Mirage isn't as OP as you think.

[Cynz.9437]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> >I really want to see a video of dev explaining how to deal with good mirage.

> For this we first need to find this good mirage everyone is talking about.

 

Frosty?

[viquing.8254]

Frosty win every 1c1 versus other professions ? (I didn't seen him recently.)

[Daniel Handler.4816]

> @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > @"choovanski.5462"

> > >

> > > Actually spellbreaker being able to hold points and it’s prowess was not okay. Overly strong sustain with damage in conquest will always be a problem.

> > >

> > > However you misunderstand me. I’m totally up for changes, but we need to change what our standards for change is based on.

> > >

> > > If 5v5 conquest is how we are balancing then a duelist who can’t reliably stall 1v3 isn’t going to be as OP especially in ranked where most you can do is duo.

> > >

> > > I’d absolutely be fine with 1v1 - 3v3 balance, but that clearly is not a design choice the game is going, and compared to other metas, mirage fills a role that many others have had and was deemed acceptable.

> >

> > This is a good point. However, this goes beyond conquest.

> >

> > The profession was designed to be an excellent duelist that suffers as x of 1vx increases (or becomes more powerful) because of the strengths/limitations of their class mechanic.

> >

> > ANET balances for WVW and PVE first, modes where illusion destruction is much more common. They made elite specs that can sustain illusions through resets/retargeting and can provide group support and/or more sources of player-based dps. This is where the problem starts. Often tools that make a Mesmer more capable in aoe situations can be reappropriated for 1v1 to augment burst.

> >

> > That's why this goes beyond conquest. People would rather Mesmer be support in every other game mode than be overtuned in a single aspect of 1.5 modes (pvp, and roaming WvW).

> >

> > They should just remove ellusive mind and replace it with abused mind- grant 5 seconds of alacrity and quickness on dodge to nearby allies.

>

> Anet does NOT balance for WvW and have stated on multiple occasions that it can't be balanced. [snip]

 

Read all the archived patch notes for this game. If you don't have time, use Google to search through them for "WvW" and exclude paragraphs that also mention"PvP", you will find more than a handful of changes. If you have more time you can also tally the many alterations that asymmetrically influence WvW but don't explicitly mention it (for instance the signet of inspiration nerf).

 

As for the second half of your statement do you have a source for any of this multiple occasions? It seems an odd thing for them to say since they certainly try to balance for it often.

[Jinks.2057]

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > > @"choovanski.5462"

> > > >

> > > > Actually spellbreaker being able to hold points and it’s prowess was not okay. Overly strong sustain with damage in conquest will always be a problem.

> > > >

> > > > However you misunderstand me. I’m totally up for changes, but we need to change what our standards for change is based on.

> > > >

> > > > If 5v5 conquest is how we are balancing then a duelist who can’t reliably stall 1v3 isn’t going to be as OP especially in ranked where most you can do is duo.

> > > >

> > > > I’d absolutely be fine with 1v1 - 3v3 balance, but that clearly is not a design choice the game is going, and compared to other metas, mirage fills a role that many others have had and was deemed acceptable.

> > >

> > > This is a good point. However, this goes beyond conquest.

> > >

> > > The profession was designed to be an excellent duelist that suffers as x of 1vx increases (or becomes more powerful) because of the strengths/limitations of their class mechanic.

> > >

> > > ANET balances for WVW and PVE first, modes where illusion destruction is much more common. They made elite specs that can sustain illusions through resets/retargeting and can provide group support and/or more sources of player-based dps. This is where the problem starts. Often tools that make a Mesmer more capable in aoe situations can be reappropriated for 1v1 to augment burst.

> > >

> > > That's why this goes beyond conquest. People would rather Mesmer be support in every other game mode than be overtuned in a single aspect of 1.5 modes (pvp, and roaming WvW).

> > >

> > > They should just remove ellusive mind and replace it with abused mind- grant 5 seconds of alacrity and quickness on dodge to nearby allies.

> >

> > Anet does NOT balance for WvW and have stated on multiple occasions that it can't be balanced. [snip]

>

> Read all the archived patch notes for this game. If you don't have time, use Google to search through them for "WvW" and exclude paragraphs that also mention"PvP", you will find more than a handful of changes. If you have more time you can also tally the many alterations that asymmetrically influence WvW but don't explicitly mention it (for instance the signet of inspiration nerf).

>

> As for the second half of your statement do you have a source for any of this multiple occasions? It seems an odd thing for them to say since they certainly try to balance for it often.

 

WvW used PvE balance which was balanced for PvE. Big culprit were daamage reductions in PvP that didn't go over to WvW etc.

 

Also the amount of changes made based solely on WvW is small

[HeadCrowned.6834]

The problem is, is that the recent patch theme was about making condi's less bursty but more DoT as they should be. However they didnt touch confusion nor did they nerf anything on mesmer. I could live with bursty mesmers, but they also have invis, blinks, invulns, reflects, portal, etc. Its a bit over the top imo.

[Furious.2867]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> >I really want to see a video of dev explaining how to deal with good mirage.

> For this we first need to find this good mirage everyone is talking about.

 

Frostball

Wasn't he on naked Mirage during ATs last night?

 

[Caro.2730]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> For this we first need to find this good mirage everyone is talking about.

 

Well, people here say I'm bad for not using Elusive Mind, but still I kill mirages using it, so if I'm bad and I'm killing EM Mirages (All the time), then they are even worse, so basically Mirage killing everyone is just a legend or everyone of you are simply just bad.

Also if I'm bad, because I don't use EM and I inflict 30 stacks of confusion and some people survive, confusion is not the problem? xD Of course 30 seems a little too much, but only without EM and that's a bad play from what you say.

The real question is - Do all these tears are even for a reason or just for the sake of QQ about something?

Maybe a good mirage wins every 1v1, but all the same a good weaver wins every match for his team. There is one between 30-40 on leaderboards. I met him. He can kill a warrior or scourge in matter of seconds, he also kills Mirages, especially me. Does this mean Weaver should be nerfed? No, because that amount of skill is rare. Usually fresh air weavers die, when you look at them. Ignorance is not the way to go.

[Rodzynald.5897]

> @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > @"Caro.2730" said:

> > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > you are losing b/c you aren't good enough to win

> > >

> > > the people beating you aren't winning because they are good it's because you are not good enough

> > >

> > > 1v1 vs a mirage isn't about how skilled both opponents are but how competent the mirage player is. The non mirage players skill is irrelevant in this situation

> >

> > I don't think that's what I said. I win a lot, but I also lose a lot. I basically meant, that it all depends on the skill of the players and not the class. Of course I'll easily win against worse players and lose harder against better ones. I don't think that a good Mirage can defeat any good player playing any other profession. Someone is just worse and someone is better, always.

> >

> > > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > Mirage is easily one of the top, if not the best, duelist in the game right now when played well. It has a few things that **need** to be toned down. It has some things that **ARE** overpowered.

> >

> > You realize that someone has to be one of the top? It's not that I fully disagree with you, it's just if Mirage won't be one of the top, other classes will. It's like people can't handle a mesmer being actually good in something.

> >

> > > @"takatsu.9416" said:

> > > Of course there are things that need to be tuned for all classes but none need a complete 180

> >

> > I fully agree and yet people demand removing EM, removing clones, removing detargeting. You may remove mirage as a whole with it.

> >

> >

>

> IDC what you said. I'm telling you how it is. You are losing b/c you aren't good enough. A mirage has the advantage vs everything. It's not even close.

>

> So for you to lose on a mirage is about how well you play not your opponent. Your opponent can play lights out vs you and still lose if you are semi-competent.

>

> That's the reality of mirage atm.

 

Harsh truth but truth. Mirage plays the song and you have to dance to it. You won't escape, you can only hope for bunkering a point and if you manage to kill a mirage, it was just a bad mirage that let himself get caught.

However, the only funny thing I love to do to mirages is doing the core hammer combo while they are traversing between points. There is no way for them to survive that if all the burst goes down in less than half a second. But other than that it is challenging to get to them, especially with lots of dazes and blinds, damage with disruption at the same time is kind of too much, not to mention the mobility and the aspect of being untouchable.

[Furious.2867]

Here's a good starting baseline and of course there are rare exceptions but:

If you're a decent Mirage, you should only lose 1v1s to Mirages better than you. Other classes are writhing with envy with your wealth of evades.

 

[Caro.2730]

It's not like we got additional dodges. Maybe the Rune of the Adventurer and Sigil of Energy are the problem?

[zealex.9410]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> Hi, mesmer main here

>

> Mirage has some sore points that desperately need to be addressed.

>

> 1 - EM is ridiculously powerful. Assuming no vigor at all, it averages out to 1 stunbreak and 1 condi cleansed every 10 seconds, throughout the entire match. Assuming perm vigor (which is possible with dueling), it gets buffed to 1 stunbreak and condi cleanse every 5 seconds on average, for the entire match. Compare that with an actual stunbreak skills. With the sole exception of sands through glass, every stunbreak skill that mesmer has is at least 30s CD untraited. So, even if we pretend the condi cleanse doesn't exist, EM gives us a minimum of 2.5-3 times as many stunbreaks as an actual stunbreak skill on our bar throughout an entire match. That's beyond absurd in general, even more so for a trait. Honestly, if you can't see how broken this trait is then I doubt how objectively you can look at mesmer

>

> 2 - More contentious among mesmers I've talked to in game, but Sword ambush is pure daze spam with IH. Remove clone summon, remove daze from clone's version of the skill and it would be great. But as it is now, its a free daze on opponents whenever you dodge if you are running IH, but you don't even have to interrupt your other attacks to get it off because the clones will apply the daze. That's a problem. To daze someone, especially when you factor in the on interrupt traits mesmer can take if they want to, having a clone be able to daze is stupid. Phantasm would already be pushing it, but a clone is stupid.

>

> 3 - IH itself. First off, it makes balancing ambush attacks impossible. But more importantly, it leads to massive condi spam when you are running a condi build and IH. It definitely needs to be addressed.

>

> Mirage is easily one of the top, if not the best, duelist in the game right now when played well. It has a few things that **need** to be toned down. It has some things that **ARE** overpowered.

 

I agree with most of them but i dont see them removing Ih simply because its what the mirage is based around. I would prob give the clone thrust a lesser version of the original by prob removing the interupt but keeping the charge but idk that might be abit too much and push pistol entirely out of viability.

[Pimsley.3681]

Hi Caro - When you enter the match as a Mirage, you should carry yourself with unshakable confidence because you are running the absolute best dueling class in pvp right now. You may not win against former ESL guys but vs all other classes, you have the upper hand. Go ahead and bring hell to the side node battles because you are likely to win 1v1 unless you’re going against a better Mirage.

 

Also take advantage of the tips Mesmer mains have shared on this thread.

 

[Curunen.8729]

> @"Caro.2730" said:

> It's not like we got additional dodges. Maybe the Rune of the Adventurer and Sigil of Energy are the problem?

 

Since sigil of energy got nerfed it's not such a big deal. In wvw maybe because it's still a free dodge on swap, but not in pvp.

 

And adventurer runes can't be procced that often unless using traited mirror heal - but I don't think that is a popular heal choice (or traiting it in Chaos). On False Oasis it's only one dodge every 25s, and on Ether Feast it's every 20s - so not really a big deal. And tbh I don't think many use Mantra heal anymore. I think Adventurer runes are fine.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Falan.1839" said:

> I stopped reading at Infinity Horizon over Elusive Mind.

 

Actually the top mesmer players, who are running Power Shatter Mirage over Condi Mirage, typically run Infinite Horizon over Elusive Mind.

[NeedCoffee.1402]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Falan.1839" said:

> > I stopped reading at Infinity Horizon over Elusive Mind.

>

> Actually the top mesmer players, who are running Power Shatter Mirage over Condi Mirage, typically run Infinite Horizon over Elusive Mind.

 

this is true.

Yes, Elusive Mind is broken so why not use that? (Especially with all the condi) But Infinite Horizion combo'ed with Deceptive Evasion ....... weird stuff happens.

A chrono told me yesterday i made too many illusions........ a chrono.....

[Morwath.9817]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Falan.1839" said:

> > I stopped reading at Infinity Horizon over Elusive Mind.

>

> Actually the top mesmer players, who are running Power Shatter Mirage over Condi Mirage, typically run Infinite Horizon over Elusive Mind.

 

Actually the top mesmer players believe, let Quaggan quote Lord Jebseth himself "condi Mirage is the most cancerous thing in history of GW2, maybe only bunker mes was worse" and "Elusive Mind is broken and never should be made", something like that...

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @"Morwath.9817" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"Falan.1839" said:

> > > I stopped reading at Infinity Horizon over Elusive Mind.

> >

> > Actually the top mesmer players, who are running Power Shatter Mirage over Condi Mirage, typically run Infinite Horizon over Elusive Mind.

>

> Actually the top mesmer players believe, let Quaggan quote Lord Jebseth himself "condi Mirage is the most cancerous thing in history of GW2, maybe only bunker mes was worse" and "Elusive Mind is broken and never should be made", something like that...

 

Source? genuinely curious

[Morwath.9817]

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > @"Morwath.9817" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > @"Falan.1839" said:

> > > > I stopped reading at Infinity Horizon over Elusive Mind.

> > >

> > > Actually the top mesmer players, who are running Power Shatter Mirage over Condi Mirage, typically run Infinite Horizon over Elusive Mind.

> >

> > Actually the top mesmer players believe, let Quaggan quote Lord Jebseth himself "condi Mirage is the most cancerous thing in history of GW2, maybe only bunker mes was worse" and "Elusive Mind is broken and never should be made", something like that...

>

> Source? genuinely curious

 

[00:43:40 is about condi Mirage being the most cancerous thing, except bunker Mes](

"43:40 is about condi Mirage being the most cancerous, except bunker Mes")

[Daishi.6027]

If there is a problem with mirage, the problem lies with condi and it's implications for how conquest evolves with it.

 

Asking for mirage nerfs is only going to needlessly hurt power.

 

As long as condi is viable in a way people can safely run survivability while forfeiting nothing you are bound to have problems especially in a game type that demands some level of map control. This may not be the case for every condi build, but has been a running theme since release whenever condi has been made viable. Saving grace this time around is the problematic build (Condi Mirage) wont strait up carry games outside of portal, which in solo/duo (so ranked) is not a sure fire victory. In addition teams typically don't stack them, and it's arguably less beneficial to do so.

 

It's very similar to a role thief alone used to excel at in an even less contested meta, and that among others was deemed okay for a long time.

 

> @"Jinks.2057" said:

> 1v1 vs a mirage isn't about how skilled both opponents are but how competent the mirage player is. The non mirage players skill is irrelevant in this situation

 

^ This could be said about a lot of match-ups. Pre HoT Thief vs Mes being a prime example, but again we are not balancing for 1v1s.

Maybe Condi Mirage has a lot more beneficial matchups, but those individual fights have less impact on the entirety of conquest, compared to stacking multiple players to carry team fights.

 

I want a 1v1-3v3 game, so if we're going to change the philosophy I'm absolutely down to nerf mirage. Maybe then we can have a pvp people would actually want to watch.

 

 

[Jinks.2057]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> If there is a problem with mirage, the problem lies with condi and it's implications for how conquest evolves with it.

>

> Asking for mirage nerfs is only going to needlessly hurt power.

>

> As long as condi is viable in a way people can safely run survivability while forfeiting nothing you are bound to have problems especially in a game type that demands some level of map control. This may not be the case for every condi build, but has been a running theme since release whenever condi has been made viable. Saving grace this time around is the problematic build (Condi Mirage) wont strait up carry games outside of portal, which in solo/duo (so ranked) is not a sure fire victory. In addition teams typically don't stack them, and it's arguably less beneficial to do so.

>

> It's very similar to a role thief alone used to excel at in an even less contested meta, and that among others was deemed okay for a long time.

>

> > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > 1v1 vs a mirage isn't about how skilled both opponents are but how competent the mirage player is. The non mirage players skill is irrelevant in this situation

>

> ^ This could be said about a lot of match-ups. Pre HoT Thief vs Mes being a prime example, but again we are not balancing for 1v1s.

> Maybe Condi Mirage has a lot more beneficial matchups, but those individual fights have less impact on the entirety of conquest, compared to stacking multiple players to carry team fights.

>

> I want a 1v1-3v3 game, so if we're going to change the philosophy I'm absolutely down to nerf mirage. Maybe then we can have a pvp people would actually want to watch.

>

>

 

No mirage needs to be nerfed pretty severely. The top players in the game all calling for nerfs on Mirage b/c it's doing too much at once.

 

As for comparing Mirage to pre HoT thief vs mesmer.....Fun fact: Thief only hard countered mesmer for the brief time that s/d was meta. Once that was over it stopped being a hard counter. In fact if you were losing to a thief 1v1 pre HoT after the June 2015 patch that's a l2p affair

 

Mirage pretty much hard counters everyone 1v1 while being the 2nd most mobile class. You have the ultimate side point fighter who can run decap/+1 just about as good as a thief. Yes thief is faster, but a thief can't 1v1. I'd take the class that can win any 1v1

[Swagg.9236]

> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> @"Xstein.2187" said:

> > Mirage wan't hit by the condi crunch this patch. It will probably be hit next patch. Confusion on every shatter, Torment on every shatter, extra multi confusion stacks with blinding dissipation and Ineptitude (still at two stacks), Riddle of sand applying two instead of one stacks more of confusion, Jaunt still applying and extra 3 stacks. IMO, this is the first step that needs to be addressed. However, the devs also hinted at larger condi changes as well. So, perhaps they are waiting for that to be ready and hit first.

>

> ' **See It For What It Is, Not What They Want You To See** '

>

> Confusion Mesmer- Published Sep 17, 2012 by Mesmer player

>

>

 

Man, I remember taking Feedback with Sword/Focus and having to combo like 4 skills together to attempt to stack 10+ confusion onto a single target. I lost my mind when I would land something like 15 stacks on somebody (and it's not like I knew it was effective or anything either--confusion mesmer was more of a silly experiment or fool-around gimmick). Feedback on target -> Focus Phantasm -> Void -> Sword Immobilize -> Shatter.

 

Now everyone pops 3 skills and instantaneously frontloads 10-30 stacks from range while stealthed. And then the confusion ticks passively, so anet's lauded "No, no, the proper counter-play is to do nothing for 7 seconds" is worthless even then if you're out of condi cleanses (or, more often, if your condi cleanses cleanse all of the piddly vuln and torment stacks but miss the 18 confusion blinking on your status bar).

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Swagg.9236" said:

> > @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > @"Xstein.2187" said:

> > > Mirage wan't hit by the condi crunch this patch. It will probably be hit next patch. Confusion on every shatter, Torment on every shatter, extra multi confusion stacks with blinding dissipation and Ineptitude (still at two stacks), Riddle of sand applying two instead of one stacks more of confusion, Jaunt still applying and extra 3 stacks. IMO, this is the first step that needs to be addressed. However, the devs also hinted at larger condi changes as well. So, perhaps they are waiting for that to be ready and hit first.

> >

> > ' **See It For What It Is, Not What They Want You To See** '

> >

> > Confusion Mesmer- Published Sep 17, 2012 by Mesmer player

> >

> >

>

> Man, I remember taking Feedback with Sword/Focus and having to combo like 4 skills together to attempt to stack 10+ confusion onto a single target. I lost my mind when I would land something like 15 stacks on somebody (and it's not like I knew it was effective or anything either--confusion mesmer was more of a silly experiment or fool-around gimmick). Feedback on target -> Focus Phantasm -> Void -> Sword Immobilize -> Shatter.

>

> Now everyone pops 3 skills and instantaneously frontloads 10-30 stacks from range while stealthed. And then the confusion ticks passively, so anet's lauded "No, no, the proper counter-play is to do nothing for 7 seconds" is worthless even then if you're out of condi cleanses (or, more often, if your condi cleanses cleanse all of the piddly vuln and torment stacks but miss the 18 confusion blinking on your status bar).

 

Representing both extremes here, stupidly easy access to condition stacks like the current game, versus relatively large effort to get a pretty small amount of conditions on an enemy. There is a healthy middle ground, but I do think it leans far closer to the 2013 state of the game than the current state of the game.

[Swagg.9236]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > @"Swagg.9236" said:

> > > @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > > @"Xstein.2187" said:

> > > > Mirage wan't hit by the condi crunch this patch. It will probably be hit next patch. Confusion on every shatter, Torment on every shatter, extra multi confusion stacks with blinding dissipation and Ineptitude (still at two stacks), Riddle of sand applying two instead of one stacks more of confusion, Jaunt still applying and extra 3 stacks. IMO, this is the first step that needs to be addressed. However, the devs also hinted at larger condi changes as well. So, perhaps they are waiting for that to be ready and hit first.

> > >

> > > ' **See It For What It Is, Not What They Want You To See** '

> > >

> > > Confusion Mesmer- Published Sep 17, 2012 by Mesmer player

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Man, I remember taking Feedback with Sword/Focus and having to combo like 4 skills together to attempt to stack 10+ confusion onto a single target. I lost my mind when I would land something like 15 stacks on somebody (and it's not like I knew it was effective or anything either--confusion mesmer was more of a silly experiment or fool-around gimmick). Feedback on target -> Focus Phantasm -> Void -> Sword Immobilize -> Shatter.

> >

> > Now everyone pops 3 skills and instantaneously frontloads 10-30 stacks from range while stealthed. And then the confusion ticks passively, so anet's lauded "No, no, the proper counter-play is to do nothing for 7 seconds" is worthless even then if you're out of condi cleanses (or, more often, if your condi cleanses cleanse all of the piddly vuln and torment stacks but miss the 18 confusion blinking on your status bar).

>

> Representing both extremes here, stupidly easy access to condition stacks like the current game, versus relatively large effort to get a pretty small amount of conditions on an enemy. There is a healthy middle ground, but I do think it leans far closer to the 2013 state of the game than the current state of the game.

 

Do conditions *have* to be a source of damage, though? Whatever happened to DoTs just being mild HP pressure and conditional triggers for certain skills? I'd say anet just messed up conditions having any truly defined role at all in GW2 by vomiting them onto every skill and trait that they could. If condis were kept to flat, outgoing damage totals and restrained to 1-2 per build across all respective professions and weapon options, then we could have seen more skills like

 

* Deal +X% more damage vs poisoned targets

* Heal yourself and nearby allies for each bleed stack on struck foes

* Gain X whenever you inflict vulnerability on a target.

 

Man, we could have had an entire build just devoted to stacking vuln because it could have been mildly difficult to juggle 25 stacks and only a few professions could even get access to vuln. Instead, everyone inflicts insane amounts of random conditions even if they're running power builds. Condis are just everywhere. The game is drowning in them to the point where they lose any real purpose at all except MUH DPS.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> >My warrior going 100-0 in a single hit

> You mean you spam 4K imblocable evade, random 5k and you 100-0 the mes ?

 

With the recent massive nerf to might makes right any mirage that can't beat a dodge warrior is a very very bad player.

[jihm.2315]

if they fix necro and mesmer pvp will be a lot more fun its actually those two that ruin it for the rest of us

necro impossible to approach and mesmer impossible to kite but arena net wont go the extra mile i already lost faith