Stealth MUST change for dead eye in wvw

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Safandula.8723" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Assassin signet is not the problem,permastealth is. Stop trying to blame other mechanics

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ^this...

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blaming Assassins signet is like when people complained about torch for mirage.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It wont fix the real issue, and instead nerfs every other build but the one that is a problem.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think we can all agree stealth on dodge might be a little over bearing given that fact you can MalBS for 20k+ on an opener. repeatedly.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So fix the stealth issue, and no other build needs to be caught in the crossfire.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > aside from the fact that out there are daredevils doing the exact same because of that signet.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > sure you can do something about stealth on dodge, but if you want to gank like in that video people will still do it. if needed as daredevil that also will use endurance to stealth and in a group they might even do it as core.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh sure DD can do the same thing in one burst. DD couldn't immediately re-enter stealth and gank a second or third person. The gank of thief hasn't changed, and wasn't a huge problem until DE came out.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > So lets address the issue that arouse from PoF

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Not nerf everything around PoF and hope it fixes the problem.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > what prevents that DD from entering stealth? that 3s reveal?

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > After a backstab?

> > > > > > > > > > > Yes- The fact that DD doesn't have Shadow Meld to re-enter stealth immediately after a gank.

> > > > > > > > > > > So if you BS a person with DD you have a window where you can be targeted, CC'd, or further revealed.

> > > > > > > > > > > DE doesn't truly have that window.

> > > > > > > > > > > Interesting thing as well like I said. The complaints for DD backstab was not nearly as bad as DE.

> > > > > > > > > > > So why do you think that is?

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Also last I played DD, you have to build full glass to achieve this damage, and you had little to no room for error.

> > > > > > > > > > > Unlike DE , you didn't have the luxury of taking the SA line for perma stealth shinanigans AND high damage

> > > > > > > > > > > Has that changed all of a sudden?

> > > > > > > > > > > And what build?

> > > > > > > > > > > And why aren't people running that instead?

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Edit: and please note I said Immediately after-

> > > > > > > > > > > As in MalBS to Meld.

> > > > > > > > > > > You don't have a 3second window or any window with DE before they re-enter stealth because they can take the revealed debuff and completely ignore it if they choose too.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > so its shadowmeld causing the difference?

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > That is a really good question, I think Shadow Meld is part of the problem. I would love to test a theory I have that MalBS may be adding more damage values than what it is supposed to, as in it's getting an extra 10% when it shouldn't, but I would have to test that.

> > > > > > > > the first adds more because of the minor trait. so basically you get dmg for marking as such and damage specifically on that MalBS.

> > > > > > > > > > assassins signet just got changed shortly before PoF, since then any thief can do such high bursts thats why there havent been more complains before as assassins signet was different.

> > > > > > > > > The CD got changed yes, the value of what it buffs did not. So while the frequency of the damage increased. It did not changed the value IIRC.

> > > > > > > > it changed the value.

> > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Assassin%27s_Signet/history

> > > > > > > > look at what it was before august 2017

> > > > > > > > > > but my point was just that such instant kills like in the video are not deadeye exclusive and you wont change anything about them if you only change DE stealth access. but ofc you can change deadeye stealth access, that wont change one bit about those complains tho.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I think people are more upset that they lose the window to attack. Again, The complaints were their for thief. I wont disagree with that. DE however has magnified it.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > that is indeed also a complaint, but a different one than we can see in the above video.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > also the 2nd one attacking the necro didnt even take half the necros life while building malice to m7, then the other finished it with several more shots that you can hear.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Hmmm you're right about the signet. I thought when they changed it from % based to straight power that was a nerf to the signets overall damage potential.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > was a huge buff as 540 power is usually more than 15% and 5s dealing more damage on every hit is obviously better than just doing it on 5 hits.

> > > > > > a daredevil really does compareable damage to the 0/1 malice backstabs of a deadeye, if you just replace deadeye line with daredevil.

> > > > > > i mean deadeye backstabs are very strong but i would rather complain about the build up backstabs than the initial ones as malice only decays when mark runs out or a backstab lands. so you can build it up and then come with a much greater hit any time you want.

> > > > >

> > > > > I run Assassin signet/agility signet all the time when using DD and I can tell u that popping it and doing all attacks save for backstab do not come close to one shorting,sword still barely chips away at the opponents hp and bound/vault spam takes a lot of spams to down someone solely by themselves. If the opponent stands there and takes it there either new or afk lol. kitten signet isn’t some super signet like ur trying to make it out to be. U nerf the signet and all the thief attack damages are nurfed not just backstab. Stealth back stab nurf would be suitable

> > > >

> > > > do you really think core/DD would be less affected by a backstab nerf than an assassins signet nerf? ok.. i dont mind, if you prefer that. but i am certain a very huge chunk of the thief community will disagree here.

> > > > also there is an option to CHANGE it. meaning give it another active effect not just: more damage. it doesnt have to be an overall nerf.

> > > Any damage loss will hurt core/DD so any change that reduces damage of assassin damage boost would be a huge loss. Core especially is already lost too much damage,u think thief core players and DD would be ok losing more so u can keep ur perma stealth,yeah lol. There are already so many complaints about core/DD damage nurfs and u think losing more damage and gaining what? More utility is better?core already hits like kitten these days lol name any s/d players that think they do tonnes of damage compared to their hp/sustain. Dagger damage was reduced also. Why not nurf everything but perma stealth and backstab so DE is the only viable spec with only 2 cheesy options of attack lol that be fun. And I’m sure there’s a lot of players that don’t rely on backstab, I mained thief for2.5 yrs and rarely set out to Preform them as part of a regular playstyle

> > >

> >

> > you dont understand a bit, do you?

> > first of all i was running with power and permastealth before PoF as daredevil aswell, so yeah if you cut DE too much i might switch to DD to play with stealth again i dont mind.

> > second. the topic of this thread is the oneshot out of nowhere. i barely said that this is not DE exclusive and a DD is easily able to do the same. i am not asking for anything. i am just pointing out that if you want to get rid of such backstabs, you need to change something about the core thief, just changing something on DE wont fix that problem.

> > i know you would rather want to see DE nerfed than DD. but thats completly irrelevant right now. either you are oke with such backstabs or not. if your not oke with them -> change core thief.

>

>

>

> I think u also don't understand.

> Problems with de are not only Backstab out of nowhere, but Backstab on steroids, and nuts stealth access by 1 button press, and kitten long periods of time it can stay in. Add dodge food to this equation and u will break any logic laws.

> Not sure if all of u guys defending DE are trolling or u rly think ur right

 

again. i merely said that changing anything about DE wont prevent the situation in the OP as that is not DE exclusive, that doesnt mean that you cant have other issues with DE.

[alchemyst.2165]

@OP this may have already been posted but what armor were you running?

 

I run a mix of mara and some soldiers for ~2300 armor and have never really had a problem being one shot in WvW, and I play thief as well. (I also usually have on instant reflexes from acro, so that is also a big help)

 

I can get behind the "no-tell" aspect of the malicious backstab build, but I've literally never had a problem with deadeye specs in WvW other than them being a minor annoyance. Permastealth is annoying, but eh. If they're stealthed they're not dealing damage to me.

 

This also isn't me coming at the OP in any way, I'm just sharing my experience and hopefully it can help.

 

Edit: I'm reading and seeing a lot of people saying stealth should be OOC only. This wouldn't really fix people's frustrations; people would still get ganked, just like in other games, and thief would require an entire rework, which I doubt would happen. Stealthing in this game is unique and changing it would require too much on Anet's part.

 

I think a lot of people's grievances are mainly just coming from being ganked, which happens in every MMO.

[DeceiverX.8361]

Sorry to say OP but you're a little late to the party. I posted day 1 about this when they reworked DE to have Malicious attacks and retained its stealth-camping potential. "All hail D/P." The interactions are busted. DE is fundamentally broken. But the permastealth-camping OHKO sniper is what the community at at large insisted would be fun to play, and ANet couldn't make out the problem.

 

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> I've been saying it before and I'll say it again.

> No attacks from stealth should do high damage, and this applies to all classes.

> It allows for very little reaction time.

> Ways to fix this would be to reduce damage from stealth by 30% or make it so that attacks from stealth cannot crit.

 

I'm going to have to disagree just because CnD -> Stab is extremely predictable and I can consistently make most people running OH dagger eat dirt whenever CnD is used. It's not stealth attacks that are the issue. The problem is OOC stealth and its sustained uptime.

 

Offhand pistol is a problem and always has been because of this. SA breaks OOC stealth and literally always has, which was why they nerfed it the first time. ANet nerfed the signet build on the top end but also buffed baseline 100-0 potential by making Assassin's Signet and various traits provide static +power instead of damage modifiers which only provide big boosts when many are combined, requiring a solid devestment away from trait lines like SA which only provide defensive stats. Further, DE undoes all the nerfs done to SA's offensive potential (permanent 15 might in the old days) by providing tons of free damage via MBS and its damage-applying traits. The thief has just been historically weak enough and its damage has historically required a much more massive investment with some much more substantive drawbacks - like being Revealed after that initial strike and traditionally having to burn multiple utility skills to achieve that damage while having no escape potential - that nobody ever noticed or cared.

 

My D/D signet build has not changed at all in basically six years of playing. I literally used to be able to do even more damage than what the OP took by just removing OH dagger and equipping a pistol instead while opting for three offensive traitlines thanks to older iterations of Assassin's Signet. To the point multiple people on these very forums have screenshotted my damage and accused me of hacking.

 

Fact of the matter is that stealth access that does not require successful attacks nor being in melee range is overpowered, and the game has moved to a very powercreeped state where a lot of the investment in raw damage is unnecessary. Just look at soulbeast. Smokescale + GS paired with Sirmisher's shot provides a solid amount of stealth and absolutely tremendous burst damage (way more than backstab DE), and is extremely oppressive to play against and in the case of the OP would have resulted in no different of an outcome when it can run double signet of stone and a pet like Arctic Wolf with another 4s damage immunity effect.

 

And then on top of this, you have issues like I brought up in my thread about on-dodge food. DE gets stealth on dodge and can maintain close to 60% stealth uptime by just equipping a rifle and dodge rolling. These kinds of interactions BREAK the game. And yet, looking at my thread, people are still insisting the food is fine.

 

High damage is fine. There's a reason that despite being the best burst/DPS kit, D/D thief is garbage in the PvP modes, and it's because it has substantial counterplay. Damage that's incredibly safe without consequence is a major problem. And that's what SA+DE on conjunction with kits like D/P and rifle, along with specs like glass cannon soulbeast with 12s of immuninties, mirage with one of the highest dodge uptimes in the game and the ability to retroactively negate being punished while simultaneously dealing damage thanks to Mirage Cloak all provide.

 

Just good luck convincing most people that they should require an ounce of skill to play the game. You should be familiar with this in respects to reaper when people were bitching and whining about how bad it was, and then you looked into the matchups, consulted some experts (like how you did with me into thief) and bam, a few years later you're top 50 PvP and well-esteemed before it got reworked. It's sad but it's true: People just want free wins most of the time, and the ideas proposing fair and fun gameplay usually get tossed to the wayside because they don't fit peoples' power-fantasies.

[Dangus.6572]

Anet - Fix only DE stealth. DO NOT touch DD and Core Thieves.

[Geiir.7603]

First of all: that was 2 Deadeyes trolling you, so no wonder you lost the 1v2.

 

Secondly: in a straight up duel you should beat them 100% of the time due to the insane amounts of evades you got. This I know from playing S/D myself in WvW for the last year and been stomping deadeyes. They only have one shot, after that you have the upper hand and can expect the burst and evade it accordingly (or reflect it all together).

 

Third: The problem is malicious backstab. Combined with other damage modifiers and power signet it is too much damage from one skill. When I’m running that 1 shot build I rarely hit below 18k backstabs.

 

The fix: Remove one charge from the Shadow Meld and double the cool down. Let it be a one time per fight thing with a longer cool down instead of the spammable version we have now.

 

Edit: forgot to mention that this is only possible in WvW. In sPvP Deadeyes have to rely on their rifle to be of any use :p

[Safandula.8723]

> @"Geiir.7603" said:

> First of all: that was 2 Deadeyes trolling you, so no wonder you lost the 1v2.

>

> Secondly: in a straight up duel you should beat them 100% of the time due to the insane amounts of evades you got. This I know from playing S/D myself in WvW for the last year and been stomping deadeyes. They only have one shot, after that you have the upper hand and can expect the burst and evade it accordingly (or reflect it all together).

>

> Third: The problem is malicious backstab. Combined with other damage modifiers and power signet it is too much damage from one skill. When I’m running that 1 shot build I rarely hit below 18k backstabs.

>

> The fix: Remove one charge from the Shadow Meld and double the cool down. Let it be a one time per fight thing with a longer cool down instead of the spammable version we have now.

>

> Edit: forgot to mention that this is only possible in WvW. In sPvP Deadeyes have to rely on their rifle to be of any use :p

 

After 1 failed shot, deadeyes can completely reset and stalk u until u lose focus and fuck u up finally

[LaFurion.3167]

Sorry guys I was banned for 3 days for posting profanities in my post zzzz.

 

But yeah at the end of the day the permanent the stealth aspect is what is unfun. I shouldn't have to permanently have to run durability runes or whatever for the fear of one elite spec EXISTING on the same map as me; that's ridiculous.

 

If they have permastealth they should have way less damage on an ability with literally zero tell.

[kash.9213]

> @"LaFurion.3167" said:

> Sorry guys I was banned for 3 days for posting profanities in my post zzzz.

>

> But yeah at the end of the day the permanent the stealth aspect is what is unfun. I shouldn't have to permanently have to run durability runes or whatever for the fear of one elite spec EXISTING on the same map as me; that's ridiculous.

>

> If they have permastealth they should have way less damage on an ability with literally zero tell.

 

Everyone else has to take their matchup and map activity into account when they consider their stats and build. Don't run durability runes if you don't like the feel of your build when you use them.

 

It's not just that ability alone hitting you suddenly.

 

I'm not arguing for or against anything.

[LaFurion.3167]

> @"kash.9213" said:

> > @"LaFurion.3167" said:

> > Sorry guys I was banned for 3 days for posting profanities in my post zzzz.

> >

> > But yeah at the end of the day the permanent the stealth aspect is what is unfun. I shouldn't have to permanently have to run durability runes or whatever for the fear of one elite spec EXISTING on the same map as me; that's ridiculous.

> >

> > If they have permastealth they should have way less damage on an ability with literally zero tell.

>

> Everyone else has to take their matchup and map activity into account when they consider their stats and build. Don't run durability runes if you don't like the feel of your build when you use them.

>

> It's not just that ability alone hitting you suddenly.

>

> I'm not arguing for or against anything.

 

Did you see the video though? Malicious back stab literally deleted me. It either one shot me or did 95%+ of my damage in one hit. Sure you can argue that "oh you should have paid attention to the people standing in your spawn as an indicator of something going on" but that was only for spawn camping. Imagine out on the map when there is no visualization of dead eye being anywhere just boom dead.

 

 

It's simply not fun. It really isn't. And if it continues people will quit the game over it. Even I logged off for that day and was like an screw this I ain't dealing with this stupid shit.

[kash.9213]

> @"LaFurion.3167" said:

> > @"kash.9213" said:

> > > @"LaFurion.3167" said:

> > > Sorry guys I was banned for 3 days for posting profanities in my post zzzz.

> > >

> > > But yeah at the end of the day the permanent the stealth aspect is what is unfun. I shouldn't have to permanently have to run durability runes or whatever for the fear of one elite spec EXISTING on the same map as me; that's ridiculous.

> > >

> > > If they have permastealth they should have way less damage on an ability with literally zero tell.

> >

> > Everyone else has to take their matchup and map activity into account when they consider their stats and build. Don't run durability runes if you don't like the feel of your build when you use them.

> >

> > It's not just that ability alone hitting you suddenly.

> >

> > I'm not arguing for or against anything.

>

> Did you see the video though? Malicious back stab literally deleted me. It either one shot me or did 95%+ of my damage in one hit. Sure you can argue that "oh you should have paid attention to the people standing in your spawn as an indicator of something going on" but that was only for spawn camping. Imagine out on the map when there is no visualization of dead eye being anywhere just boom dead.

>

>

> It's simply not fun. It really isn't. And if it continues people will quit the game over it. Even I logged off for that day and was like an screw this I ain't dealing with this stupid kitten.

 

You should have been easily one shot but you were brought down to 136 and ticked out the rest of the way quickly. You don't even need Durability runes, just Marauders with some valk and some stat padding food maybe and even though you just walked out slowly you'd be able to survive that and bounce. Regardless, 16k has never been a lot and always feel eyes on you, your utility bar says you've built for it, that could have been nice bait but it doesn't look like you're packing much counter or cc in general. Those two know who they're going to jump, even the way you move or skills you use to navigate coming out of spawn either says you're a good catch or they shouldn't chance messing with you or it's a waste of time. None of that looked career ending dude, it happens.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @"LaFurion.3167" said:

> > @"kash.9213" said:

> > > @"LaFurion.3167" said:

> > > Sorry guys I was banned for 3 days for posting profanities in my post zzzz.

> > >

> > > But yeah at the end of the day the permanent the stealth aspect is what is unfun. I shouldn't have to permanently have to run durability runes or whatever for the fear of one elite spec EXISTING on the same map as me; that's ridiculous.

> > >

> > > If they have permastealth they should have way less damage on an ability with literally zero tell.

> >

> > Everyone else has to take their matchup and map activity into account when they consider their stats and build. Don't run durability runes if you don't like the feel of your build when you use them.

> >

> > It's not just that ability alone hitting you suddenly.

> >

> > I'm not arguing for or against anything.

>

> Did you see the video though? Malicious back stab literally deleted me. It either one shot me or did 95%+ of my damage in one hit. Sure you can argue that "oh you should have paid attention to the people standing in your spawn as an indicator of something going on" but that was only for spawn camping. Imagine out on the map when there is no visualization of dead eye being anywhere just boom dead.

>

>

> It's simply not fun. It really isn't. And if it continues people will quit the game over it. Even I logged off for that day and was like an screw this I ain't dealing with this stupid kitten.

 

Malicious Backstab was never procked. You were not marked once in the video. You were simply Back stabbed with an Assassin's Signet. Which Anet buffed to try and return Thief's single target damage. But few people use it outside of these sorts of builds.

 

Also, I doubt they were seriously in stealth the entire time. You can see nearly everything a thief does when they try to stack stealth. The only one you can't is the Elite Skill, and even then that thing is on a cooler before the stealth is up. One of the thieves has dual daggers, so he can't use the Dagger Pistol's method. Which means he'd need to use Blinding Powder (which would be hard to spot), Or Shadow Refuge, which you can see as a big ass marker for a while, or Shadow Gust which is another one you can see. More than likely they were hiding below the cliffs. Which thief can climb very quickly.

 

Anyways, this is what happens when you build glassy. A thief - doesn't matter if deadeye, core, or daredevil, will wreck you before you can act.

 

But anyways. Welcome to fighting thieves. This is how a thief fights. Hit hard, fast, and be dirty. Because with all the shit ANET did to us, being up front about anything is a sure fire way to get killed.

[Caedmon.6798]

So you got beat by 2 players who are better than you are,despite the excuses you make.You were probably running back to your blob to spamm random aoe's around while these guys are roaming and actually know how to play without the backup of 48 player behind em.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> Also, I doubt they were seriously in stealth the entire time. You can see nearly everything a thief does when they try to stack stealth. The only one you can't is the Elite Skill, and even then that thing is on a cooler before the stealth is up. One of the thieves has dual daggers, so he can't use the Dagger Pistol's method. Which means he'd need to use Blinding Powder (which would be hard to spot), Or Shadow Refuge, which you can see as a big kitten marker for a while, or Shadow Gust which is another one you can see. More than likely they were hiding below the cliffs. Which thief can climb very quickly.

 

you can see the elites red animation. you cannot see silent scope, you cannot see hidden thief when not cast on you, you cannot see stolen skills. you can use stolen skills while obstructed/out of range to get the stealth without hitting, therefor not getting revealed. especially when in combat to use energy sigil and having a mob by you can permastealth without visual indicator, doesnt mean that those 2 were doing it tho. (actually its pretty unlikely they were doing it as there was nobody around specifically looking for signs)

[LaFurion.3167]

> @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> So you got beat by 2 players who are better than you are,despite the excuses you make.You were probably running back to your blob to spamm random aoe's around while these guys are roaming and actually know how to play without the backup of 48 player behind em.

 

It's funny you say this because I never blob. I don't ever join tags even. I only roam and look for small fights or outnumbered fights.

 

You can defend it all you want mr dead eye main but 18k+ from stealth with 0 tell is not okay.

[Ronin.7381]

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> The easy fix is to not allow stealth while in combat, the way it should have been done in the first place. Sure stealth is fine for the first surprise hit, but after you're in combat.. sorry buddy, it's do or die, no stealthy and runny for you.

 

I grew up with perma hide Rogues and my forever favorite concept, the Stalker from City of Heroes. Unfortunately, there's something so off about Guild Wars 2's combat system with the Thief particularly that makes it difficult to assess. Elder Scrolls online did this perfectly, crouch and you wont be seen unless they're close and behind you (very AC2-like). But there's a lot ESO got right with some things, even the crafting there is far more intuitive and rewarding. So I'm at a loss of ideas on how to better them. All I can say is, I enjoy my deadeye and more so now that I've gotten used to the change of malice and judgment.

[Safandula.8723]

Do u guys rly say, that being 1 shouted while having 15-16k is an l2p issue, and we should have more vit or toughness?

I agree it's not much, but it's hard to read comments, stating that 15k hits out of nowhere are OK lol.

[saerni.2584]

With multiple thieves the best strategy is to just leave spawn if you aren’t tanky enough to survive a coordinated hit.

 

Even if the two only manage an 8k burst they can gank you if there are two of them and you have less than 16k HP. Fighting 2v1 you need to be more skillful to win in general.

 

If you want to fight. You need HP, toughness and some form of targeted high damage channel. Like Axe 2 or a Rapid Fire or Unload. You then need to bait the attackers and be ready to counter pressure. One you down one stay mobile and keep up the pressure. Holo could also be used here for AoE reveal and good cc/AoE damage.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"LaFurion.3167" said:

> > @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > So you got beat by 2 players who are better than you are,despite the excuses you make.You were probably running back to your blob to spamm random aoe's around while these guys are roaming and actually know how to play without the backup of 48 player behind em.

>

> It's funny you say this because I never blob. I don't ever join tags even. I only roam and look for small fights or outnumbered fights.

>

> You can defend it all you want mr dead eye main but 18k+ from stealth with 0 tell is not okay.

 

Literally every class that can stealth can hit for 18k with no tell, and most classes that can't stealth could hit for 18k and have a friendly thief stealthing them.

 

Yeah, it's broken, but there's so many things in the game that are broken now I don't think they can go back to the old levels of power and make builds like cele nades engi work again even if they wanted to.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > Also, I doubt they were seriously in stealth the entire time. You can see nearly everything a thief does when they try to stack stealth. The only one you can't is the Elite Skill, and even then that thing is on a cooler before the stealth is up. One of the thieves has dual daggers, so he can't use the Dagger Pistol's method. Which means he'd need to use Blinding Powder (which would be hard to spot), Or Shadow Refuge, which you can see as a big kitten marker for a while, or Shadow Gust which is another one you can see. More than likely they were hiding below the cliffs. Which thief can climb very quickly.

>

> you can see the elites red animation. you cannot see silent scope, you cannot see hidden thief when not cast on you, you cannot see stolen skills. you can use stolen skills while obstructed/out of range to get the stealth without hitting, therefor not getting revealed. especially when in combat to use energy sigil and having a mob by you can permastealth without visual indicator, doesnt mean that those 2 were doing it tho. (actually its pretty unlikely they were doing it as there was nobody around specifically looking for signs)

 

Actually you can see stolen skills. They all place a condition on you :P. But... most folks don't really pay attention to their bars. But you're right, you can't see a visible animation for it.

[Rysdude.3824]

Gosh..I think getting ganked like this would discourage many people. How could this company allow this kind of gameplay? On what level is this considere even the least bit okay?

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Rysdude.3824" said:

> Gosh..I think getting ganked like this would discourage many people. How could this company allow this kind of gameplay? On what level is this considere even the least bit okay?

Discourage how? We're not seeing that ingame. Players zerg - in which case thieves are of no concern to them. Or they roam, in which case they either *are* the thieves, they run a class/build that at the very least can survive and kill the thief with a +1 or they run a class/build that can fight and win.

 

Anyone who enters WvW on a glass roamer build and assume he will never meet any thief or roamer with equal damage is going to have a bad day. Those that roam should know what they are doing.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > Also, I doubt they were seriously in stealth the entire time. You can see nearly everything a thief does when they try to stack stealth. The only one you can't is the Elite Skill, and even then that thing is on a cooler before the stealth is up. One of the thieves has dual daggers, so he can't use the Dagger Pistol's method. Which means he'd need to use Blinding Powder (which would be hard to spot), Or Shadow Refuge, which you can see as a big kitten marker for a while, or Shadow Gust which is another one you can see. More than likely they were hiding below the cliffs. Which thief can climb very quickly.

> >

> > you can see the elites red animation. you cannot see silent scope, you cannot see hidden thief when not cast on you, you cannot see stolen skills. you can use stolen skills while obstructed/out of range to get the stealth without hitting, therefor not getting revealed. especially when in combat to use energy sigil and having a mob by you can permastealth without visual indicator, doesnt mean that those 2 were doing it tho. (actually its pretty unlikely they were doing it as there was nobody around specifically looking for signs)

>

> Actually you can see stolen skills. They all place a condition on you :P. But... most folks don't really pay attention to their bars. But you're right, you can't see a visible animation for it.

 

uhm. no you cant see them.

see if i use a stolen skill while i already am in stealth and want to retain stealth, then i will make sure my target is obstructed or not targeted and out of range. then it wont hit the target and wont inflict a condition, but it will grant stealth. (or use a wall that wont get damage/condition anyway, you can also 'hit' the hit box of a wall to gain malice towards it without getting visible)

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @"Rysdude.3824" said:

> Gosh..I think getting ganked like this would discourage many people. How could this company allow this kind of gameplay? On what level is this considere even the least bit okay?

 

You must think that a thief, or any rogue class is supposed to fight fair. If so, and you some how think Thief is unfair, you should have seen what the Rogue in WoW did in the early days.

 

But as many people mentioned, this was the players own fault, twice over.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > Also, I doubt they were seriously in stealth the entire time. You can see nearly everything a thief does when they try to stack stealth. The only one you can't is the Elite Skill, and even then that thing is on a cooler before the stealth is up. One of the thieves has dual daggers, so he can't use the Dagger Pistol's method. Which means he'd need to use Blinding Powder (which would be hard to spot), Or Shadow Refuge, which you can see as a big kitten marker for a while, or Shadow Gust which is another one you can see. More than likely they were hiding below the cliffs. Which thief can climb very quickly.

> > >

> > > you can see the elites red animation. you cannot see silent scope, you cannot see hidden thief when not cast on you, you cannot see stolen skills. you can use stolen skills while obstructed/out of range to get the stealth without hitting, therefor not getting revealed. especially when in combat to use energy sigil and having a mob by you can permastealth without visual indicator, doesnt mean that those 2 were doing it tho. (actually its pretty unlikely they were doing it as there was nobody around specifically looking for signs)

> >

> > Actually you can see stolen skills. They all place a condition on you :P. But... most folks don't really pay attention to their bars. But you're right, you can't see a visible animation for it.

>

> uhm. no you cant see them.

> see if i use a stolen skill while i already am in stealth and want to retain stealth, then i will make sure my target is obstructed or not targeted and out of range. then it wont hit the target and wont inflict a condition, but it will grant stealth. (or use a wall that wont get damage/condition anyway, you can also 'hit' the hit box of a wall to gain malice towards it without getting visible)

 

Jeeze man, it was a small joke. Though I hadn't actually thought about obstructing the player's view for the stealth alone.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > > Also, I doubt they were seriously in stealth the entire time. You can see nearly everything a thief does when they try to stack stealth. The only one you can't is the Elite Skill, and even then that thing is on a cooler before the stealth is up. One of the thieves has dual daggers, so he can't use the Dagger Pistol's method. Which means he'd need to use Blinding Powder (which would be hard to spot), Or Shadow Refuge, which you can see as a big kitten marker for a while, or Shadow Gust which is another one you can see. More than likely they were hiding below the cliffs. Which thief can climb very quickly.

> > > >

> > > > you can see the elites red animation. you cannot see silent scope, you cannot see hidden thief when not cast on you, you cannot see stolen skills. you can use stolen skills while obstructed/out of range to get the stealth without hitting, therefor not getting revealed. especially when in combat to use energy sigil and having a mob by you can permastealth without visual indicator, doesnt mean that those 2 were doing it tho. (actually its pretty unlikely they were doing it as there was nobody around specifically looking for signs)

> > >

> > > Actually you can see stolen skills. They all place a condition on you :P. But... most folks don't really pay attention to their bars. But you're right, you can't see a visible animation for it.

> >

> > uhm. no you cant see them.

> > see if i use a stolen skill while i already am in stealth and want to retain stealth, then i will make sure my target is obstructed or not targeted and out of range. then it wont hit the target and wont inflict a condition, but it will grant stealth. (or use a wall that wont get damage/condition anyway, you can also 'hit' the hit box of a wall to gain malice towards it without getting visible)

>

> Jeeze man, it was a small joke.

i know, but there is a lot more people reading than contributing in the forums so always good to use an opportunity to explain how to (ab)use the games mechanics :3