Nimon.7840 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 17-19k one hit out of stealth shouldn't be possible. I ran ele at weekend, with some toughness, some health. (2,3k armor, 16k health), because I thought, yeah, let's play a class that is good in 1v1. Never played much ele before except in raids sometimes or some heal ele. But I think it's a fun 1v1 build, that doesn't let me auto loose, just because I play a certain class ( necro main) Got malicious backstabbed for 17k several times. Picked my thief up. I have Maybe 15hours of effective thief playtime. I bought some gear, sword/ pistol, shortbow, mix of berserkers and Valkyrie gear. I went out with my daredevil and killed 3 people in a row. Then got malicious backstabbed again for instant down. Thief is still way too overtuned right now. When even I can easily kill people with a bad build. Speaking about overtuned: mesmer or better to say mirage. Can play Condi or power with insane spikes. And against Condi you dodge like all heavy condition applying skills, take a lot of Condi cleanses and still you loose, because illusions shit their condis on you. And if they drop in health they can just run away outright and then try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rng.1024 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 You could have won the second encounter by simply slotting the acro trait that gives evade and using dagger storm when it procs. Two burst classes are supposed to hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowcat.2680 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Pretty sure I've encountered this pair before. They like to ambush players en route to a keep, running as a pair to be absolutely sure they succeed at their ganks. @"Dawdler.8521" has the right of it that you needed both bait (preferably bait that can survive) and something capable of counter-bursting the deadeyes to make it an actual fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick.8967 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Really the issue is the constant crits. This is what has ruined the balance to a large extent- now most classes can reach almost 100% crit rate or have skills that make the next x skills or x seconds all crits. Whilst that is around, the game just isn't much fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemonSeed.3528 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > Pretty sure I've encountered this pair before. They like to ambush players en route to a keep, running as a pair to be absolutely sure they succeed at their ganks. > > @"Dawdler.8521" has the right of it that you needed both bait (preferably bait that can survive) and something capable of counter-bursting the deadeyes to make it an actual fight. Yeah, that is the beauty of their duo - if one fails the other picks up, but there is also a point where their tactic will fail. They already know their roles so and they seem to be quite fluid with their ganks so I'm sure this is something they've been doing for a while. The thing is with guys like this, they are being constantly fed with free kills because people don't know how to group up and deal with it, and they go in one by one dying, creating fear. As annoying as it may seem, they have managed to stop a bunch of people. I'm in the same matchup and I do know AR got some scary thieves running around - there's one who streams that I also like to watch. In any case, specialised gank groups of any number are gonna be tough fights with whatever class they choose since they will be built for gank purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celsith.2753 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Two thieves burst you, its going to hurt regardless of type. I'm confused why you didn't take any measures whatsoever when you ventured out the second time and knew they were there? And as Mudse said, its not that they were Deadeyes, it's assassin signet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnfall.9573 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > @"LaFurion.3167" said: > > A lot of you seem to think that I am overreacting, and that the situation was manageable. Perhaps this is true; I will try to properly explain my frustration. > > > > It's not that I died in this instance, however frustrating. It's a mixture of things that make the wvw roaming experience, the ONLY role of thief, incredibly unfun for everybody coming up against dead eye "roamers". > > > > Yeah sure, the 2nd time I knew that there were 2 thieves in the area. But there should be a TELL for when they are going to do their one shot attempt. Mesmer at least cant stealth permanently. Deadeyes can. They literally roam around the map permanently invisible. > > > > What if I am roaming around? Does that mean that the first time, I HAVE to die? this is okay? I have zero counter play to the first opener, and the only way to deal with it is to "know that they are somewhere on the map and could one shot me at any given time at any given place"? > > > > > > Its really not fun. > > > > > > No, youre not overreacting much. Keep in mind that people who main this atrocity of a class will defend it, no matter what. Especially in the forums. Stealth has no downsides in wvw. No slower movement, no reduced damage, you can spam it if your class allows it while in combat if youre away from sentries and towers with the watchtower buff. Imagine new players coming to wvw and getting oneshot by this**theyre certainly not gonna stay for long** this is the part i think Anet still do not understand, Here is an article of its impacts and how it has impacted Anet as well. (Anet is spending a lot of money on advertising Guild Wars 2 but it will never have a much greater impact than word of mouth marketing. ) 'Customers might not tell you that they’ve had a bad experience with your business -- but they will tell their friends, family, co-workers and other acquaintances. The effects of poor customer service ripple far beyond the revenue lost with that one person. Customers are the foundation of success for any business, and if customers are not treated right, the business can lose its reason for existence. If you aren’t taking care of your customers, and your business becomes known for poor customer service, expect several things to happen -- and none of them are good news for your business. Customers Leave Rare is the customer who will stick around through repeated experiences with poor service, especially in a competitive market where they can easily take their business elsewhere. When your customer walks, you lose not only that revenue, but also you potentially lose the word-of-mouth of advertising that only a satisfied customer can provide. It takes more effort to attract new customers than it does to retain a valued one, so shedding customers is something no business can afford. New Customers Stay Away Word-of-mouth has two sides to it. Just as new customers seek out businesses based on recommendations from people they know, prospective customers will avoid a business when they’ve heard first-hand accounts of poor customer service. People tend to believe firsthand accounts from their friends and acquaintances more than they believe impersonal sources such as advertising, and they give more weight to negative reports than to positive reports. Prospective customers that might have found their way to your business will instead check out what your competitors offer. Your Reputation Suffers It starts when dissatisfied customers talk to people they know about the poor service they got, and it escalates when they express these feelings online. Not only can tweets, Facebook posts and bad Yelp reviews go viral, but these statements can also last forever, potentially becoming only a Google search away from tarnishing your business reputation. Once a business is known for poor customer service, it’s difficult, if not impossible, to repair the image. The results go beyond loss of customer, because other businesses don’t want to partner or associate with a business that’s sliding downward in customer retention. If you can’t trust a business to take care of its customers, it's even more difficult to trust that business' agreements with its partners. Employees Leave Employees know when something’s not right with the business they work for. If they see repeated instances of poor customer service, they’re likely to start looking for opportunities with other companies. Dealing with dissatisfied customers makes their jobs more difficult and eventually the working environment becomes toxic. A management that doesn’t care about its customers probably doesn’t care about employee well-being, either. The resulting high employee turnover further tarnishes the company’s reputation, and it creates more costs because of the increased need for recruiting, hiring and training of new employees. Revenues and Profit Shrink Poor customer service is bad for your bottom line. The shrinking customer base results in fewer sales, which leads to direct loss of revenue. Add to that the increased costs from employee turnover. A business that tries to salvage its reputation by boosting advertising and public relations efforts will have additional costs added to the mix. If no effort is made to improve service to get those lost customers back, the result will be a downward spiral that could eventually lead to you losing your business.' (By Jan Burch) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > @"LaFurion.3167" said: > > > A lot of you seem to think that I am overreacting, and that the situation was manageable. Perhaps this is true; I will try to properly explain my frustration. > > > > > > It's not that I died in this instance, however frustrating. It's a mixture of things that make the wvw roaming experience, the ONLY role of thief, incredibly unfun for everybody coming up against dead eye "roamers". > > > > > > Yeah sure, the 2nd time I knew that there were 2 thieves in the area. But there should be a TELL for when they are going to do their one shot attempt. Mesmer at least cant stealth permanently. Deadeyes can. They literally roam around the map permanently invisible. > > > > > > What if I am roaming around? Does that mean that the first time, I HAVE to die? this is okay? I have zero counter play to the first opener, and the only way to deal with it is to "know that they are somewhere on the map and could one shot me at any given time at any given place"? > > > > > > > > > Its really not fun. > > > > > > > > > > No, youre not overreacting much. Keep in mind that people who main this atrocity of a class will defend it, no matter what. Especially in the forums. Stealth has no downsides in wvw. No slower movement, no reduced damage, you can spam it if your class allows it while in combat if youre away from sentries and towers with the watchtower buff. Imagine new players coming to wvw and getting oneshot by this**theyre certainly not gonna stay for long** > > this is the part i think Anet still do not understand, Here is an article of its impacts and how it has impacted Anet as well. (Anet is spending a lot of money on advertising Guild Wars 2 but it will never have a much greater impact than word of mouth marketing. ) > > 'Customers might not tell you that they’ve had a bad experience with your business -- but they will tell their friends, family, co-workers and other acquaintances. The effects of poor customer service ripple far beyond the revenue lost with that one person. Customers are the foundation of success for any business, and if customers are not treated right, the business can lose its reason for existence. If you aren’t taking care of your customers, and your business becomes known for poor customer service, expect several things to happen -- and none of them are good news for your business. > > Customers Leave > Rare is the customer who will stick around through repeated experiences with poor service, especially in a competitive market where they can easily take their business elsewhere. When your customer walks, you lose not only that revenue, but also you potentially lose the word-of-mouth of advertising that only a satisfied customer can provide. It takes more effort to attract new customers than it does to retain a valued one, so shedding customers is something no business can afford. > > New Customers Stay Away > Word-of-mouth has two sides to it. Just as new customers seek out businesses based on recommendations from people they know, prospective customers will avoid a business when they’ve heard first-hand accounts of poor customer service. People tend to believe firsthand accounts from their friends and acquaintances more than they believe impersonal sources such as advertising, and they give more weight to negative reports than to positive reports. Prospective customers that might have found their way to your business will instead check out what your competitors offer. > > Your Reputation Suffers > It starts when dissatisfied customers talk to people they know about the poor service they got, and it escalates when they express these feelings online. Not only can tweets, Facebook posts and bad Yelp reviews go viral, but these statements can also last forever, potentially becoming only a Google search away from tarnishing your business reputation. Once a business is known for poor customer service, it’s difficult, if not impossible, to repair the image. The results go beyond loss of customer, because other businesses don’t want to partner or associate with a business that’s sliding downward in customer retention. If you can’t trust a business to take care of its customers, it's even more difficult to trust that business' agreements with its partners. > > Employees Leave > Employees know when something’s not right with the business they work for. If they see repeated instances of poor customer service, they’re likely to start looking for opportunities with other companies. Dealing with dissatisfied customers makes their jobs more difficult and eventually the working environment becomes toxic. A management that doesn’t care about its customers probably doesn’t care about employee well-being, either. The resulting high employee turnover further tarnishes the company’s reputation, and it creates more costs because of the increased need for recruiting, hiring and training of new employees. > > Revenues and Profit Shrink > Poor customer service is bad for your bottom line. The shrinking customer base results in fewer sales, which leads to direct loss of revenue. Add to that the increased costs from employee turnover. A business that tries to salvage its reputation by boosting advertising and public relations efforts will have additional costs added to the mix. If no effort is made to improve service to get those lost customers back, the result will be a downward spiral that could eventually lead to you losing your business.' > > (By Jan Burch) Your quote is... interesting. You feel it is poor customer service to not nerf stealth, where the thief would say it is poor customer service to sell a product and significantly change its function after the fact. They could also note ‘bait and switch’ The use of your quote by Jan comes with a significant caveat that isn’t obvious: you are going to make someone mad. Where is the line of tolerance? That’s what any company will do. And that line will move over their history. Evidently, Anet does not feel that the line has been crossed with thief, despite some people in here being convinced it has. 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Solori.6025 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Simple fix without ruining the other thief builds. Put an icd on the stealth after dodge trait. Or throw exhaustion on it like they do every other dodge trait in the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Yeah let’s change assassin signet so by reigning in De a bit we can further nurf core/DD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Assassin signet is not the problem,permastealth is. Stop trying to blame other mechanics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Having the DE blend into background but be noticeable on movement ie predator would solve the issue,that way perma camo is available to DE and if opponent isn’t paying attention to their surroundings that’s on them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solori.6025 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > Assassin signet is not the problem,permastealth is. Stop trying to blame other mechanics ^this... Blaming Assassins signet is like when people complained about torch for mirage. It wont fix the real issue, and instead nerfs every other build but the one that is a problem. I think we can all agree stealth on dodge might be a little over bearing given that fact you can MalBS for 20k+ on an opener. repeatedly. So fix the stealth issue, and no other build needs to be caught in the crossfire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeyspit.3965 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Before the DE white knights jump in, I'll say this: Proponents say that DE's attacking from stealth have a tell, and so can be dodged/counter play. This video shows otherwise* Proponents say that DE's can only one shot you if they run full DPS/Glass Cannon and therefore die if sneezed on. This video shows otherwise. Not only did they survive a mini scourge bomb, they recovered and took out that scourge, then managed to survive getting hit by the OP. Now look, this attack would never have happened if stealth wasn't in the game. I don't see stealth going anywhere, so maybe what needs to happen is that thieves either lose Stealth Attack, or those stealth attacks take some serious damage nerfs. Attacks from stealth should be an opener, not an opener and finisher in one. * I know that is the argument for DJ, yet still, this video shows the OP couldn't do anything other than having a passive defense like lesser signet of stone to avoid what happened. And yes, I know that this is, like, my opinion man. But if DE were deleted from GW2 today, only a small fraction of the playerbase would be upset. Some players would quit GW2, others would quit thief, while others might go back to S/D or Staff DD, but the vast majority of PvP players would celebrate it. That should be your red flag. When the majority of the players want this spec gone, you can type "L2P" or "git gud" all day long, it still remains a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Disgrace.4275 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 So what is it? Perma stealth de or assassins signet? You don't need perma stealth or de to do 17k back stab with the signet, you don't need de to perma stealth neither... you don't even need to perma stealth, just stack a few combos. Problem is, out side of this cheap play any normal thief build can't really do jack shit to anyone any more in todays wvw due to a lot of added stuff since hot (4stat armours is what kick started a lot of this power creap) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"Solori.6025" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > Assassin signet is not the problem,permastealth is. Stop trying to blame other mechanics > > ^this... > Blaming Assassins signet is like when people complained about torch for mirage. > It wont fix the real issue, and instead nerfs every other build but the one that is a problem. > > I think we can all agree stealth on dodge might be a little over bearing given that fact you can MalBS for 20k+ on an opener. repeatedly. > So fix the stealth issue, and no other build needs to be caught in the crossfire. aside from the fact that out there are daredevils doing the exact same because of that signet. sure you can do something about stealth on dodge, but if you want to gank like in that video people will still do it. if needed as daredevil that also will use endurance to stealth and in a group they might even do it as core. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > And yes, I know that this is, like, my opinion man. But if DE were deleted from GW2 today, only a small fraction of the playerbase would be upset. Some players would quit GW2, others would quit thief, while others might go back to S/D or Staff DD, but the vast majority of PvP players would celebrate it. same can be said about your ranger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > And yes, I know that this is, like, my opinion man. But if DE were deleted from GW2 today, only a small fraction of the playerbase would be upset. Some players would quit GW2, others would quit thief, while others might go back to S/D or Staff DD, but the vast majority of PvP players would celebrate it. > same can be said about your ranger. True of soulbeast prob lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 DD needs assassin signet to somewhat alleviate hitting like ur staff is made of rubber lol if they even slot it in first place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duckota.4769 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Yeah its cheap. No stealth in combat isnt the answer. Just remove stealth on dodge. EZ fix. Sure they can use their heal or elite if they want but idc. As a s/d thief there are a few things you can do. None of which are fun. Sword 2 kills a lot of deadeye's for me. Seems they dont like being immob'ed. Imagine that. Not looking for a real fight lol. Most kneeling deadeyes seem to forget they can dodge while kneeling. So sword 3 into steal is actually okay here I think. Normally I avoid it. Hitting the steal early though is important because you get a stealth out of it as well. Allowing you to disengage a bit if he dodges (lol I cant believe I just typed disengage if he dodges). You also have dagger storm. So I think your 2 auto attacks at the end should have been replaced by a dagger storm since you have 0 way of knowing which direction they turned and it gives you some aoe with good damage to try and catch them nearby. At the same time you can use it to move in a direction you prefer and you can shadow step out of it putting you well out of melee range. This isn't specifically a learn to play issue. Its something anet needs to address, but I believe there are a few things you could do next time that may help you survive and maybe even get the kill. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Sure if u could pop an imaginary invulnerability or somthing so u could stand and auto u’d do tons with staff,especially if u could do it long enough to bypass ur opponent blocks and invulnerability skills. So instead u gotta vault/bound spam cuz 2 hits ur dead,or go dag /pist route Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Would DE players be upset if stealth was like predator style stealth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solori.6025 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > Assassin signet is not the problem,permastealth is. Stop trying to blame other mechanics > > > > ^this... > > Blaming Assassins signet is like when people complained about torch for mirage. > > It wont fix the real issue, and instead nerfs every other build but the one that is a problem. > > > > I think we can all agree stealth on dodge might be a little over bearing given that fact you can MalBS for 20k+ on an opener. repeatedly. > > So fix the stealth issue, and no other build needs to be caught in the crossfire. > > aside from the fact that out there are daredevils doing the exact same because of that signet. > sure you can do something about stealth on dodge, but if you want to gank like in that video people will still do it. if needed as daredevil that also will use endurance to stealth and in a group they might even do it as core. Oh sure, DD can do the same thing in one burst. Not saying it can't but, DD couldn't immediately re-enter stealth and gank a second or third person. The gank of thief hasn't changed, and wasn't a huge problem until DE came out. So lets address the issue that arouse from PoF Not nerf everything around PoF and hope it fixes the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saerni.2584 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > Would DE players be upset if stealth was like predator style stealth? Would thieves care if a core game mechanic was changed to satisfy a vocal minority? Depends on what buffs were introduced to compensate. But seriously, this is not a good idea. Does this break target? Does tab targeting work? Click targeting? Or no targeting so you can only use attacks that don’t need a target? Does this New Stealth adequately reduce damage to compensate for increased damage? There are a ton of things that would need to be rebalanced. It just makes more sense to just give most classes an ability to mark targets (which reveals them after being in stealth for 3 seconds—not the current 2 seconds b/c that short circuits short term stealth applications). That way you can fight against permastealth. As to the raw damage out of stealth you have to remember that WvW is full of towers and sentries and traps to mark enemies. Now they can’t permastealth and you should see them coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"Solori.6025" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > Assassin signet is not the problem,permastealth is. Stop trying to blame other mechanics > > > > > > ^this... > > > Blaming Assassins signet is like when people complained about torch for mirage. > > > It wont fix the real issue, and instead nerfs every other build but the one that is a problem. > > > > > > I think we can all agree stealth on dodge might be a little over bearing given that fact you can MalBS for 20k+ on an opener. repeatedly. > > > So fix the stealth issue, and no other build needs to be caught in the crossfire. > > > > aside from the fact that out there are daredevils doing the exact same because of that signet. > > sure you can do something about stealth on dodge, but if you want to gank like in that video people will still do it. if needed as daredevil that also will use endurance to stealth and in a group they might even do it as core. > > Oh sure DD can do the same thing in one burst. DD couldn't immediately re-enter stealth and gank a second or third person. The gank of thief hasn't changed, and wasn't a huge problem until DE came out. > So lets address the issue that arouse from PoF > Not nerf everything around PoF and hope it fixes the problem. what prevents that DD from entering stealth? that 3s reveal? btw current assassin signet is like that since PoF prepatch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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