Third Party DPS/Gear Checkers Green Light Toxicity

[Dreamwolf.7423]

I know that Anet's current standing on third party programs that allow people to check other's gear and DPS is that it's ok as long as it doesn't give them an unfair advantage over other players. However, there are some that thinks this makes it ok for them to join a group and immediately start flaming party members for not running meta classes, meta builds, etc. Never mind that the group hadn't even actually started doing anything yet.

 

For example: while pugging a T4 fractal group, a person joined and called out half the party. Saying their class was useless, their choice of stats were useless. How they would have to be carried through because they didn't uphold the holy trinity.

 

I find this repulsive. What happened to the days of being able to play how we want? I expected some one to rage during a pug T4 if the party continuously wiped, but this flaming from the second they joined was just crazy. **"Anet says its okay."** That is actually what they used to justify what their behavior. I have pugged T4s for years and this is the second time in a few months that I've had to deal with something like this. I actually got kicked from one group because I changed out a weapon for a fight. No warning, just booted. Because I changed out a weapon to fit the fight we were wiping in. But this party had no such problems, everyone seemed to be able to hold their own, carry their own weight, etc. We never wiped. We didn't spend too much time on any one boss. Yet, this one person continued on and on until I finally blocked them. Makes it difficult to communicate with your party when you have to block a member of it.

 

**BUT ANET SAYS ITS OK.**

 

That right there is the problem.** It's not ok, ANET.** This is a game. People should enjoy playing a game. When people enjoy playing a game, they spend money on that game. Right now, I don't enjoy playing GW2. And I know I'm not the only one.

 

**BUT ANET SAYS ITS OK.**

 

[Loosmaster.8263]

AFAIK there is only one **DPS** meter that meets Anets standard, ArcDPS.

 

I don't think any 3rd party program that allows gear check is approved.

[Nick Lentz.6982]

Block and move on. I play minstrel guardian in t4's I usually never get questioned because no one dies, but you're going to run into "that guy" who is not good enough at his meta build and will join groups who are just playing for fun. Just put all welcome and be sure to bring a friend so you can kick the person out.

 

I also use ArcDPS, to monitor how much Booning I am doing, so not all toxic players use it.

[WARIORSCHARGEING.2637]

another reason why it is so many left the game and only play the game these days from time to time . after anet said ok to DPS METERS well that was when the salt gates opened and never will be shut again . anet loves having lots of salt in this game !! as well as other things in this game that came with these DPS meters !! it also brought a lot of wow players to this game as well too.

 

which i can understand why that is but the toxics that came with them .well that damaged the game even more with anet saying its all ok !!

[ProverbsofHell.2307]

Tbh? DPS metres breathed new life into the game for me. When I deal 20% of a bosses health, and the rest of the 40 man group did about 3-5% damage... I don't flame them for not putting in as much effort or whatever, but it's nice that the metre speaks for itself if anyone ever accused me of leeching/slacking.

 

Metres show the truth. And I see no reason to hide from it.

[WARIORSCHARGEING.2637]

> @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:

> Tbh? DPS metres breathed new life into the game for me. When I deal 20% of a bosses health, and the rest of the 40 man group did about 3-5% damage... I don't flame them for not putting in as much effort or whatever, but it's nice that the metre speaks for itself if anyone ever accused me of leeching/slacking.

>

> Metres show the truth. And I see no reason to hide from it.

 

these right here are the very reasons why not to make party's or group with other players at all in this game!! and why the game is dead and no one cares any more about noting . think that is why anet did it all in the first place just so they could see all the salt come to the game !!!

 

yeah the game has its own built in dps meter but yet no one ever bright enough to use it nor has anet improved it.

and why it is best to never make party's or group with people in this game at all .. but in the end they will never ever get it . :p :p

[Dreamwolf.7423]

> @"Loosmaster.8263" said:

> AFAIK there is only one **DPS** meter that meets Anets standard, ArcDPS.

>

> I don't think any 3rd party program that allows gear check is approved.

 

I read Gaile's post about 3rd party add ons very carefully before I made this post. According to her. "The best way for a player to assess whether a specific third-party program could have any impact on another player or a PvP opponent is to ask:

"Does this program allow someone to play faster, better, longer, or more accurately than someone who doesn't use it?"

"Does this program allow someone to 'play' when he/she is not at the computer?"

"Does this program allow the user to gain undeserved rewards?"

If the answer to any of these questions is "yes"—or even "maybe"—then we strongly recommend that you do not use the program because to do so may place your Guild Wars or Guild Wars 2 account in jeopardy."

 

Everything else is OK. Including gear checkers.

[Linken.6345]

> @"Dreamwolf.7423" said:

> > @"Loosmaster.8263" said:

> > AFAIK there is only one **DPS** meter that meets Anets standard, ArcDPS.

> >

> > I don't think any 3rd party program that allows gear check is approved.

>

> I read Gaile's post about 3rd party add ons very carefully before I made this post. According to her. "The best way for a player to assess whether a specific third-party program could have any impact on another player or a PvP opponent is to ask:

> "Does this program allow someone to play faster, better, longer, or more accurately than someone who doesn't use it?"

> "Does this program allow someone to 'play' when he/she is not at the computer?"

> "Does this program allow the user to gain undeserved rewards?"

> If the answer to any of these questions is "yes"—or even "maybe"—then we strongly recommend that you do not use the program because to do so may place your Guild Wars or Guild Wars 2 account in jeopardy."

>

> Everything else is OK. Including gear checkers.

 

No gear checkers are not ok since the other dps meter had it for chinese version it could be copied to work on us/eu version and got his acocunt banned for not taking it away.

[Cynn.1659]

> @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:

> Tbh? DPS metres breathed new life into the game for me. When I deal 20% of a bosses health, and the rest of the 40 man group did about 3-5% damage... I don't flame them for not putting in as much effort or whatever, but it's nice that the metre speaks for itself if anyone ever accused me of leeching/slacking.

>

> Metres show the truth. And I see no reason to hide from it.

 

Dps meters also allowed other professions to become part of the meta. Have you seen raid runs before dps meters were allowed? At first sign of trouble all of meta professions would get kicked, meanwhile problem was with other people, now you can tell exactly what's wrong with the group, it's a good thing.

[CptAurellian.9537]

It's unfortunate that ANet is horribad at making their stance towards third-party addons transparent. Having it scattered all over these forums and reddit certainly is not helpful, otherwise we would not see this kind of post every few weeks. But if you had done a minimum amount of research beyond that one post, you could have discovered the correct answer quite quickly. So please refrain from spreading stuff that is simply not true.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Dreamwolf.7423" said:

> > @"Loosmaster.8263" said:

> > AFAIK there is only one **DPS** meter that meets Anets standard, ArcDPS.

> >

> > I don't think any 3rd party program that allows gear check is approved.

>

> I read Gaile's post about 3rd party add ons very carefully before I made this post. According to her. "The best way for a player to assess whether a specific third-party program could have any impact on another player or a PvP opponent is to ask:

> "Does this program allow someone to play faster, better, longer, or more accurately than someone who doesn't use it?"

> "Does this program allow someone to 'play' when he/she is not at the computer?"

> "Does this program allow the user to gain undeserved rewards?"

> If the answer to any of these questions is "yes"—or even "maybe"—then we strongly recommend that you do not use the program because to do so may place your Guild Wars or Guild Wars 2 account in jeopardy."

>

> Everything else is OK. Including gear checkers.

 

Actually, that's true only to a point.

There's more to it than that. which is illustrated perfectly by Chris Cleary's Reddit post:

>Good questions here, but nothing I haven't already answered. I'll go ahead and rebump previous info given out here.

 

>ArenaNet authorizes the use and development of 3rd Party tools under the banner of a "DPS Meter". "DPS Meters" is defined as the collection and processing of combat related data in order to develop a statistical and visual representation of that data. This combat data maybe collected from anyone inside of your immediate social group. Social groups are defined as including the player character, and current party and/or squad.

 

>**Combat data does not include current entity status, including current Buffs/Debuffs/Health/Stats/Location or any other data that is not generated due to the usage of skills or impact on player characters due to skill usage (by the PC/s or an outside source).**

 

>The collection and processing of data in the client must be limited to the scope of the "DPS meter" and should not exceed it. Visualization of this data must also limited to the scope of the "DPS Meter" which includes visualizations, logging, and processing/visualization of logging.

Original post:

 

Since Gear check isn't something you can check without reading parts of the memory not included in that definition of combat data, they're at least a very questionable gray area.

 

Also, welcome to Guild Wars 2? Because matey gear checks, build selections and whatever else you're complaining about has been in the game since there is a game. There will always be jerks that will complain even without gear check. I personally always frown when i see a thief or a elementalist in Fractals. It's not that they aren't good classes, in fact weaver is a **great** class, the problem is that they're both squishy classes, and a lot of people just die in 3 seconds when playing those. But while in cringe on the inside, i'll only say anything if there's anything to say. I personally only care about completing fractals quickly. If i can do that with one guy under-DPSing the supports i don't care. He got carried, good for him.

 

OP did well, when you have a jerk in your party, just block the guy. Carry on, complete the content and move on. Don't blame the tools for the bad users. DPS meters are great to improve yourself and your groups.

People might use them to make themselves feel superior, but "mall-cop syndrome" is everywhere, and there's always small people that will use any excuse to make themselves feel bigger. And as such should be ignored, or better yet, if you have a DPS meter yourself, make sure he's actually all that (which 9 times out of ten he won't be) and call him out on his BS.

 

I remember clearly this one case, of a guy in CM 99, he kept dying as a guardian. As such i was constantly having to interrupt my rotations to ress him (clutch resses with distortion). Out of the whole group he was down like 7 times compared to 3 on the second person with most downs.

He asked for a pause, everyone thinking he was going to change some gear or traits to improve. Nope, he PMed me and my brother telling **US** to change our builds (Chrono and Druid). Never the less we did that, and **still** the guy kept dying. We eventually managed to finish by ignoring him dead. And he promptly pmed me with his DPS meter results telling me that i had sub-par quickness uptime, and that he was dying because of me and my brother's fault, while even the elementalist (supposedly squishy) only got downed once. Of course instead of allowing himself to be corrected, he blocked **me**. Of course, he probably realized that hadn't me and my brother been busy **ressing him** we'd probably been doing a bit better on the support front.

But when i have to shatter my clones for distort instead of continuum split, so i can ress a guy that died on the edge of the arena (if you did Nightmate you'll know that it's a constant damage field) because he got caught for the _n_'th time on the bosse's tail attack, i obviously will have much lower boon uptime.

 

**TLDR**: There's always toxic players in all games. Their attitude aren't the content's fault or the third party tool's fault. It's their lack of character's fault. So block those people and move on. Don't be afraid of using the tools for their intended purpose (improving your gameplay, and your **fixed** group's, or the PUG if they intend for it - sometimes people ask about their DPS).

[zealex.9410]

> @"WARIORSCHARGEING.2637" said:

> another reason why it is so many left the game and only play the game these days from time to time . after anet said ok to DPS METERS well that was when the salt gates opened and never will be shut again . anet loves having lots of salt in this game !! as well as other things in this game that came with these DPS meters !! it also brought a lot of wow players to this game as well too.

>

> which i can understand why that is but the toxics that came with them .well that damaged the game even more with anet saying its all ok !!

 

"Arah full run lvl 80 full zerk 10k ap"

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Dreamwolf.7423" said:

> I know that Anet's current standing on third party programs that allow people to check other's gear and DPS is that it's ok as long as it doesn't give them an unfair advantage over other players. However, there are some that thinks this makes it ok for them to join a group and immediately start flaming party members for not running meta classes, meta builds, etc. Never mind that the group hadn't even actually started doing anything yet.

>

> For example: while pugging a T4 fractal group, a person joined and called out half the party. Saying their class was useless, their choice of stats were useless. How they would have to be carried through because they didn't uphold the holy trinity.

>

> I find this repulsive. What happened to the days of being able to play how we want? I expected some one to rage during a pug T4 if the party continuously wiped, but this flaming from the second they joined was just crazy. **"Anet says its okay."** That is actually what they used to justify what their behavior. I have pugged T4s for years and this is the second time in a few months that I've had to deal with something like this. I actually got kicked from one group because I changed out a weapon for a fight. No warning, just booted. Because I changed out a weapon to fit the fight we were wiping in. But this party had no such problems, everyone seemed to be able to hold their own, carry their own weight, etc. We never wiped. We didn't spend too much time on any one boss. Yet, this one person continued on and on until I finally blocked them. Makes it difficult to communicate with your party when you have to block a member of it.

>

> **BUT ANET SAYS ITS OK.**

>

> That right there is the problem.** It's not ok, ANET.** This is a game. People should enjoy playing a game. When people enjoy playing a game, they spend money on that game. Right now, I don't enjoy playing GW2. And I know I'm not the only one.

>

> **BUT ANET SAYS ITS OK.**

>

 

If people are being offensive before the group does anything then a DPS meter is not the issue.

[Cynn.1659]

Dumb people don't need dps meters to be toxic, i still remember that one time i got kicked form AC for having 4999ap in group that was demanding 5k, followed by insult on pm.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

I'm sorry that the OP had some bad experiences, but I don't think the conclusions offered are supported by the evidence presented.

 

As @"Ashen.2907" wrote:

> If people are being offensive before the group does anything then a DPS meter is not the issue.

 

> @"Dreamwolf.7423" said:

> However, there are some that thinks this makes it ok for them to join a group and immediately start flaming party members for not running meta classes, meta builds, etc. Never mind that the group hadn't even actually started doing anything yet.

 

ANet doesn't think it's okay for anyone to flame anyone else, regardless of the rationale.

 

> I actually got kicked from one group because I changed out a weapon for a fight. No warning, just booted.

If no one actually told you why you were /kicked, it's hard to know if it happened because you were swapping a weapon or that just happened to be coincidental timing, especially if there was some whispered discussion prior to the kick.

 

 

[STIHL.2489]

You need to take on a more positive attitude with these kinds of changes to the game, don't think of it as a growing population of toxic elitists and a move to drive out casual carebears and bads from the game.

 

Think of it as a restructuring of clientele, so that Anets population can be stronger then it ever was before, with more dedicated players.

 

Of course with any restructure, some people are welcome to move on _other better things_ as they say, or, take the offer they are given if they want to stay around.

[Faaris.8013]

Can we maybe have a sticky with the quotes from Anet? We could then point at the sticky and the threads about this could be closed. This same discussion pops up again and again, and Anet's stance is still not clear for many people. I think it's because they refuse to make a statement here, the quotes come from reddit.

[WARIORSCHARGEING.2637]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"WARIORSCHARGEING.2637" said:

> > another reason why it is so many left the game and only play the game these days from time to time . after anet said ok to DPS METERS well that was when the salt gates opened and never will be shut again . anet loves having lots of salt in this game !! as well as other things in this game that came with these DPS meters !! it also brought a lot of wow players to this game as well too.

> >

> > which i can understand why that is but the toxics that came with them .well that damaged the game even more with anet saying its all ok !!

>

> "Arah full run lvl 80 full zerk 10k ap"

 

yeah NO THANK YOU !! not with all the kicking and toxic players nope and think other players will agree on this !! more so if they want to do content with out dealing with toxic people and having to worry about getting kicked all the time for what ever reason

 

nope no way no how no thank you

[WARIORSCHARGEING.2637]

> @"Cynn.1659" said:

> Dumb people don't need dps meters to be toxic, i still remember that one time i got kicked form AC for having 4999ap in group that was demanding 5k, followed by insult on pm.

 

not even shocked at that at all even . .bet it happens with others too

[GrubySzymek.1362]

The only reason why they allowed DPS meters is because they can't detect most 3rd party tools players use. They can detec abnormal activity on your account but that's it. So when you are hacking into game memory with DPS meter, they can't detect it. So, after raiding was introduced and worse parts of our community felt encouraged to voice their demands, Anet gave up. People were already using such tools before raiding, now they happened to be more requested and more people started sharing 3rd party tools using unofficial channels. And this is why DPS meters are allowed today.

 

Another funny thing is that even though they don't allow gearchecking, every DPS meter can do this. ArcDPS had this option available for some time too. Thing is, once you hack game memory, you can know basically anything. And they can't detect it.

 

Funny how Anet changed their mentality about such cases. But it's probably easier to have legal market under control than fight with the underground. This is why in some countries you can buy legal marijuana.

[Linken.6345]

> @"WARIORSCHARGEING.2637" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"WARIORSCHARGEING.2637" said:

> > > another reason why it is so many left the game and only play the game these days from time to time . after anet said ok to DPS METERS well that was when the salt gates opened and never will be shut again . anet loves having lots of salt in this game !! as well as other things in this game that came with these DPS meters !! it also brought a lot of wow players to this game as well too.

> > >

> > > which i can understand why that is but the toxics that came with them .well that damaged the game even more with anet saying its all ok !!

> >

> > "Arah full run lvl 80 full zerk 10k ap"

>

> yeah NO THANK YOU !! not with all the kicking and toxic players nope and think other players will agree on this !! more so if they want to do content with out dealing with toxic people and having to worry about getting kicked all the time for what ever reason

>

> nope no way no how no thank you

 

Way to miss the point, their reply was to you somehow under the delusion that toxicity came in with dps meters. =) (hint it was always there and we can do then as now, do our all welcome groups and take abit longer to complete our fractals as we did with dungeons and some still do. )

 

[Wolfheart.7483]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> The only reason why they allowed DPS meters is because they can't detect most 3rd party tools players use. They can detec abnormal activity on your account but that's it. So when you are hacking into game memory with DPS meter, they can't detect it. So, after raiding was introduced and worse parts of our community felt encouraged to voice their demands, Anet gave up. People were already using such tools before raiding, now they happened to be more requested and more people started sharing 3rd party tools using unofficial channels. And this is why DPS meters are allowed today.

>

> Another funny thing is that even though they don't allow gearchecking, every DPS meter can do this. ArcDPS had this option available for some time too. Thing is, once you hack game memory, you can know basically anything. And they can't detect it.

>

> Funny how Anet changed their mentality about such cases. But it's probably easier to have legal market under control than fight with the underground. This is why in some countries you can buy legal marijuana.

 

DPS meters don't need to "hack" anything to provide DPS. The DPS of other players has always been available as data in the game. The DPS meter puts it into an easier/quicker to reference format.

 

To the OP:

As others have posted, the toxicity is going to be there no matter what. The DPS meter does not cause toxicity.

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> The only reason why they allowed DPS meters is because they can't detect most 3rd party tools players use.

 

Some online-games actually launch with a secondary client, which supervises the actual client and detects 3rd party interference. This usually leads to lagg, extended loading times and bandwidth-consumption. Safety is never free, especially not in games. The authorization-mechanism we use for our accounts, to make sure only we can use it, even if the passwords are stolen are far away from being cheap or easy to set up. But this is still cheaper than going without and doubling or tripling the support-center staff to restore lost accounts.

 

If we had a monthly fee, the security layers might be better. ANet has to work with the money they have. The pressure is high, everyone wants to be entertained - nearly for free. It is a great game and the prices are just awesome. You know that from your characters and builds, you can never be good in all aspects of the game. And if you play on celestial, your losses are even greater. Judging from the past years, ANet plays on a burst dps build. The things they deliver have great impact and mostly hit their target with precision. But their stamina is pretty low (see content droughts) and their defenses are minor at best. They know when to dodge, but when the endurance is low they get downed for sure. Most of you would still instantly invite such a person into every raid/fractal.

 

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Wolfheart.7483" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > The only reason why they allowed DPS meters is because they can't detect most 3rd party tools players use. They can detec abnormal activity on your account but that's it. So when you are hacking into game memory with DPS meter, they can't detect it. So, after raiding was introduced and worse parts of our community felt encouraged to voice their demands, Anet gave up. People were already using such tools before raiding, now they happened to be more requested and more people started sharing 3rd party tools using unofficial channels. And this is why DPS meters are allowed today.

> >

> > Another funny thing is that even though they don't allow gearchecking, every DPS meter can do this. ArcDPS had this option available for some time too. Thing is, once you hack game memory, you can know basically anything. And they can't detect it.

> >

> > Funny how Anet changed their mentality about such cases. But it's probably easier to have legal market under control than fight with the underground. This is why in some countries you can buy legal marijuana.

>

> DPS meters don't need to "hack" anything to provide DPS. The DPS of other players has always been available as data in the game. The DPS meter puts it into an easier/quicker to reference format.

>

> To the OP:

> As others have posted, the toxicity is going to be there no matter what. The DPS meter does not cause toxicity.

 

DPS meters directly hack game memory. You don't have access to this data as a player without hacking the game. Anet decision to allow DPS meters is in opposition to their TOS.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

To play devils advocate, I find the hardest part in helping people out is finding out what people are doing wrong.

 

I was in cm100 last night, and it was a gigantic pain in the butt. I had to come on with a healer, another person was playing chrono, and we were the only two competent players in the party. In spite of the fact that we had a holosmith, daredevil, and firebrand, and in spite of the fact that either one of those classes could solo the anomaly with no buffs, this team had the hardest time killing the thing and our DPS overall was utterly terrible. When the holosmith or daredevil inevitably ate it, we would repeatedly die from the skull, because the combined power of the 4 of us couldn't beat it. It was so bad that the chrono had to alt to a scourge, just to be the top DPS on the team.

 

The hardest part about this is that there was nothing I could do to improve this team. In order to try and fix things, I have to play a slow game of 20 questions with every single utility, stat, and build choice on every single player. "Do you have this utility? Are you using it right? Do you know how it works? Do you know when to use it? Is it bound to a key that is convenient for you to press? Do you have the right traits to use this utility?" etc and so on. It would be so much easier if I could just delve into this persons build and traits, and just help them directly. But I can't.