Fortus.6175 Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 I had a shower thought, fighting mirage is all about looking at the UI constantly to see if you have confusion and torment. If you dont have an easily accessible condi clear that requires one click (unlike changing attunement/kit/weapon slot and then casting an ability) , or for you to not move (like setting up water field and then using another skill like leap) then the only other thing you can really do is take your hands off your keyboard and constantly be looking at your UI more than the opponent. I thought GW2 wanted us to move away from UI combat, and overall I dont think it is fun to **not do anything** as the best possible answer. Anyways, soulbeasts too strong atm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteepledHat.1345 Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 Play a mirage. You're gonna get a feel for the condi burst potential and what skills do. Then you won't stare at the ui. Actually, pretty much every mesmer complaint thread would be mitigated if people would just play mesmer for 30 hours or so. If you wanna be competitive you have to play and learn in depth about every class... especially the trickster ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fortus.6175 Posted December 17, 2018 Author Share Posted December 17, 2018 > @"SteepledHat.1345" said: > Play a mirage. You're gonna get a feel for the condi burst potential and what skills do. Then you won't stare at the ui. > > > Actually, pretty much every mesmer complaint thread would be mitigated if people would just play mesmer for 30 hours or so. If you wanna be competitive you have to play and learn in depth about every class... especially the trickster ones. I have played mesmer :D ! I know what they do, and thats not what I'm talking about. Please give my post a read. I'm not talking about not knowing what they do, and I have been playing PvP since beta, I'm competitive and in plat so I think as far as game knowledge goes, Im fine. All I'm saying is that fighting mesmers is more about paying attention to the UI more than anything, i never said anything about power levels, balance or the such (other than the soulbeast which imo are too trong). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 I love looking at the UI to confirm I have the right mirage, not moving, and not using skills while the mirage is unloading their skillbar on me. I also like missing my high telegraph moves due to on demand blind and distortion, in addition to having stuns I do manage to land not actually work. Feels fun man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herrmartell.7109 Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 > @"Fortus.6175" said: > I'm competitive and in plat so I think as far as game knowledge goes, Im fine. This means absolutely nothing at all. Being in Silver, Gold, Platinum, Whatever has more to do with good matching than individual skill, and understanding of a class mechanics. Just learn to adapt. Mesmer having too many clones? Smash some AoE. Mesmer is self healing? Burst some interrupts. Mesmer still winning against you? Learn to play your class, and stop QQ on the forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 > @"herrmartell.7109" said: > Mesmer is self healing? Burst some interrupts. Doesn't false oasis have something like a .75 second cast time and thus cannot be interrupted if they choose to mirage cloak while using it? Not that specifically that is an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > @"herrmartell.7109" said: > > Mesmer is self healing? Burst some interrupts. > > Doesn't false oasis have something like a .75 second cast time and thus cannot be interrupted if they choose to mirage cloak while using it? > > Not that specifically that is an issue. > > Yep, a good player will LoS or use something to cover their heal as any player worth playing against would usually have a CC ready for the heal. Seems like skill has pretty much left the game if people haven't realised that. Edit: Missed a word out :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simonoly.4352 Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 Aren't we all constantly checking the UI anyway regardless of what we're fighting? It's kind of important for just about everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herrmartell.7109 Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > @"herrmartell.7109" said: > > Mesmer is self healing? Burst some interrupts. > > Doesn't false oasis have something like a .75 second cast time and thus cannot be interrupted if they choose to mirage cloak while using it? > > Not that specifically that is an issue. > > Well, if you get picky, probably any class has a way to counter anything in a very ideal scenario. The truth is, the real deal is always far from your ideal setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curunen.8729 Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 A related note - turn volume up and listen to sound effects for things like Mirage Cloak. There are a number of skills/effects on mesmer that are much easier to hear than to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solori.6025 Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 ...Are we not supposed to be looking at the UI anyway? Like...is ignoring UI a legitimate thing people do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 > @"Solori.6025" said: > ...Are we not supposed to be looking at the UI anyway? > Like...is ignoring UI a legitimate thing people do? I sure as hell hope not, but I think the whole point is if you have to shift your focus to the UI bar to micromanage conditions in order to have a shot at the win, without even considering what the mirage is doing on the field, there's probably something wrong. Again, not that I think this is the issue. I'd be fine with micromanaging condis if my kittening stuns or interrupts had to make the mirage think instead of "oh, theres a weird effect on me, guess I'll just dodge again" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solori.6025 Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > ...Are we not supposed to be looking at the UI anyway? > > Like...is ignoring UI a legitimate thing people do? > > I sure as hell hope not, but I think the whole point is if you have to shift your focus to the UI bar to micromanage conditions in order to have a shot at the win, without even considering what the mirage is doing on the field, there's probably something wrong. > > Again, not that I think this is the issue. I'd be fine with micromanaging condis if my kittening stuns or interrupts had to make the mirage think instead of "oh, theres a weird effect on me, guess I'll just dodge again" While I don't and have never liked condi mirage. I don't think getting mirage cloak will make a skill that has been interrupted continue as if it wasn't.. I don't think that is how it works. And EM is terrible . . Also, you are aware that mirage like almost every class has only two dodges right? If the mirage is saving those two dodges for only defensive purposes their offense suffers, and vice versa. Again not a fan of condimirage, just that with all the nerfs hitting the wrong areas of mirage ( it's why power is now a dead spec) I would love it if people actually addressed the REAL issue and not everything they don't like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idolin.2831 Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 > @"herrmartell.7109" said: > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > @"herrmartell.7109" said: > > > Mesmer is self healing? Burst some interrupts. > > > > Doesn't false oasis have something like a .75 second cast time and thus cannot be interrupted if they choose to mirage cloak while using it? > > > > Not that specifically that is an issue. > > > > > > Well, if you get picky, probably any class has a way to counter anything in a very ideal scenario. The truth is, the real deal is always far from your ideal setup. That's not picky at all. Of course all classes have a way to counter that - he's just stating a case in which mirages might have an easier/more accessible way to cover their healing. Also in this case the real deal isn't that far away from the ideal setup - it's just dodging but in the mirage's case it can be done while healing too. I don't see how that's too hard to pull off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herrmartell.7109 Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 > @"idolin.2831" said: > > @"herrmartell.7109" said: > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > @"herrmartell.7109" said: > > > > Mesmer is self healing? Burst some interrupts. > > > > > > Doesn't false oasis have something like a .75 second cast time and thus cannot be interrupted if they choose to mirage cloak while using it? > > > > > > Not that specifically that is an issue. > > > > > > > > > > Well, if you get picky, probably any class has a way to counter anything in a very ideal scenario. The truth is, the real deal is always far from your ideal setup. > > That's not picky at all. Of course all classes have a way to counter that - he's just stating a case in which mirages might have an easier/more accessible way to cover their healing. Also in this case the real deal isn't that far away from the ideal setup - it's just dodging but in the mirage's case it can be done while healing too. I don't see how that's too hard to pull off. You make it sound as if it was an impossible task, mate. Spoiler alert: it isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.5684 Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 > @"Fortus.6175" said: > I had a shower thought, fighting mirage is all about looking at the UI constantly to see if you have confusion and torment. If you dont have an easily accessible condi clear that requires one click (unlike changing attunement/kit/weapon slot and then casting an ability) , or for you to not move (like setting up water field and then using another skill like leap) then the only other thing you can really do is take your hands off your keyboard and constantly be looking at your UI more than the opponent. > > I thought GW2 wanted us to move away from UI combat, and overall I dont think it is fun to **not do anything** as the best possible answer. > > Anyways, soulbeasts too strong atm. So you do not check your UI at least every sec? And why would you need to look at your keyboard.? Your eyes should be only looking at the screen. Honestly, a normal healthy person can track multiple enemies on the screen, see and understand what skills they are casting, notice what the allies are doing and keep track of the UI, ALL the time. And also not need to look at the keyboard or mouse. This may seem like much, but after you played the game for a while it is almost automatic. If it is not (assuming you are normal healthy person) you just lack experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idolin.2831 Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 > @"herrmartell.7109" said: > > @"idolin.2831" said: > > > @"herrmartell.7109" said: > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > > @"herrmartell.7109" said: > > > > > Mesmer is self healing? Burst some interrupts. > > > > > > > > Doesn't false oasis have something like a .75 second cast time and thus cannot be interrupted if they choose to mirage cloak while using it? > > > > > > > > Not that specifically that is an issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, if you get picky, probably any class has a way to counter anything in a very ideal scenario. The truth is, the real deal is always far from your ideal setup. > > > > That's not picky at all. Of course all classes have a way to counter that - he's just stating a case in which mirages might have an easier/more accessible way to cover their healing. Also in this case the real deal isn't that far away from the ideal setup - it's just dodging but in the mirage's case it can be done while healing too. I don't see how that's too hard to pull off. > > You make it sound as if it was an impossible task, mate. Spoiler alert: it isn't. Hmm what? My point was it's easy to pull off, it's not impossible at all. In this case the real deal isn't far from the ideal setup, contrast to what you said "the real deal is always far from your ideal setup". What are you referring to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 > @"herrmartell.7109" said: > > @"Fortus.6175" said: > > I'm competitive and in plat so I think as far as game knowledge goes, Im fine. > > This means absolutely nothing at all. Being in Silver, Gold, Platinum, Whatever has more to do with good matching than individual skill, and understanding of a class mechanics. > > Just learn to adapt. Mesmer having too many clones? Smash some AoE. Mesmer is self healing? Burst some interrupts. > > Mesmer still winning against you? Learn to play your class, and stop QQ on the forums. and poison. You forgot to mention the one thing that lowers healing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPESHAL.9106 Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 This has been going on for over a year. They tried ONE midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried ANOTHER midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried aTHIRD midseason nerf...not enough. They did a few balance patches since then to add more nerfs...still not enough as Mesmers are far above most other professions in polls of the most OP. First, it's pretty embarrassing the state of OP mesmers were at the beginning of the year. I don't know how that left internal testing, but as we've seen with sigil updates and other patch things that require hotfixes, they don't seem to do a lot of internal testing or theorize about obvious problems that get discovered immediately by the playerbase. The kid gloves approach they take with Mesmers versus other professions is what's really head-scratching. Look how long it took them to nerf portal when it was the most game changing utility and they gave it to ONLY Mesmers...this is on top of being the profession with the most AI, high mobility, stealth, biggest power burst, biggest condi burst, most scaling defenses, most interrupts, lowest cooldown, shortest cast times, and virtually no resources to manage like every other profession (initiative, life force, adrenaline, energy, etc). No matter what they kid glove nerf, there's always a bunch of other builds just as powerful to use with mesmers because they literally are given the opportunity to build for anything. At one time, they were even unkillable bunkers, so this isn't just a one period isolated time of mesmers being broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 > @"Solori.6025" said: > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > ...Are we not supposed to be looking at the UI anyway? > > > Like...is ignoring UI a legitimate thing people do? > > > > I sure as hell hope not, but I think the whole point is if you have to shift your focus to the UI bar to micromanage conditions in order to have a shot at the win, without even considering what the mirage is doing on the field, there's probably something wrong. > > > > Again, not that I think this is the issue. I'd be fine with micromanaging condis if my kittening stuns or interrupts had to make the mirage think instead of "oh, theres a weird effect on me, guess I'll just dodge again" > > While I don't and have never liked condi mirage. > I don't think getting mirage cloak will make a skill that has been interrupted continue as if it wasn't.. I don't think that is how it works. > And EM is terrible . . > Also, you are aware that mirage like almost every class has only two dodges right? > If the mirage is saving those two dodges for only defensive purposes their offense suffers, and vice versa. > > Again not a fan of condimirage, just that with all the nerfs hitting the wrong areas of mirage ( it's why power is now a dead spec) I would love it if people actually addressed the REAL issue and not everything they don't like. Fair enough~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ugrakarma.9416 Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 > @"SteepledHat.1345" said: > Play a mirage. You're gonna get a feel for the condi burst potential and what skills do. Then you won't stare at the ui. > > > Actually, pretty much every mesmer complaint thread would be mitigated if people would just play mesmer for 30 hours or so. If you wanna be competitive you have to play and learn in depth about every class... especially the trickster ones. this just proves that the Mirage is broken and pvp has design problems. Playing 1 year of neverwinter pvp, I never had to create 1 character from another class just to learn how to counter-attack it. The learning curve must come from the combat itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solori.6025 Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 > @"ugrakarma.9416" said: > > @"SteepledHat.1345" said: > > Play a mirage. You're gonna get a feel for the condi burst potential and what skills do. Then you won't stare at the ui. > > > > > > Actually, pretty much every mesmer complaint thread would be mitigated if people would just play mesmer for 30 hours or so. If you wanna be competitive you have to play and learn in depth about every class... especially the trickster ones. > > this just proves that the Mirage is broken and pvp has design problems. Playing 1 year of neverwinter pvp, I never had to create 1 character from another class just to learn how to counter-attack it. The learning curve must come from the combat itself. That's how pvp has been in GW2 since launch. The best way to understand any class in this game is to play it. People suggest doing so, so that cry babies wont flood the forum with straight up lies or misunderstandings on class mechanics ( like saying you can reflect on dodge and blind on shatter in the same build, as is listed on meta battle) Also cuts down on people thinking a class can run 5 traitlines ( or 30/30/30/30/30) simultaniously . Which at some point people actually thought was possible :D How is Neverwinter? Last I saw the numbers were not favorable, but that was a couple years ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Tempest.7584 Posted December 25, 2018 Share Posted December 25, 2018 > @"SPESHAL.9106" said: > This has been going on for over a year. They tried ONE midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried ANOTHER midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried aTHIRD midseason nerf...not enough. They did a few balance patches since then to add more nerfs...**still not enough as Mesmers are far above most other professions in polls of the most OP**. There are polls, like this one started by a mesmer hater, which reflect a tired bias (so many votes, so few actual reasons): https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63182/most-op-class-dec-14-2018/p1 and then there is reality: Mesmers are underrepresented in the leaderboards. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63990/mesmer-is-trash-and-it-needs-buffs#latest But OP, nerf moar, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted December 25, 2018 Share Posted December 25, 2018 > @"SPESHAL.9106" said: > This has been going on for over a year. They tried ONE midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried ANOTHER midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried aTHIRD midseason nerf...not enough. They did a few balance patches since then to add more nerfs...still not enough as Mesmers are far above most other professions in polls of the most OP. > > First, it's pretty embarrassing the state of OP mesmers were at the beginning of the year. I don't know how that left internal testing, but as we've seen with sigil updates and other patch things that require hotfixes, they don't seem to do a lot of internal testing or theorize about obvious problems that get discovered immediately by the playerbase. > > The kid gloves approach they take with Mesmers versus other professions is what's really head-scratching. Look how long it took them to nerf portal when it was the most game changing utility and they gave it to ONLY Mesmers...this is on top of being the profession with the most AI, high mobility, stealth, biggest power burst, biggest condi burst, most scaling defenses, most interrupts, lowest cooldown, shortest cast times, and virtually no resources to manage like every other profession (initiative, life force, adrenaline, energy, etc). > > No matter what they kid glove nerf, there's always a bunch of other builds just as powerful to use with mesmers because they literally are given the opportunity to build for anything. At one time, they were even unkillable bunkers, so this isn't just a one period isolated time of mesmers being broken. Whining about portal is like whining about a thief shadow step juking you into getting decapped. Portal should be unnerfed immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted December 25, 2018 Share Posted December 25, 2018 > @"Fortus.6175" said: > I had a shower thought, fighting mirage is all about looking at the UI constantly to see if you have confusion and torment. If you dont have an easily accessible condi clear that requires one click (unlike changing attunement/kit/weapon slot and then casting an ability) , or for you to not move (like setting up water field and then using another skill like leap) then the only other thing you can really do is take your hands off your keyboard and constantly be looking at your UI more than the opponent. > > I thought GW2 wanted us to move away from UI combat, and overall I dont think it is fun to **not do anything** as the best possible answer. > > Anyways, soulbeasts too strong atm. You're not wrong, there was a regression in the way that confusion works. It was changed years ago to work more of a dot and not exclusively as something that promotes inaction, then they changed it back to that. I mean honestly, at this point i stopped caring, stopped PvPing altogether a year ago, and i stopped expecting the balance team to have a sense of direction. They do seem to have found one recently, or at least they claim to have one, but having seen no plans or guidelines published, i can't say they'll be successful. There's little to no calls for feedback, and even if they had the best track record in the world, which they don't, not even close, there's somewhat of a lack of humility in not allowing the thousands (millions according to them) of minds that engage the game on a daily basis to help and feedback into their plans. > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"SPESHAL.9106" said: > > This has been going on for over a year. They tried ONE midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried ANOTHER midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried aTHIRD midseason nerf...not enough. They did a few balance patches since then to add more nerfs...still not enough as Mesmers are far above most other professions in polls of the most OP. > > > > First, it's pretty embarrassing the state of OP mesmers were at the beginning of the year. I don't know how that left internal testing, but as we've seen with sigil updates and other patch things that require hotfixes, they don't seem to do a lot of internal testing or theorize about obvious problems that get discovered immediately by the playerbase. > > > > The kid gloves approach they take with Mesmers versus other professions is what's really head-scratching. Look how long it took them to nerf portal when it was the most game changing utility and they gave it to ONLY Mesmers...this is on top of being the profession with the most AI, high mobility, stealth, biggest power burst, biggest condi burst, most scaling defenses, most interrupts, lowest cooldown, shortest cast times, and virtually no resources to manage like every other profession (initiative, life force, adrenaline, energy, etc). > > > > No matter what they kid glove nerf, there's always a bunch of other builds just as powerful to use with mesmers because they literally are given the opportunity to build for anything. At one time, they were even unkillable bunkers, so this isn't just a one period isolated time of mesmers being broken. > > Whining about portal is like whining about a thief shadow step juking you into getting decapped. Portal should be unnerfed immediately. Honestly, you're 100% right. Portals were always a strong tactical tool, and that was a great play maker or zoning tool. Nerfing that really sends a message that the game is going to be less and less about tactics and team play. I mean the guy that has been in charge of PvP does seem to think that a ranked team queue is less competitive, so no wonder cooperation is being downplayed. (not that portal isn't/wasn't also a great individual tool) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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