Taking damage while stealthed

[Faux Play.6104]

> @"Pyraxy.1902" said:

> Considering the fact that they just changed how invulnerability works last patch (It no longer pulses condition damage while in the channeled skill),

>

> Why not fix another equally annoying problem?

>

> That being the fact that stealthed players do not get revealed upon taking damage, why is it that people who are predictable in stealth don't get punished for their playstyle?

>

> I feel like I don't need to go in depth with this question as it's not that complicated.

>

> Ignore any crying from thief mains on this thread.

 

How about on attacking. If someone dodges you, you are revealed.

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @"Pyraxy.1902" said:

> Ignore any crying from thief mains on this thread.

 

# BEWARE!!!

If, whenever you see a Thief speaking, you automatically hear [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjkNNDuAb9A) or [this](

) or [this](

), you may be suffering from TDS (Thief Derangement Syndrome)... and/or you are an ANet employee.

 

Should we make Thiefdom a political party now? We can all have **(T)** next to our names! :-D

 

> That being the fact that stealthed players do not get revealed upon taking damage

 

Why not grant a player Stealth whenever they hit Stealthed player instead?

 

> why is it that people who are predictable in stealth don't get punished for their playstyle?

 

If the people in Stealth are predictable, then why not punish them yourself?

 

And what playstyle? The playstyle of reflex-oriented active defense? Or the low-health Glass Cannon that deals relatively mediocre damage?

 

Heck, why not punish every playstyle if they are predictable? What if Full Counter or Endure/Defy Pain auto-killed a Warrior if no opponent hit it through the duration? What if each pulse of a Scourge's AoEs damaged itself if no enemy stepped into it?

 

> @"Arioch.4810" said:

> "Here, show us on this doll where the bad BAD thief touched you from stealth"

> xD

 

This is more than likely the truth. It should be part of the #METOO movement. Maybe #THIEFTOO instead???

 

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> That "thief without stealth" is squishy is just a meme at this point. With core d/p or d/d? Sure, with DD or with other weaponsets? Not by a mile.

 

Every Thief is squishy by nature. Stealth and evasions simply allow avoidance from getting squished. Mobility only allows escapes.

 

Daredevil makes a Thief less squishy how? By adding a third dodge? By adding a single block utility? It's still squishy, it's just harder to pin down.

 

A Thief CANNOT sustain damage relative to other professions. The Thief is extremely limited in ways that it can avoid damage WHILE applying damage. Until either it gains more ability to sustain damage or to apply pressure while simultaneously avoiding pressure, it will remain effectively squishy.

 

> You even get a ton of benefits for using stealth!

 

In Conquest, it is the exact opposite.

 

> @"Rufo.3716" said:

> Now all a thief has to do is dodge roll and they gain stealth.

 

Specifically, only a Deadeye with a Rifle can gain Stealth on simply a dodge roll.

[Solidaris.5423]

To be honest the only thing I would see for stealth that it cannot be stacked by one person. Alone you could only have maximum 4 second (traited 5 second) stealth.

To get more you would need allies sharing stealth?

Either that or some skills should reveal stealthed players? Maybe if the stealthed player is blinded they are revealed? Dunno I just started learning Thief and the only thing I am good with it is stealthing up and running away X)

[Crab Fear.1624]

Bad news guys, they are not going to rework stealth in any way. If they did, all the classes that have hard stealth utilities and weapon skills would require a rework to compensate. It's been in the game since inception.

 

They may very well do some nerfing to DE stealth, but they will need to compensate. Stealth is literally the only thing that DE has. If you think otherwise, play a ranked game on DE without snipers cover trait, or shadow meld, or using the rifle 4 combo. Your other weapon set can not be d/p. Use zero stealth, just use your other "defenses". Let us know how it works out for ya.

[Vornollo.5182]

I'll just leave this very revealing piece of information here.

 

[RedShark.9548]

> @"Pyraxy.1902" said:

> Considering the fact that they just changed how invulnerability works last patch (It no longer pulses condition damage while in the channeled skill),

>

> Why not fix another equally annoying problem?

>

> That being the fact that stealthed players do not get revealed upon taking damage, why is it that people who are predictable in stealth don't get punished for their playstyle?

>

> I feel like I don't need to go in depth with this question as it's not that complicated.

>

> Ignore any crying from thief mains on this thread.

 

i want ppl to be destealthed when you actively block or dodge their backstab, its frustrating to dodge exactly the moment he attempts to backstab and then he just get another go at it because hes still in stealth

if someone tries to stab you with a knife and you evade it it should be very obvious that somethings going on, same when i raise a shield and someone hacks with his dagger into it multiple times alone the sound of dagger into shield would be revealing enough

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @"RedShark.9548" said:

> i want ppl to be destealthed when you actively block or dodge their backstab, its frustrating to dodge exactly the moment he attempts to backstab and then he just get another go at it because hes still in stealth

 

For the Thief, it may very well be even more infuriating these days. If he misses a Backstab, he's stuck twiddling his thumbs for another full second... usually running out of Stealth before he can get another Backstab off.

 

Speaking of which, when can we get a manual de-Stealth/self-Reveal mechanic? There are times I don't want to be in Stealth for 20 seconds when I only need 12, yet there's nothing around that will Reveal me. The Rifle is the only method I can think of with Death's Judgement.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> Is not really a punishment, it's a drawback, like every skill should have, ANet knew this on GW1 that's why it was so sucessfull balancewise, somehow ANet decided to take a metricton of steps back.

>

> Stealth: on some games you move slower while on stealth, on others, like the OP proposed, you get out of stealth as soon as you take damage, on others you have limited access to stealth on huge CD's.

> In this game? Zero. You even get a ton of benefits for using stealth!

 

Thing is though is that stealth is not bound to 1 class/build and EVERYONE can either combo of a field or just get shared stealth from someone else. Other games only 1 class gets it so that why I guess it's "balanced" in a way where you move slower, take dmg while moving ext.

[RedShark.9548]

> @"Kageseigi.2150" said:

> > @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > i want ppl to be destealthed when you actively block or dodge their backstab, its frustrating to dodge exactly the moment he attempts to backstab and then he just get another go at it because hes still in stealth

>

> For the Thief, it may very well be even more infuriating these days. If he misses a Backstab, he's stuck twiddling his thumbs for another full second... usually running out of Stealth before he can get another Backstab off.

>

> Speaking of which, when can we get a manual de-Stealth/self-Reveal mechanic? There are times I don't want to be in Stealth for 20 seconds when I only need 12, yet there's nothing around that will Reveal me. The Rifle is the only method I can think of with Death's Judgement.

 

cant you just use another skill ? its not like all the other skills are blocked while in stealth, you can still interrupt with pistol, jump onto them with it etc

[Zawn.9647]

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

> While I understand frustration from stealth gameplay, this would entirely remove stealth as a viable tactic. That's even less desirable. We could argue that more CC should reveal (or apply it), but plain damage definitely not.

 

It wouldnt. People can stealth before combat, people can shortbow 5/shadowstep far away so they can stealth. This fix would only remove the option to people stealthing in your face while you're swinging your weapon in their flesh :P

[MUDse.7623]

> @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > @"Kageseigi.2150" said:

> > > @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > > i want ppl to be destealthed when you actively block or dodge their backstab, its frustrating to dodge exactly the moment he attempts to backstab and then he just get another go at it because hes still in stealth

> >

> > For the Thief, it may very well be even more infuriating these days. If he misses a Backstab, he's stuck twiddling his thumbs for another full second... usually running out of Stealth before he can get another Backstab off.

> >

> > Speaking of which, when can we get a manual de-Stealth/self-Reveal mechanic? There are times I don't want to be in Stealth for 20 seconds when I only need 12, yet there's nothing around that will Reveal me. The Rifle is the only method I can think of with Death's Judgement.

>

> cant you just use another skill ? its not like all the other skills are blocked while in stealth, you can still interrupt with pistol, jump onto them with it etc

 

a 1s selfreveal would be better as reveals overwrite eachother so you could reduce the duration of all reveals :3

[RedShark.9548]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > > @"Kageseigi.2150" said:

> > > > @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > > > i want ppl to be destealthed when you actively block or dodge their backstab, its frustrating to dodge exactly the moment he attempts to backstab and then he just get another go at it because hes still in stealth

> > >

> > > For the Thief, it may very well be even more infuriating these days. If he misses a Backstab, he's stuck twiddling his thumbs for another full second... usually running out of Stealth before he can get another Backstab off.

> > >

> > > Speaking of which, when can we get a manual de-Stealth/self-Reveal mechanic? There are times I don't want to be in Stealth for 20 seconds when I only need 12, yet there's nothing around that will Reveal me. The Rifle is the only method I can think of with Death's Judgement.

> >

> > cant you just use another skill ? its not like all the other skills are blocked while in stealth, you can still interrupt with pistol, jump onto them with it etc

>

> a 1s selfreveal would be better as reveals overwrite eachother so you could reduce the duration of all reveals :3

 

thats not what hes asking for, he wants to destealth after missing his backstab, to not stand around doing nothing, a selfreveal would only be useable while in stealth

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > > Is not really a punishment, it's a drawback, like every skill should have, ANet knew this on GW1 that's why it was so sucessfull balancewise, somehow ANet decided to take a metricton of steps back.

> > > >

> > > > Stealth: on some games you move slower while on stealth, on others, like the OP proposed, you get out of stealth as soon as you take damage, on others you have limited access to stealth on huge CD's.

> > > > In this game? Zero. You even get a ton of benefits for using stealth!

> > >

> > > In all of those other games, the classes are designed around that version of stealth. WoW rogues are significantly tankier out of stealth than GW2 thieves are, for example.

> > >

> > > In GW2, classes are designed around how stealth works in the game. It's like saying warrior sucks compared to thief because thief has stealth and warrior doesn't - it's totally ignoring...pretty much the rest of the game. You don't seem to be aware of how thief works and what they DON'T have - all you see (or don't see, since...stealth xD) is just their access to stealth.

> > >

> > > Perhaps strive to achieve a more knowledgeable perspective and then make an informed suggestion on how it might be changed.

> >

> > Actually I've a thief and my main is a mesmer, so i'm pretty sure I know about how stealth works, even if I despise it deeply, and not only in this game but in every game.

> > Already said in other thread, stealth let's you get away with bad positioning, same with shadowsteps, the second one was the beginning of gw1 downfall.

> >

> > That "thief without stealth" is squishy is just a meme at this point. With core d/p or d/d? Sure, with DD or with other weaponsets? Not by a mile.

>

> I main a thief and have a mesmer. Doesn't mean I'm suddenly 100% accurate and can accurately foresee how changing a primary class mechanic will influence all other aspects of the class. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying something like you haven't even bothered to read the tooltips of stealth, what skills have it, etc. I mean more in-depth. Thief is - whether badly or well - balanced around stealth.

>

> Stealth most certainly does not let you get away with bad positioning, nor do shadowsteps. Your average thief has, what...some combination of shortbow 5, standing rifle 4, and the utility skill (which only condi cleanses if you use the teleport back...you can can either escape or cleanse, not both). I do think that dealing with stealth could use a bit more interaction from the person not in stealth, and then sit back and see how it plays out a bit.

>

> Mind, I'm mostly referring to DE here, as that seems to be the most recent 'flavor of the forums' lately.

>

> So yes, this is definitely the sort of thing you need to go in depth for to make suggestions about (as you stated in your OP saying you didn't feel the need to since it was simple...and it's not).

 

Thief isn't balanced around stealth. Only certain builds use it.

Stealth let's you reposition at ease.

Shadowsteps avoid completely the position issue, and with the plus that you can get by any danger in order to get to the spot you wish to be, as I said in the previous post, shadowsteps were the beginning of GW1's pvp end, there were numerous threads at the time concerning how bad for the game shadowsteps were.

Is GW2 different? Yes, it is, but shadowsteps brought the same problems.

 

I'm not referring to DE in particular but thief as a whole.

DE is a different matter, spammable stealth + good mobility + insane ranged damage, you only have a tiny window to deal damage to a DE.

 

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > Is not really a punishment, it's a drawback, like every skill should have, ANet knew this on GW1 that's why it was so sucessfull balancewise, somehow ANet decided to take a metricton of steps back.

> >

> > Stealth: on some games you move slower while on stealth, on others, like the OP proposed, you get out of stealth as soon as you take damage, on others you have limited access to stealth on huge CD's.

> > In this game? Zero. You even get a ton of benefits for using stealth!

>

> Thing is though is that stealth is not bound to 1 class/build and EVERYONE can either combo of a field or just get shared stealth from someone else. Other games only 1 class gets it so that why I guess it's "balanced" in a way where you move slower, take dmg while moving ext.

 

Indeed but some professions have more access to stealth than others but even if it was not the case, stealth wouldn't suddenly become a good and healthy mechanic.

[Crab Fear.1624]

Remove stealth? Who does that directly affect?:

* thief

* mesmer

* ranger

* engineer

 

Remove shadow step type skills, who does that directly affect?:

* thief

* mesmer

* revenant

* ranger(soul beast when merged)

* guardian

* elementalist

* necro?

 

Daily threads coming out asking for thief nerfs, now to the point of esentially wanting them removed from the game.

 

Sorry, nope. Thief is too secksy, too cool, and too popular of a class.

 

Way toooo secksy

[babazhook.6805]

> @"Vornollo.5182" said:

> I'll just leave this very revealing piece of information here.

>

 

Don't forget the taunts

[Vornollo.5182]

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > @"Vornollo.5182" said:

> > I'll just leave this very revealing piece of information here.

> >

>

> Don't forget the taunts

 

Oh, you're such a tease...

[geist.9173]

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> In all of those other games, the classes are designed around that version of stealth. WoW rogues are significantly tankier out of stealth than GW2 thieves are, for example.

 

No, they are not. They have less options to avoid damage than a bad build Gw2 thief.

A WoW rogue has one really defensive CD which is Evasion and which has a longer cd. He has Cloak of Shadows, which only removes magic debuffs, no bleeding and a sprint which doesn't make him immune vs cc or slows and Shadowstep which needs a player target you can jump to

That's the toolkit you have.

 

That's a lot worse than a GW2 thief.

 

 

[babazhook.6805]

>I'm not referring to DE in particular but thief as a whole.

>DE is a different matter, spammable stealth + good mobility + insane ranged damage, you only have a tiny window to deal damage to a DE.

 

The window to inflict damage is not as tiny as you suggest. Unless in SA thief takes full damage while stealthed. AOE, Cleave and channeled attacks all work on a stealthed thief. A Dodge spamming opponent has less opportunity to inflict damage on as does an opponent using chained blocks/invulns and he like as dodges blocks and invulns block all damage, something stealth does not do.

 

I would point out that due to sustain and glass nature the opportunity for a stealthing thief to inflict damage is also low. That is why they have to continously reset or drop to stealth. They have to inflict damage in short sharp bursts because they are not going to last long if they are in the open swapping attacks.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > > > That would make skills like Shadow Refuge (teef), Veil (Mesmer), Smoke cloud (Smokescale - Ranger), Stealth Gyro (Engi) and others useless and irrevelent. AA round them and Poof....they are now useless.

> > >

> > > Yeah but, to be fair, stealth is no fair and people who use it should be punished.

> > >

> >

> > People who use stealth should not be punished, stealth is meant to be used has an advantage over targets, not a punishment to who casts it......

> >

> > The issue with gw2 stealth system is that is made towards gimmick and skilless gamers, reason they cant be that much punished over bad usage of stealth system since they are already punished due the bad working skills to hit thief's trough stealth aka part of gimmick based gameplay.

> >

> > Stealth is bad in this game, but so are the other skills.... it is easy to fix.. Anet wont do it.

>

> people who use stealth are bad, people who die to stealth are bad....

>

> come on guys, time we face the facts that were all bad here.

 

A few posts above mine i explained a solution to get a more skilled gameplay, rahter than use few gimmick tricks, skills are broken cause they dont loose target and keep damage thief trough stealh, while stealth it is possible to kills a target before rendering to the other client.

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @"RedShark.9548" said:

> cant you just use another skill ? its not like all the other skills are blocked while in stealth, you can still interrupt with pistol, jump onto them with it etc

 

Yes, if you have enough initiative, though that isn't always the case... Stealth can be very expensive, especially with Dagger/Pistol.

 

It's also a judgment call if it's worth it. You just missed a Backstab, so the target is probably defensive. Do you want to risk the initiative while you're relatively safer in Stealth when you will need it more when you're visible? Do you want to lock yourself out of Stealth for 3-4 seconds just to get a hit instead of a big hit? If the Stealth Attack (Backstab) would just flip back to the auto-attack chain for the 1-second cooldown, it would at least allow a Thief to maintain pressure without having to use even more initiative. As it is now, you're stuck between a rock and a hard place.

[Vagrant.7206]

There should be more ways to apply revealed, but this is not the way.

 

Personally, I like an idea from Team Fortress 2: Light the spy on fire!

 


 

It's time to #MakeFlamethrowersReveal

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> There should be more ways to apply revealed, but this is not the way.

>

> Personally, I like an idea from Team Fortress 2: Light the spy on fire!

>

> 

>

> It's time to #MakeFlamethrowersReveal

 

Haha, I thought Engineers already have that with [Flamethrower](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flamethrower) and [Lock On](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lock_On) :-P

[rng.1024]

There's a simply fix to separate good stealth players from bad:

 

- Reveal on dodge (only if stealthed)

 

We probably should make movement speed 50% baseline in stealth though.

[Rodzynald.5897]

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

> While I understand frustration from stealth gameplay, this would entirely remove stealth as a viable tactic. That's even less desirable. We could argue that more CC should reveal (or apply it), but plain damage definitely not.

 

Sooo... it would take more skill to use stealth, is that what you wanted to say? You do realise that currently it's a free on demand combat reset? I am fairly sure, that with so little reveal and so much stealth application tools, it would be nothing but reasonable to make even the most basic damage break stealth. I would gladly give thieves and mesmers more tools to survive or give them any other tool beside broken mobility and invisibility application, to make them stand more punishment in combat.

Is there any other game that offers a class so much mobility on top of access to invisibility? Becasue so far stealth and mobility in other MMORPG's has to be used with some sort of tactical thought behind it, instead of poking and escaping until the target is dead, because the mechanic allows you to do so in any given moment without any serious drawbacks other than being squishy.

[Menyus.4610]

Damn im so happy that after 4000 hours i dropped thief, this thread and many others on this forum proves that its the community that wants to delete this class, i mean for a 3 seconds stealth you have to use half of your initiative pool, this time you can be interrupted twice, and pray that the enemy wont evade or block or miss your attack and sending it on a 1.5 seconds cd, also you want more reveal? Or punishment for using stealth wow, a channeled skill already tracks the target while in stealth, a thief can die in mid while in stealth if he gets caught by an aoe bomb, and my fav was when that mesmer guy came here with his absolutely harmfull elite mechanic and started bashing only thieves wow, mirage is op no problem iTS OnLTe ElLusiVe MiNd trait, thief killed you? Nerf stealth, more reveal, less dodge, too many damage reveal if i dodged his attack, thief become a med/low tier class now a true ganker of zerker eles and classes below 50% hp, and for some reason its a meta build wow, must be the 6k-7k backstab on drd, with its utterly powerful 800-2k AA with -30 range, or maybe the extremely pwoerfull mobility which is now good enough to go far get half decap and killed by a holo with Rocket boots cos while you burned you ini pool he is ready to kill you cos he only used his mobility skills that also removes impairing conditions

Anyway im now maining a ranger so lemme join the train:

*Spits on thief