Remove the Evade from Death Blossom

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

If you took the evade out, nobody would play the build, because what thief wants to be stuck in a melee range animation where they can easily be stunned, interrupted, bursted or the like just to apply condis?

 

The evade is the lynchpin holding that build together. Just move out of the way. D/D thieves run out of init quickly.

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> If you took the evade out, nobody would play the build, because what thief wants to be stuck in a melee range animation where they can easily be stunned, interrupted, bursted or the like just to apply condis?

 

That's the point.

 

Sure, you can time an interrupt at the end of the evade frame, but the amount of effort that goes in on both players' parts is disproportional. The person spamming 3 and dodge has an extremely easy and skill-less playstyle. Meanwhile, the person on the receiving end has to evade the thief's evades as they are slowly getting burned down by permanent poison, unblockable bleeds/cripple, and torment. It's not healthy for the gamemode.

 

>

> The evade is the lynchpin holding that build together. Just move out of the way. D/D thieves run out of init quickly.

 

There's also Lotus Training, which has a range of 300. In other words, roughly the radius of most capture points (with the exception of middle at Foefire). The only way to completely avoid their attacks is to give up the node. Otherwise, you have to dodge the enemy's dodges and have really good timing to hit the thief spamming evasion skills that also do damage.

 

And, for the record, people like to assume that **I** am having difficulties fighting against these types of builds. I don't. I just find it annoying how builds can get away and have moderate success with spamming 1 or 2 buttons over and over again. If every single build in the game was like this, it would be a snoozefest.

[babazhook.6805]

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > @"Aza.2105" said:

> > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > @"Aza.2105" said:

> > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > > it just comes down to actual timing in knowing when to use that since the scale has a precast punish frames in during the cast And a pretty long after cast in between their subsequent cast of that skill, Again that’s very skillful play comes in and shuts it down.

> > > >

> > > > But that is a lie. Like I mentioned, timing has nothing to do with it. Since the only things that "can" counter it don't require timing. Wards don't require timing, auras don't require timing, neither do pulsing aoes. But none of those actually work well, save shocking aura.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Prove how it’s a lie, knowing when to use a skill or the more opportune time to use a skill is all about timing, it’s not solely about trying to time it while they are in the animation or before the animation etc, but again that comes down to skillful play, and I know not everyone is going understands that.

> >

> > Its a lie because no one does it and its highly impractical. Numbers show this as well. If you have a skill that has a 1/2 casting time then followed by a 1/2 evade time that can be chained repeatedly. Then landing a skill that has a 1/2 cast time or above will be unlikely. This might be skillfully done if gw2 was played over locally. But remember there is PING. Which makes countering a skill that has a .50 second cast time into a .50 second evade time with a skill that has .50 cast time or above is VERY unlikely. Not to mention there aren't even cast bars.

>

> Good thing DB has a pre cast(a time before the skill actually goes into the animation) a Punish Frame/after cast(window after the animation completes that delays the next skill cast).

>

> And there are a plethora of skills that are under 1/2 second casts that can be used to counter and again properly timing spells that counter Evades is also a good tendency skillful players use.

>

> Again there is a very good reason there isn’t a plethora of these “OP” Teefs in Gold/Plat, because skillful players know how to shut them down and counter them, but again that’s what this all boils down to.

 

The thing is a longer cast time can make hitting these guys during the evade frame EVEN EASIER. When there long cast time on a skill the thief can interrupt you. If you are spamming DB you can NOT do this. You have to eat the damage coming your way. A longer cast time skill can be cast earlier in the animation making it far more likely that it will hit as the DB spam guy is locked in that animation.

 

After the added cost to cast time for shield and headbutt on warrior, I found it easier to hit a DB thief as it is easier to time when he will enter the vulnerable end frame with land. You can absolutely predict what he will do over the next ~second as opposed to a thief not spamming and who can react to your cast. Reacting TO a cast time skill with a timed dodge is always more effective then being IN an evade frame already when that cast time skill used.

 

This is true of any number of skills available. The animation locks the DB spam thief into a very defined landing area. He has no directional contorl over where he lands meaning all you do is land AOE type effects at his feet.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > If you took the evade out, nobody would play the build, because what thief wants to be stuck in a melee range animation where they can easily be stunned, interrupted, bursted or the like just to apply condis?

>

> That's the point.

>

> Sure, you can time an interrupt at the end of the evade frame, but the amount of effort that goes in on both players' parts is disproportional. The person spamming 3 and dodge has an extremely easy and skill-less playstyle. Meanwhile, the person on the receiving end has to evade the thief's evades as they are slowly getting burned down by permanent poison, unblockable bleeds/cripple, and torment. It's not healthy for the gamemode.

>

> >

> > The evade is the lynchpin holding that build together. Just move out of the way. D/D thieves run out of init quickly.

>

> There's also Lotus Training, which has a range of 300. In other words, roughly the radius of most capture points (with the exception of middle at Foefire). The only way to completely avoid their attacks is to give up the node. Otherwise, you have to dodge the enemy's dodges and have really good timing to hit the thief spamming evasion skills that also do damage.

>

> And, for the record, people like to assume that **I** am having difficulties fighting against these types of builds. I don't. I just find it annoying how builds can get away and have moderate success with spamming 1 or 2 buttons over and over again. If every single build in the game was like this, it would be a snoozefest.

 

Agreed that it's incredibly annoying, but I don't think removing the evade is the solution to that particular problem.

Since we cannot have skills mechanically split between pve and pvp, we should probably be looking at the reward it gives for being able to contest the node while evading on the pvp side without upsetting the pve builds.

 

That being said, I don't know what particularly you can shave down that particular build to make it -less- effective for its ease without cutting into the foundation for other condition builds. Maybe the aftercast on death blossom? Make it cost one more init? It already costs four.

 

I think the window to shut them down -after- the evade frame is reasonable enough. Most thieves will buckle under being stunned after an evade. There's going to be cheesy playstyles, but it's not strong enough to consider removing the evade. Keep in mind that this build and P/P are the only ways thieves can contest nodes versus bunkers/scourges 1v1. Crippling it would push them further into +1 roles.

[Spoichiche.1290]

> @"Aza.2105" said:

> Its a lie because no one does it and its highly impractical. Numbers show this as well. If you have a skill that has a 1/2 casting time then followed by a 1/2 evade time that can be chained repeatedly. Then landing a skill that has a 1/2 cast time or above will be unlikely. This might be skillfully done if gw2 was played over locally. But remember there is PING. Which makes countering a skill that has a .50 second cast time into a .50 second evade time with a skill that has .50 cast time or above is VERY unlikely. Not to mention there aren't even cast bars.

 

You clearly don't understand what "timing" actually means here.

Timing a skill to hit right at the end of death blossom's animation is not hard at all. It's what every revenant or engi are constantly doing when timing their elite to hit right at the end of, say, an engi elixirS proc or gardian elite. It's like when fighting a spellbreaker and you notice the full counter, you wait a little before attacking and then time your skill to hit right at the end of their block. You don't wait for the block or invuln to end before starting casting your skill.

 

And latency have nothing to do with timing. As long as your latency is constant and don't have lag spike, your brain will naturally compensate for it. It's not impractical, people do it all the time and it surely doesn't require high skill, just a bit muscle memory.

 

[Hoodie.1045]

I understand that spamming Death Blossom can be annoying to deal with, but removing the evade is not going to solve the problem. The D/D weapon set is not a difficult set to fight since the only thing you've got going for is the evade. I've had instances of bad thieves, specifically condition thieves where they just spam Death Blossom over and over again.

 

There are ways of fighting them back, such as staying out of melee range, carefully timing when the evade ends etc. Some may suggest this minor annoyance can be diminished by increasing the initiative cost from 4 to 6, but I think that D/D thieves are so easy to counter that it's not even worth nerfing Death Blossom.

 

The best advice I can give you is to time the evade at the right moment. The evade lasts for 0.5 seconds, so if you're good with timing you can prevent the thief from spamming Death Blossom. Pay attention to the animation part when the thief is turning in the air into a horizontal position and just about to land on the ground, that is when the evade ends and you can hit the thief with any kind of CC.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @"Aza.2105" said:

> > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > it just comes down to actual timing in knowing when to use that since the scale has a precast punish frames in during the cast And a pretty long after cast in between their subsequent cast of that skill, Again that’s very skillful play comes in and shuts it down.

>

> But that is a lie. Like I mentioned, timing has nothing to do with it. Since the only things that "can" counter it don't require timing. Wards don't require timing, auras don't require timing, neither do pulsing aoes. But none of those actually work well, save shocking aura.

>

Wards auras retal and aoe are all hard counters to Death Blossom. Timing and skill are soft counters. Soft counters works for me on my revenant vs d/d condition potato thieves lol o/

 

Or you could just walk two feet to the left over and over again.

[omgdracula.6345]

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > I would redesign the thief like this:

> > * Get rid of the initiative system

> > * melee weapon skill 2 -5 get cooldowns

> > * introduce a secondary effect on melee weapons called chain attack . for example a successful hit on 1 would unlock chain 2, and successful hit on 2 would unlock chain 3, and so forth. same cooldown as the regular skill, but a limited time to use the chain attack

> > * possibly add a effect called momentum for bigger chains like 1-5 for bigger dmage and not rewarding chains of 3-5, or 4-5 as much

>

> Agreed with this.

> Told the same basic principle on other threads, although not as rigid as that one, because this game is plagued with evades/blocks/invul.

> I don't know what ANet was thinking to droping one of the most original mechanics in assassin/rogue/thief archetype (gw1 assassin's chains) and go with the cliche initiative/energy mechanic.

 

This will never happen and you guys are stupid as hell for even thinking that change would be viable lol. Thieves in GW2 function exactly the fucking same as rogues in wow with combo points. Skills are spammable until your resources are out.

 

If you can't understand that then you are playing the wrong game, and it is an extreme learn to play issue.

 

A thief has a finite amount of initiative it can use at once, and has downtime while it recharges. It is common sense to wait for that and strike them then. But this game is hard right? Dying to a 130 range skill.

[Crab Fear.1624]

> @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > > I would redesign the thief like this:

> > > * Get rid of the initiative system

> > > * melee weapon skill 2 -5 get cooldowns

> > > * introduce a secondary effect on melee weapons called chain attack . for example a successful hit on 1 would unlock chain 2, and successful hit on 2 would unlock chain 3, and so forth. same cooldown as the regular skill, but a limited time to use the chain attack

> > > * possibly add a effect called momentum for bigger chains like 1-5 for bigger dmage and not rewarding chains of 3-5, or 4-5 as much

> >

> > Agreed with this.

> > Told the same basic principle on other threads, although not as rigid as that one, because this game is plagued with evades/blocks/invul.

> > I don't know what ANet was thinking to droping one of the most original mechanics in assassin/rogue/thief archetype (gw1 assassin's chains) and go with the cliche initiative/energy mechanic.

>

> This will never happen and you guys are stupid as hell for even thinking that change would be viable lol. Thieves in GW2 function exactly the kitten same as rogues in wow with combo points. Skills are spammable until your resources are out.

>

> If you can't understand that then you are playing the wrong game, and it is an extreme learn to play issue.

>

> A thief has a finite amount of initiative it can use at once, and has downtime while it recharges. It is common sense to wait for that and strike them then. But this game is hard right? Dying to a 130 range skill.

 

Did you read my whole post or come to your assessment based on this incomplete excerpt he quoted me on?

 

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> I would redesign the thief like this:

> * Get rid of the initiative system

> * melee weapon skill 2 -5 get cooldowns

> * introduce a secondary effect on melee weapons called chain attack . for example a successful hit on 1 would unlock chain 2, and successful hit on 2 would unlock chain 3, and so forth. same cooldown as the regular skill, but a limited time to use the chain attack

> * possibly add a effect called momentum for bigger chains like 1-5 for bigger dmage and not rewarding chains of 3-5, or 4-5 as much

> * shortbow 2-4 get an arrow (ammo kit, maybe max 2 arrows for each skill with icd for each) (some skill effects would need to change to compensate)

> * rifle similiar to shortbow with ammo

> * increase base cooldown of steal to 35 secs

> * add a third profession skill called borrow that allows the thief to target allies instead

>

> because the skills would not be spammable their effects would need to change. a little more defense or offense built into them.

>

> if a player does not use the chain skill, the normal skill does not go on cooldown (the chain skill cooldown at this point would be waiting for the starting skill to recharge)

>

> Skills would be useable in any order and the skills have a normal attack, they can be upgraded to chain attack effect by chaining skill use in order. So not chaining would not prevent you from attacking or using weapon skills

>

 

So what does this mean?

 

* Melee weapon skills get cooldowns

* you can use any weapon skill, in any order

* you **do not have to chain** your skills to use them

* chaining skills will unlock the "chain version" of the skill, which may have a extra effect and momentum

* momentum is a damage modifier that grows with chaining skills

* **REPEAT skills do not have to be chained, the normal version is always available off cooldown**

* momentum increases with larger chains

 

one more time...

 

# Skills do not have to be chained, the normal version is always available off cooldown

 

As thief is right now, it will never get off the nerf bus.

 

This set up would be viable, everyone else has weapon cooldowns. The bonus would be to build in some defense to the attacks and the fact that thieves could gain enormous damage through successful combos chains.

 

Most thief builds rely on pressing 3, and if not 3, some other singular button.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> This will never happen and you guys are stupid as hell for even thinking that change would be viable lol. Thieves in GW2 function exactly the kitten same as rogues in wow with combo points. Skills are spammable until your resources are out.

>

> If you can't understand that then you are playing the wrong game, and it is an extreme learn to play issue.

>

> A thief has a finite amount of initiative it can use at once, and has downtime while it recharges. It is common sense to wait for that and strike them then. But this game is hard right? Dying to a 130 range skill.

 

If I were you, I would read again before commenting.

 

First of all I never complained about thieves.

Second - I said ANet replaced a good mechanic (chains) with a trash copy of other mmo's which you pretty much confirmed with the WoW comparison.

Third - and quoting myself from other thread:

 

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> Scrap initiative.

> Bring back chain attacks from gw1 assassin, slighty modified, you can use skills without chain, but if use the sequence you get bonus (either more damage, boons, condis, reduced CD or whatever).

 

How is spamming crap till it lands viable and this isn't?

 

 

[Solori.6025]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > Is there anything you don't think is overpowered?

> > >

> > > Yes.

> >

> > Such as?

>

> Revenant.

 

. . . .

I. . . .

I honestly don't know of a rebuttle for this....

touche' sir...

[MithranArkanere.8957]

Death Blossom is **perfectly fine** having an evade. The problem isn't even how spammable it is. The problem only happens when it is accompanied by heavy initiative recovery. It makes players using it play worse, and frustrates newher players who do not know how to deal with it.

 

Until PoF there was no solution for the problems like these in thief weapons, but now we have the solution: **skill ammo**.

 

Change Death Blossom to the skill ammo system, and it can be adjusted and fine-tuned by changing how many charges it can have, and how long each charge takes to recharge.

 

People spam it one too many times? Reduce the charges by 1. People spam it too often? Increase the charge cooldown by 20%. Too weak in the current balance? Increase charges and decrease charge cooldown.

 

And this would not only fix troubles with Death Blossom in extreme cases of high initiative recover, but with any skill people tend to spam too much, like Unload or Vault.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> Death Blossom is **perfectly fine** having an evade. The problem isn't even how spammable it is. The problem only happens when it is accompanied by heavy initiative recovery. It makes players using it play worse, and frustrates newher players who do not know how to deal with it.

>

> Until PoF there was no solution for the problems like these in thief weapons, but now we have the solution: **skill ammo**.

>

> Change Death Blossom to the skill ammo system, and it can be adjusted and fine-tuned by changing how many charges it can have, and how long each charge takes to recharge.

>

> People spam it one too many times? Reduce the charges by 1. People spam it too often? Increase the charge cooldown by 20%. Too weak in the current balance? Increase charges and decrease charge cooldown.

>

> And this would not only fix troubles with Death Blossom in extreme cases of high initiative recover, but with any skill people tend to spam too much, like Unload or Vault.

 

Yeah that will take care of all the 2-3 d/d condition thief teams that are a plague on PvP!

 

Wait a second, at high level PvP...no one stacks thief ever....rarely anyone even plays d/d condition anymore because it's a useless no damage no utility build...it's almost like this is a silver tier problem ?

[omgdracula.6345]

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > This will never happen and you guys are stupid as hell for even thinking that change would be viable lol. Thieves in GW2 function exactly the kitten same as rogues in wow with combo points. Skills are spammable until your resources are out.

> >

> > If you can't understand that then you are playing the wrong game, and it is an extreme learn to play issue.

> >

> > A thief has a finite amount of initiative it can use at once, and has downtime while it recharges. It is common sense to wait for that and strike them then. But this game is hard right? Dying to a 130 range skill.

>

> If I were you, I would read again before commenting.

>

> First of all I never complained about thieves.

> Second - I said ANet replaced a good mechanic (chains) with a trash copy of other mmo's which you pretty much confirmed with the WoW comparison.

> Third - and quoting myself from other thread:

>

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > Scrap initiative.

> > Bring back chain attacks from gw1 assassin, slighty modified, you can use skills without chain, but if use the sequence you get bonus (either more damage, boons, condis, reduced CD or whatever).

>

> How is spamming crap till it lands viable and this isn't?

>

>

 

Re read what? The fact you agreed with a quoted excerpt that will never happen? Ill break it down for you why it won't

 

Get rid of the initiative system - Never. Anet would have to rebuild thief skills as well as trait lines that affect initiative.

 

melee weapon skill 2 -5 get cooldowns - This would mean instilling more up front damage into the thiefs kit. Won't happen unless you want an influx of more bitching because now thiefs can instagib someone with even less effort or having to manage initiative between mobility and fighting.

 

introduce a secondary effect on melee weapons called chain attack . for example a successful hit on 1 would unlock chain 2, and successful hit on 2 would unlock chain 3, and so forth. same cooldown as the regular skill, but a limited time to use the chain attack - This is already part of auto chains. Unless you are talking their 1-5 skills being a full chain which again with the abundancy of blocks and evades this game has would essentially cripple thief, or require massive front loading of damage on skills. See previous point.

 

possibly add a effect called momentum for bigger chains like 1-5 for bigger dmage and not rewarding chains of 3-5, or 4-5 as much - Momentum would make more sense to be on the tail end than on the start. There is already that mechanic in the game as well with https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lead_Attacks

[MithranArkanere.8957]

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> > Death Blossom is **perfectly fine** having an evade. The problem isn't even how spammable it is. The problem only happens when it is accompanied by heavy initiative recovery. It makes players using it play worse, and frustrates newher players who do not know how to deal with it.

> >

> > Until PoF there was no solution for the problems like these in thief weapons, but now we have the solution: **skill ammo**.

> >

> > Change Death Blossom to the skill ammo system, and it can be adjusted and fine-tuned by changing how many charges it can have, and how long each charge takes to recharge.

> >

> > People spam it one too many times? Reduce the charges by 1. People spam it too often? Increase the charge cooldown by 20%. Too weak in the current balance? Increase charges and decrease charge cooldown.

> >

> > And this would not only fix troubles with Death Blossom in extreme cases of high initiative recover, but with any skill people tend to spam too much, like Unload or Vault.

>

> []...] this is a [...] problem

 

And you are indeed right. Because a problem is a problem even if it 'only' happens to everyone else but the 1% some care about.

 

It would solve the issues at lower ratings, it would not affect higher ratings because they would have to be really bad to be affected by such a change, and in which case they just do not deserve to be in higher ratings.

 

And so, as you say, this is a problem, and skill ammo would fix it.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> > > Death Blossom is **perfectly fine** having an evade. The problem isn't even how spammable it is. The problem only happens when it is accompanied by heavy initiative recovery. It makes players using it play worse, and frustrates newher players who do not know how to deal with it.

> > >

> > > Until PoF there was no solution for the problems like these in thief weapons, but now we have the solution: **skill ammo**.

> > >

> > > Change Death Blossom to the skill ammo system, and it can be adjusted and fine-tuned by changing how many charges it can have, and how long each charge takes to recharge.

> > >

> > > People spam it one too many times? Reduce the charges by 1. People spam it too often? Increase the charge cooldown by 20%. Too weak in the current balance? Increase charges and decrease charge cooldown.

> > >

> > > And this would not only fix troubles with Death Blossom in extreme cases of high initiative recover, but with any skill people tend to spam too much, like Unload or Vault.

> >

> > []...] this is a [...] problem

>

> And you are indeed right. Because a problem is a problem even if it 'only' happens to everyone else but the 1% some care about.

>

> It would solve the issues at lower ratings, it would not affect higher ratings because they would have to be really bad to be affected by such a change, and in which case they just do not deserve to be in higher ratings.

>

> And so, as you say, this is a problem, and skill ammo would fix it.

 

The only problem is those players don’t yet have the skill to effectively handle the build and funny you throw out the arbitrary percentages when again the build is rarely seen in anything Gold or above, which from Anets own admission the majority of players are in the Gold Tier so again it’s not a widespread issue

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> > > Death Blossom is **perfectly fine** having an evade. The problem isn't even how spammable it is. The problem only happens when it is accompanied by heavy initiative recovery. It makes players using it play worse, and frustrates newher players who do not know how to deal with it.

> > >

> > > Until PoF there was no solution for the problems like these in thief weapons, but now we have the solution: **skill ammo**.

> > >

> > > Change Death Blossom to the skill ammo system, and it can be adjusted and fine-tuned by changing how many charges it can have, and how long each charge takes to recharge.

> > >

> > > People spam it one too many times? Reduce the charges by 1. People spam it too often? Increase the charge cooldown by 20%. Too weak in the current balance? Increase charges and decrease charge cooldown.

> > >

> > > And this would not only fix troubles with Death Blossom in extreme cases of high initiative recover, but with any skill people tend to spam too much, like Unload or Vault.

> >

> > []...] this is a [...] problem

>

> And you are indeed right. Because a problem is a problem even if it 'only' happens to everyone else but the 1% some care about.

>

> It would solve the issues at lower ratings, it would not affect higher ratings because they would have to be really bad to be affected by such a change, and in which case they just do not deserve to be in higher ratings.

>

> And so, as you say, this is a problem, and skill ammo would fix it.

 

Issues at lower ratings are not issues. They are L2P problems.

 

Balancing around L2P problems is a problem.

 

Users of this build would be affected at higher ratings because this build is not viable in higher ratings. If you suggest to nerf a build...that already is not viable...that's not no effect, that means the subpar build is more subpar.

 

In other words I'm glad you're not balancing for us or else every class you don't play would end up as revenant, nerfed to nothing due to refusal to L2P.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> > > > Death Blossom is **perfectly fine** having an evade. The problem isn't even how spammable it is. The problem only happens when it is accompanied by heavy initiative recovery. It makes players using it play worse, and frustrates newher players who do not know how to deal with it.

> > > >

> > > > Until PoF there was no solution for the problems like these in thief weapons, but now we have the solution: **skill ammo**.

> > > >

> > > > Change Death Blossom to the skill ammo system, and it can be adjusted and fine-tuned by changing how many charges it can have, and how long each charge takes to recharge.

> > > >

> > > > People spam it one too many times? Reduce the charges by 1. People spam it too often? Increase the charge cooldown by 20%. Too weak in the current balance? Increase charges and decrease charge cooldown.

> > > >

> > > > And this would not only fix troubles with Death Blossom in extreme cases of high initiative recover, but with any skill people tend to spam too much, like Unload or Vault.

> > >

> > > []...] this is a [...] problem

> >

> > And you are indeed right. Because a problem is a problem even if it 'only' happens to everyone else but the 1% some care about.

> >

> > It would solve the issues at lower ratings, it would not affect higher ratings because they would have to be really bad to be affected by such a change, and in which case they just do not deserve to be in higher ratings.

> >

> > And so, as you say, this is a problem, and skill ammo would fix it.

>

> Issues at lower ratings are not issues. They are L2P problems.

>

> Balancing around L2P problems is a problem.

>

> Users of this build would be affected at higher ratings because this build is not viable in higher ratings. If you suggest to nerf a build...that already is not viable...that's not no effect, that means the subpar build is more subpar.

>

> In other words I'm glad you're not balancing for us or else every class you don't play would end up as revenant, nerfed to nothing due to refusal to L2P.

 

You are horribly wrong. If the problem is what keeps players from learning to play, they will not learn to play unless you address the problem.

 

A bad player who decides to stick pressing a single button over and over won't stop when they lose. You have to make them stop, force them to use other skills.

There's tons of games that have realized they have to balance for such reasons. It's not rare at all to see in patch notes something on the lines "People sit on this all the time, so we make this change to make their have a more varied behavior".

[Crab Fear.1624]

> @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > This will never happen and you guys are stupid as hell for even thinking that change would be viable lol. Thieves in GW2 function exactly the kitten same as rogues in wow with combo points. Skills are spammable until your resources are out.

> > >

> > > If you can't understand that then you are playing the wrong game, and it is an extreme learn to play issue.

> > >

> > > A thief has a finite amount of initiative it can use at once, and has downtime while it recharges. It is common sense to wait for that and strike them then. But this game is hard right? Dying to a 130 range skill.

> >

> > If I were you, I would read again before commenting.

> >

> > First of all I never complained about thieves.

> > Second - I said ANet replaced a good mechanic (chains) with a trash copy of other mmo's which you pretty much confirmed with the WoW comparison.

> > Third - and quoting myself from other thread:

> >

> > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > Scrap initiative.

> > > Bring back chain attacks from gw1 assassin, slighty modified, you can use skills without chain, but if use the sequence you get bonus (either more damage, boons, condis, reduced CD or whatever).

> >

> > How is spamming crap till it lands viable and this isn't?

> >

> >

>

> Re read what? The fact you agreed with a quoted excerpt that will never happen? Ill break it down for you why it won't

>

> Get rid of the initiative system - Never. Anet would have to rebuild thief skills as well as trait lines that affect initiative.

>

> melee weapon skill 2 -5 get cooldowns - This would mean instilling more up front damage into the thiefs kit. Won't happen unless you want an influx of more kitten because now thiefs can instagib someone with even less effort or having to manage initiative between mobility and fighting.

>

> introduce a secondary effect on melee weapons called chain attack . for example a successful hit on 1 would unlock chain 2, and successful hit on 2 would unlock chain 3, and so forth. same cooldown as the regular skill, but a limited time to use the chain attack - This is already part of auto chains. Unless you are talking their 1-5 skills being a full chain which again with the abundancy of blocks and evades this game has would essentially cripple thief, or require massive front loading of damage on skills. See previous point.

>

> possibly add a effect called momentum for bigger chains like 1-5 for bigger dmage and not rewarding chains of 3-5, or 4-5 as much - Momentum would make more sense to be on the tail end than on the start. There is already that mechanic in the game as well with https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lead_Attacks

 

Momentum would replace initiatives effect on lead attacks essentially.

 

Auto attack chain is a wet noodle, and normally a set order that it completes.

 

Of course the skills would be front loaded, because they can be dodged. You could be blinded or blocked.

 

Normal version skills, use at leisure.

 

Massive damage from a well timed combo? perfectly fine compared to 3...3....3....3...1.....3

 

 

No shit it will never happen. I honestly don't think the devs can make anything new under the tyrian sun(s?). As far as I can tell these expansion and living stories are the equivalent of elder scroll mods.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> > > > > Death Blossom is **perfectly fine** having an evade. The problem isn't even how spammable it is. The problem only happens when it is accompanied by heavy initiative recovery. It makes players using it play worse, and frustrates newher players who do not know how to deal with it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Until PoF there was no solution for the problems like these in thief weapons, but now we have the solution: **skill ammo**.

> > > > >

> > > > > Change Death Blossom to the skill ammo system, and it can be adjusted and fine-tuned by changing how many charges it can have, and how long each charge takes to recharge.

> > > > >

> > > > > People spam it one too many times? Reduce the charges by 1. People spam it too often? Increase the charge cooldown by 20%. Too weak in the current balance? Increase charges and decrease charge cooldown.

> > > > >

> > > > > And this would not only fix troubles with Death Blossom in extreme cases of high initiative recover, but with any skill people tend to spam too much, like Unload or Vault.

> > > >

> > > > []...] this is a [...] problem

> > >

> > > And you are indeed right. Because a problem is a problem even if it 'only' happens to everyone else but the 1% some care about.

> > >

> > > It would solve the issues at lower ratings, it would not affect higher ratings because they would have to be really bad to be affected by such a change, and in which case they just do not deserve to be in higher ratings.

> > >

> > > And so, as you say, this is a problem, and skill ammo would fix it.

> >

> > Issues at lower ratings are not issues. They are L2P problems.

> >

> > Balancing around L2P problems is a problem.

> >

> > Users of this build would be affected at higher ratings because this build is not viable in higher ratings. If you suggest to nerf a build...that already is not viable...that's not no effect, that means the subpar build is more subpar.

> >

> > In other words I'm glad you're not balancing for us or else every class you don't play would end up as revenant, nerfed to nothing due to refusal to L2P.

>

> You are horribly wrong. If the problem is what keeps players from learning to play, they will not learn to play unless you address the problem.

>

> A bad player who decides to stick pressing a single button over and over won't stop when they lose. You have to make them stop, force them to use other skills.

> There's tons of games that have realized they have to balance for such reasons. It's not rare at all to see in patch notes something on the lines "People sit on this all the time, so we make this change to make their have a more varied behavior".

 

I don't even know where you went with this.

 

The problem is people that whine about Death Blossom refusing to learn to play against Death Blossom. Idk where the fuck you getting this shit about d/d condition thieves needing to learn to play, so Anet should stop them from pressing the same button? Like what kind of wordplay is this?

 

Condition d/d thief is not viable, does not need a nerf, l2p against it.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > If you took the evade out, nobody would play the build, because what thief wants to be stuck in a melee range animation where they can easily be stunned, interrupted, bursted or the like just to apply condis?

>

> That's the point.

>

> Sure, you can time an interrupt at the end of the evade frame, but the amount of effort that goes in on both players' parts is disproportional. The person spamming 3 and dodge has an extremely easy and skill-less playstyle. Meanwhile, the person on the receiving end has to evade the thief's evades as they are slowly getting burned down by permanent poison, unblockable bleeds/cripple, and torment. It's not healthy for the gamemode.

 

Actually no you are leaving out important factors that need to be considered before you start pulling the **"Disproportional Effort"** card

- What class are you playing is a thief? No? Then yes its going to be harder to interrupt at the end of the evade.

- Playing any other professions you have options to move away quickly or out right ignore the conditions in general while more than likely having more hp.

- If playing another thief vs thief you could easily steal at the end of the animation or head shot at the end of the animation which takes very little effort to do and its very unlikely that you will miss getting your cc in granted how fast both come out.

 

What im trying to say here is that the effort is just as proportional when paired up against another thief when paired to other professions no it shouldn't be equal parts effort. Thats the whole point of playing different professions/classes. To be different from someone else based on your personal preference and play style. Or just how much you like the theme of the profession in general.

 

All you have to do is step to the side to avoid the damage and wait for them to make a wrong move. I done it the other day and beat a d/d condi thieif with power rev. Granted it took a few trys but within 5 minutes i had figured out exactly what he was doing and it is most certainly not worth saying it needs a nerf just because you dont want to step to the side to avoid getting hit.

 

>

> >

> > The evade is the lynchpin holding that build together. Just move out of the way. D/D thieves run out of init quickly.

>

> There's also Lotus Training, which has a range of 300. In other words, roughly the radius of most capture points (with the exception of middle at Foefire). The only way to completely avoid their attacks is to give up the node. Otherwise, you have to dodge the enemy's dodges and have really good timing to hit the thief spamming evasion skills that also do damage.

 

Those are very inaccurate projectiles at their max range and can be reflected and blocked. Ideally a thief who also uses this trait burns their dodges offensively leaving them open and defenseless when they actually make a mistake. The only time you will see lotus training be super strong is if a thief really knows how to abuse the fact that they are projectile finishers and combines them with a smoke or poison field.

 

>

> And, for the record, people like to assume that **I** am having difficulties fighting against these types of builds. I don't. I just find it annoying how builds can get away and have moderate success with spamming 1 or 2 buttons over and over again. If every single build in the game was like this, it would be a snoozefest.

 

So you want them changed just because you dont like them im sure people can say the same things about what you play though.

 

[Jayce.5632]

It's ~~good~~ bad to see that some things never change.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Thiefs-evades-and-blinks/page/1#post3550846

[saerni.2584]

Anyone playing D/D condi at a higher level (few players) is using more than just one or two buttons.

 

The ones using only one or two buttons are not at a skill level where meaningful balance issues can be determined.

 

Plenty of evade attacks in GW2 and on other thief weapons. Ironically, the one you ask to be removed does the least damage and comes with the shortest range and difficulty gap closing.

 

But the reason this won’t change is because the developer resources required far outstrip the need. And that’s even assuming there’s a need. I don’t think you’ve established that either.

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Namless.4028" said:

> maybe a 1s cooldown on all weaon skills would be good to destroy builds that only spam one skill without harming other thief builds too much

 

Eh. I would rather see thief weapon skills get a pseudo-cooldown. If you use it again before this pseudo-cooldown is up, the initiative cost increases by 1, up to a set maximum per skill. It allows thieves to keep spamming their weapon skills if they want to, but also does more to discourage it and would give Anet room to make some of their weapon skills better.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > @"Namless.4028" said:

> > maybe a 1s cooldown on all weaon skills would be good to destroy builds that only spam one skill without harming other thief builds too much

>

> Eh. I would rather see thief weapon skills get a pseudo-cooldown. If you use it again before this pseudo-cooldown is up, the initiative cost increases by 1, up to a set maximum per skill. It allows thieves to keep spamming their weapon skills if they want to, but also does more to discourage it and would give Anet room to make some of their weapon skills better.

 

Initiative is a pseudo cd since every Initiaive used has a CD...... and locks others skill from use depending on how much Initiative is used, oh and the CD carries across weapon sets, next suggestion...