just wanted to point out that you can see the DH running towards you on the minimap and in person (direct your eyes to the top of the cliff and follow that player) at 0:00, 0:04, 0:06 and at 0:08 when he engages **although why his icon is popping up as a elementalist before engagement, and as guardian after engagement is beyond me**. Maybe I'm blind and am missing something but that's what it looks like to me when I analyze the video. >2. I blocked his burst, yes. But he did TOUCH me with a small stack of burn, and that small stack of burn was enough to bring me from 100% health down to 3% health. I think you took about 13% (2259ish damage) of power or power/burn damage before your block was up, and you were left at 7% (1177) HP at your lowest before you recovered. 1 stack of burn starting at 0:09, 6 stacks by 0:12, 5 stacks at 0:14, 4 stacks at 0:15, and 3 stacks at 0:17 averaging at 4 (3.8) stacks of burning over 8 seconds and 6 stacks of vulnerability throughout the entire burn phase. That's what roughly 3000 peak(at 6 stacks) burn damage per second. The burn took out 80% of your HP over 8 seconds. Yeah 10% per second that's pretty good damage I agree **but** I have seen you sic'em Rapid Fire for 10k damage (2.5 seconds), Maul for 6.5k damage (.75 seconds) and hit with your auto attacks for roughly 1.8k. You are literally sic'em zephyr bursting people from 100% to 0% HP in your second video. **Your numbers are equally as busted.** >3. Yeah I trashed the Guardian because I'm a player with 20,000 games played in GW2, and he was a bad DH. If he had been a good player at all, he wouldn't have went in for a burst like that without using Focus 5 and having an F3 ready to go to support. That might be true, but let's be honest man you trashed the Guardian because trapper DH is a bad build. If he was a good trapper DH you still would have spanked him playing as sic'em. >4. I couldn't have chased him down easily. For starters, I had no idea where he was going. You had no idea because you missed the visual que. Your pet followed him to the left. I understand that it is difficult to discern the dragon hunters hidden movement in the moment, but the visual que was given. I'm skipping point #5 and #6 because I didn't fully watch the second video and I'm out of time. I'll get to that and offer an opinion later. A lot of people are complaining about guardians burn damage, but a lot of people are also really bad and are not paying attention to the potential that their classes are also putting out in terms of damage and condition removal. **I'm not saying you are one of those people** I actually think the opposite of you. I'm not against modifying or outright removing rune of the trapper, or even tweaking burn damage but if either of those things are to happen then I truly believe guardian needs a good competitive power alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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