A Plea For Dungeons.

[Zhaveh.6801]

> @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> Gemstore didn't kill dungeons, HoT and going F2P killed them. No point making content for F2P players while you can make raids and lock them behind expansions. Even fractal reward system got hit by the fractal mastery track.

 

you can lock new dungeons behind living world updates.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Zhaveh.6801" said:

> > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > @"Zhaveh.6801" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"TheRandomGuy.7246" said:

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > @"TheRandomGuy.7246" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Talindra.4958" said:

> > > > > > > > > but imagine 1 new dungeon each update with good reward farm like fractal..

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > So how exactly would it differ from a new fractal?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If dungeons are made in addition to fractals then its just double the content. If dungeons and fractals are developed on rotation then they can make an instance with actual relevant story once in a while ~~without messing with their own lore if they still care about it~~.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > My point is, there is no reason to develop two types of instanced content that do exactly the same, except one (FotM) is strictly superior to the other because it also features difficulty tiers so it can appeal to a wider group of players.

> > > > >

> > > > > Having more repeatable content is already big enough reason to do it.

> > > > > Giving designers and writers an opportunity to do better boss fights and develop characters is another one.

> > > >

> > > > And **all** of that can be done in the FotM format. As evidenced by the fractal updates in the last year. We get better stories, boss fights that are leaps and bounds better and recurring characters/story arcs spanning over different instances.

> > >

> > > Fractals are too short.

> >

> > Fractals are the fix for dungeons, the Anet team tends to abandon content/stuff and add more things to the game as a fix and hope players forget about older stuff, same happens with class power creep every expantion , players should forget about dungeons and get into fractals even Anet made a ascended drops and rewards to be fractals rewards.

> >

> > The Gw2 team, do not tend to improve what needs to be improved, and add more stuff wich is basicly a improved mechanic of other thing already existent in game, fractals is a dungeons system with better rewards, accessable form one spot.

> > This is one of the several reasons PVE looks and feels a mess, to much of the same where part of the game gets forgetten rather than improved, it is most developed new stuff to blind players with rewards than actually think how to improve the game itself, with current and existent dungeons system.

>

> I'm not asking for a fix to old dungeons. I'm asking for new dungeons to be added.

 

i might gone blunt mode as usual there and went a bit offtopic ;O

 

What i wanted to say was that Anet sees the fractals as the new dungeons already, i bet they were trying also to remove the dungeons form those maps and add them to fractals later, where they can add new dungeons there, then they have the raids thing.

 

Imo this is one of the reasons(of many) that helped pve lost its depth.

[Magnus Godrik.5841]

I would like anet to revert back to the old rewards for dungeons. They shouldn't force anyone to play any specific game mode. The reason they nerfed the rewards was to make players do fractals. Which is BS in my opinion. A new dungeon would be welcomed from time to time. Fractals are cool and some of them are very much like a dungeon.

[Carambola.1273]

In my opinion an important point is for raid you need 10 people with meta, training rotation etc etc But dungeons are good for small guilds because 5 people is enough. They made such interesting maps in both expansion and for me there is no reason for Tno new dungeons. And I agree with you when you say the dungeons brings more content to the game story it is true. Anet should think in smaller groups and dungeons helps in this way.

 

I also understand they will not fix the old ones, like AC P2 that is bugged for years because this content is free and they will not invest in free content but there is no excuse to dont create new dungeons in expansion maps.

[Feanor.2358]

The problem isn't the content being free. Fractals are free as well. ANet just chose them over dungeons for development and support. I suspect one of the reasons for it was the fact fractals generally take less time which makes them appealing for more players.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> I would like anet to revert back to the old rewards for dungeons.

 

They are already un-nerfed. It's slightly less per path, slightly more if you do the 8-unique path repeatable achievement, including the value of the tokens.

[Talindra.4958]

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > @"Zhaveh.6801" said:

> > > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > > @"Zhaveh.6801" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > @"TheRandomGuy.7246" said:

> > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > @"TheRandomGuy.7246" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Talindra.4958" said:

> > > > > > > > > > but imagine 1 new dungeon each update with good reward farm like fractal..

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > So how exactly would it differ from a new fractal?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If dungeons are made in addition to fractals then its just double the content. If dungeons and fractals are developed on rotation then they can make an instance with actual relevant story once in a while ~~without messing with their own lore if they still care about it~~.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > My point is, there is no reason to develop two types of instanced content that do exactly the same, except one (FotM) is strictly superior to the other because it also features difficulty tiers so it can appeal to a wider group of players.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Having more repeatable content is already big enough reason to do it.

> > > > > > Giving designers and writers an opportunity to do better boss fights and develop characters is another one.

> > > > >

> > > > > And **all** of that can be done in the FotM format. As evidenced by the fractal updates in the last year. We get better stories, boss fights that are leaps and bounds better and recurring characters/story arcs spanning over different instances.

> > > >

> > > > Fractals are too short.

> > >

> > > Fractals are the fix for dungeons, the Anet team tends to abandon content/stuff and add more things to the game as a fix and hope players forget about older stuff, same happens with class power creep every expantion , players should forget about dungeons and get into fractals even Anet made a ascended drops and rewards to be fractals rewards.

> > >

> > > The Gw2 team, do not tend to improve what needs to be improved, and add more stuff wich is basicly a improved mechanic of other thing already existent in game, fractals is a dungeons system with better rewards, accessable form one spot.

> > > This is one of the several reasons PVE looks and feels a mess, to much of the same where part of the game gets forgetten rather than improved, it is most developed new stuff to blind players with rewards than actually think how to improve the game itself, with current and existent dungeons system.

> >

> > I'm not asking for a fix to old dungeons. I'm asking for new dungeons to be added.

>

> i might gone blunt mode as usual there and went a bit offtopic ;O

>

> What i wanted to say was that Anet sees the fractals as the new dungeons already, i bet they were trying also to remove the dungeons form those maps and add them to fractals later, where they can add new dungeons there, then they have the raids thing.

>

> Imo this is one of the reasons(of many) that helped pve lost its depth.

 

I will be very sad if they remove the old dungeons. The locations, the dungeons and so on created a lot of very nice memories back in the days when everyone were doing it.

[Carambola.1273]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> The problem isn't the content being free. Fractals are free as well. ANet just chose them over dungeons for development and support. I suspect one of the reasons for it was the fact fractals generally take less time which makes them appealing for more players.

 

I really think it is a question. Dungeons are free and upleveling content, you dont need to follow meta or train rotation. It is much more inclusivist content then raids and fractals that are exclusivist content, in my opinion. After you get 150AR in your full ascended gear you hardly will play T1 fractals and in this way I think fractals dont include the free players. It is an end game foccused content and hardly someone with the core game without HOT or POF will find a party on T4 fractal without being kicked out. I never saw anyone with the core game classes in a fractal 100, for example. Another thing I disagree it is not about the time it takes because fractals were besides players interest for some time and people just got interested after they improved the rewards/gold on fractals and nerfed reward/gold on dungeons.

 

Anet is thinking about their own pocket when as creative professionals they should be thinking outside the box and looking for solutions to keep the game interesting for all kind of players. If we are here now having this discussion it means that there are players interested in dungeons and this players are asking for a solution too. In my guild dungeons would be much more interesting because we are a small group of friends playing and 10 people content (as raid) are not good for my group, 5 people content suits us better. You may say "there is the LFG" I know, but as non English speakers it is difficult for us to be in TS with English speakers because we dont understand but we also bought the game, we also like the game, we have our profile as group and we should be taked in consideration too. What I am trying to say is Anet should at least try to fullfill the diferent players profiles to keep the game flowing and populated.

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Carambola.1273" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > The problem isn't the content being free. Fractals are free as well. ANet just chose them over dungeons for development and support. I suspect one of the reasons for it was the fact fractals generally take less time which makes them appealing for more players.

>

> I really think it is a question. Dungeons are free and upleveling content, you dont need to follow meta or train rotation. It is much more inclusivist content then raids and fractals that are exclusivist content, in my opinion. After you get 150AR in your full ascended gear you hardly will play T1 fractals and in this way I think fractals dont include the free players. It is an end game foccused content and hardly someone with the core game without HOT or POF will find a party on T4 fractal without being kicked out. I never saw anyone with the core game classes in a fractal 100, for example.

 

And your opinion is wrong. T1 fractals are a lot more relaxed than any dungeon. Technically speaking, you don't *need* to train rotations and follow meta even for T4. I know it for a fact because I've done that in the past. Nowadays it is harder to do so, but that's because of the community, not the content itself. The same used to be true for dungeons as well, for the same reason. You'd get kicked for not knowing the speedrun tactics or using a wrong class/build from a dungeon meta party just like you'd get now from a fractal one.

 

> @"Carambola.1273" said:

> Another thing I disagree it is not about the time it takes because fractals were besides players interest for some time and people just got interested after they improved the rewards/gold on fractals and nerfed reward/gold on dungeons.

 

These are two separate factors. Reward/time is important for players, but increasing both time and reward so as to keep the reward constant will still end up in reducing the number of interested players. Generally speaking, it is easier to find a 20-min free time window than it is to find a 40-min one. Of course, you can't shrink the time infinitely because you want the content to be meaningful in some sense. But as we can see from experience, the fractal format manages to do that. It creates characters and delivers story. The only major difference is there are no "cinematic" dialogs but frankly I can live with that.

 

> @"Carambola.1273" said:

> Anet is thinking about their own pocket when as creative professionals they should be thinking outside the box and looking for solutions to keep the game interesting for all kind of players. If we are here now having this discussion it means that there are players interested in dungeons and this players are asking for a solution too. In my guild dungeons would be much more interesting because we are a small group of friends playing and 10 people content (as raid) are not good for my group, 5 people content suits us better. You may say "there is the LFG" I know, but as non English speakers it is difficult for us to be in TS with English speakers because we dont understand but we also bought the game, we also like the game, we have our profile as group and we should be taked in consideration too. What I am trying to say is Anet should at least try to fullfill the diferent players profiles to keep the game flowing and populated.

>

 

No, I'm saying - again - there are the Fractals of the Mists. It's 5-man content which serves exactly the same purpose as dungeons, except it is easier to find time for it and it lets you play it on a lower difficulty for less rewards should your group struggle with it.

[Carambola.1273]

@Feanor.2358

As an opinion there is no right or wrong, there are just diferences or disagreement/agreements. The opinion is not a truth, nor mine, nor yours because the truth is something that by the obvious is an universal agreement of all humans beings, which is not the case.

 

You like fractals, I like fractals too but I also like the dungeons and I really wanna see new dungeons. I disagree with you in many things, for example when you say you dont need meta for fractal. Yes you do, specially for t4 fractals 99 or 100 in challenge mote. You need the meta and need to know the mechanics.

This post is a plea for dungeons, for players that like and miss dungeon and like the cutscenes and the storis on the dungeons. Fractals has story, it is about an Asura and his investigations on the Mists. Dungeons stories are about Destinys Edge, maps and races. New dungeons could be about new maps, it should bring more information about the past on that maps.

 

Because I dont agree with you this doesnt mean you wrong and I right, it just says we have diferent point of view, ok?

[Zhaveh.6801]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Carambola.1273" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > The problem isn't the content being free. Fractals are free as well. ANet just chose them over dungeons for development and support. I suspect one of the reasons for it was the fact fractals generally take less time which makes them appealing for more players.

> >

> > I really think it is a question. Dungeons are free and upleveling content, you dont need to follow meta or train rotation. It is much more inclusivist content then raids and fractals that are exclusivist content, in my opinion. After you get 150AR in your full ascended gear you hardly will play T1 fractals and in this way I think fractals dont include the free players. It is an end game foccused content and hardly someone with the core game without HOT or POF will find a party on T4 fractal without being kicked out. I never saw anyone with the core game classes in a fractal 100, for example.

>

> And your opinion is wrong. T1 fractals are a lot more relaxed than any dungeon. Technically speaking, you don't *need* to train rotations and follow meta even for T4. I know it for a fact because I've done that in the past. Nowadays it is harder to do so, but that's because of the community, not the content itself. The same used to be true for dungeons as well, for the same reason. You'd get kicked for not knowing the speedrun tactics or using a wrong class/build from a dungeon meta party just like you'd get now from a fractal one.

>

> > @"Carambola.1273" said:

> > Another thing I disagree it is not about the time it takes because fractals were besides players interest for some time and people just got interested after they improved the rewards/gold on fractals and nerfed reward/gold on dungeons.

>

> These are two separate factors. Reward/time is important for players, but increasing both time and reward so as to keep the reward constant will still end up in reducing the number of interested players. Generally speaking, it is easier to find a 20-min free time window than it is to find a 40-min one. Of course, you can't shrink the time infinitely because you want the content to be meaningful in some sense. But as we can see from experience, the fractal format manages to do that. It creates characters and delivers story. The only major difference is there are no "cinematic" dialogs but frankly I can live with that.

>

> > @"Carambola.1273" said:

> > Anet is thinking about their own pocket when as creative professionals they should be thinking outside the box and looking for solutions to keep the game interesting for all kind of players. If we are here now having this discussion it means that there are players interested in dungeons and this players are asking for a solution too. In my guild dungeons would be much more interesting because we are a small group of friends playing and 10 people content (as raid) are not good for my group, 5 people content suits us better. You may say "there is the LFG" I know, but as non English speakers it is difficult for us to be in TS with English speakers because we dont understand but we also bought the game, we also like the game, we have our profile as group and we should be taked in consideration too. What I am trying to say is Anet should at least try to fullfill the diferent players profiles to keep the game flowing and populated.

> >

>

> No, I'm saying - again - there are the Fractals of the Mists. It's 5-man content which serves exactly the same purpose as dungeons, except it is easier to find time for it and it lets you play it on a lower difficulty for less rewards should your group struggle with it.

 

I don't think it serves the same purpose as dungeons. Seeing as we aren't getting nearly the same kind of story delivery as stories. SPvP is 5 man content does that serve the same purpose as dungeons? no it doesn't. It caters to a different player base.

[Eramonster.2718]

Won't stop them if they do add new dungeons tho since it does add more value to the game. But I do hope to see improvements in it, clearer instructions on puzzles and what to do, monsters that actually give challenges(not just stand still sentries in numbers) and bosses that leaves an impression(not just more hp for difficulties).Will need to suggest an idea on how to attract players too or it will just die down fast(aetherblade lasted...3weeks?)

But not sure if Anet hv the resources to spare without interrupting LS, raid, bugs( WvW invisible walls omg pls) etc.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Zhaveh.6801" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Carambola.1273" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > The problem isn't the content being free. Fractals are free as well. ANet just chose them over dungeons for development and support. I suspect one of the reasons for it was the fact fractals generally take less time which makes them appealing for more players.

> > >

> > > I really think it is a question. Dungeons are free and upleveling content, you dont need to follow meta or train rotation. It is much more inclusivist content then raids and fractals that are exclusivist content, in my opinion. After you get 150AR in your full ascended gear you hardly will play T1 fractals and in this way I think fractals dont include the free players. It is an end game foccused content and hardly someone with the core game without HOT or POF will find a party on T4 fractal without being kicked out. I never saw anyone with the core game classes in a fractal 100, for example.

> >

> > And your opinion is wrong. T1 fractals are a lot more relaxed than any dungeon. Technically speaking, you don't *need* to train rotations and follow meta even for T4. I know it for a fact because I've done that in the past. Nowadays it is harder to do so, but that's because of the community, not the content itself. The same used to be true for dungeons as well, for the same reason. You'd get kicked for not knowing the speedrun tactics or using a wrong class/build from a dungeon meta party just like you'd get now from a fractal one.

> >

> > > @"Carambola.1273" said:

> > > Another thing I disagree it is not about the time it takes because fractals were besides players interest for some time and people just got interested after they improved the rewards/gold on fractals and nerfed reward/gold on dungeons.

> >

> > These are two separate factors. Reward/time is important for players, but increasing both time and reward so as to keep the reward constant will still end up in reducing the number of interested players. Generally speaking, it is easier to find a 20-min free time window than it is to find a 40-min one. Of course, you can't shrink the time infinitely because you want the content to be meaningful in some sense. But as we can see from experience, the fractal format manages to do that. It creates characters and delivers story. The only major difference is there are no "cinematic" dialogs but frankly I can live with that.

> >

> > > @"Carambola.1273" said:

> > > Anet is thinking about their own pocket when as creative professionals they should be thinking outside the box and looking for solutions to keep the game interesting for all kind of players. If we are here now having this discussion it means that there are players interested in dungeons and this players are asking for a solution too. In my guild dungeons would be much more interesting because we are a small group of friends playing and 10 people content (as raid) are not good for my group, 5 people content suits us better. You may say "there is the LFG" I know, but as non English speakers it is difficult for us to be in TS with English speakers because we dont understand but we also bought the game, we also like the game, we have our profile as group and we should be taked in consideration too. What I am trying to say is Anet should at least try to fullfill the diferent players profiles to keep the game flowing and populated.

> > >

> >

> > No, I'm saying - again - there are the Fractals of the Mists. It's 5-man content which serves exactly the same purpose as dungeons, except it is easier to find time for it and it lets you play it on a lower difficulty for less rewards should your group struggle with it.

>

> I don't think it serves the same purpose as dungeons. Seeing as we aren't getting nearly the same kind of story delivery as stories. SPvP is 5 man content does that serve the same purpose as dungeons? no it doesn't. It caters to a different player base.

 

SPvP does, being a competitive format which is fundamentally different. Fractals aren't. Their playerbase and the one of the dungeons overlap heavily, leaving a very small number of players actually preferring dungeons. Too small to justify their development. And if it was the other way around, then the fractals would get abandoned. Again, heavily overlapping. There is no space for both in the game.

[Raikidd.5803]

> @"Talindra.4958" said:

> \o i will sign petition for this :P when dungeon was a thing back in the good old days. it was truly fun. many guilds were doing them. now all you hear guild talking about is raids and fractal (among minority of people) and fractal is not something everyone does like in the old days almost everyone jump into dungeon to play.

You seem to think that dungeons are this "walk in park casual 30min content", but lets remember aetherpath at lauch, how all casuals shouted that is too hard and elitist.

 

 

[MithranArkanere.8957]

If I had a wish-granting djinn, I'd go with a reuse of the assets for the good stuff we already know that works: story, fractals, small maps.

 

1. Move the story mode to personal story like Arah's. Like Victory or death, they will become a required part of the story, and scale to party size. When you get the mail from your friend of Destiny's Edge, you'll have to go to that dungeon and do the story for it. The rewards for each dungeon story mission will be changed from a rare helm with a loot skin to helm with that dungeon's skin for the character's armor class. Masterwork for Ascalonian catacombs, rare for Caudecus Manor and Twilight Arbor, Exotic from Sorrow's Furnace to Arah.

* Merge the concept of repeatable story with 'open world entrance' dungeons. All of the existing repeatable stories will scale difficulty with party size and give daily repeatable rewards, usually coin, karma and the region's currency.

* Unlike the rest of the personal story, these stories will still be repeatable for achievements and challenge modes, but no daily rewards unless it's a daily achievement.

* Give the story instances a button to open the LFG like dungeons and fractals have.

* Add a new setting checkbox to the LFG: "Automatic story party" or something like that, that automatically lets you join parties of people in the same story step as you by having the client set the LFG automatically and joining existing LFGs.

2. Move the explorable paths to Fractals.

* Rather than using up slots of fractal levels, dungeons in fractals will start with their own alternate list of levels in fractal Map Selection panel. You click a button to put the panel in dungeon mode, and the 25 levels are filled with the 25 dungeon paths (7 dungeons * 3 paths = 21, +4 Arah paths = 25)

* Like fractal levels, fractal dungeons will be repeated in 4 tiers. So the first path of each tier will always be Ascalon Catacombs Hodgin's path, the last will always be Arah's Seer path.

* Like fractals levels, enemies in fractal dungeons will get gradually tougher as tiers go up and there will be Agony. But the agony effect will start appearing from the 26th (first path in T2) instead from the 20th.

* T1 will be easier that the current paths, T2 as hard, T3 will introduce additional mechanics, and T4 will introduce additional boss mechanics and smarter enemy AI.

* The rewards will be both fractal relics and dungeon tokens, but not pristine fractal tokens. Those would be kept for fractal levels.

* In the vendor, dungeon tokens alone will be usable to get exotic gear just like always.

* Relics, dungeon tokens and marks will be usable to get ascended versions of dungeon gear that have alternate versions of existing skins.

* Ascalonian Weapons skins that are always day and always night.

* Ascalonian armors that look ghostly, and AC armors that change between the normal and the ghostly appearance.

* Golden Wing weapons that actually look golden.

* Council armor that looks polished instead tattered.

* Nightmare weapons with a red glow.

* Aetherized Nightmare armors and red glow nightmare armors.

* Asuran weapons with a green glow (instead blue or red)

* Holographic forgeman armors.

* Flame legion armors with dyable flames.

* Molten weapons with alternate fire colors

* Frosty Koda armors

* Defrosted Kodan weapons.

* Green inquest/mystic weapons

* Magitech inquest armor with dyable glows.

* "Purified" versions of Arah armors with the tattered and bone-like parts replaced with fine cloth, good leathers and smooth plates.

* Alternate color Dragon's Deep weapons.

3. Turn the dungeon maps themselves into small open world areas that happen after each dungeon's story mode. Finishing jumping puzzles in them, each one getting 2-4 repeatable hearts depending on the size of the map, and several events scattered over the map. And a single meta-event in a 1-hour cycle.

 

Of course, none of this will ever happen. At least until I find that wish-granting djinn.

 

[Fastbender.4968]

My 2 cents, for a while I craved for new dungeons to crawl thru and explore...however as time goes on I feel less and less the desire for new dungeons(or even raids). As the years have progressed the once new and exciting dungeons have turned into...what feels more like abandoned ruins(which is not a bad thing). Back before arena net gutted the gold reward for completing a run, every day I logged on there were groups of speedrunners for each dungeon. These groups required you to be knowledgeable about the dungeon and the tactics used to speed run thru. Now when I log on, the players who run dungeons today are so green it feels like I'm running the dungeons w/ a first year group all over again, and that hasn't been a bad feeling as I realized that the difficulty is still very relevant even w/ my power creep if I'm grouped w/ newer(or new to the dungeon) players. Its kinda given me a new perspective on the dungeons in this game, they are kinda amazing in the sense that rather than requiring a geared group to efficiently complete them it requires a knowledgeable group instead. Simple tricks and tactics can completely change the difficulty level of each dungeon, and all it requires is players to seek out those tactics.

 

Unfortunately you wont find those players anymore, and I'm not sure about the rest of my speedrunners(if you still play) but personally I feel the reason is lack of incentive. I still run the dungeons because I'm a dungeon crawler, its what I like to do, but other than enjoyment for participating there is no other rewards in it for me. I've acquired more dungeon tokens than I know what to do with and I've purchased all the gear available for each dungeon.

 

I don't want new dungeons, as the current ones have remained fun and relevant. The only thing that they lack for players is the incentive to go back and mastering the dungeon. Soo please address that however you see fit. Whether if it's adding new armor once in awhile, or bumping up the gold rewards again *shrug* w/e. Just do something...please.

 

P.S. Arah should definitely reward more gold....also arah is easily the best dungeon I've encountered in any game (including wow). But damn is the end reward lame(especially P4 -_- seriously).

[Linken.6345]

> @"Fastbender.4968" said:

> My 2 cents, for a while I craved for new dungeons to crawl thru and explore...however as time goes on I feel less and less the desire for new dungeons(or even raids). As the years have progressed the once new and exciting dungeons have turned into...what feels more like abandoned ruins(which is not a bad thing). Back before arena net gutted the gold reward for completing a run, every day I logged on there were groups of speedrunners for each dungeon. These groups required you to be knowledgeable about the dungeon and the tactics used to speed run thru. Now when I log on, the players who run dungeons today are so green it feels like I'm running the dungeons w/ a first year group all over again, and that hasn't been a bad feeling as I realized that the difficulty is still very relevant even w/ my power creep if I'm grouped w/ newer(or new to the dungeon) players. Its kinda given me a new perspective on the dungeons in this game, they are kinda amazing in the sense that rather than requiring a geared group to efficiently complete them it requires a knowledgeable group instead. Simple tricks and tactics can completely change the difficulty level of each dungeon, and all it requires is players to seek out those tactics.

>

> Unfortunately you wont find those players anymore, and I'm not sure about the rest of my speedrunners(if you still play) but personally I feel the reason is lack of incentive. I still run the dungeons because I'm a dungeon crawler, its what I like to do, but other than enjoyment for participating there is no other rewards in it for me. I've acquired more dungeon tokens than I know what to do with and I've purchased all the gear available for each dungeon.

>

> I don't want new dungeons, as the current ones have remained fun and relevant. The only thing that they lack for players is the incentive to go back and mastering the dungeon. Soo please address that however you see fit. Whether if it's adding new armor once in awhile, or bumping up the gold rewards again *shrug* w/e. Just do something...please.

>

> P.S. Arah should definitely reward more gold....also arah is easily the best dungeon I've encountered in any game (including wow). But kitten is the end reward lame(especially P4 -_- seriously).

 

You could buy exotic weapons and mystic forge em for gen1 percursors thats how I got my second one ^_^

[Ashtor Grey.5043]

I would like to see dungeons updated overtime to adjust to the lvls ppl have come to not really but virtualy to the way the have become.

[Raikidd.5803]

> @"Fastbender.4968" said:

> Back before arena net gutted the gold reward for completing a run, every day I logged on there were groups of speedrunners for each dungeon. These groups required you to be knowledgeable

 

People don't understand that the current implementation of dungeon rewards is as profitable or even more profitable that the old one and I'm not saying this, but [math says it](

"math says it"). Yea, you don't get as much raw gold, but if you spend a little time you can convert the tokens and the loot into gold.

 

 

[Iozeph.5617]

> @"Raikidd.5803" said:

> > @"Fastbender.4968" said:

> > Back before arena net gutted the gold reward for completing a run, every day I logged on there were groups of speedrunners for each dungeon. These groups required you to be knowledgeable

>

> People don't understand that the current implementation of dungeon rewards is as profitable or even more profitable that the old one and I'm not saying this, but [math says it](

"math says it"). Yea, you don't get as much raw gold, but if you spend a little time you can convert the tokens and the loot into gold.

>

>

 

That might have had a hope of being true when those changes were first implemented, but not now - especially after the introduction of Path of Fire the value of gold has gone up. Far more people now than ever- whether for gems conversion or for mount skins etc. or for the sake of making quick money for their assorted mount unlocks- dump their materials onto the market as quickly as they acquire them. Nearly all materials have plummeted in value due to supply and demand. So much so that many are valued below the minimum required for instant sale on the exchange.

 

In theory the reward for dungeon running was the same or even increased whilst in truth all the changes did were to tie dungeon rewards to the volatility of the Black Lion Exchange. Currently, the old value of the flat gold and token reward for daily runs is looking better and better by comparison.

 

The feeling now is that dungeon rewards currently are deflating worse and worse and probably won't even out for a long time if ever. Even after the rush for mounts the drive to continue to work for gold to convert to gems and cut your neighbour's throat in the market isn't going anywhere and will probably keep the value of most commodities deflated. And even after the nerfs Lake doric is more profitable than dungeons if one were only going by time invested versus gold earned.

 

If they wanted to keep some interest alive for the sake of those not wanting to play fractals or being thrown into the deep end with raiding straight off, a way of acquiring ascended items via the dungeon path token system would probably be a step in the right direction. Then you could run a certain dungeon hub, acquire a piece of armour or weapon - limited to whatever stat combinations are tied to that dungeon- then head off to the next hub, repeating the process. If you take into account the ability to convert ascended items via the mystic forge then a player could still enjoy dungeons whilst working toward ascended items with the goal in mind of having a full sell of their preference by the end of it all. Would it be a longer path? Perhaps but there are certain players who don;t mind this so long as they're able to earn their way to something whilst enjoying the game with friends. That's how this game was originally marketed. Many paths to success.

 

Any additional interest in any game mode here certainly won't hurt gem sales. Players have to be playing guild wars two to know there are even new items on the game store. Point of purchase displays no longer work if customers consciously avoid your stall after a bad experience. But those are just my observations.

[Zhaveh.6801]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Zhaveh.6801" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Carambola.1273" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > The problem isn't the content being free. Fractals are free as well. ANet just chose them over dungeons for development and support. I suspect one of the reasons for it was the fact fractals generally take less time which makes them appealing for more players.

> > > >

> > > > I really think it is a question. Dungeons are free and upleveling content, you dont need to follow meta or train rotation. It is much more inclusivist content then raids and fractals that are exclusivist content, in my opinion. After you get 150AR in your full ascended gear you hardly will play T1 fractals and in this way I think fractals dont include the free players. It is an end game foccused content and hardly someone with the core game without HOT or POF will find a party on T4 fractal without being kicked out. I never saw anyone with the core game classes in a fractal 100, for example.

> > >

> > > And your opinion is wrong. T1 fractals are a lot more relaxed than any dungeon. Technically speaking, you don't *need* to train rotations and follow meta even for T4. I know it for a fact because I've done that in the past. Nowadays it is harder to do so, but that's because of the community, not the content itself. The same used to be true for dungeons as well, for the same reason. You'd get kicked for not knowing the speedrun tactics or using a wrong class/build from a dungeon meta party just like you'd get now from a fractal one.

> > >

> > > > @"Carambola.1273" said:

> > > > Another thing I disagree it is not about the time it takes because fractals were besides players interest for some time and people just got interested after they improved the rewards/gold on fractals and nerfed reward/gold on dungeons.

> > >

> > > These are two separate factors. Reward/time is important for players, but increasing both time and reward so as to keep the reward constant will still end up in reducing the number of interested players. Generally speaking, it is easier to find a 20-min free time window than it is to find a 40-min one. Of course, you can't shrink the time infinitely because you want the content to be meaningful in some sense. But as we can see from experience, the fractal format manages to do that. It creates characters and delivers story. The only major difference is there are no "cinematic" dialogs but frankly I can live with that.

> > >

> > > > @"Carambola.1273" said:

> > > > Anet is thinking about their own pocket when as creative professionals they should be thinking outside the box and looking for solutions to keep the game interesting for all kind of players. If we are here now having this discussion it means that there are players interested in dungeons and this players are asking for a solution too. In my guild dungeons would be much more interesting because we are a small group of friends playing and 10 people content (as raid) are not good for my group, 5 people content suits us better. You may say "there is the LFG" I know, but as non English speakers it is difficult for us to be in TS with English speakers because we dont understand but we also bought the game, we also like the game, we have our profile as group and we should be taked in consideration too. What I am trying to say is Anet should at least try to fullfill the diferent players profiles to keep the game flowing and populated.

> > > >

> > >

> > > No, I'm saying - again - there are the Fractals of the Mists. It's 5-man content which serves exactly the same purpose as dungeons, except it is easier to find time for it and it lets you play it on a lower difficulty for less rewards should your group struggle with it.

> >

> > I don't think it serves the same purpose as dungeons. Seeing as we aren't getting nearly the same kind of story delivery as stories. SPvP is 5 man content does that serve the same purpose as dungeons? no it doesn't. It caters to a different player base.

>

> SPvP does, being a competitive format which is fundamentally different. Fractals aren't. Their playerbase and the one of the dungeons overlap heavily, leaving a very small number of players actually preferring dungeons. Too small to justify their development. And if it was the other way around, then the fractals would get abandoned. Again, heavily overlapping. There is no space for both in the game.

 

I don't agree. When they gave the ax to the dungeon community you didn't see a huge influx of players doing fractals. In fact it stayed about the same. Same for raids. Dungeons were a casual thing that had some story. That a decent amount of people enjoy. Even if you argue that people dropped it for the gold all they did was hop on the fractal 40 farm. It went from tons of people in LFG doing dungeons in general to a ghost town. I'm not saying players won't join if you throw up an LFG however, you used to not have to because people were generally doing them.

 

yes they are two different kinds of content but the point I'm making is Fractals and Dungeons don't appeal to the same kind of player.

[Zhaveh.6801]

> @"Raikidd.5803" said:

> > @"Talindra.4958" said:

> > \o i will sign petition for this :P when dungeon was a thing back in the good old days. it was truly fun. many guilds were doing them. now all you hear guild talking about is raids and fractal (among minority of people) and fractal is not something everyone does like in the old days almost everyone jump into dungeon to play.

> You seem to think that dungeons are this "walk in park casual 30min content", but lets remember aetherpath at lauch, how all casuals shouted that is too hard and elitist.

>

>

 

I stated in my OP that paths like aetherpath would be dope. Because it takes skill and you have to learn the fights. However, it isn't nearly as long as raiding but not as short as fractals.

[Zhaveh.6801]

> @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> If I had a wish-granting djinn, I'd go with a reuse of the assets for the good stuff we already know that works: story, fractals, small maps.

>

> 1. Move the story mode to personal story like Arah's. Like Victory or death, they will become a required part of the story, and scale to party size. When you get the mail from your friend of Destiny's Edge, you'll have to go to that dungeon and do the story for it. The rewards for each dungeon story mission will be changed from a rare helm with a loot skin to helm with that dungeon's skin for the character's armor class. Masterwork for Ascalonian catacombs, rare for Caudecus Manor and Twilight Arbor, Exotic from Sorrow's Furnace to Arah.

> * Merge the concept of repeatable story with 'open world entrance' dungeons. All of the existing repeatable stories will scale difficulty with party size and give daily repeatable rewards, usually coin, karma and the region's currency.

> * Unlike the rest of the personal story, these stories will still be repeatable for achievements and challenge modes, but no daily rewards unless it's a daily achievement.

> * Give the story instances a button to open the LFG like dungeons and fractals have.

> * Add a new setting checkbox to the LFG: "Automatic story party" or something like that, that automatically lets you join parties of people in the same story step as you by having the client set the LFG automatically and joining existing LFGs.

> 2. Move the explorable paths to Fractals.

> * Rather than using up slots of fractal levels, dungeons in fractals will start with their own alternate list of levels in fractal Map Selection panel. You click a button to put the panel in dungeon mode, and the 25 levels are filled with the 25 dungeon paths (7 dungeons * 3 paths = 21, +4 Arah paths = 25)

> * Like fractal levels, fractal dungeons will be repeated in 4 tiers. So the first path of each tier will always be Ascalon Catacombs Hodgin's path, the last will always be Arah's Seer path.

> * Like fractals levels, enemies in fractal dungeons will get gradually tougher as tiers go up and there will be Agony. But the agony effect will start appearing from the 26th (first path in T2) instead from the 20th.

> * T1 will be easier that the current paths, T2 as hard, T3 will introduce additional mechanics, and T4 will introduce additional boss mechanics and smarter enemy AI.

> * The rewards will be both fractal relics and dungeon tokens, but not pristine fractal tokens. Those would be kept for fractal levels.

> * In the vendor, dungeon tokens alone will be usable to get exotic gear just like always.

> * Relics, dungeon tokens and marks will be usable to get ascended versions of dungeon gear that have alternate versions of existing skins.

> * Ascalonian Weapons skins that are always day and always night.

> * Ascalonian armors that look ghostly, and AC armors that change between the normal and the ghostly appearance.

> * Golden Wing weapons that actually look golden.

> * Council armor that looks polished instead tattered.

> * Nightmare weapons with a red glow.

> * Aetherized Nightmare armors and red glow nightmare armors.

> * Asuran weapons with a green glow (instead blue or red)

> * Holographic forgeman armors.

> * Flame legion armors with dyable flames.

> * Molten weapons with alternate fire colors

> * Frosty Koda armors

> * Defrosted Kodan weapons.

> * Green inquest/mystic weapons

> * Magitech inquest armor with dyable glows.

> * "Purified" versions of Arah armors with the tattered and bone-like parts replaced with fine cloth, good leathers and smooth plates.

> * Alternate color Dragon's Deep weapons.

> 3. Turn the dungeon maps themselves into small open world areas that happen after each dungeon's story mode. Finishing jumping puzzles in them, each one getting 2-4 repeatable hearts depending on the size of the map, and several events scattered over the map. And a single meta-event in a 1-hour cycle.

>

> Of course, none of this will ever happen. At least until I find that wish-granting djinn.

>

 

This is extremely well thought out, and I would not complain if they did this!

[Derenek.8931]

Well, everyone is saying the dungeons need better loot. Which is of course true, but adding loot just makes it a farmfest. The dungeons are emptied out because the enemy AI is really crappy. All parties have to do is stack up in a spot and spam dps at incoming mobs that enter into the kill zone. This makes the entire exercise mindless follow the leader with no skill involved.

1. Monsters need to get out of range if players are too close to each other and stacking dps into a single zone.

2. Bypassing monsters by using memorized glitch paths needs to end. While sneaking is a cool strategy, doing a one man glitch path stealth run for all the rewards is bogus. It's basically being a bot.

3. Increase not just the basic mob AI so it isnt so stupid, but boost their power as well. Which just means that there should be an additional difficulty choice on the npc for people who want to go for ascended or legendary gear.

[zealex.9410]

Tbh just buff the rewards theres no reason to have content in game not being touched by the community because of bad perseption. Buff them so ppl have more to do along with fractals and raids.