Ragion.2831 Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > Necro always hit hard, question was can it be landed. Necro has had this problem since 2012. The second problem that I suspect hasnt changed (been away for some time) is how does it deal with ganks. Its why Necros moved over to conditions after it got buffed. Conditions used to be really bad. Between bad condis, not landing anything and not being able to deal with ganks, necro was quite easily the worst class in the game. It wasnt until the pre release of path of fire developer discussion that it became clear why they didnt fix much of this except buff damage across the board, they have been trying to stick to a warped sense of theme all these years. One of the devs basically confirmed this. They considered a few things that sounded pretty good but they didnt go through with it because it didnt fit in with their theme of the class. It was at this moment i began to make peace with the fact that the whole necro suggestion/rework tears that have rained down on the forums like a biblical flood all these years have been and will continue to be meaningless. The best thing is to just enjoy the class as it is if you can, play a different class or play better games. I would really like to know if the artists leave and go to another studio to work on a different game. Those guys are legendary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggityzog.7389 Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > @"Ziggityzog.7389" said: > > Axe on necro takes care of DEs. Ghastly claws tips them apart. > > Circumstantial. If you miss #2 then axe kinda lacks counter pressure. Losing to a deadeye or any range player who knows what they are doing is supposed to be normal though. That's why you hide around anything and draw them to you. If I'm a necro I won't just sit there in open range. If my axe misses it's only a few seconds to recharge lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 > @"Ragion.2831" said: > > It was at this moment i began to make peace with the fact that the whole necro suggestion/rework tears that have rained down on the forums like a biblical flood all these years have been and will continue to be meaningless. My problem with this assessment is things that have been directly suggested by the necro community have been put in the game. Especially more recently. Things like the stun break on foot in the grave. The base functionality on shouts instead of all being target based for the trait. Shroud being an offensive transformation. Shorter cast time on dagger 2, changes to death perception, reapers onslaught not stacking with quickness now granting it. Etc .All these are things directly suggested by players that are now in game. By meaningless all I can assume you mean is "cool we got this thing we have been asking for but now we want another thing but since we didn't get that yet this change we asked for and now got is completely pointless. Thanks ". Then again every class community is like this so I can't say I am surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 > @"Ziggityzog.7389" said: > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > @"Ziggityzog.7389" said: > > > Axe on necro takes care of DEs. Ghastly claws tips them apart. > > > > Circumstantial. If you miss #2 then axe kinda lacks counter pressure. Losing to a deadeye or any range player who knows what they are doing is supposed to be normal though. > > That's why you hide around anything and draw them to you. They have no reason to. There is a reason why the class that complains about thieves the most is necromancer. Has been for years and for good reason. Pretty much all manner of thieves shut necro down pretty hard when people aren't playing poorly. Besides all the "just do x/y/z" arguments are anecdotal or situational. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragion.2831 Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > @"Ragion.2831" said: > > > > It was at this moment i began to make peace with the fact that the whole necro suggestion/rework tears that have rained down on the forums like a biblical flood all these years have been and will continue to be meaningless. > > My problem with this assessment is things that have been directly suggested by the necro community have been put in the game. Especially more recently. > > Things like the stun break on foot in the grave. The base functionality on shouts instead of all being target based for the trait. Shroud being an offensive transformation. Shorter cast time on dagger 2, changes to death perception, reapers onslaught not stacking with quickness now granting it. Etc .All these are things directly suggested by players that are now in game. > > By meaningless all I can assume you mean is "cool we got this thing we have been asking for but now we want another thing but since we didn't get that yet this change we asked for and now got is completely pointless. Thanks ". Then again every class community is like this so I can't say I am surprised. I remember when the ftg stun break finally happened, to necros it was like thanksgiving and christmas happened at the same time. That change was so long overdue i was more annoyed that it took that long especially when necros for months on end were constantly violated by CCs. Aside from FTG all these changes youve mentioned happened within the past year i believe. I guess it wasnt necessary when the game was at the height of its popularity. Now that it has drastically dipped its time to find out what the players want. After no mentions on any of the suggestion thread when there were like 5 of them a day on necro forums. Practically books have been written asking Anet to address the cast times and necros lack of defenses in combat since the vanilla era. Pages and pages of traitline analysis by one of the og necros that no longer posts. He also talked at length about revamping the corruption utility skills instead of making necros place condis on themselves and then spend more time and resources converting it I personally have suggested several times that some of the utility skills should be merged (1,000 bucks they will end up doing this.) and necro should get a reveal skill on shroud if the class isnt going to get a disengage or block. After several months their response was to increase the degeneration rate on shroud. Ive also suggested that it might be better to have a utility skill category that consumes life force to solve the issue of getting kited and forced to disengage shroud to save life force only to get burst down because shroud is on cooldown. Shroud used to have a 5 sec cooldown. Their response was that it doesnt fit with the theme of the class. How long has it been since the first requests for a minions rework. Within the first 5 seconds of engagement, reaper has to use chilled to the bone because it is a glass tower. Last i checked necros have to hide early in a pvp match because no life force to sustain shroud and no defense out of it. Probably the no 1 pvp related issue necros have had for years. I could keep going. Anet in recent months may have finally decided to look at necro. But their main solution to anything necro related is buff damage. Quickness is the most substantial thing they have done to the class since FTG Because of Anets attitude towards making necessary changes Helseth ripped them in a hilarious video for taking too long to nerf Moa. And he mains mesmer. So while they may have suddenly seen the light in recent months, they created the debacle they are in. They could have saved themselves so much work just by listening.now they have to spend so much time and resources reworking things theyve already done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 > @"Ragion.2831" said: > I personally have suggested several times that some of the utility skills should be merged (1,000 bucks they will end up doing this.) and necro should get a reveal skill on shroud if the class isnt going to get a disengage or block. After several months their response was to increase the degeneration rate on shroud. Tainted Shackles has had Revealed on it for a year and a half now. Not that anyone cares because core Shroud lacks the ability to really be effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDevice.2751 Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > @"TheDevice.2751" said: > > yet DE can get away with more damage, more mobility, more escape tools and all that... please. > > And single dmg (mostly) ranged damage... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malediktus.9250 Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said: > is there damage intended? are we to assume this is what the next 4 months will be? any longbow ranger or similar seems to hardcounter nercros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggityzog.7389 Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > @"Ziggityzog.7389" said: > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > @"Ziggityzog.7389" said: > > > > Axe on necro takes care of DEs. Ghastly claws tips them apart. > > > > > > Circumstantial. If you miss #2 then axe kinda lacks counter pressure. Losing to a deadeye or any range player who knows what they are doing is supposed to be normal though. > > > > That's why you hide around anything and draw them to you. > > They have no reason to. There is a reason why the class that complains about thieves the most is necromancer. Has been for years and for good reason. Pretty much all manner of thieves shut necro down pretty hard when people aren't playing poorly. > > Besides all the "just do x/y/z" arguments are anecdotal or situational. Still yet to find a thief or de that could bring me down as a necro 1v1. De is a easy kill just use ranged and keep out of line of sight when they are behind you. Hop jump roll condi teef that lay condi down then run are easy. I'd they go melee 1 skill usually is enough to put them down. P/p thief? Just dodge so they don't regain initiative and put pressure on them since they can't run as fast. Being how I've played 95% of my almost 8k games as a necro I can take on any class just by knowing how they work. Know your enemy to defeat your enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Disgrace.4275 Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 > @"TheDevice.2751" said: > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > @"TheDevice.2751" said: > > > yet DE can get away with more damage, more mobility, more escape tools and all that... please. > > > > And single dmg (mostly) > > ranged damage... so is necro lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragion.2831 Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > @"Ragion.2831" said: > > > I personally have suggested several times that some of the utility skills should be merged (1,000 bucks they will end up doing this.) and necro should get a reveal skill on shroud if the class isnt going to get a disengage or block. After several months their response was to increase the degeneration rate on shroud. > > Tainted Shackles has had Revealed on it for a year and a half now. Not that anyone cares because core Shroud lacks the ability to really be effective. On all the shrouds. I think revealed should be put on the gm trait in spite the trait that auto casts the axe 3 skill on shroud activation and not just make it exclusive to core shroud. That revealed patch was may last year so approximately a year ago . All the necessary ideas have come up around the past year. When core shroud had any semblance of relevance on a power build it was at the same time thieves were still using shadow refuge and mesmers could go into a stealth loop. That was when putting revealed on tainted shackles would have been useful. Not now 2 expansions later when it should be on a trait to help out all the shrouds. Ive been looking at Holts pvp gameplay test of the new reaper stuff and he is very good. At first glance it does look like the quickness and ferocity stuff is helping out alot but i can't tell if its just because of his opponents or if it really is making power reaper on par with other popular builds after their own changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 > @"Coolguy.8702" said: > Agreed, everytime i see a reaper on the other team i have to swap to rifle de just to enjoy the game a bit since they ruin melee combat so much. Theor damage and chill esp need a hefty nerf The real damage gains were several patches ago when they made reaper lose all its sustain and buffed the RShroud skills by about 40% each. It used to not be oppressive at all, but then the cut reaper's sustain by over half because people demanded PvE DPS performance while in shroud. The difference you're seeing now is what happens when people play offense-based builds on the reaper. Since its damage got buffed, the coefficients are nuts. It's just got crap for sustain and no mobility which makes it extremely binary. But this is nothing new to necro; it's always been a class which pops off when it's allowed LF or sucks if ganked early. > @"Ziggityzog.7389" said: > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > @"Ziggityzog.7389" said: > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > @"Ziggityzog.7389" said: > > > > > Axe on necro takes care of DEs. Ghastly claws tips them apart. > > > > > > > > Circumstantial. If you miss #2 then axe kinda lacks counter pressure. Losing to a deadeye or any range player who knows what they are doing is supposed to be normal though. > > > > > > That's why you hide around anything and draw them to you. > > > > They have no reason to. There is a reason why the class that complains about thieves the most is necromancer. Has been for years and for good reason. Pretty much all manner of thieves shut necro down pretty hard when people aren't playing poorly. > > > > Besides all the "just do x/y/z" arguments are anecdotal or situational. > > Still yet to find a thief or de that could bring me down as a necro 1v1. De is a easy kill just use ranged and keep out of line of sight when they are behind you. Hop jump roll condi teef that lay condi down then run are easy. I'd they go melee 1 skill usually is enough to put them down. P/p thief? Just dodge so they don't regain initiative and put pressure on them since they can't run as fast. > > Being how I've played 95% of my almost 8k games as a necro I can take on any class just by knowing how they work. Know your enemy to defeat your enemy. Honestly this is what gets me about the necro community more than anything. Reaper's been able to deal with thieves since it released even when people complained about the Daredevil matchup. DE is arguably harder to deal with than Daredevil was... if they're good. It's just people refuse to learn how to fight their weak matchups and would instead rather complain. Same reason we have half the classes running around with 50% invuln uptime or 80% damage reduction. Nobody's willing to actually learn anything., and apparently ANet thinks it's good to appease that mentality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragion.2831 Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 > @"Ziggityzog.7389" said: > Still yet to find a thief or de that could bring me down as a necro 1v1. What would you do in this situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggityzog.7389 Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 > @"Ragion.2831" said: > > @"Ziggityzog.7389" said: > > Still yet to find a thief or de that could bring me down as a necro 1v1. > > What would you do in this situation? > > > Doge first round and there was a spot to pull him into at the left side of the stairs. Jump there bait closer use and grasping darkness since his p/p requires 900 ranged and my reaper with grasping darkness is at 750. Pull in finish with gs or reaper. If he decides to run follow a bit with ghastly claws at 900 ranged. Stomp and move on. Added note: why not swap to gs from axe and RIP him when you were mid behind the wall? Grasping darkness from there and gravedigger 1 hit and glass teef is done. That play out was the wrong decision and you were open for way to long for his spammy p/p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragion.2831 Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 > @"Ziggityzog.7389" said: > > @"Ragion.2831" said: > > > @"Ziggityzog.7389" said: > > > Still yet to find a thief or de that could bring me down as a necro 1v1. > > > > What would you do in this situation? > > > > > > > > Doge first round and there was a spot to pull him into at the left side of the stairs. Jump there bait closer use and grasping darkness since his p/p requires 900 ranged and my reaper with grasping darkness is at 750. Pull in finish with gs or reaper. If he decides to run follow a bit with ghastly claws at 900 ranged. > > Stomp and move on. Its a decent plan, except the thief has no reason to step that close to you if you are in that corner, experienced thieves would just shoot from the stairs or if there is an obstruction wait for you to come out or move to a different target in mid while you are out of the fight . Assuming the thief did get baited and somehow didnt evade the pull, theres the problems of shadow step. Assuming i'm reaching, the entire counter hinges on connecting 1 cc and a half decent thief can deal with that in some way shape or form. Every other class would have reacted with multiple active defenses or a port which doesnt rely on you connecting anything. I probably would have just evaded towards him and used gs 5 and gs 2 which probably wouldnt have solved anything because of stun breaks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnfall.9573 Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 "I just want everything that I deserve because I've dealt with everything that I didn't deserve" Necromancer http://uploads.xuexila.com/allimg/1701/700-1F110113H3-50.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 Nerfing reaper now would kill it.Its easily countered, since they are slow and have trouble landing a hit.If their hits are slow and don't provide impact, then there is no point.A lot of knee jerk reaction that probably isn't carefully thought out. Reaper isn't even a master at aoe things that everyone is so angry about, reaper is good at roaming and doing damage to a single person but has a short duration shroud that goes away very fast, AND quickness can be corrupted/ripped. I think this is seriously a l2p issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abazigal.3679 Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > Nerfing reaper now would kill it.Its easily countered, since they are slow and have trouble landing a hit.If their hits are slow and don't provide impact, then there is no point.A lot of knee jerk reaction that probably isn't carefully thought out. > > Reaper isn't even a master at aoe things that everyone is so angry about, reaper is good at roaming and doing damage to a single person but has a short duration shroud that goes away very fast, AND quickness can be corrupted/ripped. > > I think this is seriously a l2p issue That is true, but the point has to be thought about in my opinion. In silver/gold, most reapers do literrally roll other players in a few time because most do not know hot to play against them. Clearly a l2p issue. That being said, although the build is annoying on top level, it's ruining too many games on low level. I find it rather cheap when a single average reaper can roll so easily several average players. I think there should be tutorials on how to deal with some builds in game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 Isn't that something you learn from experience? although i do think some other stuff re quires more tells, like a lot of the attacks from mesmers need better tells, because they can instantly blow you up and 1 shot you, same with some of the deadeye ones. I mean there are maniqins of classes that use their standard abilities, like the revenant moveset and all that, but its all heart of thorns, so your encountering herald instead of renegade for instance.This won't help much vs the newer builds which have new moveset and are more powerful and have harder to discern attacks with more invulns and boonspam than ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagg.9236 Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 > @"santso.9201" said: > When do ppl learn to walk away from reaper when in shroud...+damage is all what necro has. Why does the GW2 playerbase always defend trash like this? "Oh, just kite; just walk away." Real games just let the better player beat the idiot bot (which is effectively how most builds work in GW2 because they are all brainlessmy low effort, shallow, and scripted). GW2 is not a decent game if a player can't simply destroy an incoming opponent with good aim and movement, however, most GW2 players will consistently advocate that player just get out of the way of incoming opponents. This isn't even covering the invuln crisis. Such a massive joke it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 > @"Swagg.9236" said: > > @"santso.9201" said: > > When do ppl learn to walk away from reaper when in shroud...+damage is all what necro has. > > Why does the GW2 playerbase always defend trash like this? "Oh, just kite; just walk away." Real games just let the better player beat the idiot bot (which is effectively how most builds work in GW2 because they are all brainlessmy low effort, shallow, and scripted). GW2 is not a decent game if a player can't simply destroy an incoming opponent with good aim and movement, however, most GW2 players will consistently advocate that player just get out of the way of incoming opponents. This isn't even covering the invuln crisis. Such a massive joke it is. If you don't hit hard on reaper, you don't punish players.Bad enough we can't keep up.What you want necros to roll down and die? yeah not happening. people have said in the past don't stand in the scourges aoe Don't walk into reapers shroud run away from them or kite them.There are things that have less counters to them such as i said before:Mesmers are harder to counter, thieves.I heard warriors are pretty hard too with their newest elite.If you gut the damage, necros basically have nothing anymore.On reaper form the reaper form doesn't last very long anymore because it was buffed in a certain way for pve, and for pve it still underperforms by a little, and still offers little to no support.What supprot it has others can do better such as banner slave warriors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
googel.3278 Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 nerf mesmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragion.2831 Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 I dont think people are seriously complaining about reaper. Its probably newer players. I'd heard that for some time now, its mostly newer players in pvp and a lot of the older ones left or dont play it as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 The mentality of "I must stand on the point 100% of the time even if it means standing in AoE/Cleave else I will lose the game" also doesn't help. Players will actively run into and eat huge amounts of damage just to be on point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > The mentality of "I must stand on the point 100% of the time even if it means standing in AoE/Cleave else I will lose the game" also doesn't help. Players will actively run into and eat huge amounts of damage just to be on point. No kidding. It takes time to neutralize a point, let alone take it. You do NOT have to be on a point the entire time to contest it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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