Possible Terrible Change Coming to Power Reverent 12/12

[Obtena.7952]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > I'm having a hard time seeing how spiking 5 Vuln on first hit in combat offers distinct opportunities or synergies with other traits ... what other traits does Rev have that trigger in combat that UNIQUELY take advantage of a 5 stack, 5 second Vuln spike that wouldn't get that advantage if it didn't spike like that? I could be convinced Anet wasn't just blowing smoke up our rear ends if there was a distinct opportunity to burst someone for the first 5 seconds in combat ...

> >

> > To be fair, these kinds of passive effects aren't all that interesting to begin with but let's not fool ourselves Anet ... we are talking about the FIRST fixed trait; no one is going to focus on changing a build based on such a thing ... or even a dozen of such things. I reserve further disappointment for release.

>

> Devastation line, which this trait is a part of, has two other traits that build on vunerability. 7% extra damage to targets with vulnerability and 67 heal and extra damage to targets with vulnerability. In additional, this is the only trait outside of sword aa that puts vulnerability.

>

> This is unquestionably a nerf if it goes through, since it limits vulnerability uptime on target, in favor of, nothing basically.

 

While I agree it's not the change I would want to see, there is so much Vuln flying around that the biggest impact here is on solo play. Still, I don't want solo play nerfed ... in fact, I think anything that nerfs solo play and has almost no change to group play is a rather bad direction Anet could take. This particular change appears rather ... stupid. I see no way it achieves either of the things Anet is saying it will offer us.

[Set.7461]

Tying the reapplication to elite skills is a bad decision. It pretty much favors upkeep elites like Mallyx/Glint and we don't know if it activates on the initial facet(like surging runes) or after chaotic release. Spending 40-100 energy(RoTGD PvP version - Energy Expulsion) to get 5 stacks of vuln? I agree. It's an overall nerf. We don't know the whole picture as I'm sure they plan on nerfing condi across all classes.

 

A simpler, more elegant solution would be tying the reset to legend swap. That would affect all legends equally. That or just leave it alone. As if rev needs any more nerfs.

[ArthurDent.9538]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > I'm having a hard time seeing how spiking 5 Vuln on first hit in combat offers distinct opportunities or synergies with other traits ... what other traits does Rev have that trigger in combat that UNIQUELY take advantage of a 5 stack, 5 second Vuln spike that wouldn't get that advantage if it didn't spike like that? I could be convinced Anet wasn't just blowing smoke up our rear ends if there was a distinct opportunity to burst someone for the first 5 seconds in combat ...

> > >

> > > To be fair, these kinds of passive effects aren't all that interesting to begin with but let's not fool ourselves Anet ... we are talking about the FIRST fixed trait; no one is going to focus on changing a build based on such a thing ... or even a dozen of such things. I reserve further disappointment for release.

> >

> > Devastation line, which this trait is a part of, has two other traits that build on vunerability. 7% extra damage to targets with vulnerability and 67 heal and extra damage to targets with vulnerability. In additional, this is the only trait outside of sword aa that puts vulnerability.

> >

> > This is unquestionably a nerf if it goes through, since it limits vulnerability uptime on target, in favor of, nothing basically.

>

> While I agree it's not the change I would want to see, there is so much Vuln flying around that the biggest impact here is on solo play. Still, I don't want solo play nerfed ... in fact, I think anything that nerfs solo play and has almost no change to group play is a rather bad direction Anet could take. This particular change appears rather ... stupid. I see no way it achieves either of the things Anet is saying it will offer us.

 

It is mostly a pvp nerf where cleanses make maintaining any vulnerability much less reliable.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

 

> Idk why you completely ignore the 50 energy requirement lol. At best Equilibrium's true effective cooldown is 20 seconds when you swap from Glint to Shiro. It almost never happens going Shiro to Glint, and whenever it does it takes properly kiting while conserving energy and knowing what skills take how much energy to make sure you're over 50 energy when you swap. That takes...at least some intelligent play and deserves to be rewarded. Equilibrium was the ultimate trait in rewarding good revenants and distinguishing them from worse ones, which is literally the best kind of game design.

 

You mean the passive regenerating energy? The one that all you have to do is auto attack a bit, stop using certain energy expensive skills as often? Yeah its so tricky. I mean you could have quite easily started in your secondary legend, jumped in got your damage done, legend swap instantly for all that lovely damage and sigil procs, now you are in your preferred legend with plenty of time to go to town on skills and still leave time for you to stay above 50% ready for it to come off cool down.

 

No. Its effective cool down is 10seconds. The 10seconds it takes for legends to come off cool down. You can stay in legends for longer if you wish but its cool down is 10seconds. That is like saying Elementlist atutnement swap is longer because some people stay in certain attunements longer than the cool downs.

 

 

 

 

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @"Buran.3796" said:

> > @"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:

>

> > Hell, if Anet want to make a skill for Revenant with a reasonable cool down that did what Equilibrium did. That would be fine. Go ahead. The issue is NO trait on any class (and unfortunately there are still too many...) that are just way too strong.

> >

>

>

> That's false. Thief has traits that daze you + interrupts you + roots you, and can be used from stealth. Mesmer has traits that interrupts you + dazes you + stuns you + puts over you a dozen of confusion stacks, and again can be used from stealth.

>

> But I'm ok with the change because makes harder to play a sub-class (Herald) which I like because how hard to play is. There's nothing special about using thieves, mesmers or necros.

 

I meant there are TOO many traits that are simply too strong, traits that carry bad players or are SO strong they define whole builds or classes because they are so important to take for what ever reason. The same goes for all the passive proc traits like chance on hit or crit, effect on dodge or weapon swap. You should be dodging/swapping weapon because you want to avoid damage or need the skills on the other weapon not because of the effects that are given because of you dodging or swapping weapon.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:

> > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

>

> > Idk why you completely ignore the 50 energy requirement lol. At best Equilibrium's true effective cooldown is 20 seconds when you swap from Glint to Shiro. It almost never happens going Shiro to Glint, and whenever it does it takes properly kiting while conserving energy and knowing what skills take how much energy to make sure you're over 50 energy when you swap. That takes...at least some intelligent play and deserves to be rewarded. Equilibrium was the ultimate trait in rewarding good revenants and distinguishing them from worse ones, which is literally the best kind of game design.

>

> You mean the passive regenerating energy? The one that all you have to do is auto attack a bit, stop using certain energy expensive skills as often? Yeah its so tricky. I mean you could have quite easily started in your secondary legend, jumped in got your damage done, legend swap instantly for all that lovely damage and sigil procs, now you are in your preferred legend with plenty of time to go to town on skills and still leave time for you to stay above 50% ready for it to come off cool down.

>

> No. Its effective cool down is 10seconds. The 10seconds it takes for legends to come off cool down. You can stay in legends for longer if you wish but its cool down is 10seconds. That is like saying Elementlist atutnement swap is longer because some people stay in certain attunements longer than the cool downs.

>

>

>

>

 

Yeah this is pointless. Clearly does not know how to play Equilibrium rev and just died a lot to it lol

 

Just jump in with your secondary legend (guessing you mean Shiro), like phase Traversal isn't 35 energy! Don't even worry about it, weapon skills don't need energy! You'll get Equilibrium by waiting around for your 50 energy to come back! I guess thieves never run out of initiative in your world too. Idk what enemies you fight that let you sit and auto while waiting for energy, but it's not representative of a competent enemy, stop acting like it is.

[Buran.3796]

> @"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:

 

> I meant there are TOO many traits that are simply too strong, traits that carry bad players or are SO strong they define whole builds or classes because they are so important to take for what ever reason. The same goes for all the passive proc traits like chance on hit or crit, effect on dodge or weapon swap. You should be dodging/swapping weapon because you want to avoid damage or need the skills on the other weapon not because of the effects that are given because of you dodging or swapping weapon.

 

But equilibriun wasn't a passive skill, because wasn't procced just swapping a legend. You had to be in combat, let the energy to hit the 50 units or above (in a class in which **any** skill outside auto attacks to cost energy) and then swap. So it has a COST OF OPPORTUNITY (you became more vulnerable/less powerfull the time you spent stacking energy waiting for a potential effect, and that waiting can go wrong). Do you understand the concept of cost of opportunity? Equilibriun wasn't neither a spammable effect or a random proc. Required both skill and patience.

 

The changes in Mutilate Defense are just plain stupid:

 

1) Vulnerability intrinsecally doesn't does damage. Is not the kind of condition which causes problems itself or the reason people moans about the "condi meta" in PvP.

2) The nerf hits mostly solo play/duels. Does literally nothing to prevent 25 stacks of vulnerability in team skirmishes/group play.

3) The nerf hits a sub class which is currently underused in PvP and roaming, and which is focused in power damage, not condi damage. The nerf literally goes against what the patch claims to try: to prevent burstines from condi builds. What does is to reduce the viability of the only competitive build the Herald has.

 

What they should have done instead is to replace the vulnerability proc for a condition cleanse proc or a 2s resistance proc with a 10s, 15s or 20s cooldown. But they known literally nothing about how to play PvP so is not a surprise the game mode is currently a wrecked train.

[XxsdgxX.8109]

> @"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:

> > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

>

> > Idk why you completely ignore the 50 energy requirement lol. At best Equilibrium's true effective cooldown is 20 seconds when you swap from Glint to Shiro. It almost never happens going Shiro to Glint, and whenever it does it takes properly kiting while conserving energy and knowing what skills take how much energy to make sure you're over 50 energy when you swap. That takes...at least some intelligent play and deserves to be rewarded. Equilibrium was the ultimate trait in rewarding good revenants and distinguishing them from worse ones, which is literally the best kind of game design.

>

> You mean the passive regenerating energy? The one that all you have to do is auto attack a bit, stop using certain energy expensive skills as often? Yeah its so tricky. I mean you could have quite easily started in your secondary legend, jumped in got your damage done, legend swap instantly for all that lovely damage and sigil procs, now you are in your preferred legend with plenty of time to go to town on skills and still leave time for you to stay above 50% ready for it to come off cool down.

>

> No. Its effective cool down is 10seconds. The 10seconds it takes for legends to come off cool down. You can stay in legends for longer if you wish but its cool down is 10seconds. That is like saying Elementlist atutnement swap is longer because some people stay in certain attunements longer than the cool downs.

>

>

>

>

 

Fucking what

You lost any credibility again, you make it seem like you only ever played PvP against people AFK. Or probably the only thing that you have ever done is theory-craft with some nice ideal scenarios.

[thebatman.6250]

People still think this trait is going to be a nerf to power herald? :thunking:

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> Yeah this is pointless. Clearly does not know how to play Equilibrium rev and just died a lot to it lol

>

> Just jump in with your secondary legend (guessing you mean Shiro), like phase Traversal isn't 35 energy! Don't even worry about it, weapon skills don't need energy! You'll get Equilibrium by waiting around for your 50 energy to come back! I guess thieves never run out of initiative in your world too. Idk what enemies you fight that let you sit and auto while waiting for energy, but it's not representative of a competent enemy, stop acting like it is.

 

Oh, your only option to attack someone was to teleport to them? I mean sure. Thats an option or you could use the perma swiftness and a dodge to get pretty much on top of most people either way would work. Though my view point again comes from WvW and Roaming at that, I tend to be a player that doesnt waste abilities to get into range if they dont even know you're about to attack them, so...

 

 

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @"XxsdgxX.8109" said:

> kitten what

> You lost any credibility again, you make it seem like you only ever played PvP against people AFK. Or probably the only thing that you have ever done is theory-craft with some nice ideal scenarios.

 

PvP in this game is trash, though WvW isnt much better these days to be fair. Roaming these days is pretty much dead :(

Given that i have nearly 7,000 hours into the game. With i would say a good 6,800 spent in WvW. Dont really need to theory craft ideal scenarios.

 

I do find it odd that this trait seemed like it was a little more than bonus bit of damage for some of you, like its the end of the world that this trait has been removed. How reliant were you all on this thing!?

 

 

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @"thebatman.6250" said:

> People still think this trait is going to be a nerf to power herald? :thunking:

 

Explain how less uptime on 7% damage and life steal is NOT a nerf.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:

> > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > Yeah this is pointless. Clearly does not know how to play Equilibrium rev and just died a lot to it lol

> >

> > Just jump in with your secondary legend (guessing you mean Shiro), like phase Traversal isn't 35 energy! Don't even worry about it, weapon skills don't need energy! You'll get Equilibrium by waiting around for your 50 energy to come back! I guess thieves never run out of initiative in your world too. Idk what enemies you fight that let you sit and auto while waiting for energy, but it's not representative of a competent enemy, stop acting like it is.

>

> Oh, your only option to attack someone was to teleport to them? I mean sure. Thats an option or you could use the perma swiftness and a dodge to get pretty much on top of most people either way would work. Though my view point again comes from WvW and Roaming at that, I tend to be a player that doesnt waste abilities to get into range if they dont even know you're about to attack them, so...

>

>

 

Doesn't matter, you were wrong from the very start when you said to start in Shiro. No one does that. Nice try. I don't even believe you play Revenant at all.

 

And yes I'm sure most people will let a power revenant, a melee build with no mobility outside of Phase Traversal, walk up to them without any resistance. /s

[Vulf.3098]

> @"Set.7461" said:

> Tying the reapplication to elite skills is a bad decision. It pretty much favors upkeep elites like Mallyx/Glint and we don't know if it activates on the initial facet(like surging runes) or after chaotic release. Spending 40-100 energy(RoTGD PvP version - Energy Expulsion) to get 5 stacks of vuln? I agree. It's an overall nerf. We don't know the whole picture as I'm sure they plan on nerfing condi across all classes.

>

> A simpler, more elegant solution would be tying the reset to legend swap. That would affect all legends equally. That or just leave it alone. As if rev needs any more nerfs.

 

Based off other similar traits it will only proc off Chaotic Release. I will assume it will have some sort of cooldown because if not Condi Renegade will be able to stack this very quickly through EtD since it will proc it off every tick while soulcleave will proc it off the initial cast of the ability.

 

The devs must be trolling at this point for a couple of reasons.

1 - Are they trying to make people play the already dead condi build in pvp after they nerf it? lol

2 - This will make Devastation 100000% Mandatory in raids depending how they nerf the other vuln traits which is also hilarious because they just buffed invocation to be useful if your comp was more condi oriented.

 

I just do not know anymore. Depending on what actually gets changed next Tuesday I might be quitting the game again.

[Flauvious.6195]

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > @"thebatman.6250" said:

> > People still think this trait is going to be a nerf to power herald? :thunking:

>

> Explain how less uptime on 7% damage and life steal is NOT a nerf.

 

So I agree that this change is a nerf, but you make it sound like without it our target will never have vulnerability or something and we lose out on these things. Sword auto applies vulnerability and we spend a lot of time autoing, your target never doesn't have it. Besides, in a group vuln is basically always at 25 with no one even trying since so many abilities have vulnerability just sort of tacked on.

[thebatman.6250]

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > @"thebatman.6250" said:

> > People still think this trait is going to be a nerf to power herald? :thunking:

>

> Explain how less uptime on 7% damage and life steal is NOT a nerf.

 

If you're not keeping at least 1 vuln stack on your target then I wouldn't say the problem lies in the trait :^)

[narcx.3570]

> @"Buran.3796" said:

> > @"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:

>

> > I meant there are TOO many traits that are simply too strong, traits that carry bad players or are SO strong they define whole builds or classes because they are so important to take for what ever reason. The same goes for all the passive proc traits like chance on hit or crit, effect on dodge or weapon swap. You should be dodging/swapping weapon because you want to avoid damage or need the skills on the other weapon not because of the effects that are given because of you dodging or swapping weapon.

>

> But equilibriun wasn't a passive skill, because wasn't procced just swapping a legend. You had to be in combat, let the energy to hit the 50 units or above (in a class in which **any** skill outside auto attacks to cost energy) and then swap. So it has a COST OF OPPORTUNITY (you became more vulnerable/less powerfull the time you spent stacking energy waiting for a potential effect, and that waiting can go wrong). Do you understand the concept of cost of opportunity? Equilibriun wasn't neither a spammable effect or a random proc. Required both skill and patience.

>

 

Unleash Signet of Nature, Unleash Signet of Strength, Legend Swap... So much patience.

 

I do give you that it took skill to not die after blowing your legend swap in an opening combo that left you stuck in Shiro, low on energy for a full ten secs. But whateves, you can do so much damage +1'ing with IR now that you don't even need "patience..." Which is probably a good thing, because being in a fight for any extended amount of time is pretty suicidal with all the mirages/scourges/fb's puking condi's at you while giggling about your lack of cleanse.

[Clownmug.8357]

I'm just wondering how nobody on the balance team questioned this at all. Was everyone having a bad day like the time they came up with Disrupter's Sustainment?

[Buran.3796]

> @"narcx.3570" said:

 

> Unleash Signet of Nature, Unleash Signet of Strength, Legend Swap... So much patience.

>

I'm not surprised about the state of the class taking in consideration the amount of people defending the cumuluative nerfs in all the spectrum of skills and traits of the Revenant while also tolerating the unfinished design (no alternative underwater weapons, 4 legends with no aquatic skills, bugs like UA still clipping you inside the geometry of the game since two years ago...).

 

Frankly, the class fills exactly the status that deserves.

 

[Ayrilana.1396]

Well there goes a good chunk of my DPS is they don’t make up for it elsewhere.

[otto.5684]

> @"Clownmug.8357" said:

> I'm just wondering how nobody on the balance team questioned this at all. Was everyone having a bad day like the time they came up with Disrupter's Sustainment?

 

I seriously do not think Anet test rev stuff throughly. I main guardian and things are million times more refined on guardian over rev.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I think they're making this change because getting 5 vulnerability with this trait was pretty hard in PVP. At 33% chance on crit, even at 100 crit chance it would take 15 attacks to get 5 vuln. Most of the time, by the 15th hit the enemy was already dead. For short term 1 on 1 fights this is actually a buff.

 

Everywhere else is a heavy nerf. Group fights, PVE fights, long term 1 on 1 fights... This really tells you where their balance priorities are.

[Nor.2057]

For someone that was planning a Power Shiro Herald double sword build what build might be recommended (general pve - t2 fractals -bastion of penitent raid)

[Miles Smiles.8951]

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> Stupid change, Anet if you don't know what you're doing with revenant just stop touching it. They heard "too many conditions", so they went to a POWER traitline for a POWER non meta class with no condition clear and nerfed kitten vulnerability application (and life steal and dmg as a result of 2 other devastation minors Targeted Destruction and Focused Siphoning), like oh ok that's totally what we all meant by condition spam: too much vulnerability! Not weakness, torment, confusion, burns no no friends it was all power revenant vulnerability that had to be nerfed! So essentially power revenant is only allowed to get utility out of Targeted Destruction and Focused Siphoning for the first 5 seconds of a fight.

>

> They were even so proud of it as to use it as an example of their condition "fix". Even when conditions get nerfed power revenant gets kitten in the kitten.

>

> What a joke.

 

The worst thing is they were actually trying to buff it.

[Miles Smiles.8951]

> @"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:

> > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > If this change goes through, they have demonstrated perfectly that they have no idea how this class works and have never read the tooltips. As if removing Equilibrium wasn't horrible decision making, it just continues on and on. Straight up foolish, I hope your company hurts in 2018. The lack of attention in this game is so sad.

>

> Removing Equilibrium was the RIGHT choice. Did it hurt power builds? yes. Was it needed? yes In WvW the trait was flat out broken being able to hit 8k+ just for swapping legend with no tell or cast time or anything. It needed to be changed. Maybe they could have kept it but nerfed the WvW and adding like a 1second delay or something so that people see they have legend swapped and know they big damage is coming sothey have a chance to avoid it would have been a good idea as well (the replace trait does suck...)

 

Then they need to remove/rework all the skills with no tells or cast times. Why did they start with the revenant? And why did they stop after it?