Are black lion chests gambling?

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

There are a couple of questions that are implied in the various responses from people (generally, not just in this thread):

* What is gambling?

* Is there a difference between the legal and common meanings of the term?

* Is any form of gambling inherently bad? Or is it only bad in certain circumstances? (which ones?)

* Is gambling fun?

* Is there a social benefit to allowing or disallowing gambling to exist in some or all its forms?

* Are lootboxes gambling in the sense described above?

* Are all lootboxes equivalent in the senses described above?

* Are there some forms of lootbox that no one would accept? Are there types that everyone might accept?

 

I think if we look closely, a lot of people have picked one of those questions and made it the deciding factor for addressing the issue of BL chests in this game, although there's more nuance to the situation. That makes it really difficult to have any sort of discourse on the topic

 

Some people enjoy rolling the dice and some do not. Some don't like the idea that some people enjoy rolling the dice (and some don't want to accept that some don't want dice rolling to exist in any form). That also makes it hard for people to talk about it with each other.

 

 

[Ashen.2907]

Yes and no.

 

Yes you can use keys to gamble for a specific item, but you are also guaranteed to get some yield, and eventually, via statuettes, the thing you want.

 

What you are gambling for is the possibility of getting the item quicker and cheaper than the guaranteed cost of accumulating sufficient statuettes to purchase the item.

[Amaranthe.3578]

> @"Khisanth.2948" said:

> > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > Another loot-box/gambling thread? Really? Please use the forums search feature. This has been argued to death and beyond already. (sigh)

>

> It fits with a certain country lazily dumping the issue under gambling regulations :p

 

Lazily? Why?

Lootboxes ARE gambling and should be regulated as such. You dont let 13 year olds go and waste their birthday money on vegas do you?

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > @"Khisanth.2948" said:

> > > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > > Another loot-box/gambling thread? Really? Please use the forums search feature. This has been argued to death and beyond already. (sigh)

> >

> > It fits with a certain country lazily dumping the issue under gambling regulations :p

>

> Lazily? Why?

> Lootboxes ARE gambling and should be regulated as such. You dont let 13 year olds go and waste their birthday money on vegas do you?

 

No, but then it's the PARENTS who should be doing the regulating. If some 13 year old is blowing $$$ on loot boxes, talk to the parents, not the government.

[yann.1946]

> @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > Are they? You are paying cash to basically roll the dice with a small chance of a "jackspot". How is that different from a slot machine in a casino in principle?

> If they are officially gambling or legally gambling is a very interesting question at the moment. Officially in most countries they are not, but I ascribe that purely to the fact that when these laws were passed this sort of thing either didn't exist yet or was unknown to the lawmakers. That is changing now, particularly in the EU with Belgium and the Netherlands at the forefront. They are already making a point with some games from EA and 2K and some of their stuff has already been forbidden as it has been ruled gambling. This includes cosmetics by the way.

>

> If you take the legal things aside however the black lion chests most certainly use the same principles that gambling does and it does have the ability to push people with more addictive personalities to spend and overspend. Sure you can earn some in game but that's not nearly enough to keep up and get some of those really rare items. Currently there is the Exalted Shoulders item that is a clear example of pushing gambling behavior since it's a random rare drop and it's account bound. That's about as bad as it gets with regards to these chests.

>

> To be honest, the government agencies that regulate gambling in the EU have gotten together and are meeting regularly to come up with some EU wide policies and once they do I think GW2 will have to change some things as well, because it's pretty clear that the BLC's aren't any different from lootboxes. And the fact that you can earn some keys via gameplay is a poor excuse because you'll never be able to generate enough keys to get certain items unless you are extremely lucky.

>

> There are some mitigating factors when it comes to ArenaNet. They're not as bad as many other games but also that doesn't really excuse this. It's a predatory form of revenue generation and it's only because it was under the radar of the governments who simply were unaware of this that it's become normalized. I think it's good that there has been a lot of anger about it since BF2, but all in all you have to wonder at things costing 10-20 bucks per item in a game you pay 60 bucks for. It clearly is overpriced. And I do have understanding for people who simply want to support the game and put extra money into it, but I think RNG items like this are of the devil. I tried BLC's and my conclusion is that yes they are lootboxes and once regulations are in place they will have to change. Sadly it will likely take laws because companies do not have the moral will to self-regulate. And that's where ArenaNet are no different than the rest. They may have convinced themselves that their cash shop is pretty fair but it's just not as bad as some other games.

>

> Personally, I accept that this is what the current status is of things but I find myself increasingly stepping away from games that monetize like this. The new Anthem game that comes out in a few weeks is shaping up to have the same type of issues so I won't buy it if that ends up being the case. And well, I do understand running costs for ArenaNet so a little bit here or there I find acceptable to spend. But I also see the problem for people who have a hard time braking themselves in that. Addictive personalities are something that you get genetically. It's not a choice or a willpower thing. And especially in a teen rated game, I will be happy to see RNG rewards disappearing entirely from anything you can spend real money on. But also things like promotions where certain items are only available for short times and not knowing when they will come back are part of a very nefarious system of money making. It's manipulative and preys on weaknesses that people may have. When ArenaNet staff read this (if indeed they do) they might find my wording harsh or confrontational, but the reality is there. What I say is true, but because it's become common practice, it gives people the idea it's normal and okay. Well it's not.

>

> And it's because companies are too greedy to self-regulate, that laws are coming, at least in the EU and some countries already have them. Because the truth is that kids who learn these addictive patterns are bad for the economy as a whole and because when it is considered gambling then of course the tax man wants his cut as well. I think it's fair to be a little bit milder towards ArenaNet but the bottom line is that their cash shop does use manipulative methods to increase sales and these methods do unfortunately exploit particularly people who are susceptible to this. At least with direct sales you know what you're getting, with RNG, you have no idea whether you'll get it at all. And finally, the point that a lot of stuff is cosmetic doesn't change anything. That's a weird idea that a lot of people have. This game is called Dress up Wars or whatever for a reason. Cosmetics are a big deal and that's what they're taking advantage of. But I do think the gaming industry as a whole has simply not been able to self-regulate. So as much as I prefer fewer regulations in general, this is clearly a situation where they will only have themselves to thank for them.

>

> I would really like ArenaNet to pull RNG from their gem store. I'd be the right thing to do. RNG can exist in the game but not in a cash shop. From a moral or ethical point of view you can't really defend them, particularly in a game rated for minors and they should be classed as gambling. That's my take on it at least. Anyone is free to have their views of course.

 

What makes them predatory?

 

The fact that it insentives to spent more money?

 

The fact that it might generate an addiction?

 

Something else?

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > @"Khisanth.2948" said:

> > > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > > Another loot-box/gambling thread? Really? Please use the forums search feature. This has been argued to death and beyond already. (sigh)

> >

> > It fits with a certain country lazily dumping the issue under gambling regulations :p

>

> Lazily? Why?

> Lootboxes ARE gambling and should be regulated as such. You dont let 13 year olds go and waste their birthday money on vegas do you?

 

Why should an adult be forbidden to enjoy a gamble because a lazy parent isnt doing their job?

[Amaranthe.3578]

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > > @"Khisanth.2948" said:

> > > > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > > > Another loot-box/gambling thread? Really? Please use the forums search feature. This has been argued to death and beyond already. (sigh)

> > >

> > > It fits with a certain country lazily dumping the issue under gambling regulations :p

> >

> > Lazily? Why?

> > Lootboxes ARE gambling and should be regulated as such. You dont let 13 year olds go and waste their birthday money on vegas do you?

>

> Why should an adult be forbidden to enjoy a gamble because a lazy parent isnt doing their job?

 

Did I say an adult should be forbidden? Gods no.

The issue is that if Lootboxes are labeled as gambling the games have to slapped with a M for mature raiting(which most of them dont have and really dont want because they make their money from selling gambling to kids). The point is that any gambling regulations that a country has should apply to loot boxes too.

Again I have to stress that I do not think Anet are bad guya like EA/Activision or other horrible companies and in no wayIm comparing Anet to those hacks.

[lightinthedark.2596]

Yes they are and they are immoral.

[Heibi.4251]

I don't view them as gambling. In gambling you have a chance to lose money or an item. With Blacklion Chests and Keys you are guaranteed something with every key. You may not get what you are looking for, i.e. Endless Hairstyle Kit or something like that, but you will get something. And some of those items you can sell and make gold on. Gambling is based on possible gain and/or total loss of investment, whereas BL Chests and Keys are based on use key and gain something. The value or desired outcome may just not be what you want. The stock market is closer to gambling than a BL Chest.

[Rysdude.3824]

I dont view them as gambling. Nor do I think its an issue. Ive spent thousands because I wanted to, not because I felt like I had to. To me, the arguments sound similiar to the all too familiar “guns kill people” argument.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> Are they? You are paying cash to basically roll the dice with a small chance of a "jackspot". How is that different from a slot machine in a casino in principle?

 

The difference is that you don't actually own what you win here.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

Yes they are gambling. The same as playing the game and hoping a mob drops a precursor or gambling ectos at the ecto gambler. Still gambling none the less.

 

The only difference is you could pay real life cash and 100% purchase a precursor off the tp vs buying 1000 black lion keys and possibly never attaining the rare exclusive, non buyable items inside.

 

Its further muddied because said unbuyable exclusive items eventually become available via black lion token at the vendor in the future.

 

So its gambling with alternative ways of obtaining the exclusive items.

[Neural.1824]

Loot Boxes are both gambling and not gambling when it comes to the laws governing gambling.

Companies that offer loot boxes currently skate around the gambling laws because they offer time-investment methods of obtaining the loot boxes.

 

If Black Lion Keys were *only* available via purchase with real world currency (US dollar for example), and it was impossible to get gems otherwise, then it could be genuinely considered gambling. You're paying money for a random chance to get a return that you want (which, ironically, isn't really a return at all, as the item you receive is still under the terms of service for the company, which states that said item is just pixels/bits and the company retains ownership of it anyway.)

However, you can currently "grind" your way to obtaining Black Lion Keys through a few methods. Key farming (once per week), map completion (1 in 4 chance), or grind for gold, convert to gems, and purchase with gems. Because of this, the legal system does not see Black Lion Keys as a form of gambling, because you don't *have* to pay for them.

 

What is going on in the industry right now is that there is a group of people who believe that because these items *can* be purchased with real money, that they *should* be considered gambling. The reality of this gets down to a lot of psychology in regards to addictions, interactions etc.

 

Personally I've learned to live with the way Black Lion Keys work, but if I could change something, I'd increase the map completion drop rate from 1 in 4, to 1 in 2.

 

[Tiviana.2650]

It comes down to minors being the target audience of most of these games. You want to get away from the regulation then slap a mature label on it and cover your self. But gaming companies are not that stupid they market to teens, they would lose money if they didnt, and a mature label or over 18 tag would be a death sentence for most games. But imo if you are going to have lootboxes that can also be bought with rl monies then you are going to be subject to regulation in regards to minors, if your game is not labeled for over 18 or 21. I dont care either way because im not going to buy keys or lootboxes from games, so regulate it or dont, just stating why there are new laws on the horizon.

[kharmin.7683]

Why does this really matter? If you, personally, like to "gamble" with BLC then do so. If you don't, then don't. How does another player's decision to "gamble" or not affect you?

[Rhyse.8179]

I'll just say this: Anet added guarunteed drops to the chests at almost exactly the same time EA's loot crates started being legally challenged as 'gambling' in Europe. What a coincidence.

[Kalocin.5982]

There's two people in this thread: People arguing if it's right or wrong, and people arguing if it's gambling.

 

I'm not answering person 1, that's going to be a year long argument.

 

Is it gambling? Depends on your perspective if something is at risk. To gamble, is inherently the concept of trying to get something with a chance of risk involved. What that risk may be, could be money, gold/gems etc. Likewise, you can even consider the failure of potential return a risk, even if you received the key for free. With this in mind, if you are a casual player, the risk is going to be inherently higher as the value itself is incredibly higher compared to someone who has the time to grind for gold/keys each week. As a result, I'd probably say it's gambling for everyone who usually has less gold than the cost of the key itself in gems.

 

Now that the semantic definition is out of the way, my own opinion is the key is basically a coin you put in the slot machine, and the scraps you get back are a consolation prize the vendor spent no money on.

[mauried.5608]

I doubt its gambling at all because in order to be gambling you have to win something and what you win must then belong to you.

In this game, as with all other MMOs, the entire content of the game is the property of ANET, including all your characters, all your gold , all your items.

None of them are yours.

 

[crepuscular.9047]

Yes, whenever RNG and Real World Money (even when it's optional) comes involved, it's a form of gambling

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> Yes they are gambling. The same as playing the game and hoping a mob drops a precursor or gambling ectos at the ecto gambler. Still gambling none the less.

>

> The only difference is you could pay real life cash and 100% purchase a precursor off the tp vs buying 1000 black lion keys and possibly never attaining the rare exclusive, non buyable items inside.

>

> Its further muddied because said unbuyable exclusive items eventually become available via black lion token at the vendor in the future.

>

> So its gambling with alternative ways of obtaining the exclusive items.

 

To be fair, if you buy and use 1000 keys you are guaranteed to get sufficient statuettes to buy any item. You might have to wait for a while for a given item to be added to the statuette list, but you have a 100% chance to get what you want...the opposite of gambling.

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> Another loot-box/gambling thread? Really? Please use the forums search feature. This has been argued to death and beyond already. (sigh)

 

Better than GW3 threads.

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

> @"BigBragg.8354" said:

> I am not so much a fan of RNG boxes, but here is a little perspective:

>

> Is RNG loot from a raid boss gambling?

 

No, because money isn't involved in that action.

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > > @"Khisanth.2948" said:

> > > > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > > > Another loot-box/gambling thread? Really? Please use the forums search feature. This has been argued to death and beyond already. (sigh)

> > >

> > > It fits with a certain country lazily dumping the issue under gambling regulations :p

> >

> > Lazily? Why?

> > Lootboxes ARE gambling and should be regulated as such. You dont let 13 year olds go and waste their birthday money on vegas do you?

>

> No, but then it's the PARENTS who should be doing the regulating. If some 13 year old is blowing $$$ on loot boxes, talk to the parents, not the government.

 

Take your comparison to the full extent that the parents can regulate their children as long as they are aware that gambling is involved. Your point defeats any argument against labeling lock boxes as gambling.

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

> @"yann.1946" said:

> What makes them predatory?

>

> The fact that it insentives to spent more money?

>

> The fact that it might generate an addiction?

>

> Something else?

 

Its predatory that they don't label it as gambling items under a guise that lets them skip out of regulation, confirmation, fraud prevention, and taxation.

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > > @"Khisanth.2948" said:

> > > > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > > > Another loot-box/gambling thread? Really? Please use the forums search feature. This has been argued to death and beyond already. (sigh)

> > >

> > > It fits with a certain country lazily dumping the issue under gambling regulations :p

> >

> > Lazily? Why?

> > Lootboxes ARE gambling and should be regulated as such. You dont let 13 year olds go and waste their birthday money on vegas do you?

>

> Why should an adult be forbidden to enjoy a gamble because a lazy parent isnt doing their job?

 

Why should people play a game, with game play that doesn't have anything to do with gambling, have to succumb to a system that doesn't let them outright buy the luxury items?