redesign racial skills

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Tabootrinket.2631" said:

> They should introduce a race changing item in the gem store.

We already know that this isn't plausible because of the way that the personal story is tied to racial selection at character creation.

 

 

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Tabootrinket.2631" said:

 

> And then, please make Tengus playable :D

 

There are [many threads already](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/783600/#Comment_783600 "many threads already") about other playable races. I suggest that you make your request in one of those?

[TheGrimm.5624]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> While I can agree with the general gist and idea of what you are saying, there is a difference between balance when it affects all classes and when it forces specific races.

>

> I personally have 29 maxed (and minimum exotic geared characters, all different race and class combinations) so I could care less if a race suddenly becomes overpowered or "must play" (given I have 3 legendary armors and 20-30 full ascended sets as either sets or tokens). It would even be a great way for Arenanet to sell more character slots and force people to either re-roll or shell out money for a new character slot to make class X of race Y. Somehow I doubt that would go over well with a majority of the player base though.

>

> On the same note, what happens when a balance change suddenly mixes things up again. People now have to again purchase more character slots or remake characters. An absolutely amazing idea to improve monetization for the game. Terrible from a balance and fun perspective. Unless they offer race changes (which the official word is: not going to happen since to difficult). Which I guess would also be a great way to get more money out of players.

>

> Maybe I was missing the point of these threads all these years. Maybe people just want Arenanet to be able to make more money. In that case, sure, let's ask for buffs to racial skills.

 

I think we are in the same position, 30 fully ascended toons with different mixes. When I find a build I enjoy I lock it into place and then instead of changing will go ahead and create a new toon instead that will have a different play style. I also agree I have friends that absolutely hate it when ANet makes a change and they feel they now have to fully re-gear. It drives people away from game since it creates that feeling that they wasted time. And for people that have limited play time it impacts them all the more.

 

That said, it shouldn't be up to the players to come up with balance or to say well we can't do this because balance. That's ANets job. We pay them for that whenever we buy an expansion or purchase from the gem store. I am one of those whales. When they do a good job I buy more stuff and gift things to others. When I feel they are off track or went IMO the wrong way they receive less funding. Players will have good and bad requests. Our job is to let Anet know of interest and its their job to figure out the equation of the can we/should we. Its very Jurassic Park, sure we can bring this thing to life, but should we. So from that aspect I agree it can be dangerous. In an ideal world there would be reasons to have one of each race and class and the play styles should be fun, effective, interesting and different. ANet should sell us on, don't want another character spot, wink wink nudge nudge. Now we may not make it there in GW2, but if we have differing races in GW3, that should be the goal. If your final stop in the journey is, its meta, then something failed along the way.

 

And from one alt-o-holic to another, are you ready for the next expansion? Have enough WvW currencies to unlock the skills but still have a few more sets of armor to prep for. More mats and LS3 currencies to go! Good hunting!

 

[TheGrimm.5624]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > @"Tabootrinket.2631" said:

> > They should introduce a race changing item in the gem store.

> We already know that this isn't plausible because of the way that the personal story is tied to racial selection at character creation.

>

 

I don't know I agree with this. If a player is already ok with a race change token then they are more than likely ok with loss of immersion. Now I haven't mapped it out but I am betting that most of the initial stories all have the same number of steps. And if not then its a matter of mapping saying this quest is equal to that one. So it might be just a matter of the player was on step 8 of 16 before they entered the story line where it converges. Move them to that same quest on the new race. They retain their achievements for what they did but don't get the ones they skipped by not playing thru at that race and continue from there. From ANet's side its a what's the cost of the coding to have a player run thru a makeover kit style mechanism and back end database triggers versus income from gem store sales assuming this would have to be a cash sales versus gem sale. So again, let ANet say we can't see how to do that versus the players saying they can't do it. Be an optimist! Even if in real life we have to play a realist aka a pessimist.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"TheGrimm.5624" said:

> > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > > @"Tabootrinket.2631" said:

> > > They should introduce a race changing item in the gem store.

> > We already know that this isn't plausible because of the way that the personal story is tied to racial selection at character creation.

> >

>

> I don't know I agree with this. If a player is already ok with a race change token then they are more than likely ok with loss of immersion. Now I haven't mapped it out but I am betting that most of the initial stories all have the same number of steps. And if not then its a matter of mapping saying this quest is equal to that one. So it might be just a matter of the player was on step 8 of 16 before they entered the story line where it converges. Move them to that same quest on the new race. They retain their achievements for what they did but don't get the ones they skipped by not playing thru at that race and continue from there. From ANet's side its a what's the cost of the coding to have a player run thru a makeover kit style mechanism and back end database triggers versus income from gem store sales assuming this would have to be a cash sales versus gem sale. So again, let ANet say we can't see how to do that versus the players saying they can't do it. Be an optimist! Even if in real life we have to play a realist aka a pessimist.

Mmmmm... I pretty sure somewhere the Devs have said that they can't do this for the PS reasons. I'm going to summon @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" who seems to be able to fish these things from the forums with much greater ease than I. ;)

 

[TheGrimm.5624]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

 

> Mmmmm... I pretty sure somewhere the Devs have said that they can't do this for the PS reasons. I'm going to summon @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" who seems to be able to fish these things from the forums with much greater ease than I. ;)

>

 

Oh, now your playing dirty. :) lolz. Could be, I am getting old and not remembering a thread. Moar coffeez!

 

[Weindrasi.3805]

They should remove racial skills from the skill bar entirely, make them an f7, f8 skill in the corner (so revenants and everyone else has equal access to them). Then they should redesign/buff the racial skills in PvE and just disable them completely for PvP, WvW, and raids. Problem solved.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

Racial Skills, like environmental skills, were an interesting concept. Both seem destined to be decidedly under-utilized because the opportunity cost is way too high for the benefits they offer (if, in fact, they offer anything that is not gotten better elsewhere).

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> The problem with racials is that they are race exclusive and depending on balance ppl could be feel forced to play some specific race, and limiting them only to ow would be a waste imho.

>

Exactly. Unlike the dog's breakfast that is WoW, where serious players pick the race they need, not the one they want, GW2 allows you to pick any race you want for any profession, based solely on your preference.

 

I agree that some of the racial skills are cool, and it would be nice if they would be more relevant, but having experienced this nonsense in WoW, I'd rather they remain irrelevant, and something reserved for meme/trolling, RP or casual fun.

 

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> I pretty sure somewhere the Devs have said that they can't do this for the PS reasons. I'm going to summon @"Illconceived Was Na.9781"

 

Here's my post on the same topic from December of last year.

I haven't found a specific dev comment that states outright the reasons. We do know that there are other things that they don't change due to the way the personal story is linked to a character: we can't replay the personal story even as the same race, we've seen bugs whenever devs have tinkered in any way with the PS, and we even see issues when players join up in a PS with slightly different backstories.

 

****

The short story is that we almost certainly will never be able to change the race of our characters. The reasons are as varied as the arguments in favor and boil down to: the costs far outweigh the benefits for something that already has an existing work around.

 

Among the factors involved in making any business decision:

* What would it take to design & implement this? What would it take to do it well?

* How many people would be interested in the feature? How much are they willing to pay?

 

The expenses referenced in the first point surprise a lot of folks unfamiliar with software. Is it easy to just change the race, since it just changes one piece of data? Well, no, because the game depends on assuming race doesn't change. On the obvious side: a few armors & skills are race-dependent; on the subtle side: the entire personal story depends on race. And we know it's not easy to change the personal story because of all the accidental bugs created when ANet attempted to re-order the bits that are identical for all characters. So it's not as simple as a gender change, which has no direct impact on anything in the game other than toggle the look of armor.

 

ANet also has data on how many people buy a name-change contract and new toon slots (whether discounted or not) and can estimate whether people are willing to pay a premium for a more expensive change, perhaps 1600 gems (since a gender change only costs 800). The number is going to be surprisingly small -- not all that many are willing to spend more than 800 gems on anything (see also: mountfit controversies)

 

And significantly, there's a viable work around: use a new character slot. It's not ideal (you can't keep your bag slots or crafting or map progress), but it covers everything else one would get with a race change contract -- in particular, it allows you to play a new race.

 

tl;dr it's a popular idea that is not going to happen, because it's a bad investment of resources.

 

------------------------

###### Responses from ANet About Race Changes

 

> [From CC Eva in late 2012](https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/suggestions/Request-Race-Change/394214)

> Answering to the OP´s question: no, the team is not considering to offer this particular feature to players.

.

> [From CC Eva, ~2013](https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Race-Change/272286)

> To change the race in the Gem store will not be an option in Guild Wars 2.

.

> [From Jonathan Smalling in early 2013](http://www.guildwars2guru.com/arenanet-tracker/topic/258544-race-change/)

>> Fan: I’d really like to change my race since it’s a asura and all the weapons get so small and it’s already lvl 80 so i find it a waste to make another one….

>> So i’ve been wondering if there would be something where i can change my race with

> Smalling: There is currently no Asuran technology that can rewrite the very makeup of a being’s DNA code. The Asura are a very smart people, no doubt. But that doesn’t mean they can use magic to change your molecular soul. And if they did… well then you’re not you, are you?

 

--------------------------

And for what it's worth, here's just 10 of the threads google found that have hashed (and rehashed) this idea already (on the old forums):

 

* 2013: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/merged-Will-race-change-be-available-ever/2867616

* 2013: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/asura/Race-change/2774856

* 2014: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Race-Change-possible-in-the-future/3913590

* 2015: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Race-change-on-gem-store-black-lion-chest/5253062

* 2015: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Race-Change-for-gem-purchase-please/5490887

* 2015: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Race-Change-UPDATE/5737485

* 2016: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Race-change-kits/2038639

* 2016: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Race-Change-Item-in-Gem-Store/6191659

* 2016: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Race-Sex-Name-Change/6413503

* 2017: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Race-change-please-for-the-love-of-god/6484281

 

And what might be the original (and perhaps the longest):

* https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/suggestions/Change-race-order-facility-merged/1395867

 

 

[kharmin.7683]

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" I knew that I could count on you! Kudos!!

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"TheGrimm.5624" said:

> And from one alt-o-holic to another, are you ready for the next expansion? Have enough WvW currencies to unlock the skills but still have a few more sets of armor to prep for. More mats and LS3 currencies to go! Good hunting!

>

 

Absolutely, all mains (all classes 1nce at least) are sitting at 350+ skill points and there are enough testimony of heroics banked to get the alts to finish the next elite specialization in case I feel like pushing every one immediately into a new build. :)

 

LWS3 and 4 currencies get collected via home instance daily and tomb of primeval kings. I do hope we get to see a legendary ring before that though, maybe in a similar fashion like Aurora.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > The problem with racials is that they are race exclusive and depending on balance ppl could be feel forced to play some specific race, and limiting them only to ow would be a waste imho.

> >

> Exactly. Unlike the dog's breakfast that is WoW, where serious players pick the race they need, not the one they want, GW2 allows you to pick any race you want for any profession, based solely on your preference.

>

> I agree that some of the racial skills are cool, and it would be nice if they would be more relevant, but having experienced this nonsense in WoW, I'd rather they remain irrelevant, and something reserved for meme/trolling, RP or casual fun.

>

 

Gw had already solved this issue back from the first game. The system exists it only a matter whether enough ppl want for it to happen.

[HiSaZuL.2843]

You already know anet is terrible at balancing. Why would you want to open that can of worms and turn it into an even worse situations for people that want to play a specific class in a specific way and it's utterly useless pile of garbage in "meta" now they should worry because they aren't current fotm race? Please...

 

I'd rather races didn't have "skills" at all. I'd rather they just spent an episode worth of resources and added more visual ompf to stuff. An asura engineer turret getting a different skin... doesn't need to be done from scratch... for gods sake there are plenty of models that can be reused as it is. A warriors banner looking different depending on race... an undead minions look giving a bit of homage to the race... Really not likely tho, since this would require time and resources which would make 0 money.

 

A far more viable thing to do would be taking existing skills and using them as special action or modifier for X slot. Or hell throw in a mastery or some such that triggers say racial heal skill when you are below whathaveyou health %... trigger a, b or c utility racial when you attack enemy for the first time... only allow it in open world because it's completely irrelevant. Racial skills have no place in pvp so keep them entirely out and call it a day. Keep them underwhelming so they aren't worth the effort or anything real in raids... and now you got your race fluff and it doesn't eat your slots.

 

But considering we still can't use half the skills in water because who knows why... this is never going to happen. Don't give me implementation reasoning please. Death novas "lesser poison cloud" is fine but the real version is not.... I'm sorry... it's all there already it's just disable because don't care reason. Until there is a way to sell this change/upgrade it won't happen.

[otto.5684]

> @"Balsa.3951" said:

> a lot of those skills have beautiful animations they are pushed back by being unusable with high recharge time

>

> I say don't waste them take a look at them make them pve world open only and let them be a fun thing to fill the gabs certain professions have.

>

> no need to waste those

>

> ps also rethink the mist wolf its a beautiful designed skill/pet give him to a ranger but don't waste that beauty

 

Let’s say Asura has a racial skill that does high fire damage. Played with a condi build that uses condi and fire damage (like FB), any none asura playing this build will be at a disadvantage. To solve this issue, racial skills have to be weaker than none racial skills.

 

They are meant for RP. Other than that it will be a balance issue.

[Balsa.3951]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"Balsa.3951" said:

> > a lot of those skills have beautiful animations they are pushed back by being unusable with high recharge time

> >

> > I say don't waste them take a look at them make them pve world open only and let them be a fun thing to fill the gabs certain professions have.

> >

> > no need to waste those

> >

> > ps also rethink the mist wolf its a beautiful designed skill/pet give him to a ranger but don't waste that beauty

>

> Let’s say Asura has a racial skill that does high fire damage. Played with a condi build that uses condi and fire damage (like FB), any none asura playing this build will be at a disadvantage. To solve this issue, racial skills have to be weaker than none racial skills.

>

> They are meant for RP. Other than that it will be a balance issue.

 

to be fair everything is a balance issue... lets say a thief has stealth.

 

i like those skills OW so they will not be an issue in raids and in pvp just some self fun in pve

[wraith.7243]

I agree op! Would be really nice. There are some that are really interesting, and could provide some cool gameplay options. Then again, that other MMO company down in Irvine, CA has been struggling to balance racial abilities for about 15 years now. That could be the quagmire they're trying to avoid.

[Leo G.4501]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> The problem with racials is that they are race exclusive and depending on balance ppl could be feel forced to play some specific race, and limiting them only to ow would be a waste imho.

 

Not discounting your point, but for discussion purposes, I'd like to argue it.

 

Is it really a bad thing to "feel forced" to play a specific race if its in a game mode that doesn't impact others? Consider that people already feel forced to play specific professions for specific content. Or use specific builds. Or even feel forced to play specific content. So what is the actual cost-benefit of compelling players to play specific races in open world gameplay? I'm sure one could point to imbalance for certain events but even then, who actually cares? No one can tell you what you NEED to play in open world nor can you be pressured.

 

At the other end of the spectrum, wouldn't it be better to compel players to make more characters with certain races if the options available look attractive enough? Sure, you could say "you should only have to worry about aesthetics when making a character" and that would still be true, but I think it'd be much more interesting if, for some reason, in some content out there, a player would feel compelled to play a Norn Thief because they had a great concept for a guy that transforms into a Raven or Leopard and actually be FUN vs never bothering at all.

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > The problem with racials is that they are race exclusive and depending on balance ppl could be feel forced to play some specific race, and limiting them only to ow would be a waste imho.

>

> Not discounting your point, but for discussion purposes, I'd like to argue it.

>

> Is it really a bad thing to "feel forced" to play a specific race if its in a game mode that doesn't impact others? Consider that people already feel forced to play specific professions for specific content. Or use specific builds. Or even feel forced to play specific content. So what is the actual cost-benefit of compelling players to play specific races in open world gameplay? I'm sure one could point to imbalance for certain events but even then, who actually cares? No one can tell you what you NEED to play in open world nor can you be pressured.

>

 

The fact that current balance is not ideal or that true balance in general might be unachievable is no good argument to intentionally add even more unbalance and parts to the equation.

 

Especially when those parts are part of a feature which was intentionally designed to not conflict in the first place.

 

Now with split skills one could argue that racial skills could be made more interesting for open world pve as to not affect group content, Spvp or WvW. Not sure Arenanet has the will to devote man power to such a task when the net result will automatically be something which to some extent will create unhappy players.

 

Keeping the status quo is what every body signed on to and can accept or disapprove of, it remains the status quo though.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > The problem with racials is that they are race exclusive and depending on balance ppl could be feel forced to play some specific race, and limiting them only to ow would be a waste imho.

>

> Not discounting your point, but for discussion purposes, I'd like to argue it.

>

> Is it really a bad thing to "feel forced" to play a specific race if its in a game mode that doesn't impact others? Consider that people already feel forced to play specific professions for specific content. Or use specific builds. Or even feel forced to play specific content. So what is the actual cost-benefit of compelling players to play specific races in open world gameplay? I'm sure one could point to imbalance for certain events but even then, who actually cares? No one can tell you what you NEED to play in open world nor can you be pressured.

>

 

The fact that current balance is not ideal or that true balance in general might be unachievable is no good argument to intentionally add even more unbalance and parts to the equation.

 

Especially when those parts are part of a feature which was intentionally designed to not conflict in the first place.

 

Now with split skills one could argue that racial skills could be made more interesting for open world pve as to not affect group content, Spvp or WvW. Not sure Arenanet has the will to devote man power to such a task when the net result will automatically be something which to some extent will create unhappy players.

 

Keeping the status quo is what every body signed on to and can accept or disapprove of, it remains the status quo though.

[lokh.2695]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" I knew that I could count on you! Kudos!!

 

Anet should just simply send checks his/her way at this point ;)

[Tekoneiric.6817]

I was thinking about this recently. Racial skills need their own skill specialization for the player to train and it needs to figure into the build of the character like any of the core profession specifications. That way the player could choose to build up the racial skills or focus on other the character's profession skills instead.

 

One specialization skill I would like to see for the Norn is for them to automatically increase in size and fury while in combat. Charr could have a feline reflex skill that boosts their agility.

[Leo G.4501]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > The problem with racials is that they are race exclusive and depending on balance ppl could be feel forced to play some specific race, and limiting them only to ow would be a waste imho.

> >

> > Not discounting your point, but for discussion purposes, I'd like to argue it.

> >

> > Is it really a bad thing to "feel forced" to play a specific race if its in a game mode that doesn't impact others? Consider that people already feel forced to play specific professions for specific content. Or use specific builds. Or even feel forced to play specific content. So what is the actual cost-benefit of compelling players to play specific races in open world gameplay? I'm sure one could point to imbalance for certain events but even then, who actually cares? No one can tell you what you NEED to play in open world nor can you be pressured.

> >

>

> The fact that current balance is not ideal or that true balance in general might be unachievable is no good argument to intentionally add even more unbalance and parts to the equation.

>

 

Why is it not a good argument?

 

You can say it is but then ignore the discussion point of what I presented, to which then why even bother replying to my point if you're just going to ignore what I'm asking? I'll ask you again though: Who would care? Who would actually care that you might feel slighted that your Asura warrior might not be as effective in a certain open world event than a Sylvari warrior? And further still, who shoulders the cost of that concern?

 

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> Especially when those parts are part of a feature which was intentionally designed to not conflict in the first place.

>

 

To this, I ask you to answer the question in my second paragraph.

 

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> Not sure Arenanet has the will to devote man power to such a task when the net result will automatically be something which to some extent will create unhappy players.

>

 

Why would you automatically assume that? And while I can understand the position of a realist in discussions like these, it's rather beside the point, IMO, to dwell on trivialities when I believe the discussion could focus on what could be done vs what won't.

 

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> Keeping the status quo is what every body signed on to and can accept or disapprove of, it remains the status quo though.

 

Well, I liked my phantasm Mesmer and my Spirit Weapons Armory Guardian. Where's the status quo for them?

 

[Ashantara.8731]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> The problem with racials is that they are race exclusive and depending on balance

 

Just block them for use in PvP, WvW, and raids. Problem solved.

 

There really is no need to make them so bad that _no one_ wants to use them, even in open world PvE.

[Leo G.4501]

> @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > The problem with racials is that they are race exclusive and depending on balance

>

> Just block them for use in PvP, WvW, and raids. Problem solved.

>

> There really is no need to make them so bad that _no one_ wants to use them, even in open world PvE.

 

They are already blocked in PvP (or maybe it's just ranked?) but I could see some people complaining about not being able to use them in WvW. I honestly don't care about raids so yeah, block them in raids (I doubt anyone would complain). I figure, just have a split between WvW/Dungeon/Fractal and Open World for racial skills.

 

I think a lot of people would argue that it'd be too difficult to balance and blahblahblah, but I feel they should be focused on making the racial skills cool and fun. For starters, Norn transformations and Asura Golems need to be toggles.