New Marked! debuff

[getalifeturd.8139]

@"Cristalyan.5728" said:

 

> I don't know the name of our Forum colleague who had a kind of "prophecy": He said that he expects something to counter the elite counter-counter to reveal. We have it now. But after this he said the thief will receive a Mega counter to the Super counter to counter reveal. And so on ....

 

**FOUND IT**

 

> @"coro.3176" said:

> * Anet: Y'know, perma-stealth is frustrating to play against. Let's give players a way to counter it with reveal

> * Also Anet: Oh, deadeye dies if they're revealed. Let's give them a way to cancel reveal

> * Soon: Oh, perma-stealth deadeye is still frustrating to play against. Let's give players a way to super-reveal deadeyes so they can't cancel it.

> * Later: Oh, deadeye dies if they're super-revealed. Let's give them a way to cancel super-reveal.

> * Soon: ... super-mega-ulitimate-reveal

>

> Typical arms race.

 

> @"coro.3176" said:

> > @"Sviel.7493" said:

> > Rather than adding a new usurping mechanic, why not just give stealth traps a reveal that is unique from player reveals?

> >

> > Which is...technically a new usurping mechanic, but w/e q_q

>

> Yes! We can call it super-reveal. And then deadeye can get a new elite skill that counters super-reveal and applies super-stealth. Then we can get a new trap that removes super-stealth and applies super-mega-reveal. And then deadeye can get a new trait that counters super-mega-reveal and applies ULTIMATE STEALTH, which removes them from sight and prevents them from interacting with other players until anet figures out how to make stealth counterplay work.

>

> :)

 

 

 

[Turk.5460]

> @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> So the Marked! debuff keeps them from being permastealthed inside the keep to then res a mesmer that can then port in their zerg again or to res their team so they can just continue to harrass an objective for much longer than should be warranted.

 

As @"MUDse.7623" so graciously outlined in [THIS](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/742489#Comment_742489 "THIS") thread. There is currently a bug able to be exploited that removes Marked! while you're inside an enemy keep with the Mark debuff. You can read about it in my bug report [HERE](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60525/exploitable-bug-watchtower-keep-mark-can-be-prematurely-removed "HERE")

 

Feel free to leave a comment on the bug thread to keep it near the top so a developer might take a gander. :)

[KryTiKaL.3125]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > @"Klypto.1703" said:

> > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > > only thing i am confused with is that the description says that the reveal will occur when 'stealthing for long durations' and then it happens after 2 seconds, yet most stealth applications in this game are 3-4seconds. i would like them to set that timer to 4 seconds to only affect longer stealth stacking.

> > > > >

> > > > > but overall it wont be too much of an issue for deadeyes, reveals like everything else will only kill you if you dont know or plan for it to be applied. but the very existance of those traps and tricks will create an illusion of safety that can be abused.

> > > > >

> > > > > i am more worried about the actual marking of that trap as a means for autoscouting, it can have a severe impact on whats left of havoc groups. you can bypass marks that you know will happen, but a trap?

> > > > > > @"Klypto.1703" said:

> > > > > > Yes my fellow deadeyes will be dropping these at every exit from a spawn so that it will really show what a bad idea this is.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Enjoy :)

> > > > > if you have an issue with this change affecting your performance as a deadeye, that is not the right way to go about it. better is to not play deadeye then. when you keep playing it, anet will see it as you dont mind / enjoy those changes.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I don't fold when it gets hot in the kitchen. I just overcome and adapt and use their own weapons against them and see how they like the taste of their own medicine.

> > >

> > > then your asking for it to become hotter :3.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > So many tears...are you all unable to outskill opponents without relying on stealth and run tactics?

> > >

> > > sure if my build has tools for that. but if i build to use stealth and run tactics and then i cant use them, i just question wether i should still build for them when there is soo much better cheese..

> > >

> > > also i think as an opponent to a deadeye you wont really see much of a difference with todays patch. its just that playing the deadeye yourself you now need to look a little more on the envoirement. the deadeye still picks the fight, so he still will win. the opportunities to do so will just be a little less.

> >

> > The prime issue with DE outside of the obvious issues in roaming with them (the one shotting not even with rifle but with Malicious backstab which this still doesn't fix) is that they can perma stealth inside of a keep if their team fails to defend from a flip or if their group gets wiped off an objective like a camp or tower. So the Marked! debuff keeps them from being permastealthed inside the keep to then res a mesmer that can then port in their zerg again or to res their team so they can just continue to harrass an objective for much longer than should be warranted. That isn't a "clever" tactic when the method that was used before this change was something the kitten thing could *cleanse* off of themselves. People have tried putting the stealth disrupter traps on bodies before and I have literally seen a DE proc it and just cleanse the effect to then scamper off in their permastealthed state. This also forces DEs to actually maybe choose to maneuver better around sentries and towers rather than just being able to permastealth right by them so that roamers have even *less* warning time to go and defend a camp which already has a silly amount of a delay before they appear contested.

>

> ressing the mesmer could have been adressed without interferring in combat. there were several issues why mesmers were able to get rezzed:

> 1. the timer is 5 minutes long - for what actually?

> 2. the timer resets everytime someone touches the body

> 3. people used all their damage ON the body instead of covering a large area to avoid the deadeye coming close to the body while OOC. because you need to be OOC to rez a full downed player. you didnt need reveal at all to avoid the ressing.

> one could simply lower the timer and if it is just in enemy territory for full downed to 1 minute and then make it not refresh when people res a tick.

> change now means: leave the mesmer dead and just flip it solo.

>

> one did get marked in permastealth too before, so we already had to maneuver around towers/sentries like everyone else.

 

Well the point I'm getting at is that a DE being there made it so roamers needed to just hang around on a single objective for much longer than should be needed all purely because they could permastealth nearby and just wait for people to leave and then res their buddies thus nullifying roamers having successfully defended an objective because if they leave it will just get flipped. I don't disagree that this is just some odd bandaid to a much larger problem, but when does Anet actually fix the appropriate things rather than just skirting around the actual problem? Have you *seen* ranked PvP? They essentially gave up on it in favor of the tournaments stuff. Remember dungeons? They were abandoned in favor of fractals. Anet doesn't fix things, they just add or change something else to try and "fix" the problem which is really frustrating because for one they could have added **hard mode** or something similar to dungeons, thus increasing rewards or providing better rewards, they could have brought back 5 man queing for ranked PvP or added differen't que types (2s, 3s, 5s) or brought back GvG and made it 10v10 or 8v8.

[reddie.5861]

> @"Rysdude.3824" said:

> Although I don't play any stealth professions in WvW, I certainly feel for them. You'll have people just throwing tricks everywhere.

 

nice (moi a thief) finally all these wannabe thiefs/mesmers who relay perma on stealth gonna reroll again.

[apharma.3741]

I just ran into this, it basically completely nullifies most stealth abilities near towers. Which is a problem when you fight servers like Gandara that literally have 5-10 players sitting in a watchtower upgraded tower who will run out to kill that 1 guy looking to flip camps.

 

Edit: Before someone asks, no I run with 2 stealth abilities but you get revealed after 2s which means you can't chain them to gtfo when those gankers come.

[Riko.9214]

Looks like going solo to enemy territory is only possible on mobility builds now.

 

On the positive side it looks like thiefs finally can be relevant in WvW by depriving enemies from their supplies.

[Dante.1763]

> @"Riko.9214" said:

> Looks like going solo to enemy territory is only possible on mobility builds now.

>

> On the positive side it looks like thiefs finally can be relevant in WvW by depriving enemies from their supplies.

 

Funny, i go solo into enemy territory all the time on my ele and ranger neither of which are running meta builds and capture objectives constantly by myself, with no stealth at all.

[XenesisII.1540]

Double down on traps... yay.

Let me know when they get instant cast time.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"Straegen.2938" said:

> > @"XECOR.2814" said:

> > They put counter to stealth in wvw and thieves are mad. What a surprise.

>

> The general complaint is that it is not just a counter. Going near sentries or radar effectively neuters the damage of several builds in addition to removing a huge chunk of their survival. Most are for more reveal counter play or a straight up adjustment to stealth but this is an oddball design decision especially since stealthers are the most likely solo roamers flipping sentries and such.

 

Pretty much this. I main deadeye, I use dodges and shadow meld along with stolen skills to get enough stealth to reposition or avoid a blob but I don't permastealth, and I have no issue with the change in how it solves the "permastealth in your tower lol backstab" type gameplay issues except for how it punishes all stealth use instead of just punishing permastealth. Imagine if being near a sentry cut a second off a guardian's blocks and stopped you blocking again for 6 seconds, people would go ape #*!@.

 

By all means, nerf permastealth deadeye. Just don't handicap all builds that have to use a small amount of stealth to access class mechanics in order to actually function.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> Trapper runes grant 3s of stealth per trap as of this most recent patch. I don't think anything grants only 2s anymore.

 

Ah, I hadn't spotted that, thanks for the heads up :)

[Kylden Ar.3724]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > Trapper runes grant 3s of stealth per trap as of this most recent patch. I don't think anything grants only 2s anymore.

>

> Ah, I hadn't spotted that, thanks for the heads up :)

 

Signet of Midnight is 2 seconds, think that is about it.

[Riko.9214]

> @"Dante.1763" said:

> > @"Riko.9214" said:

> > Looks like going solo to enemy territory is only possible on mobility builds now.

> >

> > On the positive side it looks like thiefs finally can be relevant in WvW by depriving enemies from their supplies.

>

> Funny, i go solo into enemy territory all the time on my ele and ranger neither of which are running meta builds and capture objectives constantly by myself, with no stealth at all.

 

Emmm? I just said that mobility builds are left, then you come and say you use it already. I mean cool, but so what? If you would say you was using reaper I would see the point.

[XECOR.2814]

Thief mobility is enough to stray clear of any blob or even roamers. I like how people are jumping on the bandwagon that stealth classes would not be playable 1 day after patch without trying. You need to give it time.

[idolin.2831]

> @"Riko.9214" said:

> > @"Dante.1763" said:

> > > @"Riko.9214" said:

> > > Looks like going solo to enemy territory is only possible on mobility builds now.

> > >

> > > On the positive side it looks like thiefs finally can be relevant in WvW by depriving enemies from their supplies.

> >

> > Funny, i go solo into enemy territory all the time on my ele and ranger neither of which are running meta builds and capture objectives constantly by myself, with no stealth at all.

>

> Emmm? I just said that mobility builds are left, then you come and say you use it already. I mean cool, but so what? If you would say you was using reaper I would see the point.

 

What kind of mobility builds are you talking about? Ele can hardly be a class with mobility no matter the build - yeah maybe Lightning Flash and Dagger 4 but they both have long CDs.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"XECOR.2814" said:

> Thief mobility is enough to stray clear of any blob or even roamers. I like how people are jumping on the bandwagon that stealth classes would not be playable 1 day after patch without trying. You need to give it time.

 

the problem with the new marked is, that anet further seems to take the all or nothing approach on stealth. either you will have too much or not enough reveal. while being marked it will nearly impossible to win a fight on the same level with a stealth depending build, while outside of the marked areas nothing will be changed thus the complains wont really get much less. as stealth users usually pick their fights, you still mostly will find them in areas where they have the advantage and are perfectly playable still.

but with such a heavy nerf to stealth in some areas, we probably will see rather buffs than nerfs to it next :3

[TheBravery.9615]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"XECOR.2814" said:

> > Thief mobility is enough to stray clear of any blob or even roamers. I like how people are jumping on the bandwagon that stealth classes would not be playable 1 day after patch without trying. You need to give it time.

>

> the problem with the new marked is, that anet further seems to take the all or nothing approach on stealth. either you will have too much or not enough reveal. while being marked it will nearly impossible to win a fight on the same level with a stealth depending build, while outside of the marked areas nothing will be changed thus the complains wont really get much less. as stealth users usually pick their fights, you still mostly will find them in areas where they have the advantage and are perfectly playable still.

> but with such a heavy nerf to stealth in some areas, we probably will see rather buffs than nerfs to it next :3

 

It's a vicious cycle isn't it

 

Stealth introduced

Revealed introduced

Shadow meld introduced

Marked introduced

 

what the fuck is next bois

[MUDse.7623]

> @"TheBravery.9615" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"XECOR.2814" said:

> > > Thief mobility is enough to stray clear of any blob or even roamers. I like how people are jumping on the bandwagon that stealth classes would not be playable 1 day after patch without trying. You need to give it time.

> >

> > the problem with the new marked is, that anet further seems to take the all or nothing approach on stealth. either you will have too much or not enough reveal. while being marked it will nearly impossible to win a fight on the same level with a stealth depending build, while outside of the marked areas nothing will be changed thus the complains wont really get much less. as stealth users usually pick their fights, you still mostly will find them in areas where they have the advantage and are perfectly playable still.

> > but with such a heavy nerf to stealth in some areas, we probably will see rather buffs than nerfs to it next :3

>

> It's a vicious cycle isn't it

>

> Stealth introduced

> Revealed introduced

> Shadow meld introduced

> Marked introduced

>

> what the kitten is next bois

 

hopefully a rework to stealth, all its interactions with skills/trais aswell as reveal. not sure if it would be good to take a few more rounds before we reach that inevitable rework. however people mostly ask for a straight nerf or buff instead a change.

[DemonSeed.3528]

> @"TheBravery.9615" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"XECOR.2814" said:

> > > Thief mobility is enough to stray clear of any blob or even roamers. I like how people are jumping on the bandwagon that stealth classes would not be playable 1 day after patch without trying. You need to give it time.

> >

> > the problem with the new marked is, that anet further seems to take the all or nothing approach on stealth. either you will have too much or not enough reveal. while being marked it will nearly impossible to win a fight on the same level with a stealth depending build, while outside of the marked areas nothing will be changed thus the complains wont really get much less. as stealth users usually pick their fights, you still mostly will find them in areas where they have the advantage and are perfectly playable still.

> > but with such a heavy nerf to stealth in some areas, we probably will see rather buffs than nerfs to it next :3

>

> It's a vicious cycle isn't it

>

> Stealth introduced

> Revealed introduced

> Shadow meld introduced

> Marked introduced

>

> what the kitten is next bois

 

If the next balance patch doesn't buff thief in some way, I think it will be scary because they might turn thieves into unkillable tardigrades in the next expac XD

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"TheBravery.9615" said:

> > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > @"XECOR.2814" said:

> > > > Thief mobility is enough to stray clear of any blob or even roamers. I like how people are jumping on the bandwagon that stealth classes would not be playable 1 day after patch without trying. You need to give it time.

> > >

> > > the problem with the new marked is, that anet further seems to take the all or nothing approach on stealth. either you will have too much or not enough reveal. while being marked it will nearly impossible to win a fight on the same level with a stealth depending build, while outside of the marked areas nothing will be changed thus the complains wont really get much less. as stealth users usually pick their fights, you still mostly will find them in areas where they have the advantage and are perfectly playable still.

> > > but with such a heavy nerf to stealth in some areas, we probably will see rather buffs than nerfs to it next :3

> >

> > It's a vicious cycle isn't it

> >

> > Stealth introduced

> > Revealed introduced

> > Shadow meld introduced

> > Marked introduced

> >

> > what the kitten is next bois

>

> hopefully a rework to stealth, all its interactions with skills/trais aswell as reveal. not sure if it would be good to take a few more rounds before we reach that inevitable rework. however people mostly ask for a straight nerf or buff instead a change.

 

I still think they only needed to remove stealth via smoke fields to fix it tbh. 90% of all QQ about build X having too much stealth involves a smoke field, remove them and keep skills like shadow refuge and mass invis as the longer duration stealth (they have clear counterplay) and buff defense to compensate, job done.

[Das Brockenhuhn.6984]

I agree with the people who want the marked debuff to activate after 4sec not 2sec. Applying stealth wasnt't the problem but the stacking was imo.

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"idolin.2831" said:

> > @"Riko.9214" said:

> > > @"Dante.1763" said:

> > > > @"Riko.9214" said:

> > > > Looks like going solo to enemy territory is only possible on mobility builds now.

> > > >

> > > > On the positive side it looks like thiefs finally can be relevant in WvW by depriving enemies from their supplies.

> > >

> > > Funny, i go solo into enemy territory all the time on my ele and ranger neither of which are running meta builds and capture objectives constantly by myself, with no stealth at all.

> >

> > Emmm? I just said that mobility builds are left, then you come and say you use it already. I mean cool, but so what? If you would say you was using reaper I would see the point.

>

> What kind of mobility builds are you talking about? Ele can hardly be a class with mobility no matter the build - yeah maybe Lightning Flash and Dagger 4 but they both have long CDs.

 

On sword weaver, the only class that catches me if I am trying is a daredevil or core thief. Weaver, with sword dagger is highly mobile.

[Caedmon.6798]

This doesnt just hurt thieves,thieves or anyone can use these traps in their advantage aswell.Lay them near spawn exits so blobs will be instantly marked on the map.Lay them near entrances of camps so roamers will be instantly swarmed etc.

 

Just not a fan of sentrys adding this mark effect or when fighting near a tower in which case i have to backtrack out of radar range to continue fighting and people can keep getting you back in marked range whenever they go low,ezpz.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"TheBravery.9615" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"XECOR.2814" said:

> > > Thief mobility is enough to stray clear of any blob or even roamers. I like how people are jumping on the bandwagon that stealth classes would not be playable 1 day after patch without trying. You need to give it time.

> >

> > the problem with the new marked is, that anet further seems to take the all or nothing approach on stealth. either you will have too much or not enough reveal. while being marked it will nearly impossible to win a fight on the same level with a stealth depending build, while outside of the marked areas nothing will be changed thus the complains wont really get much less. as stealth users usually pick their fights, you still mostly will find them in areas where they have the advantage and are perfectly playable still.

> > but with such a heavy nerf to stealth in some areas, we probably will see rather buffs than nerfs to it next :3

>

> It's a vicious cycle isn't it

>

> Stealth introduced

> Revealed introduced

> Shadow meld introduced

> Marked introduced

>

> what the kitten is next bois

Stealth on every dodge?

 

Wait...

 

[Bern.9613]

Now that revealed for 30 secs has been introduced, can we have a trap and a trcik that stops all regens for 30 secs as well?

[Tyyphoon.5301]

> @"Bern.9613" said:

> Now that revealed for 30 secs has been introduced, can we have a trap and a trcik that stops all regens for 30 secs as well?

 

That is a valid suggestion. I would also like to see a trick and trap with the effect: "_All incoming attacks cannot be blocked or be nullified via invulnerability skills for 30 seconds_".

Of course, this would follow similar to the stealth trap and trick as being an unavoidable effect. And the effect will have same radius and affect the same number of enemies in said radius behaving similarly to the stealth trap and trick.