Boss Blitz goes against a pillar of the game

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > > >

> > > > And I honestly don't think this is a bad way of handling it. This is a **MMO**RPG. If we didn't have to meaningfully interact with one another, the game failed its genre definition.

> > > I'd say that telling players to gtfo because your group is already over quota falls in the same category.

> >

> > Are you saying that this is the first event time a newly popular event is attracting people who acted like jerks in some way? Even these days, some people in some Tequatl instances react disproportionately to perceived slow downs. That's even true at AB meta, which succeeds largely on first burn even when one lane starts burning too quickly. New metas with time limits to complete them bring out the worst in some people. That alone doesn't make it a "failed design" to require that people cooperate to succeed.

>

> Honest question here,

>

> If each boss is already at the player limit before scaling gets obscene, how does one join in to get credit without adversely affecting other players?

>

 

Two ways: run in & tag _one_ boss at the beginning. Or wait in center, then tag _one_ boss when the commanders call for burn. Works well.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> It's not "perceived" slowdowns. It's the scaling when you get above 5 people. It's really bad. It's very simple - the more people you get there, the slower it gets.

> Remember, that the current "widely acknowledged" limit of 10 players per boss is not only already too high (the best is likely around 7, anything above that doesn't help anymore), but is also only _half_ of the map population.

10 is not "too high". Depending on the players, 15 or even 20 can be fine.

 

But I'm talking about the fact that _some_ people get upset when anything is perceived to be slower than they expect. That goes for all the metas ever in this game.

 

>

> It's like Teq had a big chance of failing if more than 40-50 players were attempting it. That would be a bad design as well.

 

No, it's like Tequatl having a chance of failing back when it launched (and for over a year after) if more than 5 showed up at south boats or south hills, because it would scale a champ to spawn, which would then overrun one or more turrets. It's like Teq having a chance to fail if people on turrets didn't use the relevant skills to break 'scales'. It's like AB failing if armors aggro the frogs into the vine. It's like (what used to happen) at Nuhoch if too many defending the rush and didn't stomp.

 

Again, it simply takes time for enough people to understand enough about a new cooperative event so that things flow smoothly. Every day, and especially weekends, there are people joining for the very first time. There's no reason to believe that they would know not to zerg, not unless it's explained carefully. Or, for visceral learners, not until they see just how bad it is when it's scaled up.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > It's not "perceived" slowdowns. It's the scaling when you get above 5 people. It's really bad. It's very simple - the more people you get there, the slower it gets.

> > Remember, that the current "widely acknowledged" limit of 10 players per boss is not only already too high (the best is likely around 7, anything above that doesn't help anymore), but is also only _half_ of the map population.

> 10 is not "too high". Depending on the players, 15 or even 20 can be fine.

Yes. can be fine. It usually isn't. Also, out of that group, half of the people there not only do not help, but they actively hinder the rest. By the very fact that they are in proximity.

And i said "10 is too high" because 10 is already beyond the point where adding new players stop helping.

 

> >

> > It's like Teq had a big chance of failing if more than 40-50 players were attempting it. That would be a bad design as well.

>

> No, it's like Tequatl having a chance of failing back when it launched (and for over a year after) if more than 5 showed up at south boats or south hills, because it would scale a champ to spawn, which would then overrun one or more turrets.

In case of teq, there _was_ a place for that overflow of players to go to. Here, there _isn't_. Whenever they go, whatever they'll do, their presence will be a detriment.

 

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> Again, it simply takes time for enough people to understand enough about a new cooperative event so that things flow smoothly. Every day, and especially weekends, there are people joining for the very first time. There's no reason to believe that they would know not to zerg, not unless it's explained carefully. Or, for visceral learners, not until they see just how bad it is when it's scaled up.

Sure, but at some point they will learn. And what they will learn will be, that no matter where they'll go, their presence will be only a hindrance. That the best use of their skill would be to not participate at all.

 

And you're saying that's not a design problem?

[Khisanth.2948]

> @"TheOrlyFactor.8341" said:

> To everyone making a big deal out of getting gold:

>

> The difference between Bronze and Gold rewards is four more champ loot bags, forty more festival tokens, and gauntlet entrance tickets.

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Boss_Blitz!_Defeat_all_the_champions_in_the_Queen%27s_Pavilion#Rewards

>

> Don't get me wrong: I'm all for trying to coordinate to get gold but if it doesn't happen, is it really THAT big of a deal to miss out on extra loot you can get easier elsewhere?

 

Faster is its own reward when you are trying to clear off "Boss of Bosses". Plenty of other ways I can get more loot faster through both solo and group content.

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > > > >

> > > > > And I honestly don't think this is a bad way of handling it. This is a **MMO**RPG. If we didn't have to meaningfully interact with one another, the game failed its genre definition.

> > > > I'd say that telling players to gtfo because your group is already over quota falls in the same category.

> > >

> > > Are you saying that this is the first event time a newly popular event is attracting people who acted like jerks in some way? Even these days, some people in some Tequatl instances react disproportionately to perceived slow downs. That's even true at AB meta, which succeeds largely on first burn even when one lane starts burning too quickly. New metas with time limits to complete them bring out the worst in some people. That alone doesn't make it a "failed design" to require that people cooperate to succeed.

> >

> > Honest question here,

> >

> > If each boss is already at the player limit before scaling gets obscene, how does one join in to get credit without adversely affecting other players?

> >

>

> Two ways: run in & tag _one_ boss at the beginning. Or wait in center, then tag _one_ boss when the commanders call for burn. Works well.

 

Ok.

 

Im not sure how much fun standing around inthe center would be for me. On the other hand I would hate to think that my attempts to join in the fun and participate were adversely affecting others. I guess I will just bow out of participating in this aspect of the festival at this point.

[Carighan.6758]

I find it fascinating this is such a big deal. Gold Boss Blitz is really **not** hard to do. Even with 15-20 on a single boss, which due to the tiny map-cap; is unrealistic if people are actually spreading out.

 

The bigger problem is that while a competent player with raid experience given enough buffs might deal 25k-30k damage easily on these, other players who only ever challenge themselves against PvP- or open-world-targets and don't optimize for damage might deal 2k-3k. So yeah.

 

Put 20 players on the boss of which 10 know how to DPs in PvE and you'll kill it worlds faster than with 10 randoms, guaranteed. The scaling isn't actually that brutal until 30+ are at a boss, and then it's mostly a problem on those which rely on visual tells like Sparcus.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> >

> > Two ways: run in & tag _one_ boss at the beginning. Or wait in center, then tag _one_ boss when the commanders call for burn. Works well.

>

> Ok.

>

> Im not sure how much fun standing around inthe center would be for me. On the other hand I would hate to think that my attempts to join in the fun and participate were adversely affecting others. I guess I will just bow out of participating in this aspect of the festival at this point.

 

I'm not sure how much fun standing in the center, then running in at the last second to try to tag would be for anyone. It sounds like the consolation prize of being subbed in during 2nd half stoppage time. Oh boy! Cue champagne cork popping sound.

[Khisanth.2948]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> I find it fascinating this is such a big deal. Gold Boss Blitz is really **not** hard to do. Even with 15-20 on a single boss, which due to the tiny map-cap; is unrealistic if people are actually spreading out.

>

> The bigger problem is that while a competent player with raid experience given enough buffs might deal 25k-30k damage easily on these, other players who only ever challenge themselves against PvP- or open-world-targets and don't optimize for damage might deal 2k-3k. So yeah.

>

> Put 20 players on the boss of which 10 know how to DPs in PvE and you'll kill it worlds faster than with 10 randoms, guaranteed. The scaling isn't actually that brutal until 30+ are at a boss, and then it's mostly a problem on those which rely on visual tells like Sparcus.

 

2k-3k? I think you are a bit overly optimistic.

 

If everyone in a group of 10 actually did 2k DPS every Boss Blitz would be gold.

 

[Artemis Thuras.8795]

> @"Boogiepop Void.6473" said:

> more than 60 people (out of 250 who could be on the map) were doing it.

 

I don't think you can fit anything close to 250 people in the map for boss blitz..

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Boogiepop Void.6473" said:

> > @"Warscythes.9307" said:

> > I don't understand. The original problem was that you don't want people here so you don't compete for the loot. Boss blitz doesn't have a problem with that. Your loot is the same, in fact your own loot will be worse if you run around and zerg. It doesn't go against anything since you are not competing for rewards. You are all working together towards the same thing.

>

> But it's not. More people SEVERELY scale the bosses, to the point where you can't get gold and full rewards. You actively want people to leave in order to not scale the bosses up. It might not be direct competition, but it's the same issue: you want to claim the event for your team and actively hate and yell at people who come and "ruin" your run for full loot.

 

OK .. but that's not against the pillar of the game; to remove spawn-ownership. You're title is misleading.

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Boogiepop Void.6473" said:

> > > @"Warscythes.9307" said:

> > > I don't understand. The original problem was that you don't want people here so you don't compete for the loot. Boss blitz doesn't have a problem with that. Your loot is the same, in fact your own loot will be worse if you run around and zerg. It doesn't go against anything since you are not competing for rewards. You are all working together towards the same thing.

> >

> > But it's not. More people SEVERELY scale the bosses, to the point where you can't get gold and full rewards. You actively want people to leave in order to not scale the bosses up. It might not be direct competition, but it's the same issue: you want to claim the event for your team and actively hate and yell at people who come and "ruin" your run for full loot.

>

> OK .. but that's not against the pillar of the game; to remove spawn-ownership. You're title is misleading.

 

I dont know if it is a pillar of the game to me, but perhaps to others, but one of the points devs made about the game was that players should be happy (or at least not resent) to see other players come along and jump in to an event or encounter. The nature of the boss blitz does seem to run counter to that.

[Obtena.7952]

We have seen boss scale since as far as I can remember though ... so to me what's happening here isn't exceptional to the game, it's standard. I can't comment on how bad the boss scaling is in this event, but it's not impossible to do the event. The thread seems to be complaining about one thing and blaming its cause on something rather unrelated.

 

If the event scales poorly, OK then ... but it's not running against any kind of 'game pillar'. If anything, the fact that the boss does scale with players is INDICATIVE of the 'no spawn ownership' game pillar.

[juhani.5361]

> @"Reiver.5461" said:

> > @"GDchiaScrub.3241" said:

> > I have yet to run across this issue. So I guess we're both anecdotal. o.o

>

> You missed the guy who spent 5 minutes ranting because his DPS meter was showing how little damage some people were doing and they didn't know anything about CC. Also that they weren't listening in chat and how he wasn't going to tag up so that he could then spend time during the battle monitoring and berating people for not doing what he thinks they should have been doing and not having a meta build. This after we missed gold by about 10 seconds due to an unlucky BB healing turret spawn.

>

> This is a way out example, thought the guy was going to stroke out, but the knives can come out at times.

>

> What people need to bear in mind is that the festival is open to all. AB for example you generally have an idea of game mechanics by the time you make it that far so you should be able to figure it out when the octo gets low and a hold gets called. For some people in the pavilion this might be their first boss fight and they might not know what CC is.

>

> In any case if the festival stresses you out this much, you might want enjoy the summer, specially if you're in the UK at the moment :)

 

Wait, people are bringing DPS meters to a _festival event_? Wow. Of all the things I've read on this forum, this one stands out as the most ludicrous.

 

I think that player needs to take a nice boat ride around the cliffs :p

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> We have seen boss scale since as far as I can remember though ... so to me what's happening here isn't exceptional to the game, it's standard. I can't comment on how bad the boss scaling is in this event, but it's not impossible to do the event. The thread seems to be complaining about one thing and blaming its cause on something rather unrelated.

>

> If the event scales poorly, OK then ... but it's not running against any kind of 'game pillar'. If anything, the fact that the boss does scale with players is INDICATIVE of the 'no spawn ownership' game pillar.

 

Again, the matter of systems that foster player regret when other players join in because by doing so they are reducing one's rewards seems counter to what the devs said they were aiming for.

 

As it stands players wandering by and jumping in on a boss fight in this event are reducing everyone else's rewards in a manner not too dissimilar from kill stealing in other games. The difference is one of degree.

[zealex.9410]

Having events that require more than zerg and forget goes against what the game is about? Why?

[yusayu.3629]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> We have seen boss scale since as far as I can remember though ... so to me what's happening here isn't exceptional to the game, it's standard. I can't comment on how bad the boss scaling is in this event, but it's not impossible to do the event. The thread seems to be complaining about one thing and blaming its cause on something rather unrelated.

>

> If the event scales poorly, OK then ... but it's not running against any kind of 'game pillar'. If anything, the fact that the boss does scale with players is INDICATIVE of the 'no spawn ownership' game pillar.

 

If the event wasn't time-based - sure. But too many people that don't pull their weight, and the event will literally be impossible to complete for gold time. Regardless of how good you are. It might be the same with other events like Bounty Hunts, but only rarely have I seen a Bounty Hunt fail due to too many players. Bounty Hunt scaling is kind of OK. Boss Blitz scaling isn't.

 

Or just allow people to open their private map instance, only allowing invited players into it. Either way works fine.

[Carighan.6758]

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> Again, the matter of systems that foster player regret when other players join in because by doing so they are reducing one's rewards seems counter to what the devs said they were aiming for.

 

This is **not** unique to boss blitz however.

 

For any given event relying on killing a mob, say, some of the Champs in Auric Basin come to mind, more players upscale the boss. Enough, and you might not kill it before the timer runs out -> other players cost you your reward.

 

In fact, **this has been that way on any champ event, since release**.

 

Although, as I posted before: Even if everyone just **barely** knows how to DPS on their character, you can win this even with ludicrous overstacking (say 40+ on one boss and 5 each on the others, np, just need the 40 to do 4k-5k damage, which is a **sixth** of what you should be doing in any case).

[Chay.7852]

> @"juhani.5361" said:

> > @"Reiver.5461" said:

> > > @"GDchiaScrub.3241" said:

> > > I have yet to run across this issue. So I guess we're both anecdotal. o.o

> >

> > You missed the guy who spent 5 minutes ranting because his DPS meter was showing how little damage some people were doing and they didn't know anything about CC. Also that they weren't listening in chat and how he wasn't going to tag up so that he could then spend time during the battle monitoring and berating people for not doing what he thinks they should have been doing and not having a meta build. This after we missed gold by about 10 seconds due to an unlucky BB healing turret spawn.

> >

> > This is a way out example, thought the guy was going to stroke out, but the knives can come out at times.

> >

> > What people need to bear in mind is that the festival is open to all. AB for example you generally have an idea of game mechanics by the time you make it that far so you should be able to figure it out when the octo gets low and a hold gets called. For some people in the pavilion this might be their first boss fight and they might not know what CC is.

> >

> > In any case if the festival stresses you out this much, you might want enjoy the summer, specially if you're in the UK at the moment :)

>

> Wait, people are bringing DPS meters to a _festival event_? Wow. Of all the things I've read on this forum, this one stands out as the most ludicrous.

>

> I think that player needs to take a nice boat ride around the cliffs :p

 

True that :)

 

Half of the posts here deal about DPS - this only half of the boss-blitz story. Yes, you need some good DPS but this is neither a raid boss nor the golem. Ppl play more arcdps these days than the game itself - sad but true story.

 

I used to play this event back then with no power creep and no elite specializations and we still managed to get gold even on only per map chat organized maps. There were some ts-only maps, where things went faster cause ppl used to donate fast and the groups were better optimized but still... It was possible and happened almost all the time with only a little bit of communication and cooperation.

 

The problem today is that most of the ppl don't use the proper skills for each boss, not join with the proper class etc. Don't misunderstand me, every class is good and useful but maybe not on every boss. Yesterday i tried to help out tagging for Pyro where you need tons of reflects _and_ **projectile absorbs**. Asked for guardians (since they have enough of both) and got only necros (which are very nice at Sparcus for example) and ranger (i really love soulbeast and enjoy playing it - but not at Pyro ;) )

 

Similar thing today at Sparcus (where you should avoid using projectiles and bring some reflects and stun breaker) - our commander, a hammer rev, played some ping-pong with Sparky while having magnetic aura from me. This boss can be fighted best at mid range imo.

 

Healing turret at Boom Boom... more important to be destroyed than bringing top dps on the boss only.

 

And so on...

 

tl:dr: Split, learn the mechanics of each boss and bring useful classes with useful skills for each of them.

[juhani.5361]

> @"Chay.7852" said:

> > @"juhani.5361" said:

> > > @"Reiver.5461" said:

> > > > @"GDchiaScrub.3241" said:

> > > > I have yet to run across this issue. So I guess we're both anecdotal. o.o

> > >

> > > You missed the guy who spent 5 minutes ranting because his DPS meter was showing how little damage some people were doing and they didn't know anything about CC. Also that they weren't listening in chat and how he wasn't going to tag up so that he could then spend time during the battle monitoring and berating people for not doing what he thinks they should have been doing and not having a meta build. This after we missed gold by about 10 seconds due to an unlucky BB healing turret spawn.

> > >

> > > This is a way out example, thought the guy was going to stroke out, but the knives can come out at times.

> > >

> > > What people need to bear in mind is that the festival is open to all. AB for example you generally have an idea of game mechanics by the time you make it that far so you should be able to figure it out when the octo gets low and a hold gets called. For some people in the pavilion this might be their first boss fight and they might not know what CC is.

> > >

> > > In any case if the festival stresses you out this much, you might want enjoy the summer, specially if you're in the UK at the moment :)

> >

> > Wait, people are bringing DPS meters to a _festival event_? Wow. Of all the things I've read on this forum, this one stands out as the most ludicrous.

> >

> > I think that player needs to take a nice boat ride around the cliffs :p

>

> True that :)

>

> Half of the posts here deal about DPS - this only half of the boss-blitz story. Yes, you need some good DPS but this is neither a raid boss nor the golem. Ppl play more arcdps these days than the game itself - sad but true story.

>

> I used to play this event back then with no power creep and no elite specializations and we still managed to get gold even on only per map chat organized maps. There were some ts-only maps, where things went faster cause ppl used to donate fast and the groups were better optimized but still... It was possible and happened almost all the time with only a little bit of communication and cooperation.

>

> The problem today is that most of the ppl don't use the proper skills for each boss, not join with the proper class etc. Don't misunderstand me, every class is good and useful but maybe not on every boss. Yesterday i tried to help out tagging for Pyro where you need tons of reflects _and_ **projectile absorbs**. Asked for guardians (since they have enough of both) and got only necros (which are very nice at Sparcus for example) and ranger (i really love soulbeast and enjoy playing it - but not at Pyro ;) )

>

> Similar thing today at Sparcus (where you should avoid using projectiles and bring some reflects and stun breaker) - our commander, a hammer rev, played some ping-pong with Sparky while having magnetic aura from me. This boss can be fighted best at mid range imo.

>

> Healing turret at Boom Boom... more important to be destroyed than bringing top dps on the boss only.

>

> And so on...

>

> tl:dr: Split, learn the mechanics of each boss and bring useful classes with useful skills for each of them.

 

Sorry, I'm having another one of those Juhani's-from-Mars-The-Rest-of-the Forum-Isn't moments ;) I actually meant totally the opposite of what you're saying.

 

The OP has a major point-- festivals are supposed to be open celebrations for _everyone_ and the event design seems to encourage the opposite kind of mindset. DPS meters and the like don't belong in these scenarios. Imagine you're Joe or Joelle Newbie, a fresh level 10 or 15 who's come out of the starter area and sees that there's a new festival going on. Heck, it's in their sidebar-- and if they've made a new human character that's probably their daily. They come to the Pavilion through the little transporter thingie and see there's an event happening. They follow other players who seem to know where they're going and see a boss. So they play it like some of the smaller area minibosses or their starter world boss. Then some person running a DPS meter chews them out because they're not "doing the mechanics" or putting out "enough damage."

 

So now Joe(lle) Newbie has now had his or her day ruined by some jerk. Or, say, Juhani The Rampant Casual Who Usually Still Does Her Part As Best She Can. Is this really what we want happening during a festival? A celebration? Seems like it runs completely counter to the whole spirit of having festivals.

 

My own Boss Blitz experiment happened early on the first day when I thought like everyone else does in these things that you finished your boss, then moved on to the next. The event failed, I battled six things. I unlocked a bunch of admission tickets that I ended up selling because I couldn't find the solo champ vendor thingie. I decided it wasn't for me. Now if I'd had someone railing at me and the rest of the map for not being up to snuff at a _festival event_, I'd probably have quit the festival altogether after blocking them and their ilk. <--- Just clarifying here-- I haven't been stinking up anyone else's blitz events. You're all safe ;)

[Etria.3642]

I can tell you that a casual blob of 40 CANNOT kill one boss by gold. Or silver. Not all bosses. One. In fact the seven times I've done this so far a huge zerg has taken forever to kill one boss six times. The seventh I must have been on an over flow map because the five of us went from boss to boss to boss (same five) and while we also got bronze it felt more satisfying at least.

 

The huge zerg ones generally had this: four bosses with no one on them at all, one with about six(this boss always dies first), and a tag with a huge amount of people. When the first boss dies, usually about mid silver, it then takes SO LONG for the zerg one to die.

 

I've tried sitting in the middle and reading but that isn't fun. I can't solo one of the four and I don't want to scale up the boss the smaller group is effectively fighting. May as well zerg. Two more times for the achievement and I can leave this wretched event alone.

[Maikimaik.1974]

Well, I want the map to win gold, not just me. If somebody tells me I have to go to another boss because there are already too many people at one, I'm happy to leave.

I don't really see the issue here.

[juhani.5361]

> @"Maikimaik.1974" said:

> Well, I want the map to win gold, not just me. If somebody tells me I have to go to another boss because there are already too many people at one, I'm happy to leave.

> I don't really see the issue here.

 

Me either ;) I'm just reading some of the weird assertions in this thread and **headdesk** Now that I know what's supposed to be going on with the event, I'll keep an eye out for any attempts at organization. I was just on the map to kill some random mobs for the "Watchwork Knight" daily, only to come across a blitz that was doing the zerg thing. I jumped in later because, why not? It had already failed when I joined.

 

I'm sure not going to jump on some "specialty" I probably don't have leveled. I'm not spending a billion gold on food either. My longbow, my rabid gear/viper trinkets and my gazelle/jacaranda are going to have to be enough.

 

In the immortal words of Salman Khan, "Just chill, chill, just chill."