Semi and Perma-Stealth are junk mechanics

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > It boggles my mind why not only did arenet make invisibility true invisibility with no tells, but also u cant damage someone that’s invisible? That’s ridiculous,ur invisible not like ur turning to mist or anything like that. Being able to damage opponents and revealing them when they take damage would help the cheese mechanic not seem so bad lol

> > But thief is the worst 1v1 so it balances out.

> >

> > Also, what are you even talking about?

> >

>

> It's not the worst 1v1, it does heavily depend on the build the thief uses and the other class though. For example DP daredevil will beat power mes, non super tanky eles, core necros and reapers, used to beat core warrior and could beat revs OK. Sure you insta die if you make more than 2 mistakes but the fight is in your hands. S/D can counter a lot of melee builds with poor mobility and is a tank buster.

>

> In regards to WvW there's not a 1v1 the thief can't usually choose to stalemate or rather not lose except maybe holo and soulbeast.

Oh it is according to the person I quoted, I assure you. No doubts about it.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

> @"Kylden Ar.3724" said:

> > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > > @"Kylden Ar.3724" said:

> > > > @"Rayya.2591" said:

> > > > stealth shoudn't make you invisible

> > > > An example from other game : https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/content_folder_media/9f/9FARDCNDARAU1511386715378.gif

> > > >

> > >

> > > I almost [agree with that.](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/59000/anet-impliment-simple-fix-to-stealth)

> > >

> > > > @"kash.9213" said:

> > > >

> > > > Stealth is an opener and an escape, what is there to tweak? If you don't want to watch people going into and out of stealth, then have fun watching me saunter over to you with my new sustainable traits/skills/utilities as a replacement that I can now actually do damage under the effects of the entire time and enjoy a Death's Judgement in your face. I can play with either stealth or sustain, think on it for a min and decide if you'd be fine with either and be honest about it after considering what the changes to the class would look like to have comparable sustainability, your complaints would almost instantly start looking like the complaints thieves have about other classes.

> > >

> > > Yeah, Stealth is a primary defense tool for 2 classes. Both of which are high burst (Theif, Mesmer). I am not sure people know what they are asking for if they take away stealth from those classes, cause it would need to be replaced with a different defense option (read: _more sustain_).

> > >

> > > Stealth is defense without damage reduction (by making you harder to notice or hit). If they gave us more defense WITH damage reduction, well, Mesmer is already insane there, and I can't imagine Daredevils with even more dodge/defense.

> > >

> >

> > so both actually need stealth because of all their sustain, dodges and defenses. Well, just another reason to remove this entirely broken mechanic - without replacement.

>

> You're clearly not understanding the impact, you're just mad about a mechanic you haven't learned to counter play.

>

> The current stealth package is PART of their defense WITHOUT being Sustain (because it only prevents damage at range, and if you're not trying to cleave/anticipate their burst you are doing it wrong). If you remove it, you either

>

> 1) Replace with MORE SUSTAIN which makes them even more frustrating.

>

> 2) Replace with more BURST/DPS, cause clearly you want to be one shot more, right?

>

> Also, let go dude. It was a 5 day old thread.

 

 

no, just remove all thief and mesmer classes.

 

There is no counter to stealth. So stealth must go. It really is that simple.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > It boggles my mind why not only did arenet make invisibility true invisibility with no tells, but also u cant damage someone that’s invisible? That’s ridiculous,ur invisible not like ur turning to mist or anything like that. Being able to damage opponents and revealing them when they take damage would help the cheese mechanic not seem so bad lol

> > > But thief is the worst 1v1 so it balances out.

> > >

> > > Also, what are you even talking about?

> > >

> >

> > It's not the worst 1v1, it does heavily depend on the build the thief uses and the other class though. For example DP daredevil will beat power mes, non super tanky eles, core necros and reapers, used to beat core warrior and could beat revs OK. Sure you insta die if you make more than 2 mistakes but the fight is in your hands. S/D can counter a lot of melee builds with poor mobility and is a tank buster.

> >

> > In regards to WvW there's not a 1v1 the thief can't usually choose to stalemate or rather not lose except maybe holo and soulbeast.

> Oh it is according to the person I quoted, I assure you. No doubts about it.

 

Ah my mistake, sorry.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> It boggles my mind why not only did arenet make invisibility true invisibility with no tells, but also u cant damage someone that’s invisible? That’s ridiculous,ur invisible not like ur turning to mist or anything like that. Being able to damage opponents and revealing them when they take damage would help the cheese mechanic not seem so bad lol

 

You are not immune to damage when in stealth. That is why smart players get off the ranged pew pew and go to melee cleave or Area of Effect to try and damage/tag them. I am not going to allow you to necro up this thread without outright falsehoods.

 

> @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > @"Kylden Ar.3724" said:

> > > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > > > @"Kylden Ar.3724" said:

> > > > > @"Rayya.2591" said:

> > > > > stealth shoudn't make you invisible

> > > > > An example from other game : https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/content_folder_media/9f/9FARDCNDARAU1511386715378.gif

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I almost [agree with that.](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/59000/anet-impliment-simple-fix-to-stealth)

> > > >

> > > > > @"kash.9213" said:

> > > > >

> > > > > Stealth is an opener and an escape, what is there to tweak? If you don't want to watch people going into and out of stealth, then have fun watching me saunter over to you with my new sustainable traits/skills/utilities as a replacement that I can now actually do damage under the effects of the entire time and enjoy a Death's Judgement in your face. I can play with either stealth or sustain, think on it for a min and decide if you'd be fine with either and be honest about it after considering what the changes to the class would look like to have comparable sustainability, your complaints would almost instantly start looking like the complaints thieves have about other classes.

> > > >

> > > > Yeah, Stealth is a primary defense tool for 2 classes. Both of which are high burst (Theif, Mesmer). I am not sure people know what they are asking for if they take away stealth from those classes, cause it would need to be replaced with a different defense option (read: _more sustain_).

> > > >

> > > > Stealth is defense without damage reduction (by making you harder to notice or hit). If they gave us more defense WITH damage reduction, well, Mesmer is already insane there, and I can't imagine Daredevils with even more dodge/defense.

> > > >

> > >

> > > so both actually need stealth because of all their sustain, dodges and defenses. Well, just another reason to remove this entirely broken mechanic - without replacement.

> >

> > You're clearly not understanding the impact, you're just mad about a mechanic you haven't learned to counter play.

> >

> > The current stealth package is PART of their defense WITHOUT being Sustain (because it only prevents damage at range, and if you're not trying to cleave/anticipate their burst you are doing it wrong). If you remove it, you either

> >

> > 1) Replace with MORE SUSTAIN which makes them even more frustrating.

> >

> > 2) Replace with more BURST/DPS, cause clearly you want to be one shot more, right?

> >

> > Also, let go dude. It was a 5 day old thread.

>

>

> no, just remove all thief and mesmer classes.

>

> There is no counter to stealth. So stealth must go. It really is that simple.

 

I got a better plan. Let's remove YOU from WvW and PvP, because clearly you're not willing to learn to play, and you're acting too sensitive to your losses for PvP modes.

 

I can't believe you'd even suggest just removing 2 CORE classes cause you can't learn to beat them, cause YOU say YOU can't counter stealth, because there is plenty of people in WvW and PvP that in fact counter stealth all the time. What happens when they do remove stealth, and then you discover you can't deal with Guards and Warriors because of all the Blocks, Invulnerable, and Sustain? Going to ask for those classes to be removed? That's 5/9 gone. Eventually we'll be down to what, Necro only? What poor roaming class _do you play_ so we all know what we're allowed to play?

 

And really, over a MONTH OLD THREAD and you bring this kitten crap up again? Get over it, please. ANet is not going to gut 2 classes, and they've done enough to stealth in WvW already. Learn to play or quit the mode. 80% of the content of this game is in PvE anyway where the mean old thieves and mesmers won't interfere with your play time.

 

I mean, I get you're frustrated dude. Clearly or you'd not keep complaining about this. But you are NOT going to see 2/9 classes just removed for your convenience. So learn to counter, cause it can be done. I die all the time when roaming, I don't take it personally. _Neither should you._ Not everyone will enjoy roaming, so have you tried zergs? There is a definite advantage in the mode to _safety in numbers._

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Kylden Ar.3724" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > It boggles my mind why not only did arenet make invisibility true invisibility with no tells, but also u cant damage someone that’s invisible? That’s ridiculous,ur invisible not like ur turning to mist or anything like that. Being able to damage opponents and revealing them when they take damage would help the cheese mechanic not seem so bad lol

>

> You are not immune to damage when in stealth. That is why smart players get off the ranged pew pew and go to melee cleave or Area of Effect to try and damage/tag them. I am not going to allow you to necro up this thread without outright falsehoods.

>

> > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > > @"Kylden Ar.3724" said:

> > > > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > > > > @"Kylden Ar.3724" said:

> > > > > > @"Rayya.2591" said:

> > > > > > stealth shoudn't make you invisible

> > > > > > An example from other game : https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/content_folder_media/9f/9FARDCNDARAU1511386715378.gif

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I almost [agree with that.](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/59000/anet-impliment-simple-fix-to-stealth)

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"kash.9213" said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Stealth is an opener and an escape, what is there to tweak? If you don't want to watch people going into and out of stealth, then have fun watching me saunter over to you with my new sustainable traits/skills/utilities as a replacement that I can now actually do damage under the effects of the entire time and enjoy a Death's Judgement in your face. I can play with either stealth or sustain, think on it for a min and decide if you'd be fine with either and be honest about it after considering what the changes to the class would look like to have comparable sustainability, your complaints would almost instantly start looking like the complaints thieves have about other classes.

> > > > >

> > > > > Yeah, Stealth is a primary defense tool for 2 classes. Both of which are high burst (Theif, Mesmer). I am not sure people know what they are asking for if they take away stealth from those classes, cause it would need to be replaced with a different defense option (read: _more sustain_).

> > > > >

> > > > > Stealth is defense without damage reduction (by making you harder to notice or hit). If they gave us more defense WITH damage reduction, well, Mesmer is already insane there, and I can't imagine Daredevils with even more dodge/defense.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > so both actually need stealth because of all their sustain, dodges and defenses. Well, just another reason to remove this entirely broken mechanic - without replacement.

> > >

> > > You're clearly not understanding the impact, you're just mad about a mechanic you haven't learned to counter play.

> > >

> > > The current stealth package is PART of their defense WITHOUT being Sustain (because it only prevents damage at range, and if you're not trying to cleave/anticipate their burst you are doing it wrong). If you remove it, you either

> > >

> > > 1) Replace with MORE SUSTAIN which makes them even more frustrating.

> > >

> > > 2) Replace with more BURST/DPS, cause clearly you want to be one shot more, right?

> > >

> > > Also, let go dude. It was a 5 day old thread.

> >

> >

> > no, just remove all thief and mesmer classes.

> >

> > There is no counter to stealth. So stealth must go. It really is that simple.

>

> I got a better plan. Let's remove YOU from WvW and PvP, because clearly you're not willing to learn to play, and you're acting too sensitive to your losses for PvP modes.

>

> I can't believe you'd even suggest just removing 2 CORE classes cause you can't learn to beat them, cause YOU say YOU can't counter stealth, because there is plenty of people in WvW and PvP that in fact counter stealth all the time. What happens when they do remove stealth, and then you discover you can't deal with Guards and Warriors because of all the Blocks, Invulnerable, and Sustain? Going to ask for those classes to be removed? That's 5/9 gone. Eventually we'll be down to what, Necro only? What poor roaming class _do you play_ so we all know what we're allowed to play?

>

> And really, over a MONTH OLD THREAD and you bring this kitten kitten up again? Get over it, please. ANet is not going to gut 2 classes, and they've done enough to stealth in WvW already. Learn to play or quit the mode. 80% of the content of this game is in PvE anyway where the mean old thieves and mesmers won't interfere with your play time.

 

Huh I did not know that,I’ve tried so many times to damage a thief while their jumping there thier smoke field and can never seem to make mele contact when thier invisible

[Kylden Ar.3724]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

>

> Huh I did not know that,I’ve tried so many times to damage a thief while their jumping there thier smoke field and can never seem to make mele contact when thier invisible

 

They only need it to START the invisibility, not stay that way. Most smart thieves are looking to move away or behind you at that point.

 

And for the record, I have kept advocating for a [fix to stealth](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/59000/anet-impliment-simple-fix-to-stealth) for a while now, even as a stealth using class. I do think it should be for sneaking at range and breaking targeting, but not a close range get out of jail free card. But outright removing them would be gutting 2 classes and Xpacs that _poeple paid for_ and very unfair.

[Caedmon.6798]

> @"Brujeria.7536" said:

> Yes, stealth needs to be fully reworked, its a living meme . Especially in combination with mobility and other defense mechanics the problems get worse.

>

> For a bandaid fix there should be 5 seconds of "revealed" after leaving stealth, regardless if it expires or it gets removed by attacking. Furthermore inflicting conditions should also count as an attack.

 

So the nec can spamm around with his eyes closed.Its actually funny that youre an actual nec suggesting this,funny..i mean ffing hilarious.

[EremiteAngel.9765]

I shared this on another thread but wanted to share this here too in a stealth-related thread.

 

This mainly refers to perma-stealth builds by Deadeyes though.

 

I'm not okay roaming around, not seeing any enemy, then suddenly get a chunk of my HP torn off.

Then I go OH a Deadeye is here.

I want to be able to see my foe coming, and react accordingly to defend myself.

**Why should I have to lose a chunk of HP without even knowing its coming?**

 

I understand there are classes/builds that can survive an invis spike with passive traits/higher armor and then fight back after they realize a perma invis Deadeye is around.

Which is fine, but just because someone can survive and fight back, doesn't make the perma-stealth mechanic OKAY.

It doesn't matter if there are builds and classes that can survive the invis spike that came out of nowhere and fight back.

 

My point is, why should I even take that hit without even knowing the DE was around in the first place?

So much for skilled rewarding gameplay.

 

Good rewarding mechanics allow you to see a burst coming and react to defend yourself.

Against a Perma invis DE?

**Heh...you eat the burst first and then you react.**

Fun? No, its dumb.

 

The perma stealth mechanic itself is counter-intuitive to skilled rewarding gameplay.

Stealth at least can be sensed to an extent like 3-4 seconds duration.

Perma? How are you going to sense let alone see it coming at all?

[EremiteAngel.9765]

Oh and before I forget, if we are down for stealth-related balances apart from the problems with perma-invis Deadeyes, and that the ability to do stealth-stacking greatly reduces the opponent's ability to 'sense' an attack window in the next 3-4 seconds:

 

Instead of looking at Deadeyes only, lets not forget that Mesmers and Rangers can do the same unhealthy spike damage from stealth.

The issue isn't specifically a Deadeye-only problem.

Damage from stealth as a whole needs to be looked at, not because the damage is high, but because it comes from stealth with massively reduced tells.

This gives opponents very little reaction time to handle a stealth attack and consequently its damage has to be reduced.

**The main issue is reduced tells resulting in very little reaction time.**

**Assuming we keep stealth mechanics as it is, without increasing its tells**, then the damage has to go.

No class should be rewarded for doing spike damage from invis that already has extremely reduced tells.

This needs to be implemented across all classes and it will make sense to tackle the stealth damage problem as a whole rather than look at specific classes.

 

Of course, if we want to look at the stealth mechanics itself instead of nerfing its damage, then like other posters have suggested to make it a semi-transparent figure or to increase the access of reveals greatly across all the classes' core skills would help.

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

Remove stealth and they will just overstack gapclosers. E.G - S/D thieves. So I guess OOC distance should be at least twice as long too

[Kylden Ar.3724]

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

>

> My point is, why should I even take that hit without even knowing the DE was around in the first place?

> So much for skilled rewarding gameplay.

 

{snip}

>

> The perma stealth mechanic itself is counter-intuitive to skilled rewarding gameplay.

> Stealth at least can be sensed to an extent like 3-4 seconds duration.

> Perma? How are you going to sense let alone see it coming at all?

 

What if I told you part of skilled gameplay is not just knowing buttons, skills and rotations?

 

Part of it is know tactics, the map, reading enemy movements. Thinking, "Wow, this wide open space sure looks like a spot a sniper would set up in."

 

Or knowing that a single slow target is the favorite of teefs and mesmers, and not trying to roam solo in a zerg class.

 

(Yes, yes, I know, "Every class should be valid for everything" but they are not, have not been since HoT hit, and that bird has long flown so work in reality.)

 

If you're not playing a class "good" at solo, then don't run solo.

[xZombieTaco.5809]

> @"Straegen.2938" said:

 

> Tweaking stealth so it is an opener or escape rather than both will go a long ways towards removing one of the most crappy WvW mechanics this game has. Oh and yes, I mainly play a thief.

 

1. If you mainly play thief then you know that the entire class is built around the stealth mechanic for any amount of sustainability while in fights. What would you propose otherwise?

2. Why should a net even bother devoting dev time to completely reworking the entire trait/skill system of the game?

 

it sounds like a l2p issue and learning how to effectively manage your CDs, Stunbreaks, etc. I've mained thief for 5 years, and I've never had difficulty with semi/perma stealth builds. 9 times out of 10 they do such minuscule damage that you can just avoid them all together or sustain them enough to where they give up. Semi/Perma Stealth has always, and probably always will be - a anti-noob build

[xZombieTaco.5809]

> @"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:

> > @"TwiceDead.1963" said:

 

> Stealth doesn't need to be removed, I know some people would like that, but it's not needed. What is needed are some BUILDS, need to be adjusted to stop it's abuse, it doesn't need to be a blanket change to stealth either, as that will hurt other classes and builds. While core would need some changes over all, it would not hurt builds that don't fully depend on stealth for cheese one hit builds and constant resetting.

>

> A good example of someone playing a build with minimal stealth use, while still having access to it, however stealth is still available to remove some pressure.

>

>

 

You're posting a vid from a highly skilled player 2 years ago. This build doesn't stand up today at all with the endurance redux.

[xZombieTaco.5809]

> @"Spartacus.3192" said:

> I've said it before stealth in GW2 should be amended as follows.

>

> 1. Stealth default speed should be 66% of normal speed. (when you're sneaking around you should be moving slower than someone who is just running in plain view).

> 2. Traits should be able to increase speed in stealth BUT NEVER faster than 100% normal speed.

> 3. Swiftness or Superspeed should not affect someone in stealth. ONLY traits can increase movement in stealth.

> 4. This way someone with swiftness should be able to out run someone in stealth. I mean come on. Someone sprinting like Usain Bolt should be able to outrun someone trying not be seen.

>

> This amendment alone will make it such that the stealth player will not want to remain in semi or perma stealth because he will not be able to keep up with someone who doesn't want to fight him.

 

You're proposing nerfs to a class that's already gone from Top Tier dueling/1v2 scenarios being unable to 1v1 effectively at all since PoF. What do you want next? Normal auto attack chains to be nerfed (Again) because Lotus strike has the potential to crit 2.5k on a warrior?

[Spartacus.3192]

> @"xZombieTaco.5809" said:

> > @"Spartacus.3192" said:

> > I've said it before stealth in GW2 should be amended as follows.

> >

> > 1. Stealth default speed should be 66% of normal speed. (when you're sneaking around you should be moving slower than someone who is just running in plain view).

> > 2. Traits should be able to increase speed in stealth BUT NEVER faster than 100% normal speed.

> > 3. Swiftness or Superspeed should not affect someone in stealth. ONLY traits can increase movement in stealth.

> > 4. This way someone with swiftness should be able to out run someone in stealth. I mean come on. Someone sprinting like Usain Bolt should be able to outrun someone trying not be seen.

> >

> > This amendment alone will make it such that the stealth player will not want to remain in semi or perma stealth because he will not be able to keep up with someone who doesn't want to fight him.

>

> You're proposing nerfs to a class that's already gone from Top Tier dueling/1v2 scenarios being unable to 1v1 effectively at all since PoF. What do you want next? Normal auto attack chains to be nerfed (Again) because Lotus strike has the potential to crit 2.5k on a warrior?

 

Other traits, damage modifiers can be buffed to bring its "duelling" ability up to scratch. However please note that a Deadeye doesn't "duel" from over 1200 range away while stealthed.

[avey.4201]

Anet should add a 2-3 second reveal when leaving stealth, sure stack your stealth and go out for your 1 hit cheese, I fight many deadeyes who do this, I'm glass and have no problem with it, but when you dodge their burst they have stealth on dodge so they shoot and dodge, therefore you dodge their 1 shot, but before you land your dodge they have restealthed leaving no window to counter attack, or retaliate, I have a reveal on DH, but it's not an AoE, and throwing this randomly can = death.

If I get some objects to break line of sights I've managed to trick them into traps, but when your far from any safe area, and especially when no objects around to break line of sight, I've had 5 minute fights of nothing but standing and dodging the pew pew, basically you stand there dodging until you get too bored, or make a mistake, they sure don't have any pressure or tight window to maintain the stealth.

[Straegen.2938]

My original post isn't about removing stealth. My original post is about introducing more counter-play to stealth. There are already several solid non-stealth thief, mesmer builds so adjusting stealth and its various traits/skills isn't going to destroy these classes or even stealth builds.

 

The "flaw" in the GW2 stealth design is that builds exist that hit like a truck from nowhere and literally disappear a second later and few classes have an effective counter option to the mechanic. This is simply a fact and has driven out more than one player from WvW.

[crepuscular.9047]

> @"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:

> But I thought this kind of play was fun and enjoyable?

>

> The only reason I got the kill was by baiting him, let him get cocky, as the only way you get the kill is by them over investing, other wise it's just reset after reset.

>

>

>

 

i fell asleep after just 1 min, was so boring to watch

 

perma stealth to get behind enemy line and cause disruptions to the supply line is fine

 

but perma dealth in combat is pure stupid, should throw a 99 invulnerable debuff while in stealth, there should not be 0% risk of being in stealth

[Lociaz.4027]

> @"NuhDah.9812" said:

> > @"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:

> > > @"TwiceDead.1963" said:

> > > Yes, you are completely right. Complete Stealth is a garbage mechanic that's boring to fight with and against.

> > >

> > > However, Thief exists. One of Thiefs class-mechanics is based and balanced around Stealth in it's current iteration. If you remove stealth, you have to completely revise how stealth-attacks work for Thieves, and consequently rework/buff the hell out of them since you leave a huge vacuum in their defensive arsenal if you remove it.

> > >

> > > So yeah. Stealth sucks. Even some thieves decide to run S/D Core, which has limited stealth application, in exchange for a more visible but evasive playstyle.

> >

> > Stealth doesn't need to be removed, I know some people would like that, but it's not needed. What is needed are some BUILDS, need to be adjusted to stop it's abuse, it doesn't need to be a blanket change to stealth either, as that will hurt other classes and builds. While core would need some changes over all, it would not hurt builds that don't fully depend on stealth for cheese one hit builds and constant resetting.

> >

> > A good example of someone playing a build with minimal stealth use, while still having access to it, however stealth is still available to remove some pressure.

> >

> >

>

> Woh, the times when DrD was like that are long gone. In the meanwhile they nerfed the endurance generation a lot, nerfed staff an dp, nerfed PI, nerfed leaps, nerfed dash... so yeah, the next logical step is to kill stealth too...

 

Yeah, but... The already nerfed stealth by the sentries that's revealing you all time. I'm fine with upgraded towers but sentries.... Seriously?! Bring it back as it was. Or buff and nerf classes. Balance it more....

 

[Emi.4152]

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> Oh and before I forget, if we are down for stealth-related balances apart from the problems with perma-invis Deadeyes, and that the ability to do stealth-stacking greatly reduces the opponent's ability to 'sense' an attack window in the next 3-4 seconds:

>

> Instead of looking at Deadeyes only, lets not forget that Mesmers and Rangers can do the same unhealthy spike damage from stealth.

> The issue isn't specifically a Deadeye-only problem.

> Damage from stealth as a whole needs to be looked at, not because the damage is high, but because it comes from stealth with massively reduced tells.

> This gives opponents very little reaction time to handle a stealth attack and consequently its damage has to be reduced.

> **The main issue is reduced tells resulting in very little reaction time.**

> **Assuming we keep stealth mechanics as it is, without increasing its tells**, then the damage has to go.

> No class should be rewarded for doing spike damage from invis that already has extremely reduced tells.

> This needs to be implemented across all classes and it will make sense to tackle the stealth damage problem as a whole rather than look at specific classes.

>

> Of course, if we want to look at the stealth mechanics itself instead of nerfing its damage, then like other posters have suggested to make it a semi-transparent figure or to increase the access of reveals greatly across all the classes' core skills would help.

 

Outside of deadeye, tells for an incoming stealth burst is... numerous and obvious. mesmers either have a loud sound effect or will be pointing up at the sky like superman, within visual / audio range, and then *gasp* disappear! the burst itself isn't truly from stealth. dp thieves will make a BIG BANG and leave smoke circles, that... that they leap through in an overly dramatic fashion. dagger off-hand thieves will.. literally need slap you to stealth. rangers will leave a giant field of smoke... or be shooting at you. engis will have.... a helicopter following them... all of it, in visual range.

 

*The Stealth Burst* doesn't just come out of nowhere. You always know, or should have known, that a high burst [enter class here] is close by, and get to watch them enter stealth. That is the tell! look around, are you the most dangerous damage dealer with limited defenses around? if so, YOU are the target. do something! If not, find that squishy dpser on your side and peel for them!! If you see a burst [enter class here] go into stealth, stare at the general area angrily, then proceed to walk around like nothing happened. You deserved it... is all i can say.

 

FAQ

Q: what if they stealth behind a wall?!

A: you can still hear it! plus, for all you know, there's a zerg behind that wall! run for your life!

 

Q: what if i saw the burst coming and still got hit by it?

A: that's a question of skill...

 

Q: it's not fair! they should face me on a flat ground, we should bow, and proceed to gallantly run at each other to fight!

A: you... i... can't help you there.

 

Q: the damage is too high! coming out of a no tell instant hit stealth attack!

A: there are lots of tells... on the other hand, how much damage exactly, do you feel a full glass character with very few defenses should be able to do? O_o

[NuhDah.9812]

> @"Lociaz.4027" said:

> > @"NuhDah.9812" said:

> > > @"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:

> > > > @"TwiceDead.1963" said:

> > > > Yes, you are completely right. Complete Stealth is a garbage mechanic that's boring to fight with and against.

> > > >

> > > > However, Thief exists. One of Thiefs class-mechanics is based and balanced around Stealth in it's current iteration. If you remove stealth, you have to completely revise how stealth-attacks work for Thieves, and consequently rework/buff the hell out of them since you leave a huge vacuum in their defensive arsenal if you remove it.

> > > >

> > > > So yeah. Stealth sucks. Even some thieves decide to run S/D Core, which has limited stealth application, in exchange for a more visible but evasive playstyle.

> > >

> > > Stealth doesn't need to be removed, I know some people would like that, but it's not needed. What is needed are some BUILDS, need to be adjusted to stop it's abuse, it doesn't need to be a blanket change to stealth either, as that will hurt other classes and builds. While core would need some changes over all, it would not hurt builds that don't fully depend on stealth for cheese one hit builds and constant resetting.

> > >

> > > A good example of someone playing a build with minimal stealth use, while still having access to it, however stealth is still available to remove some pressure.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Woh, the times when DrD was like that are long gone. In the meanwhile they nerfed the endurance generation a lot, nerfed staff an dp, nerfed PI, nerfed leaps, nerfed dash... so yeah, the next logical step is to kill stealth too...

>

> Yeah, but... The already nerfed stealth by the sentries that's revealing you all time. I'm fine with upgraded towers but sentries.... Seriously?! Bring it back as it was. Or buff and nerf classes. Balance it more....

>

 

Sentries, I don't mind them too much. In a way it makes sneaking around them, or forcing you, as a thief, to make some prepartions of the field/choose where you fight and ambush more carefully. It's part of the thrill of the battle, if I may choose those words. Sometimes annoying, but not as much as being thrown traps at. Whatever, they had to do something about DE stealth camping in keeps and towers.

 

But yeah, with how things are going, how much people prefere crying about stealth instead of learning the combat system and thinking of ways to play smart about it with the tools at their disposal, I wouldn't be surprised if one day stealth will be killed for real, just for the sake of people who can't adapt on the spot.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"crepuscular.9047" said:

> > @"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:

> > But I thought this kind of play was fun and enjoyable?

> >

> > The only reason I got the kill was by baiting him, let him get cocky, as the only way you get the kill is by them over investing, other wise it's just reset after reset.

> >

> >

> >

>

> i fell asleep after just 1 min, was so boring to watch

>

> perma stealth to get behind enemy line and cause disruptions to the supply line is fine

>

> but perma dealth in combat is pure stupid, should throw a 99 invulnerable debuff while in stealth, there should not be 0% risk of being in stealth

Well, why do you think thief has one of the lowest base hp in the game? Why do most of them build for dps? Good thieves can be hella good but they share the same flaws as everybody else that build for damage. Bad thieves, well... The stealth can be annoying, but it's really no different from any other OP class mechanic, which all of them have one way or another, either in solo or group combat. At the the end of the day what you want next to you in combat is an *effective* player.

 

Here's another video for funs sake. I promise you'll be bored within 30s instead.

 

 

A good warrior with zero stealth would have brought me down far quicker, as would... hm... well literally any other player worth his salt on any other class. I'm sure his buddies saluted his awesome permastealthing skillz.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"crepuscular.9047" said:

> > > @"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:

> > > But I thought this kind of play was fun and enjoyable?

> > >

> > > The only reason I got the kill was by baiting him, let him get cocky, as the only way you get the kill is by them over investing, other wise it's just reset after reset.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > i fell asleep after just 1 min, was so boring to watch

> >

> > perma stealth to get behind enemy line and cause disruptions to the supply line is fine

> >

> > but perma dealth in combat is pure stupid, should throw a 99 invulnerable debuff while in stealth, there should not be 0% risk of being in stealth

> Well, why do you think thief has one of the lowest base hp in the game? Why do most of them build for dps? Good thieves can be hella good but they share the same flaws as everybody else that build for damage. Bad thieves, well... The stealth can be annoying, but it's really no different from any other OP class mechanic, which all of them have one way or another, either in solo or group combat. At the the end of the day what you want next to you in combat is an *effective* player.

>

> Here's another video for funs sake. I promise you'll be bored within 30s instead.

>

>

>

> A good warrior with zero stealth would have brought me down far quicker, as would... hm... well literally any other player worth his salt on any other class. I'm sure his buddies saluted his awesome permastealthing skillz.

 

Nope we don't, if I ever saw that thief die I'd join you in the CJ and decorating. Your server has 2 perma stealth DE's that like to wait at duel spots and kill anyone duelling with 18k BS, one is bad enough to kill but the other high tails it outta there if he doesn't manage the kill and lurks nearby to make sure you have 0 fun.

 

Rather than implementing these marked changes I think they need a hard cap on stealth duration, rebalance duration and cool down across classes that do use stealth and force reveal after exiting stealth. Then remove shadow meld, when you bring out counters to counters you know someone goofed somewhere.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> Your server has 2 perma stealth DE's that like to wait at duel spots and kill anyone duelling with 18k BS, one is bad enough to kill but the other high tails it outta there if he doesn't manage the kill and lurks nearby to make sure you have 0 fun.

That means very little I'm on their link that everybody bandwagoned to (my favorite blocked people have returned, yay). But there are people like that everywhere and well, thats WvW. There are no rules for "fun".

[Avion Blade.4869]

The simple answer is to lose stealth the moment the player hits an attack ability, and the stealth is lost before the animation of attack. Anyone agree or no? As mirage I'm fine with that. Gives all classes chances to react, at least give them the ability to see the opponent before damage is taken, not see them after damage is taken.