Condi Mirage Feedback [Merged]

[zoopop.5630]

Buff Mirage they need more damage multiplier imo.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"Shadow Order.7258" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > This should be in here as well:

> >

> > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67574/countless-pvp-mesmer-suggestions#latest

>

> No it shouldn't. It's a waste of that person's time. Just like most feedback is. They aren't going to do anything with mirage. The class is broken at its base level. Since they just reworked the cancer that is clone spam and mirage is designed to be slippery don't expect a change.

 

I'm guess I'm more referencing my explanation in that thread of this:

 

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> 3. **I can see that you don't pay much attention to feedback that doesn't offer balance suggestions, so I'll give my balance suggestions here and now, this way no one is confused as to quite exactly where I stand concerning "What should happen to Mirage." To start I want to make clear that I'm not so concerned with its defensive measures or mobility. I understand that Mirage was designed for that flavor. What I am concerned with, is that if it possess S-Tier defensive measures, mobility & utility, it should not also possess top damage capabilities. No class/build should have everything. In my opinion, Mirage simply needs a cut to its damage output. I believe a better balance could be achieved through changing how Infinite Horizon and Illusionary Ambush work. First let's talk Infinite Horizon. Most players would say that the fundamental problem is Mirage Cloak itself, allowing the Mirage to essentially dodge while still attacking. I think Mirage Cloak and Ambush skills are fine. I think the problem occurs with Infinite Horizon. It too strongly rewards ultra defensive gameplay, by allowing the Mirage to play 100% defensively, while allowing its clones to play defensively so they can't even be cleaved, while allowing those clones to land Ambush skills and lay down the pressure of potential Shatters. There is no other class/build in the game now or ever, that could play 100% defensively like this, while still laying down enough attrition AND burst pressure, to be able to threaten even builds that are designed to Bunker vs. conditions. That's a lot of damage reward for complete full defensive play. Other classes/builds most choose "Is it the right time to land offensive pressure? Or should I stay defensive, lay off the attack and make sure I survive?" The Mirage can do both simultaneously. Although this is obnoxious in design, I feel it is balanced up until the point where a player selects Infinite Horizon. At that point, Infinite Horizon turns an already obnoxious mechanical design into something that is too powerful not only mechanically, but also attribute tied with its no cool-down clone ambush hard damage. If it were up to me, Infinite Horizon would receive a 10 second cool-down. This would reduce the Mirage's ability to so freely & conveniently punish attackers with clone Ambush damage, each an every time the attacker chooses to go offensive instead of defensive "remember, other classes can't do both in the same way a Mirage can." With a 10 second cool down, it would mitigate the ambush damage output and force the Mirage to choose more wisely when he should or should not burn a Mirage Cloak. Now Illusionary Ambush, this skill is just too powerful in design. So not only is it an instant cast 1200 range teleport that works as either immediately shifting kiting into shatter position or for mobility disengage when using enemy targeting wisely, but it also breaks enemy target, functions as half a stun break positionally, creates Mirage Cloak, and then procs more Ambush skills. That's a lot of utility for a 20 second cool-down skill. Illusionary Ambush should be reduced to 900 range or less, and its cool-down should be increased to at least 30 seconds, maybe more. this would reduce the Mirage's ability to so freely & conveniently on demand choose whether he wants to be away from you or on top of your head. This would force the Mirage to more wisely choose if it was important to use Illusionary Ambush or not, instead of allowing him to so freely spam the long range 20 second cool-down skill. But that about sums up my balance suggestions. After Mirage is properly nerfed "no cop-out reworks", then I want to see Boonbeasts & Holosmiths get hit.**

[Vagrant.7206]

* We can talk about their ability to spam conditions and power damage like crazy, with relative impunity.

* We can talk about the number of evades, dodges, and blocks they are given access to and how this allows them to stay in a long fight while being a glass cannon.

* We can talk about how they can practically ignore CC's thanks to mirage cloak, making punishing them for screwing up worthless.

* We can talk about stealth and detargets, and how it makes combat with them unpleasant.

* We can talk about their ability to teleport great distances and skip out when things get too rough.

* We can talk about ease of play and skill floor/cap, and how rewarding the spec is for the effort.

 

But that's missing the forest for the trees. The simple truth is that condi mirage is simply DOING TOO MUCH, period. Any one of the things on the list above makes a halfway decent build, but all of the above makes it kind ridiculous. I don't want the spec nerfed into the ground, but you can't honestly play any other class and think "Yeah, condi mirage is balanced."

 

PS: I play a conversion holo, specifically designed to counter condi mirage, and it can still beat me if I screw up. I almost never get a kill because they run away first.

[kappa.2036]

The ability to dodge crucial attacks at the right time has always distinguished good players from bad players.

Dodging is - in fact- a real invulnerability if used at the right time, and is accessible to all classes. In this regard, there are specific effects that prevent dodge, like immobilize, fear and other control effects: all these factors have always balanced the fight in guild wars 2.

 

Unfortunately, the mirage ability called "mirage cloak" eludes everything I mentioned before. In fact, this ability allows the mirage not only to not worry about being knocked on the ground or immobilized, but also to use his skills while evading attacks.

We need mechanics that promote good and healthy gameplay, and THIS should be against your combat philosophy, Anet...

In my opinion, mirage cloak should not be accessible if you are stunned or immobilized, exactly like a regular dodge. And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

 

[timetopat.7921]

I feel there’s too much passive defensive abilities in the game. It makes it kind of unfun honestly. Defensive abilities should exist but they should be active things you do and not just things that are there already. I kind of liked the original gw2 pvp premise and feel we strayed pretty far from it personally .

[Odik.4587]

Ahh...sourbeast crying about mirage... What a nice view here

[Aza.2105]

All they need to do is make it so that the Mirage loses all stamina and gets the exhaustion debuff if they choose to dodge while CCed instead of using a stun breaker.

[Daishi.6027]

After I stun a mirage I just wait for them to waste their evades while I save my cooldowns so that they are open and can't use their ambush.

 

Vs more clever mirages I initiate an attack and just stow to bait them.

 

If it's a poor position I'll take the time to actively play around the illusions to reduce any of the mirage's momentum and starve them of offensive options.

 

You may not like that they can evade while stunned, but I think of it as a good opportunity to remind them of the futility of their struggles >=3

[Za Shaloc.3908]

That's how I feel when I play my Soulbeast. What again is CC?

[Daishi.6027]

I love how people seem to forget that most classes have a way to trivialize being stunned. Even as thief I'm just like "lol jk byeeeeee" *-ports way-*

[crepuscular.9047]

Anet can give Mirage all the sustain it wants, but nerf the damage to pulp, cant have both worlds

 

the state of mirage is basically a dps bunker at the moment

 

i've seen a mirage 1v4 while in WvW defending a camp, was seriously WTF

the mirage have so much sustain and damage that he easily destroyed the enemies 1 person at a time within minutes

[LazySummer.2568]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> I love how people seem to forget that most classes have a way to trivialize being stunned. Even as thief I'm just like "lol jk byeeeeee" *-ports way-*

 

being able to cast a skill or do anything thats not an explicit stunbreaker in this game is honestly just poor design and should all be removed, especially when they do damage. This includes all instant cast/teleport skills such as mesmer's shatters/jaunt/staff 2/iAmbush, thief's steal, holo's particle accelerator toolbelt skill, guardian's smite conditions, ele's electric discharge...etc, but what do i know when we are talking about a game with a stealth system that's both spammable and has no real counters as well as having some skills that are allowed to be cast backwards while running away or go through walls/z-axis when majority of skills arent allowed to do so.

[Solori.6025]

> @"kappa.2036" said:

> The ability to dodge crucial attacks at the right time has always distinguished good players from bad players.

> Dodging is - in fact- a real invulnerability if used at the right time, and is accessible to all classes. In this regard, there are specific effects that prevent dodge, like immobilize, fear and other control effects: all these factors have always balanced the fight in guild wars 2.

>

> Unfortunately, the mirage ability called "mirage cloak" eludes everything I mentioned before. In fact, this ability allows the mirage not only to not worry about being knocked on the ground or immobilized, but also to use his skills while evading attacks.

 

IF you mean while evading- is able to attack this is true.

If you mean while stunned- able to attack- this is false.

 

> We need mechanics that promote good and healthy gameplay, and THIS should be against your combat philosophy, Anet...

You do for one you do for all-

how about this.

Any skill not labeled as a stunbreak is unable to be used while controlled by stun, knockdown, knockback, pull, push, float, launch, or daze.

This means no more steal while CC'd

No more controlling your pet while CC'd

No more switching attunements while CC'd

No more inflitrators return while CC'd

Etc.

Because this would be against the combat philosophy anet never shared.

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"crepuscular.9047" said:

> Anet can give Mirage all the sustain it wants, but nerf the damage to pulp, cant have both worlds

>

> the state of mirage is basically a dps bunker at the moment

>

> i've seen a mirage 1v4 while in WvW defending a camp, was seriously kitten

> the mirage have so much sustain and damage that he easily destroyed the enemies 1 person at a time within minutes

 

I'm not saying that Mirage isn't OP, but face facts, man! If you're losing 4v1 it's because you and your friends play as effectively as cats on a keyboard treadmill.

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> > @"kappa.2036" said:

> > The ability to dodge crucial attacks at the right time has always distinguished good players from bad players.

> > Dodging is - in fact- a real invulnerability if used at the right time, and is accessible to all classes. In this regard, there are specific effects that prevent dodge, like immobilize, fear and other control effects: all these factors have always balanced the fight in guild wars 2.

> >

> > Unfortunately, the mirage ability called "mirage cloak" eludes everything I mentioned before. In fact, this ability allows the mirage not only to not worry about being knocked on the ground or immobilized, but also to use his skills while evading attacks.

>

> IF you mean while evading- is able to attack this is true.

> If you mean while stunned- able to attack- this is false.

>

> > We need mechanics that promote good and healthy gameplay, and THIS should be against your combat philosophy, Anet...

> You do for one you do for all-

> how about this.

> Any skill not labeled as a stunbreak is unable to be used while controlled by stun, knockdown, knockback, pull, push, float, launch, or daze.

> This means no more steal while CC'd

> No more controlling your pet while CC'd

> No more switching attunements while CC'd

> No more inflitrators return while CC'd

> Etc.

> Because this would be against the combat philosophy anet never shared.

>

 

I'll take it. Being able to use zerker stance on warrior while stunned is and was always kinda stupid anyways. Warror should be using it offensively but here's the catch I don't know if this logic can apply to any other class. Maybe just by "nerfing" the evade spam and make it easier to punish by making it 80% of what it was will be enough.

 

Also, you're saying you can't shatter while you're stunned? Honest question.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> I love how people seem to forget that most classes have a way to trivialize being stunned. Even as thief I'm just like "lol jk byeeeeee" *-ports way-*

 

Ported away from a node though

[BlackTruth.6813]

Yeah and at least Thief has to COMPLETELY DEFEND. They can't just shatter while stunned too, try again. Deflecting doesn't work, I'm sorry.

[Solori.6025]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > @"kappa.2036" said:

> > > The ability to dodge crucial attacks at the right time has always distinguished good players from bad players.

> > > Dodging is - in fact- a real invulnerability if used at the right time, and is accessible to all classes. In this regard, there are specific effects that prevent dodge, like immobilize, fear and other control effects: all these factors have always balanced the fight in guild wars 2.

> > >

> > > Unfortunately, the mirage ability called "mirage cloak" eludes everything I mentioned before. In fact, this ability allows the mirage not only to not worry about being knocked on the ground or immobilized, but also to use his skills while evading attacks.

> >

> > IF you mean while evading- is able to attack this is true.

> > If you mean while stunned- able to attack- this is false.

> >

> > > We need mechanics that promote good and healthy gameplay, and THIS should be against your combat philosophy, Anet...

> > You do for one you do for all-

> > how about this.

> > Any skill not labeled as a stunbreak is unable to be used while controlled by stun, knockdown, knockback, pull, push, float, launch, or daze.

> > This means no more steal while CC'd

> > No more controlling your pet while CC'd

> > No more switching attunements while CC'd

> > No more inflitrators return while CC'd

> > Etc.

> > Because this would be against the combat philosophy anet never shared.

> >

>

> I'll take it. Being able to use zerker stance on warrior while stunned is and was always kinda stupid anyways. Warror should be using it offensively but here's the catch I don't know if this logic can apply to any other class. Maybe just by "nerfing" the evade spam and make it easier to punish by making it 80% of what it was will be enough.

>

Honestly you don't evade any more or less than other classes.

Still has less evasion than a thief.

and almost the lowest vigor uptime thanks to all the nerfs.

What's honestly the biggest grip for people has been the ability to dodge while CC'd and I don't blame them, but other classes have effects while CC'd as well.

*Lets just nerf them all*

If that is really the issue, then nerf the issue for everyone.

No need to be biased right?

> Also, you're saying you can't shatter while you're stunned? Honest question.

 

You can shatter while stunned. You have been able to do that since launch IIRC.

 

Which is why I can't figure out what the "combat philosophy" that people keep harping about is, when every class has something they can use while CC'd.

 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

I liked how both thieves ignored completely the steal part on Solori's post.

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > @"kappa.2036" said:

> > > > The ability to dodge crucial attacks at the right time has always distinguished good players from bad players.

> > > > Dodging is - in fact- a real invulnerability if used at the right time, and is accessible to all classes. In this regard, there are specific effects that prevent dodge, like immobilize, fear and other control effects: all these factors have always balanced the fight in guild wars 2.

> > > >

> > > > Unfortunately, the mirage ability called "mirage cloak" eludes everything I mentioned before. In fact, this ability allows the mirage not only to not worry about being knocked on the ground or immobilized, but also to use his skills while evading attacks.

> > >

> > > IF you mean while evading- is able to attack this is true.

> > > If you mean while stunned- able to attack- this is false.

> > >

> > > > We need mechanics that promote good and healthy gameplay, and THIS should be against your combat philosophy, Anet...

> > > You do for one you do for all-

> > > how about this.

> > > Any skill not labeled as a stunbreak is unable to be used while controlled by stun, knockdown, knockback, pull, push, float, launch, or daze.

> > > This means no more steal while CC'd

> > > No more controlling your pet while CC'd

> > > No more switching attunements while CC'd

> > > No more inflitrators return while CC'd

> > > Etc.

> > > Because this would be against the combat philosophy anet never shared.

> > >

> >

> > I'll take it. Being able to use zerker stance on warrior while stunned is and was always kinda stupid anyways. Warror should be using it offensively but here's the catch I don't know if this logic can apply to any other class. Maybe just by "nerfing" the evade spam and make it easier to punish by making it 80% of what it was will be enough.

> >

> Honestly you don't evade any more or less than other classes.

> Still has less evasion than a thief.

> and almost the lowest vigor uptime thanks to all the nerfs.

> What's honestly the biggest grip for people has been the ability to dodge while CC'd and I don't blame them, but other classes have effects while CC'd as well.

> *Lets just nerf them all*

> If that is really the issue, then nerf the issue for everyone.

> No need to be biased right?

> > Also, you're saying you can't shatter while you're stunned? Honest question.

>

> You can shatter while stunned. You have been able to do that since launch IIRC.

>

> Which is why I can't figure out what the "combat philosophy" that people keep harping about is, when every class has something they can use while CC'd.

>

 

No other class can cast while dodging nor can they dodge a burst after being stunned.

(keywords being dodge and dodging)

 

Not that I needed to explain that as I'm positive you're more intelligent than what your post depicts.

[Simonoly.4352]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> After I stun a mirage I just wait for them to waste their evades while I save my cooldowns so that they are open and can't use their ambush.

>

> Vs more clever mirages I initiate an attack and just stow to bait them.

>

> If it's a poor position I'll take the time to actively play around the illusions to reduce any of the mirage's momentum and starve them of offensive options.

>

> You may not like that they can evade while stunned, but I think of it as a good opportunity to remind them of the futility of their struggles >=3

 

Whoa there! You mean to say you adjust your actions to actively play around a game mechanic?! Heresy! Everyone knows that you have to immediately press the damage buttons after landing a CC - that's the only way to win!

[Math.5123]

> @"Simonoly.4352" said:

> > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > After I stun a mirage I just wait for them to waste their evades while I save my cooldowns so that they are open and can't use their ambush.

> >

> > Vs more clever mirages I initiate an attack and just stow to bait them.

> >

> > If it's a poor position I'll take the time to actively play around the illusions to reduce any of the mirage's momentum and starve them of offensive options.

> >

> > You may not like that they can evade while stunned, but I think of it as a good opportunity to remind them of the futility of their struggles >=3

>

> Whoa there! You mean to say you adjust your actions to actively play around a game mechanic?! Heresy! Everyone knows that you have to immediately press the damage buttons after landing a CC - that's the only way to win!

 

Can always use one of your 4 instant cast teleports to avoid any follow up damage if you mistime your dodge. Or press f4

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> (...)

> and almost the lowest vigor uptime thanks to all the nerfs.(...)

 

Just a side note: It can achieve a 50% vigor uptime easily with the current metabuild (dueling, chaos, mirage). Much much more than - for example - ele, whose evade frames are just a little higher than mirage. But mirage has invulnerabilities, stealth, detargets on top.

 

And while thief indeed has much more spammable evade uptime - I had that table somewhere here on the forum... -, but only mirage is able to _constantly attack while evading_. Fake cast against a mirage? lol, he's gonna burst you while you're stowing weapons.

 

Not saying that fact needs nerfing though. This part _can_ be fine as a class mechanic, it is the amount of benefits mirage has that make it so awful. I won't say boonbeast is less OP or harder to play though, stupid fotm build. :wink:

 

[kappa.2036]

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> You do for one you do for all-

> how about this.

> Any skill not labeled as a stunbreak is unable to be used while controlled by stun, knockdown, knockback, pull, push, float, launch, or daze.

> This means no more steal while CC'd

> No more controlling your pet while CC'd

> No more switching attunements while CC'd

> No more inflitrators return while CC'd

> Etc.

> Because this would be against the combat philosophy anet never shared.

>

 

I think you are misunderstanding something. All the mechanics you mentioned above have nothing to do with ON DODGE mechanics. Mirage cloak replace the standard dodge so it should be balanced around this. For example, daredevil also gains additional effects on dodging, but these effects are still balanced around a normal dodge. This allows you lock them down with a good timed cc or immobilize - unless they are running Unhindered Combatant that removes movement impairing conditions, of course.

 

 

[kappa.2036]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> Ahh...sourbeast crying about mirage... What a nice view here

 

> @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> That's how I feel when I play my Soulbeast. What again is CC?

 

I personally think that soulbeast should be nerfed, exactly like the other broken PoF specs. Nerfing soulbeast is quite simple though and has nothing related to their mechanic: just reduce the number of boons at their disposal and their duration - especially when they merge with the pet, remove Plasma, and there you go, you have a balanced spec. I'm all for it, but they need to nerf a lot of things on other PoF specializations aswell btw.