PvP makes no sense in this game.

[Saikonaut.2831]

I have been really enjoying GW2 lately, it's been a nice and unique change from WoW and FF14, but I cannot seem to make sense of the PvP at all. PvE in GW2 is great, I have a nice CC rotation down and know how and when to line up my burst; and I find the weapon/ability/build combinations really interesting and cool. But in PvP none of this matters, and cast rotations (e.g. "strategies" or "plays") are not realistically possible against good players because of the absurd amount of condition and AoE damage everyone is constantly taking on the map. I've played 2k+ rated arena PvP in WoW, and have been playing MMOs since the late 90s, so I understand you can't just run in without a plan or you'll die. But in GW2 it doesn't matter what your plan is if they have only 1 more person than you, that group will wipe your group due to insane AoE and condition damage going all over. On both my elementalist and necromancer, it takes a good 8-10 seconds to lay down everything that needs to be in place to line up my burst (on necro it can take 15-20s if you have 0 life force going in), but takes only 1-4 seconds to die from all of the AoE and condition damage that appears to be coming in from everywhere, and from nowhere.

 

Does anyone else feel like GW2 PvP is broken in this way? What would it take for ArenaNet to consider bringing in more single-target DPS and strategies vs only zerg-vs-zerg AoE type gameplay? I understand it's "guild" wars and not "individual" wars, but would they ever consider lowering condition damage at least to bring the skill-level up in PvP? (it takes more skill to have to hit the opponent each time with different abilities vs mashing dots and AoE that hit everyone all the time). I notice that combat rotations feel more "complete" in PvE because I'm doing more single-target encounters, in PvP is really where the game falls apart for me.

[witcher.3197]

Yes, it's nothing new. Anet's obsessed with their PvE benchmarks and they just want to make damage higher and higher. Now, in PvE it's already possible to do twice your HP as DPS, which is as ridiculous as it sounds, and even with the lower stats in PvP it's leaking over, killing the gamemode.

 

But Anet doesn't understand it (or they do, but fixing it would be effort so forget it). Long ago they started making defensive passives stronger to prevent you from getting oneshot, which is a crappy bandaid fix and rather unhealthy.

 

They realized that now! So they are gonna get rid of teh passives! Great! Too bad they forgot why passives exist so the game will be even worse off after their patch.

 

They need to nerf literally everything but they only ever touch 1 thing at a time while breaking 2 others as a result.

[pah.4931]

Condi smap isn't even the biggest problem right now. There are power builds that can WRECK most players in seconds. Damage across the board is just way too high. I hope they fix it... but I doubt they will. At least not for a long while.

[Saikonaut.2831]

I hadn't thought of the much simpler "just lower damage across the board", I guess that would make the excessive AoE condition damage less problematic as well. It's funny, in WoW the damage feels more balanced, but the _numbers_ are too high (e.g. 4 mil crits), looks weird. In GW2 the numbers are fine (in the 1000s) but the actual damage is too high. I wonder what it would do to the balance if they started giving players more and more max HP over time.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Saikonaut.2831" said:

> I hadn't thought of the much simpler "just lower damage across the board", I guess that would make the excessive AoE condition damage less problematic as well. It's funny, in WoW the damage feels more balanced, but the _numbers_ are too high (e.g. 4 mil crits), looks weird. In GW2 the numbers are fine (in the 1000s) but the actual damage is too high. I wonder what it would do to the balance if they started giving players more and more max HP over time.

 

High damage access means the game end being more casual friendly, and tied into certain gimmicks, wich is what gw2 was made for, casuals.

 

A hard balanced game, might end in good players being good and bad players have to put effort, with the high damage every oen has its moemment to shine with the right build, just avoid to fight stuf that melts your build faster than u can melt them :pensive:

 

Dont take gw2 pvp seriously like u can do it on other games, troll as much u can with a decent build/gimmick.

[Saikonaut.2831]

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> A hard balanced game, might end in good players being good and bad players have to put effort, with the high damage every oen has its moemment to shine with the right build, just avoid to fight stuf that melts your build faster than u can melt them :pensive:

 

It may give worse players more of a chance to shine, but the skilled players exist regardless. Which is worse, a skilled player with access to very high damage, or very high health? At least with the latter a fight can go on for more than a few seconds.

[thatdarnkatz.7168]

"High damage access means the game end being more casual friendly, and tied into certain gimmicks," So casuals aren't complaining in another active thread that high damage isn't casual friendly? Because I'm active over there as well, and would say that the spike damage is actually causing them to complain because they think that it's uncounterable when it really is. People have long since complained about thieves spike damage, but most casuals are horrible thieves. The problem is the high spike damage on low skill floor classes, and it only affects gold ranked and below. Once you hit platinum, for the MOST part, you'll find players that have skill, and can deal with this, but this thread is about low skill players from the title.

[Dristig.9678]

Part of it is you are playing the two classes that are most susceptible to spikes. Particularly if you aren't playing scourge.

[BikeIsGone.8675]

Tbh i think that the aoe-spam in PoF isnt half as bad as it was in the early days of HoT.

Sure there are specs (Scourge and Holo for example) that can feel very oppressive to fight in teamfight scenarios, but the current meta isn't as aoe-centric as it appears. Druids, mesmers, warriors, weavers, thieves and revs are _mostly_ single target focused.

 

In all honesty (and I have said this countless times in various threads already) its a gameplay issue in the lower/mid tier ranks. People there tend to think that conquest is all about fighting on points. It even makes sense to some extend to fight on points in order to contest them, but if I see someone tenaciously tanking a chaos storm, various DH traps, a lighting overload, a desert shroud and a few wells cause they "at least died on point", it really makes me wonder. People would rather squeeze out 2 more score ticks and get blown up (being out of the fight for ~30 seconds) than just w8 a few measly seconds and punish the enemy for using their entire skill bar on a point nobody was standing on.

[saerni.2584]

PvP makes sense once you learn how other classes function.

 

The issue is that there is a disparity between active mitigation and the damage output. A good player can mitigate 70% of the damage thrown at them. A bad player, even playing the same “good” build won’t mitigate more than 30%.

 

This lead to posts like yours where the damage seems absurd (and sometimes is) because generating high damage combos is comparatively easy.

 

As far as constructive advice, if you’re interested in advice, I’d offer the following:

 

1) If you are playing a more vulnerable build fight on the edge of the fight. Getting stuck in the center is a good way to get focused and that will hurt in any game. If you get focused on the edges it should be easier for you to pop defensive skills and kite away. The fight over the point is generally not worth dying for and pealing off a few enemies will help your allies work on focusing one of the enemies down.

 

2) Play other professions and learn what their skills do. GW2 has 9 professions and 18 specializations. Each of those have multiple potential builds. There is a lot of background knowledge that you need to be able to anticipate how to fight in particular situations.

 

3) Play the map. Each map plays differently but lower mobility classes can be quite effective if you just anticipate where the enemy will be going. Foefire lets you stand near to both mid and home and reinforce either with minimal planning. Rotations depend on the map design and mechanics and rotation is very important to pvp success.

 

4) Play the players. You can usually figure out who is doing the most damage to you or your team. Focus them and incoming damage will be less. If the enemy has weaker players target them as a second best choice (first if the dangerous character isn’t around).

 

5) If you think damage is still the easier or best route to win, then build yourself for more damage. You just have to be faster than the enemy. But, a warning that higher skill players will recognize your high DPS threat and focus you like in item 4.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

I'm always saying that the game needs a better rhythm. A slower pace.

 

People say builds like most revenant power builds, a reaper with a greatsword, or a warrior with a hammer are too weak and slow. I say they are perfectly fine, it's everything else working too well, too often and being too fast. Too hard to spectate, and too unwelcoming for new players.

 

It should be tactics what gets you the win in a match between skilled players, not mostly a contest to see who can land more skill spam and who can avoid more.

 

I want to see more things like the 3-skill autoattack in melee weapons and scepters. Like pistols and rifles reloading after X autoattack shots, ranged staff autoattacks that can be charged for greater effects at the risk of being interrupted.

[Swagg.9236]

I've always said how GW2 pvp is nonsensical in how esoteric all of its effects are. Any player new to GW2 pvp who is exposed to "high level" gameplay would probably start asking a million questions about why this or that person died, why that person isn't dying, what all these colors are doing on the screen and why it looks like that person is rubberbanding in and out of existence. By this alone, GW2 has no right to call itself any sort of reputable pvp experience.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

first of all spvp is in no way about skill rotations, that's a sign of trying to fit a square peg (pve rotations) into pvp (offensive and defensive counterplay switching and in depth knowledge of your opponents skills and indicators) There are no rotations, but the best players understand and know when and how to use counters and field blasts to gain an advantage from both a burst and a sustain/defensive/cc perspective. The results is a far far richer gameplay experience - but it takes far longer to learn. When you do learn it though its deeply satisfying, much more so that being able to shape a fight to fit a rotation window.

[Nilkemia.8507]

PvP is only good for the reward tracks, pip tracks, sometimes dailies, and nothing else.

[sephiroth.4217]

Just a few things.

 

1. You're playing Elementalist as one of your classes, it currently has no place in PvP. What ever an Ele can do, another class can do it 10x better.

2. The other class you're playing is Necro, currently that class is #1 focus to any player worth their salt. Big ol bulls eye on your head.

3. If you're outnumbered and don't feel confident in winning that fight, rotate to another point. It's called PvP but realistically it should be called "Capture the Node", it's a conquest game and holding points far outweighs the kills (this is strategy to fight zergers)

4. When fighting out numbered, position yourself accordingly. Each map has has plenty of elevations for you to use to give you a clear advantage, by using the 2 classess you have mentioned you play - Ele has Lightning Flash, Necro has Flesh Wurm teleport and The Portals, they can be used to help your positioning.

5. Don't stand in Red Circles.

6. Don't use PvE rotations in PvP - Understand your class, Understand the other classes you're up against and be like water, just flow with the combat and use your abilities accordingly

7. MOST IMPORTANT - From a few things you said about being Necro and doing single target DPS, I can only imagine you're playing a core build Necro, as a Reaper or Scourge, you should be the one dishing out lots of AoE abilities that should be dropping most players.

 

Give it some time, more practice and you'll start to understand why GW2 has one of the best combat mechanics on the market at the moment. Can be a lot to track at the end of the day, boons, combo fields, best finishers to use in each field, using weakness/regen/protection properly and so forth.

[Saikonaut.2831]

> @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> I'm always saying that the game needs a better rhythm. A slower pace.

 

Agreed 100%. I think making less things castable while moving and higher health pools (without inflating damage accordingly) might help.

 

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> PvP makes sense once you learn how other classes function.

 

I've seen this repeated many times on Reddit and here, I disagree. First off – elephant in the room – the _weapons_ have more to do with play-style than the classes. For example, necro and elementalist both have all 1200 range aimed spells when using staff, and all the same range and type of abilities with scepter, dagger, axe etc. - all of these have extremely similar mechanics cross-class. When an elementalist picks up an Ice Bow, it feels like a ranger. There are standardized effects and CC (I'm not arguing against this aspect of GW2, just pointing out that it is so), like for example Blindness, Stun, and so-on which exist cross-class. So it's more the weapons that change up the rotation than the class, therefore a correction to your statement would be "PvP makes sense once you learn how all of the different abilities work in GW2". And I feel I already have a good grasp of that, and that some of the other arguments put forth here still stand.

 

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> first of all spvp is in no way about skill rotations, that's a sign of trying to fit a square peg (pve rotations) into pvp (offensive and defensive counterplay switching and in

> depth knowledge of your opponents skills and indicators) There are no rotations, but the best players understand and know when and how to use counters and field

> blasts to gain an advantage from both a burst and a sustain/defensive/cc perspective. The results is a far far richer gameplay experience - but it takes far longer to learn.

> When you do learn it though its deeply satisfying, much more so that being able to shape a fight to fit a rotation window.

 

sPvP may not be about rotations, but the essential combat mechanics of the game are. If those two don't align, there's something wrong with sPvP. If the base-level combat mechanics clearly involve, and are enhanced by timing and order of abilities, then more abstract implementations of such combat mechanics (e.g. sPvP) should be more advanced and enjoyable versions. I don't buy that it's a richer gameplay; it just feels broken to me. I think the devs of ArenaNet would be happier if what you did in PvP mattered more.

 

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> 1. You're playing Elementalist as one of your classes, it currently has no place in PvP. What ever an Ele can do, another class can do it 10x better.

> 2. The other class you're playing is Necro, currently that class is #1 focus to any player worth their salt. Big ol bulls eye on your head.

> 3. If you're outnumbered and don't feel confident in winning that fight, rotate to another point.

> 5. Don't stand in Red Circles.

> ...

> 7. MOST IMPORTANT - ... you should be the one dishing out lots of AoE abilities that should be dropping most players.

 

All you're doing is proving my points about what is unlikable about GW2's PvP system: Some classes are entirely unviable in PvP due to core mechanics/attributes, being outnumbered equals losing, and AoE damage is overall too high. I agree with all of those things. There are too many aspects of gameplay that have nothing to do with competitiveness that increase the overall clunkiness of PvP, and I think you've reinforced that point.

 

 

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"Saikonaut.2831" said:

> > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> > I'm always saying that the game needs a better rhythm. A slower pace.

>

> Agreed 100%. I think making less things castable while moving and higher health pools (without inflating damage accordingly) might help.

>

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > PvP makes sense once you learn how other classes function.

>

> I've seen this repeated many times on Reddit and here, I disagree. First off – elephant in the room – the _weapons_ have more to do with play-style than the classes. For example, necro and elementalist both have all 1200 range aimed spells when using staff, and all the same range and type of abilities with scepter, dagger, axe etc. - all of these have extremely similar mechanics cross-class. When an elementalist picks up an Ice Bow, it feels like a ranger. There are standardized effects and CC (I'm not arguing against this aspect of GW2, just pointing out that it is so), like for example Blindness, Stun, and so-on which exist cross-class. So it's more the weapons that change up the rotation than the class, therefore a correction to your statement would be "PvP makes sense once you learn how all of the different abilities work in GW2". And I feel I already have a good grasp of that, and that some of the other arguments put forth here still stand.

>

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > first of all spvp is in no way about skill rotations, that's a sign of trying to fit a square peg (pve rotations) into pvp (offensive and defensive counterplay switching and in

> > depth knowledge of your opponents skills and indicators) There are no rotations, but the best players understand and know when and how to use counters and field

> > blasts to gain an advantage from both a burst and a sustain/defensive/cc perspective. The results is a far far richer gameplay experience - but it takes far longer to learn.

> > When you do learn it though its deeply satisfying, much more so that being able to shape a fight to fit a rotation window.

>

> sPvP may not be about rotations, but the essential combat mechanics of the game are. If those two don't align, there's something wrong with sPvP. If the base-level combat mechanics clearly involve, and are enhanced by timing and order of abilities, then more abstract implementations of such combat mechanics (e.g. sPvP) should be more advanced and enjoyable versions. I don't buy that it's a richer gameplay; it just feels broken to me. I think the devs of ArenaNet would be happier if what you did in PvP mattered more.

>

> > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > 1. You're playing Elementalist as one of your classes, it currently has no place in PvP. What ever an Ele can do, another class can do it 10x better.

> > 2. The other class you're playing is Necro, currently that class is #1 focus to any player worth their salt. Big ol bulls eye on your head.

> > 3. If you're outnumbered and don't feel confident in winning that fight, rotate to another point.

> > 5. Don't stand in Red Circles.

> > ...

> > 7. MOST IMPORTANT - ... you should be the one dishing out lots of AoE abilities that should be dropping most players.

>

> All you're doing is proving my points about what is unlikable about GW2's PvP system: Some classes are entirely unviable in PvP due to core mechanics/attributes, being outnumbered equals losing, and AoE damage is overall too high. I agree with all of those things. There are too many aspects of gameplay that have nothing to do with competitiveness that increase the overall clunkiness of PvP, and I think you've reinforced that point.

>

>

 

Being outnumbered DOES NOT equal losing, that is merely a reflection of your own skills vs theirs.

 

Not entirely sure why you re-worded what I said either as that makes the rest of our conversation redundant. I was only trying to help by giving some tips that could help with your overall PvP experience (like point 4) but clearly I wasted my time on someone who is only looking to argue rather than looking to get better.

 

As you said though, you dislike the PvP. Myself on the other hand, the PvP is the only reason I play this game and have been for 5 years now with 30+ toons, every challenge is a challenge worth overcoming until eventually that challenge is nothing more than muscle memory reactions.

[Aza.2105]

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

>every challenge is a challenge worth overcoming until eventually that challenge is nothing more than muscle memory reactions.

 

Nah man, pvp is a hot mess at this time. I'd recommend the OP to go back to wow or play a moba. Either one is better than gw2 at this time. FF14 even had decent pvp in comparison to gw2.

[saerni.2584]

@"Saikonaut.2831"

 

I’d argue the weapons are part of the individual builds and knowledge of those builds.

 

For example, I know that if a warrior is X/S + GS what abilities they have, what the traits do, how to anticipate their burst. If running an elite spec I know even more about the utilities they might be using. It it holistic. And I don’t forget that if the warrior is better than me mechanically then I will have a tough time holding him off.

 

Basically, even if you say “I know that already” you wouldn’t be taking so much damage from everyone if you did. A few strong outliers like spikes from Deadeyes and Holo makes more sense (but you can anticipate holo attacks and avoid a lot of the damage).

 

Outside a few defensive builds most “counters” to being burst down is counter pressure. I’ve trained numerous thieves over the years who don’t do enough damage only because they don’t counter pressure with pressure. They hit hard enough but I could take the few hits they landed and return 10x the damage to them. All things considered:

 

1) If you’re not being focused you shouldn’t be dying.

 

2) if you are being focused dying isn’t unusual because it’s a team game and focusing is good team play.

 

3) If you are dying to one player focusing you either the enemy build is overly strong or there is room for you to improve.

 

4) If you are alive when your team isn’t find something worthwhile to accomplish but don’t just suicide (I.e. don’t invite them to focus you).

[Xillllix.3485]

> @"Dristig.9678" said:

> Part of it is you are playing the two classes that are most susceptible to spikes. Particularly if you aren't playing scourge.

 

Nah, the gameplay is nothing as strategic as it used to be. GW2 competitive modes are broken since the trait change before HOT.

[MarshallLaw.9260]

> @"Saikonaut.2831" said: absurd amount of condition and AoE damage everyone is constantly taking on the map.

It's currently a condi meta, as long as you are more aware of it and bring cleanses/resistance it becomes less problematic.

 

> What would it take for ArenaNet to consider bringing in more single-target DPS ......

There are plenty of single target DPS build (like Deadeye, LB Druid and SB to a certain extent)

 

> but would they ever consider lowering condition damage at least to bring the skill-level up in PvP? (it takes more skill to have to hit the opponent each time with different abilities vs mashing dots and AoE that hit everyone all the time).

 

Condi stack application was nerfed fairly recently for several classes. Also saying AOEs take "less skill" isn't necessarily correct - ground targeted AOEs have to be placed well but many single target attacks will automatically snap to hit your closest opponent.

 

> @"pah.4931" said:

> Damage across the board is just way too high. I hope they fix it...

> @"Saikonaut.2831" said:

> I hadn't thought of the much simpler "just lower damage across the board"

 

There are just as many threads about _"the damage is too god-damn high!"_ as there are about bunker builds being too tanky. Theoretically, if you lower damage overall, glass builds will survive longer but deal less damage and bunker builds will be even more difficult to defeat. If we then make bunker builds less tanky, then we are just toning everything down and I see that as less interesting to play. Some people might disagree, but I like the idea of extreme builds. I want to see the glass cannon builds that can one-shot players but lack survivability, I want to see the bunker builds who can take on 2-3 people and live (but deal little damage).

 

There is certainly room for adjustments and more balancing for certain traits and skills but players venturing into PvP should also be aware of the current meta. Everything can be countered in one way or another and people can look at what the most popular builds are currently and gear and trait themselves to be able to fight back effectively.

 

[Malafaia.8903]

This topic makes no sense.

 

1 - Condition damage is again a secondary source of damage, except for Scourge (since the playerbase cried like there's no tomorrow for this)

2 - AoEs are MUCH more present in PvE than PvP.

3 - Lowering (more) condition damage won't bring skill level up. In fact it will just simplify the combat system and make people worry only about power damage.

4 - You're looking for "rotations" in PvP?

5 - Another topic from someone who are being beaten hard in PvP, don't want to learn and are bashing the combat mechanics/ power creep/ conditions.

6 - Point me an MMO nowadays that are more technical/ reactive than GW2 with all the conditions/ cleanses, stuns/ stunbreakers, power/ blocks.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

Anet tried to put sense into pvp once. We all know how good of a meme it was.

[ScottBroChill.3254]

it's a pretty long learning curve for most people to learn to play their class in pvp. You have to have a constant rotation of survival skills and always another one on hand. Then you need a damage/spike rotation as well as being able to look at the enemy and not your own skill bar. You have to watch what they are doing and not just where they are. I've been playing pvp forever and I still struggle at this and is why I'm in silver. But you can't blow all your dodges, taking water traits is really good for ele in pvp due to conditions. But honestly, I use a sword/dagger burn weaver build using fire/arcane/weaver and I do just fine. Condi bombs usually come in intervals so it's about waiting for the other player to use all their condi skills and then going in for a quick spike to kill them.

[rank eleven monk.9502]

> @"MarshallLaw.9260" said:

> It's currently a condi meta, as long as you are more aware of it and bring cleanses/resistance it becomes less problematic.

I don't know which game you are playing but since the last update you can barely see any condi builds except a few scourges here and there.