NorthernRedStar.3054 Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 Literally the most braindead build in all WvW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 What are you playing today (assuming not a condi rev)? Because it will probably be described as literally the most braindead build in all of WvW by people who fight it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollbirtan.2915 Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 Because, reasons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subversiontwo.7501 Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > What are you playing today (assuming not a condi rev)? Because it will probably be described as literally the most braindead build in all of WvW by people who fight it. No need to be like that, it's easy to see where people's frustrations come from. It may not be a build that scales up, rocks the tiers of sPvP or dominates the peaks of the roaming scene in WvW, but it is a bullying beginner stomper or zergling ganker, it is very powerful at the skill floor and it has some abilities that likely were missed in the rebalance effort (with outstanding application to uptime rates). There are plenty of builds in the past that got nerfed simply because they were too punishing against beginner players or mismatched builds. The old Holorifle, for example, dominated no heights of PvP but it got slapped because it was very apt at taking out learning players in short order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 The only issue i tend to strugle from condi rev are the burn ticks when they burst hard from a condi burn ganking group, but that burn overall all classes wich is overperforming in instant burst, sometimes ic lots of player dying cause they keep moving dashing left right while torment keeps ticking and sometimes hard... cause they dont stop moving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartacus.3192 Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 And yet i haven't seen a single condi rev while roaming in NA T1 /T2 in months. its a constant plague of thieves and soulbeasts. So that makes me think the builds the thieves and soulbeasts are running could possibly be the current "braindead" flavor builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clownmug.8357 Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 Yeah, its effectiveness tends to be downplayed though because it's only relevant in roaming and builds with range and mobility usually counter it in 1v1. It really shines in smallscale fights where Runes of Tormenting can feed off of multiple distracted players... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrHome.1920 Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 Condi rev is not broken. It's the tormenting rune which gives it absurd sustain combined with trailblazer or dire gear. This rune buffs the rev's damage and at the same time heals for more than its 2 heals combined. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_Tormenting Remove this rune or rework the 6th bonus and condi rev becomes a a far less threat. Basically every condi rev in wvw uses this rune (that's why it costs 8 gold - it's more demanded than speed rune!). It's easy to spot as the regeneration it grants is almost on warrior regeneration levels - and warrior has regeneration as class mechanic. > @"Spartacus.3192" said: > And yet i haven't seen a single condi rev while roaming in NA T1 /T2 in months. > its a constant plague of thieves and soulbeasts. So that makes me think the builds the thieves and soulbeasts are running could possibly be the current "braindead" flavor builds. It's a smallscale plague that combined with a support wins every attrition fight with brainless button mashing. Put 10 torment on the target: 1700 healing. And a rev can apply a lot more than 10 torment. The scaling is absurd. 1v1 you can cut the effect of the rune by avoiding the torment application. But it's still pretty strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthernRedStar.3054 Posted February 1, 2021 Author Share Posted February 1, 2021 > @"KrHome.1920" said: > Condi rev is not broken. It's the tormenting rune which gives it absurd sustain combined with trailblazer or dire gear. This rune buffs the rev's damage and at the same time heals for more than its 2 heals combined. > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_Tormenting > > Remove this rune or rework the 6th bonus and condi rev becomes a a far less threat. Basically every condi rev in wvw uses this rune (that's why it costs 8 gold - it's more demanded than speed rune!). It's easy to spot as the regeneration it grants is almost on warrior regeneration levels - and warrior has regeneration as class mechanic. > > > @"Spartacus.3192" said: > > And yet i haven't seen a single condi rev while roaming in NA T1 /T2 in months. > > its a constant plague of thieves and soulbeasts. So that makes me think the builds the thieves and soulbeasts are running could possibly be the current "braindead" flavor builds. > It's a smallscale plague that combined with a support wins every attrition fight with brainless button mashing. Put 10 torment on the target: 1700 healing. And a rev can apply a lot more than 10 torment. The scaling is absurd. > > 1v1 you can cut the effect of the rune by avoiding the torment application. But it's still pretty strong. > > This. It's way too tanky for the amount of pressure it brings to the table, particularly in duos. Unless you can pull off consistent ranged pressure à la soulbeast, you're not killing them - even if you outskill the player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lodjur.1284 Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 Herald is the issue. Not condi rev. Not torment runes. Not trailblazer. Dragon heal and True Nature - Demon (and to a lesser degree the defensive weapons) are the issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shroud.2307 Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 > @"lodjur.1284" said: > Herald is the issue. > > Not condi rev. Not torment runes. Not trailblazer. > > Dragon heal and True Nature - Demon (and to a lesser degree the defensive weapons) are the issues. These are some of the biggest issues with it, agreed, but there are a few things you missed. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Abyssal_Chill https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invoking_Torment Abyssal Chill adds a lot more Torment than people give it credit for, not to mention it has no ICD and long duration. Invoking Torment is similarly problematic in that it has a long duration, good scaling, and is AOE on Legend swap. Someone suggested some where here on the forum that Infuse Light _(Glint heal)_ should cost more Energy to upkeep so it can't be camped. I think that would be a very good change and would obviously impact this build. Reducing the radii of True Nature - Demon and fixing it so that it can be Blinded and dodged _(it has been bugged for a long time and hits regardless unless you're out of range)_ would also help a ton. Remove Chill from Call to Anguish, and reduce the duration of Invoking Torment. All of those things combined would still leave the build viable without allowing it to be as oppressive as it currently is in small scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lodjur.1284 Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 > @"Shroud.2307" said: > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > Herald is the issue. > > > > Not condi rev. Not torment runes. Not trailblazer. > > > > Dragon heal and True Nature - Demon (and to a lesser degree the defensive weapons) are the issues. > > These are some of the biggest issues with it, agreed, but there are a few things you missed. > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Abyssal_Chill > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invoking_Torment > > Abyssal Chill adds a lot more Torment than people give it credit for, not to mention it has no ICD and long duration. Invoking Torment is similarly problematic in that it has a long duration, good scaling, and is AOE on Legend swap. Fair point. They're just slightly further down my "list". Invoke torment just has the transfer that's kinda annoying, otherwise it's just 1 stack. Don't think a nerf to actual invoke would really change anything. Abyssal Chill barely makes sense anyway, cause the only place it really matters is banish, and only when it's spammed. > Someone suggested some where here on the forum that Infuse Light _(Glint heal)_ should cost more Energy to upkeep so it can't be camped. I think that would be a very good change and would obviously impact this build. Reducing the radii of True Nature - Demon and fixing it so that it can be Blinded and dodged _(it has been bugged for a long time and hits regardless unless you're out of range)_ would also help a ton. Remove Chill from Call to Anguish, and reduce the duration of Invoking Torment. There's a lot of nerfs that could be done to glint heal. Why it is as strong as it is, is beyond me. Rev heals are supposed to be weaker than other heals (because you have 2). Infuse Light is arguably the best selfish heal in the entire game. > All of those things combined would still leave the build viable without allowing it to be as oppressive as it currently is in small scale. My personal favorite also include a rework of resistance, it is currently way too strong. Imo a large part of the reason why it's so common is because it is extremely hard to kill, because they play with multiple invulns (heal, staff and/or shield, resistance etc). That and the transfer is where I personally would like to see it nerfed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neukku.5713 Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 > @"lodjur.1284" said: > Herald is the issue. > > Not condi rev. Not torment runes. Not trailblazer. > > Dragon heal and True Nature - Demon (and to a lesser degree the defensive weapons) are the issues. How is herald the problem here? 1vs1 pretty much any class can fight him, and several builds even counter him, like blood reaper or spellbreaker. The real problem is in smallscale/teamfights where you can easily get 20+ stacks on torment on every transfer. That combined with torment rune gives you anything you really need. Solution is here. Add 1s cooldown on torment rune healing. Make mallyx true nature and other transfer to actually miss sometimes. They both have very high hit rate, about 100%, actually true nature cant even miss so.. I have no clue how they perform in pvp, this post is from wvw only player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrollingDemigod.3041 Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 > @"lodjur.1284" said: > Herald is the issue. > > Not condi rev. Not torment runes. Not trailblazer. > > Dragon heal and True Nature - Demon (and to a lesser degree the defensive weapons) are the issues. Dragon heal isn't that much of a problem in long run, but I do agree with True Nature - Demon being pepe design which need changes. Although I still believe that Trailblazer, Dire and many others sets need to be deleted, since they promote no effort builds with low risk-high reward gameplay. Torment runes and other runes need an icd that's for sure. Let's get rid of a root problems instead of just trimming branches of the most problematic stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrHome.1920 Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 It is tormenting rune. I have no issuses countering condi revs that dont use the rune - neither 1v1 and nor smallscale. It's also a no brainer that it is preferable to rework a rune that causes problems on one single class and damage type (and that is even sub par for other classes) in a way that it does not break this specific class anymore. Why on earth would you touch the class itself, if all you need to do to get things in line is doing a tweak on a rune? If you want to abuse this thread for infuse light nerf demands: you are missing the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asterix.9614 Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 To be honest, there was an influx of condi Herald for a bit, it seems to have moved to roaming power renegade (still rarer than ranger, T1 server). I think the problem is rune of tormenting. Anyway condi rev still has nothing on pew, pew ranger, you can remove condis easily (only reason I die to them is if they catch me unaware), they seem to be very weak against stealth, lack stability and ofc easy to run away from them as they are really only melee, so idk, I don't really have a problem with them ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asterix.9614 Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 > This. It's way too tanky for the amount of pressure it brings to the table, particularly in duos. Unless you can pull off consistent ranged pressure à la soulbeast, you're not killing them - even if you outskill the player. Their counters are soul beast and dead eye, but yea paired with a heal bot condi rev is unstoppable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asterix.9614 Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 > I have no clue how they perform in pvp, this post is from wvw only player. In pvp they are meh and lack mobility, also Mallyx elite is useless as no one really does a group fight. Demolisher amulet paired with speed rune renegade is king there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shroud.2307 Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 > @"KrHome.1920" said: > It is tormenting rune. I have no issuses countering condi revs that dont use the rune - neither 1v1 and nor smallscale. > > It's also a no brainer that it is preferable to rework a rune that causes problems on one single class and damage type (and that is even sub par for other classes) in a way that it does not break this specific class anymore. Why on earth would you touch the class itself, if all you need to do to get things in line is doing a tweak on a rune? > > If you want to abuse this thread for infuse light nerf demands: you are missing the point. Your experience doesn't dictate the balance of the game. Though it is telling how you come to your conclusions. Tormenting rune exacerbates the issue, it is not the source of the problem. Given everyone who uses these forums is in a constant state of resentful abandonment abhorring how their suggestions are never to be heard by ANet, I don't see why some like yourself find it so threatening to discuss things you disagree with. I think devs do stop by to review threads more often than people think, and I think it's worth it to be constructive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SexyMofo.8923 Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 Why is WvW allowed to exist in this state? Because the game mode is dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrHome.1920 Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 > @"Shroud.2307" said: > > @"KrHome.1920" said: > > It is tormenting rune. I have no issuses countering condi revs that dont use the rune - neither 1v1 and nor smallscale. > > > > It's also a no brainer that it is preferable to rework a rune that causes problems on one single class and damage type (and that is even sub par for other classes) in a way that it does not break this specific class anymore. Why on earth would you touch the class itself, if all you need to do to get things in line is doing a tweak on a rune? > > > > If you want to abuse this thread for infuse light nerf demands: you are missing the point. > > Your experience doesn't dictate the balance of the game. Neither does mine nor does yours. Pretty pointless introduction to a posting that is simply your opinion. We could bet what will be nerfed. I tell you tormenting rune will see a nerf. And this wouldn't be the first time my experience is spot on in terms of what's going to happen next in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh.4132 Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 > @"Neukku.5713" said: > > How is herald the problem here? Because no one ever complains about core rev or renegade, because they aren’t even comparable to the sustain herald has. The glint heal is a 100% hp reset button and can easily be a 20k+ heal in group fights and even zergs, not because it’s icon isn’t visible, but because there is always gonna be pulsing aoes and ticking condis. Heals like this are quite big carries, especially when all they need to do is change legends and have yet another biggish heal. That paired with true nature demon transferring 25 stacks of torment and then proccing torment runes is yet another hp reset button. They’re some extremely broken skills for people that are quick to defend herald. These issues are not seen on core or renegade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider.7849 Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 > @"asterix.9614" said: > > This. It's way too tanky for the amount of pressure it brings to the table, particularly in duos. Unless you can pull off consistent ranged pressure à la soulbeast, you're not killing them - even if you outskill the player. > Their counters are soul beast and dead eye, but yea paired with a heal bot condi rev is unstoppable. > Condi scourge can be 50/50 with them if they play aggressive. If they keep distance and abuse necros innate weak to cc with axe/mallyx leap while focusing more on transferring it is in favour of the condi Herald. I agree with you though that in the current state of the game where everything's been toned down, condi rev is overperforming - it feels like it was a prenerf January 2020 class that still exists in today's weaksauce forgiving environment. What held it back before was damage was high enough to overwhelm it's ridiculous level of resustain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lodjur.1284 Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > Herald is the issue. > > > > Not condi rev. Not torment runes. Not trailblazer. > > > > Dragon heal and True Nature - Demon (and to a lesser degree the defensive weapons) are the issues. > Dragon heal isn't that much of a problem in long run, but I do agree with True Nature - Demon being pepe design which need changes. Dragon heal is the strongest healing skill in the game. > Although I still believe that Trailblazer, Dire and many others sets need to be deleted, since they promote no effort builds with low risk-high reward gameplay. The opposite. Torment runes are specifically only good in high risk situations. If people can't outdmg them when you're in melee that's not the rune being broken. Id go as far as to say that there's barely any viable melee builds without a torment rune style effect for group fights. Such as impact savant, ps, ip, se etc. Because there has to be a reward for going melee, or there's no reason to not just play ranged. Trailblazer is needed for condi to be a thing and condi rev burst is predictable and slow and leaves the option to clear. True nature doesn't. > Torment runes and other runes need an icd that's for sure. > Let's get rid of a root problems instead of just trimming branches of the most problematic stuff. These things aren't even issues. Condi rev/ren can reasonably be focused down in group fights (and torment ja obviously mediocre in 1v1). The parts that make herald low risk aren't trailblazer, it isn't tormenting runes. It's having a 3 sec invuln with big upside for a heal together with multiple blocks and resistance. These are very mechanics, torment runes are one of the games few actual high risk high reward mechanics. > @"KrHome.1920" said: > It is tormenting rune. I have no issuses countering condi revs that dont use the rune - neither 1v1 and nor smallscale. If the rune does anything against you 1v1,you were already losing.... 1v1 it's probably not even the best option that condi rev has... > It's also a no brainer that it is preferable to rework a rune that causes problems on one single class and damage type (and that is even sub par for other classes) in a way that it does not break this specific class anymore. Why on earth would you touch the class itself, if all you need to do to get things in line is doing a tweak on a rune? Cause the rune is a lot more interesting and leads to healthy gameplay as opposed to the mess that is a bunch of invulns to press when you play poorly to never get punished? > If you want to abuse this thread for infuse light nerf demands: you are missing the point. Nah, we just know how the class works. Tell me though, why should infuse light be so many times better than even the second best healing skill? Rev gets 2 healing skills cause they're supposed to be worse than other healing skills. Compared Infuse Light to Defiant stance (same duration (now that the stance trait isn't popular), same cd, same casttime). Now compare Soothing Stone to Mending. (roughly same heal, 30 vs 16 sec cd (always traited). Now note that defiant stance is in group fights generally considered stronger than mending. Compare Mallyx heal to consume conditions or bear stance or whatever and it will look similar. Rev heals are supposed to be weak in comparison. It's hardly like it's difficult to guess that infuse light has always been beyond broken (and a carry skill) just by some easy comparisons. Now think then that a very very vast majority of condi revs pick up herald. A traitline that gives you exactly 3 things. A mediocre dmg skill A super broken transfer A hilariously broken heal The later 2 is exactly what makes heralds horrible to fight and what makes it easy mode. If herald got nuked, I'd reckon we'd not even see a fifth of the people playing it swapping to core or ren, because these are actually hard builds. Nerf staff/Shield and the numbers would be even lower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 Power creep bleed being the worst condi with no added effect is a very good example of the other condis getting massively power creeped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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