The new marked debuff is only targeted towards thiefs and a bit too much

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > It does seem a rather awkward approach to solving the issue of stealth. Does it actually even counter stealth that well?

>

> sentries and towers not. but the trap/trick could be nasty, yet i havent run into one yet with a player nearby ( but i also didnt really hide in keeps/towers since the change, only in stonemist castle)

> when playing with stealth you still pick your encounter wich means knowing that you will get revealed near a sentry / tower is something you can prepare for. it limits the deadeyes movement a little but for his target it usually wont make a difference. most opponents die to the opener anyway so no chance at using the trick/trap.

>

> its still a bad change for the game as it just reduces the encounters with a deadeye but doesnt change how the encounters will go. as it is overall a nerf the chances are there that next the deadeye will get rather a buff then a nerf leading to even more complains than before. anet has to stop balancing stealth with reveal, that doesnt lead to a healthy encounter for either side, wonder how long it takes for them to rework the entire stealth system and the thief with it.

 

Pretty much. It just makes the matchup more rock paper scissors than it was already.

 

Regarding your earlier question (threads got merged and I missed it); I don't think it's worth running stealth focused builds at the moment, no. I build for stealth through lots of stolen skills but honestly you need your defense to be reliable as a thief, and stealth on the permastealth build is not reliable anymore. If I had to guess, I'd say watch out for people going for one shot staff daredevil builds; I got hit for 17k by vault the other day, so it's doable.

[Swagger.1459]

> @"Anput.4620" said:

> > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > Stealth was hit equally across professions.

> >

> > More thieves will now have to look at other gear options outside of zerker and marauder. Thief still has the most access to mobility skills, affording the best engage and disengages this game has. Thief has access to a lot of evade skills. Thief still can hit hard...

> >

> > I’m not saying that thief doesn’t need improvements and changes, just like every other profession, but thief can be successful while using minimal to no stealth builds. The problem is that players have grown accustom to factoring heavily on stealth, zero toughness and pouring everything into doing damage...

> >

> > Time for thief players to rethink how to play with these changes, because permanent stealth was not good for the game. Especially with how it was not developed with pvp and wvw play in mind.

> >

>

> Are you serious right now? Stealth is not distributed evenly among all profs. Why not hit invuls too equally around all proffs? We hit a mechanic heavilly used by 1 prof, that is not an equal hit. That is like saying marked removes shroud so it is fair towards necros cause shroud is hit equally among all profs.

>

> Deadeye doesn't have access to those with the tradeoff of more stealth.

>

> Deadeye is unplayable without stealth, what other build will you play?

 

Yes I’m serious.

 

I have a number of issues with the game too, but we have to take a step back and look at things a bit differently sometimes... I know I’ve posted with emotion too, so I won’t judge you at all, but I do have a habit of trying to rework my builds and make new gear when changes roll around, or when I struggle with certain encounters. And I have a lot of ascended gear, like a lot...

 

What you also need to think about is that just because a mechanic has been around a long time, it doesn’t mean that it’s fine. The game is different than when it launched in 2012 and things need to evolve, and it’s healthy for the player base to shake things up sometimes. And after 6 long years a team, the “Systems Team”, was put together to take everything related to professions even more seriously...

 

I’m NOT saying l2p at all, what I’m saying is that things will change and we need to explore other build options and play styles too... Playtest more with different builds, and in different scenarios, then come up with some suggestions if you see issues.

 

Maybe the trap needs to be changed? Maybe the stealth mechanics need a complete revamp? Maybe this or that, I don’t know, but make some personal adjustments in the meantime.

 

Edit- And given all that... I will say that permasteath and/or 1 shot builds on any profession are not healthy for the game. Designs like those prevent profession growth in other areas and should be worked on.

[Susy.7529]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > That's just a small part of what you (thieves) deserve for being THE nuisance for so much time in WvW!

> > I also hope for stealth to be completely removed from GW2 since it's such a broken nonsense mechanic.

>

> I'm fine with that. Just don't cry when I pistol whip you to death, because you asked for it.

 

I don't recall ever losing to a thief without him using stealth at least once. But that's another story.

[kash.9213]

Either the devs are going to think, "these people are idiots, why bother with the forums?", or you'll get knee-jerk reaction changes that throw a thief build out of wack and take two or three more patches to smooth over with more dumbass infused feedback. At the same time people here claim thieves have endless amounts of everything and are inundating WvW to a halt but also refuse to admit they're losing more often then not. You can't have it both ways, either you're super good and this isn't the major problem you claim or you're just bad and need handicaps. Or, there are some problems here and there that should be looked at and dealt with within reason and from the perspective of someone who's not choking on salty rage.

[Silv.1723]

Deadeye was good as it gets before the rework. But everyone complained and they created a monster. They just made it worse. Do not compare deadeye with daredevil or sword dagger builds. Not the same thing! Deadeye without stealth is just a walking target. It was designed around stealth....and now they took the stealth away without anything in exchange.

[Bern.9613]

IMO marked should be reworked. It's one thing to light up a zerg, quite another when a thief, which is one of three with lowest hp pool and the absolute worse regen in game without stealth, loses the ability to stealth. With Target Painter being throwable AND unblockable, all that's required and I might add, being done, is to have two members throwing them like confetti at the thief. When you're marked, they know you're there anyways so why punish the thief by removing his surviveability? I get the marked system as it is now after a keep is taken. Watch tower, meh, maybe while outside the walls, not inside. Sentries, not warranted at all. Target Painter and Target Painter trap,. maybe for the first 3 or 4 secs to throw the thief off his game, definitely not for 30 secs. Besides, almost every class has a reveal prior to this, dare i say, "update" And since we're on the subject of abusing a certain skill/trait, what about those out heal all damage fire brands, weavers, holosmiths, druids, endless evades mirages, endless invulns from warriors/guards/memsers, endless condi scourges, unblockable piercing one shot soulbeast? Where are the traps/tricks to "counter play" these builds? I seem to recall six years ago, the thief was marketed as the scourge of the battlefield. A-net developers being all excited about introducing the deadeye not that long ago. The new marked system sure does feel like A-net is gutting the thief after pigeon-holing them. If the end goal is to make the thief not viable, just remove it from the game and stop this madness.

[Clownmug.8357]

Poor thief players. They get to ride first class for six years then suddenly get downgraded to business class. Soon they may even have to mingle with the commoner rabble in economy class.

[Hitman.5829]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > Well thfs are using stealth as a means of sustate not as a means of attk. That a real problem and the only real counter is revieals that stick.

> >

> > Thf's hp should come at a high cost when it is lost your not a mages who use magic to heal them self your a thf whom must move though the knifes and spears to land big hits and get out if you mess up then you mess up and pay for it. Gw2 is way too forgiving for bad thfs.

>

> your wrong. depending on build you also wont deal damage without stealth.

> > @"Hitman.5829" said:

> > Correct me if I am wrong, but the marked system reveals the thief AFTER 2 seconds in stealth and only if you have the "marked" debuff.

> > The thief now only spends 1 second less in stealth. Are people really complaining that they cannot spend 1 second more in stealth around sentries or watchtowers?

> >

> > What has this game become?

> >

>

> if it doesnt make a difference, why add it to begin with?

 

Because something is better than nothing. Stealth is so broken that even a 1 sec reduction on sentry is better than nothing!

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"Susy.7529" said:

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > That's just a small part of what you (thieves) deserve for being THE nuisance for so much time in WvW!

> > > I also hope for stealth to be completely removed from GW2 since it's such a broken nonsense mechanic.

> >

> > I'm fine with that. Just don't cry when I pistol whip you to death, because you asked for it.

>

> I don't recall ever losing to a thief without him using stealth at least once. But that's another story.

 

My point is more that if they remove stealth, thieves will adapt, and people will find something else to complain about. Hatred is irrational.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

I remember one of the arguments thieves used to throw around to defend stealth is that everyone has access to it.

So now with the marked mechanic the narrative has changed?

[DemonSeed.3528]

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> I remember one of the arguments thieves used to throw around to defend stealth is that everyone has access to it.

> So now with the marked mechanic the narrative has changed?

 

I think the difference will be that some thieves need it for survival in their builds, basically the shadow arts line.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"Hitman.5829" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > Well thfs are using stealth as a means of sustate not as a means of attk. That a real problem and the only real counter is revieals that stick.

> > >

> > > Thf's hp should come at a high cost when it is lost your not a mages who use magic to heal them self your a thf whom must move though the knifes and spears to land big hits and get out if you mess up then you mess up and pay for it. Gw2 is way too forgiving for bad thfs.

> >

> > your wrong. depending on build you also wont deal damage without stealth.

> > > @"Hitman.5829" said:

> > > Correct me if I am wrong, but the marked system reveals the thief AFTER 2 seconds in stealth and only if you have the "marked" debuff.

> > > The thief now only spends 1 second less in stealth. Are people really complaining that they cannot spend 1 second more in stealth around sentries or watchtowers?

> > >

> > > What has this game become?

> > >

> >

> > if it doesnt make a difference, why add it to begin with?

>

> Because something is better than nothing. Stealth is so broken that even a 1 sec reduction on sentry is better than nothing!

 

You can have the stealth. Like I say, if stealth gets removed and thief gets reworked to have some actual sustain to compensate, don't complain. You asked for whatever happens next.

[Optimator.3589]

Thieves have plenty going for them even without infinite stealth. This hardly guts the class.

[Tyyphoon.5301]

I logged in recently and tried out these stealth tricks and traps. They actually were quite amusing to use. I kept spamming them at zergs so they couldn't do their typical cloaking waters/veil stacking invisi-pushes on fellow roamers or friendly zerg. It was quite a sight to see...they veil and immediately reveal themselves. I got quite a few good laughs out of it. Easy pin-sniping too. I recommend all thieves to employ these tricks and traps to stealth bomb enemy zergs so they cant de-target their pin and zerg.

 

You just have to learn to use the tools ANET gave you to gain an upper-hand in any situation. ;)

 

Cheerio!

[Simonoly.4352]

I can't imagine anyone will use either of the Target Painters to trivialise a fight against a Thief, Mesmer, Ranger, Engi etc. If someone tries to lay a trap or equip a trick mid fight, just obliterate them.

 

However, these will help to solve the issue with Deadeyes being able to remain in stealth indefinitely within a tower/keep. That simply isn't a good thing for the game, however hilarious it is to do at times. You can't even jump into a Deadeye's Black Powder to eat a Heartseeker and force a reveal because we can just use Shadow Meld immediately after. I guess this was just Anet's way of resolving an issue of two mechanics colliding in an unfortunate way.

[Jski.6180]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > Well thfs are using stealth as a means of sustate not as a means of attk. That a real problem and the only real counter is revieals that stick.

> >

> > Thf's hp should come at a high cost when it is lost your not a mages who use magic to heal them self your a thf whom must move though the knifes and spears to land big hits and get out if you mess up then you mess up and pay for it. Gw2 is way too forgiving for bad thfs.

>

> your wrong. depending on build you also wont deal damage without stealth.

> > @"Hitman.5829" said:

> > Correct me if I am wrong, but the marked system reveals the thief AFTER 2 seconds in stealth and only if you have the "marked" debuff.

> > The thief now only spends 1 second less in stealth. Are people really complaining that they cannot spend 1 second more in stealth around sentries or watchtowers?

> >

> > What has this game become?

> >

>

> if it doesnt make a difference, why add it to begin with?

 

Well ya that true but if your stealthing to clear condis or to heal or even to cover such skill your miss using stealth as a tool your effectually making stealth a broken effect a kin to invariability.

 

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Jski.6180" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > Well thfs are using stealth as a means of sustate not as a means of attk. That a real problem and the only real counter is revieals that stick.

> > >

> > > Thf's hp should come at a high cost when it is lost your not a mages who use magic to heal them self your a thf whom must move though the knifes and spears to land big hits and get out if you mess up then you mess up and pay for it. Gw2 is way too forgiving for bad thfs.

> >

> > your wrong. depending on build you also wont deal damage without stealth.

> Well ya that true but if your stealthing to clear condis or to heal or even to cover such skill your miss using stealth as a tool your effectually making stealth a broken effect a kin to invariability.

>

 

stealth in this game is resource based. meaning the duration of each instance of stealth is balanced by the resources you spent for it. this makes stealth that is out of combat (till broken) cost as much as infight were it is a powerfull targetbreak or escape tool. now if i want to avoid unwinnable fights efficiently i will need a lot of stealth, wich then means infight whenever i go into stealth i could just stay there forever as it has the same cost. this forces my opponent to burst me down before i restealth wich is for many not much fun. but on the other side to have that much stealth outside i have to build so much into stealth, that i actually NEED it infight and if my opponents have by some means alot of reveal that prevents me from using my stealth, then i am pretty much a target dummy as you disabled most of my build.

i would like a thief rework to stealth attacks/shadow arts etc. and a cheaper long lasting precombat stealth so you can avoid fights with stealth, but dont have to(/can't) then build your entire fight around it.

 

btw stealth being resource based usually means that you have infight more stealth than outside because of resource refunding buffs/traits, while it should be the other way round.

 

[Wolfswift.2657]

I play core thief Dagger/Dagger and played it for 3.5k hours. it already is off-meta because elite specs are stronger. With this weapon set your main source of damage is through backstab. I have to work for my stealth by actually landing a Cloak and Dagger which can be dodged, evaded, blocked etc. Fine I like to play this way and it gives me high reward. I just ragequit from WvW because I can no longer play my class due to this Detected debuff. Enemy tower which I tried to take had this marked upgrade so every cloak and dagger/backstab combo needs to hit <2 seconds or my damage source gets taken away for 5 seconds. IF I miss my backstab because of a dodge/blind/block etc. my damage source is nullified and I will be useless for 5 seconds again. My only true joy in this game got nerfed again and I think if this is not rolled back I will have to say goodbye to guildwars 2 after 6 years of playing.

 

I wish the balance team would look into the elite specs or possibly be nicer to core specs. I mean why do we have +40% endurance regen food which enables deadeyes to perma-stealth.

[Klypto.1703]

> @"Jski.6180" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > Well thfs are using stealth as a means of sustate not as a means of attk. That a real problem and the only real counter is revieals that stick.

> > >

> > > Thf's hp should come at a high cost when it is lost your not a mages who use magic to heal them self your a thf whom must move though the knifes and spears to land big hits and get out if you mess up then you mess up and pay for it. Gw2 is way too forgiving for bad thfs.

> >

> > your wrong. depending on build you also wont deal damage without stealth.

> > > @"Hitman.5829" said:

> > > Correct me if I am wrong, but the marked system reveals the thief AFTER 2 seconds in stealth and only if you have the "marked" debuff.

> > > The thief now only spends 1 second less in stealth. Are people really complaining that they cannot spend 1 second more in stealth around sentries or watchtowers?

> > >

> > > What has this game become?

> > >

> >

> > if it doesnt make a difference, why add it to begin with?

>

> Well ya that true but if your stealthing to clear condis or to heal or even to cover such skill your miss using stealth as a tool your effectually making stealth a broken effect a kin to invariability.

>

 

Oh please its not abusing stealth the problem is bad players that don't utilize the tools they are given so once you drown anet in tears you get what you want a passive way to get a thief or anything using stealth killed without having any skill at all. As well nothing is forgiving when it comes to thief one hit can kill a thief its the funny part about the complainers is they never ever ever talk about the handicap from low vitality and the related squishyness that no amount of toughness will ever bring sustain too. As long as thieves can't fight back that is what balance is to these kinds of players. So whenever this happens you'll just end up losing players not the ability to win fights because we aren't going to play a game where its completely rigged against us.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Klypto.1703" said:

> > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > > Well thfs are using stealth as a means of sustate not as a means of attk. That a real problem and the only real counter is revieals that stick.

> > > >

> > > > Thf's hp should come at a high cost when it is lost your not a mages who use magic to heal them self your a thf whom must move though the knifes and spears to land big hits and get out if you mess up then you mess up and pay for it. Gw2 is way too forgiving for bad thfs.

> > >

> > > your wrong. depending on build you also wont deal damage without stealth.

> > > > @"Hitman.5829" said:

> > > > Correct me if I am wrong, but the marked system reveals the thief AFTER 2 seconds in stealth and only if you have the "marked" debuff.

> > > > The thief now only spends 1 second less in stealth. Are people really complaining that they cannot spend 1 second more in stealth around sentries or watchtowers?

> > > >

> > > > What has this game become?

> > > >

> > >

> > > if it doesnt make a difference, why add it to begin with?

> >

> > Well ya that true but if your stealthing to clear condis or to heal or even to cover such skill your miss using stealth as a tool your effectually making stealth a broken effect a kin to invariability.

> >

>

> Oh please its not abusing stealth the problem is bad players that don't utilize the tools they are given so once you drown anet in tears you get what you want a passive way to get a thief or anything using stealth killed without having any skill at all. As well nothing is forgiving when it comes to thief one hit can kill a thief its the funny part about the complainers is they never ever ever talk about the handicap from low vitality and the related squishyness that no amount of toughness will ever bring sustain too. As long as thieves can't fight back that is what balance is to these kinds of players. So whenever this happens you'll just end up losing players not the ability to win fights because we aren't going to play a game where its completely rigged against us.

 

thief is just a profession not the player. if you love the games combat but currently dont enjoy your thief, just play a different profession, maybe different scale of fights or even another mode (yes playing PvE can make you a better player in WvW as you will look at mechanics/synergies a little different). i loved stealth roaming and while i perfectly could i refuse to fight more the envoirement than the players ( and i think the marking as such will reduce overall smallscale/havoc), but that doesnt mean anet will lose me as a player. there is plenty of other fun stuff in this game, most of it even gets better rewards and dev attention than solo roaming.

 

and those of you that are like 'cant you guys roam without stealth?', sure i can but if you guys think that solo roaming without stealth is even remotely the same activity as doing so with stealth your highly mistaken. you are much more restricted without stealth in your choice of encounters and movement across the map, you are much more controlled by the envoirement, you are not as free. its not about the ability to solo roam without stealth but about the fun doing it.

[Jski.6180]

> @"Klypto.1703" said:

> > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > > Well thfs are using stealth as a means of sustate not as a means of attk. That a real problem and the only real counter is revieals that stick.

> > > >

> > > > Thf's hp should come at a high cost when it is lost your not a mages who use magic to heal them self your a thf whom must move though the knifes and spears to land big hits and get out if you mess up then you mess up and pay for it. Gw2 is way too forgiving for bad thfs.

> > >

> > > your wrong. depending on build you also wont deal damage without stealth.

> > > > @"Hitman.5829" said:

> > > > Correct me if I am wrong, but the marked system reveals the thief AFTER 2 seconds in stealth and only if you have the "marked" debuff.

> > > > The thief now only spends 1 second less in stealth. Are people really complaining that they cannot spend 1 second more in stealth around sentries or watchtowers?

> > > >

> > > > What has this game become?

> > > >

> > >

> > > if it doesnt make a difference, why add it to begin with?

> >

> > Well ya that true but if your stealthing to clear condis or to heal or even to cover such skill your miss using stealth as a tool your effectually making stealth a broken effect a kin to invariability.

> >

>

> Oh please its not abusing stealth the problem is bad players that don't utilize the tools they are given so once you drown anet in tears you get what you want a passive way to get a thief or anything using stealth killed without having any skill at all. As well nothing is forgiving when it comes to thief one hit can kill a thief its the funny part about the complainers is they never ever ever talk about the handicap from low vitality and the related squishyness that no amount of toughness will ever bring sustain too. As long as thieves can't fight back that is what balance is to these kinds of players. So whenever this happens you'll just end up losing players not the ability to win fights because we aren't going to play a game where its completely rigged against us.

 

Stealth should be an get in tool not an get out tool and thf hp should be very valuable not rubber baning. Thf not the squishes class in the game though and its a high counter stun class. Your a tank or a dmg dealer you should not be able to do both.

[kop.8724]

Anet is always focusing killing the Thief gamelplay.

Whereas the WvW is dying with minor change in the last 6 years.

I am waiting for a new MMO because I am tired of this game.

[Shroud.2307]

> @"Tyyphoon.5301" said:

> I logged in recently and tried out these stealth tricks and traps. They actually were quite amusing to use. I kept spamming them at zergs so they couldn't do their typical cloaking waters/veil stacking invisi-pushes on fellow roamers or friendly zerg. It was quite a sight to see...they veil and immediately reveal themselves. I got quite a few good laughs out of it. Easy pin-sniping too. I recommend all thieves to employ these tricks and traps to stealth bomb enemy zergs so they cant de-target their pin and zerg.

>

> You just have to learn to use the tools ANET gave you to gain an upper-hand in any situation. ;)

>

> Cheerio!

 

By the time the trick hits the zerg the Stealth from their Veil/Mass Invis will have already expired. Unless you're literally on top of them and throwing it as the Veil goes down.

[Curennos.9307]

> @"Jski.6180" said:

> > @"Klypto.1703" said:

> > > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > > > Well thfs are using stealth as a means of sustate not as a means of attk. That a real problem and the only real counter is revieals that stick.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thf's hp should come at a high cost when it is lost your not a mages who use magic to heal them self your a thf whom must move though the knifes and spears to land big hits and get out if you mess up then you mess up and pay for it. Gw2 is way too forgiving for bad thfs.

> > > >

> > > > your wrong. depending on build you also wont deal damage without stealth.

> > > > > @"Hitman.5829" said:

> > > > > Correct me if I am wrong, but the marked system reveals the thief AFTER 2 seconds in stealth and only if you have the "marked" debuff.

> > > > > The thief now only spends 1 second less in stealth. Are people really complaining that they cannot spend 1 second more in stealth around sentries or watchtowers?

> > > > >

> > > > > What has this game become?

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > if it doesnt make a difference, why add it to begin with?

> > >

> > > Well ya that true but if your stealthing to clear condis or to heal or even to cover such skill your miss using stealth as a tool your effectually making stealth a broken effect a kin to invariability.

> > >

> >

> > Oh please its not abusing stealth the problem is bad players that don't utilize the tools they are given so once you drown anet in tears you get what you want a passive way to get a thief or anything using stealth killed without having any skill at all. As well nothing is forgiving when it comes to thief one hit can kill a thief its the funny part about the complainers is they never ever ever talk about the handicap from low vitality and the related squishyness that no amount of toughness will ever bring sustain too. As long as thieves can't fight back that is what balance is to these kinds of players. So whenever this happens you'll just end up losing players not the ability to win fights because we aren't going to play a game where its completely rigged against us.

>

> Stealth should be an get in tool not an get out tool and thf hp should be very valuable not rubber baning. Thf not the squishes class in the game though and its a high counter stun class. Your a tank or a dmg dealer you should not be able to do both.

 

Everything you just said is either wrong or contradictory.

 

'Stealth should be...' according to...you? Why? What makes what you think stealth SHOULD be better than any other option.

 

Second, I haven't the faintest idea what you said next....'thef not the squishes class in the game though'? Eh? Please rephrase and elaborate.

 

Lastly, if you want to get into the whole purity of purpose/role argument, then you're gonna have to nerf the heck out of pretty much every class except thief (which insofar as I've been able to gather, one of the only classes in the game to never have anything more than a single role in most/almost all gamemods. Compared to, say, holo, that can deal out high damage - single target or aoe, great blocks, sustain, etc.)

[displayname.8315]

Now we can watch streamers and YouTubers play something other than gank theif. Nice.

 

Git Gud Bois.