so why no player to player trading?

[maddoctor.2738]

I don't see a reason why player - player trading should exist. What would the purpose be, other than avoiding the tax (that would exist anyway if there was official player - player trading)

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> I thought you posted above that you understood why there is a tax on TP trades.

doesn't mean I have to like it.

[sorudo.9054]

what about simply being able to trade, i don't give a rats ass about taxes or anything, i just want to personally hand out something to a lone and under-geared player.

and no, i don't think the mail box is good enough, it's so impersonal and distant.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > I thought you posted above that you understood why there is a tax on TP trades.

> doesn't mean I have to like it.

 

No, of course not. I wasn't trying to imply that it does.

 

What I meant was, given that you understand the reasons and how critical they are, do you have other reasons for wanting P2P in this game?

(I've stated mine above, if that's helpful.)

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"sorudo.9054" said:

> what about simply being able to trade, i don't give a rats kitten about taxes or anything, i just want to personally hand out something to a lone and under-geared player.

> and no, i don't think the mail box is good enough, it's so impersonal and distant.

 

How is it impersonal? You are directly communicating with the other player, getting as close as possible given that you are separated by two separate internet routings. Maybe your avatars aren't adjacent, although I consider that a positive, because it means I can reach out to anyone on the map without having to chase them down (or for them to find me). I've had some really good chats with people after doing this, even though my motivation is just to give those trying to help themselves a leg up.

 

I'm not sure how a different interface makes it more personal, unless the P2P window requires typing a message.

[mauried.5608]

The above post hits the nail on the head.

Currently there is no way to sell an item to a particular player.

eg I may want to sell a legendary weapon to another player who has helped me in the past as a favour, and as a result I want to sell it for a far lower price than the weapons on the TP are.

The TP is fine for simply buying and selling stuff providing you dont care who you are buying from and selling too.

 

 

[kharmin.7683]

> @"mauried.5608" said:

 

> eg I may want to sell a legendary weapon to another player who has helped me in the past as a favour,

 

Wow, must be some kind of favor then.

 

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"mauried.5608" said:

> The above post hits the nail on the head.

> Currently there is no way to sell an item to a particular player.

> eg I may want to sell a legendary weapon to another player who has helped me in the past as a favour, and as a result I want to sell it for a far lower price than the weapons on the TP are.

> The TP is fine for simply buying and selling stuff providing you dont care who you are buying from and selling too.

>

>

 

Um, isn't that what mailing the item to the other person is for, you mail it to them and they mail you back the gold or what ever...if you're doing it for the reasons you state then you must be trusting that person on the other end to not be turning around and selling the item immediately for a huge profit. Just take time to think about that before responding...or I'd prefer you don't respond at all.

[Ol Nik.2518]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> I don't see a reason why player - player trading should exist. What would the purpose be, other than avoiding the tax (that would exist anyway if there was official player - player trading)

 

Let me suggest at least two reasons:

**1. barter, aka direct exchange of goods**

Barter can be helpful if you are looking for something rare that is hard to get from TP. Expensive infusions are good candidates for a barter system. People might be unwilling to sell them because they do not need cash, but might be willing to trade them for other expensive infusions or rare drops like invisible shoes. In this case, barter facilitates economic transactions by eliminating uncertainty for those who are after rare goods.

**2. trading with a specific person**

I can imagine a variety of situations where I might want to trade with a specific person. I might want to enter an agreement to sell something at a discount price in exchange for some services. Right now there is no mechanism guaranteeing that p2p trade will succeed, i.e. I will get my money for goods. The TP does not allow transactions with specific people so I cannot guarantee that my discounted goods will be bought by the intended buyer.

_________________________________________________________________________

 

One way to implement p2p trading would be the creation of a shared interface where both parties can see items and money added to the transaction and both are required to approve before the transaction takes place. A system like this along with shared crafting interface was implemented in one MMORPG I used to play. Once in place, it helped to eliminate trade by mail and significantly reduced the risks of scam. Provisions can be made for Elon Gnashblade to collect his fees and thus make it impossible to fully avoid TP fees.

 

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Ol Nik.2518" said:

> **1. barter, aka direct exchange of goods**

> Barter can be helpful if you are looking for something rare that is hard to get from TP.

There aren't any items that are "hard to get from the TP" that aren't simply hard to get at all.

 

> Expensive infusions are good candidates for a barter system. People might be unwilling to sell them because they do not need cash, but might be willing to trade them for other expensive infusions or rare drops like invisible shoes.

And nothing stops that from happening now. In fact, there are anywhere from 4-20 new offers daily in the relevant subreddit (and more in the gray market Discord community).

 

 

> **2. trading with a specific person**

> I can imagine a variety of situations where I might want to trade with a specific person.

And yet nothing stops this from happening now. You can sell directly to anyone you want for any price that you like.

 

> One way to implement p2p trading would be the creation of a shared interface where both parties can see items and money added to the transaction and both are required to approve before the transaction takes place. A system like this along with shared crafting interface was implemented in one MMORPG I used to play. Once in place, it helped to eliminate trade by mail and significantly reduced the risks of scam. Provisions can be made for Elon Gnashblade to collect his fees and thus make it impossible to fully avoid TP fees.

The thing is the existing system already removes the possibility for scamming, it creates a single global market for all players (so no more tricks about what is or isn't a fair price), it is one of the most efficient and useful gold sinks of any game, and it doesn't require additional investment or future maintenance.

 

 

[alcopaul.2156]

it could work inheriting from the party system.

 

1.) both players party each other

2.) seller opens a dialog displaying the item that he sells

3.) buyer puts up the price

4.) if the amount put is not the agreed price, the seller resets the price offer, allowing the right price to be offered

5.) if the agreed price is put, the buyer presses ok.

6.) to avoid scamming, the seller cannot modify the item selled if the buyer says ok. the thing he can do is cancel the transaction if he changes his mind. thus there is no loss for the buyer if the transaction is canceled.

 

idk if this is safe against duping. coz we had a duping thing of arm braces before in GW1 with person to person trading.

 

the party system, i think, can trace the origin of dupes, if it is discovered, since partied transaction can be another column on the database.

[Blude.6812]

May I respectively suggest that the OP USE THE SEARCH BOX!!!. I just did and found this subject has been discussed many time over many years. Perhaps the mods can lock it down, merge it, and link all the other threads.

 

[Diak Atoli.2085]

> @"alcopaul.2156" said:

> it could work inheriting from the party system.

>

> 1.) both players party each other

> 2.) seller opens a dialog displaying the item that he sells

> 3.) buyer puts up the price

> 4.) if the amount put is not the agreed price, the seller resets the price offer, allowing the right price to be offered

> 5.) if the agreed price is put, the buyer presses ok.

> 6.) to avoid scamming, the seller cannot modify the item selled if the buyer says ok. the thing he can do is cancel the transaction if he changes his mind. thus there is no loss for the buyer if the transaction is canceled.

>

> idk if this is safe against duping. coz we had a duping thing of arm braces before in GW1 with person to person trading.

>

> the party system, i think, can trace the origin of dupes, if it is discovered, since partied transaction can be another column on the database.

 

The question is not 'how', but 'why'. 'Why' do we need a peer-to-peer trading system when all can be accomplished either through direct mailing or the trading post?

[alcopaul.2156]

> @"Diak Atoli.2085" said:

> > @"alcopaul.2156" said:

> > it could work inheriting from the party system.

> >

> > 1.) both players party each other

> > 2.) seller opens a dialog displaying the item that he sells

> > 3.) buyer puts up the price

> > 4.) if the amount put is not the agreed price, the seller resets the price offer, allowing the right price to be offered

> > 5.) if the agreed price is put, the buyer presses ok.

> > 6.) to avoid scamming, the seller cannot modify the item selled if the buyer says ok. the thing he can do is cancel the transaction if he changes his mind. thus there is no loss for the buyer if the transaction is canceled.

> >

> > idk if this is safe against duping. coz we had a duping thing of arm braces before in GW1 with person to person trading.

> >

> > the party system, i think, can trace the origin of dupes, if it is discovered, since partied transaction can be another column on the database.

>

> The question is not 'how', but 'why'. 'Why' do we need a peer-to-peer trading system when all can be accomplished either through direct mailing or the trading post?

 

for my side, it could be an option.

 

but im pretty satisfied with the BLTC coz you'll know the agreed upon price for an item. for person to person, overpricing/underpricing(sellers loss) can occur.

 

and yeah, for direct mailing, you can easy report scammers. the Customer Support/Game Mods/Watchers are pretty tough on these. if trolling can get you ~6 months suspension, how much more for scammers/thieves?

[Tanner Blackfeather.6509]

> @"alcopaul.2156" said:

> [...]

> 6.) to avoid scamming, the seller cannot modify the item selled if the buyer says ok. the thing he can do is cancel the transaction if he changes his mind. thus there is no loss for the buyer if the transaction is canceled.

>

This is not materially different from gw1's system. Scams happened all the time anyway. Open trade, put in offer, cancel trade, put in changed offer. "Preferably" a few times with no or inocuous changes.

 

For those suggesting Anet adds a p2p trade system, remember that it has to *add value* (qol etc) to *exceed*

* the actual development/implementation cost

* *and* the increased Customer Service needs as there *will* be scams.

 

Remember - scams happen today, in trade-by-mail, *but as that isn't actually supported* Anet can say "oh that's too bad, we'll ban the scammer".

If they *add* a trade system, they can't very well say that it isn't supported, so a "tough luck" approach would (accurately) draw heavy critisism. So, *significantly* more CS work.

[alcopaul.2156]

> @"Tanner Blackfeather.6509" said:

> > @"alcopaul.2156" said:

> > [...]

> > 6.) to avoid scamming, the seller cannot modify the item selled if the buyer says ok. the thing he can do is cancel the transaction if he changes his mind. thus there is no loss for the buyer if the transaction is canceled.

> >

> This is not materially different from gw1's system. Scams happened all the time anyway. Open trade, put in offer, cancel trade, put in changed offer. "Preferably" a few times with no or inocuous changes.

>

> For those suggesting Anet adds a p2p trade system, remember that it has to *add value* (qol etc) to *exceed*

> * the actual development/implementation cost

> * *and* the increased Customer Service needs as there *will* be scams.

>

> Remember - scams happen today, in trade-by-mail, *but as that isn't actually supported* Anet can say "oh that's too bad, we'll ban the scammer".

> If they *add* a trade system, they can't very well say that it isn't supported, so a "tough luck" approach would (accurately) draw heavy critisism. So, *significantly* more CS work.

 

the item for sale can include a "Unique TEXT HASH" so you'll know visually if it is changed or not.

[Tanner Blackfeather.6509]

> @"alcopaul.2156" said:

> > @"Tanner Blackfeather.6509" said:

> > > @"alcopaul.2156" said:

> > > [...]

> > > 6.) to avoid scamming, the seller cannot modify the item selled if the buyer says ok. the thing he can do is cancel the transaction if he changes his mind. thus there is no loss for the buyer if the transaction is canceled.

> > >

> > This is not materially different from gw1's system. Scams happened all the time anyway. Open trade, put in offer, cancel trade, put in changed offer. "Preferably" a few times with no or inocuous changes.

> >

> > For those suggesting Anet adds a p2p trade system, remember that it has to *add value* (qol etc) to *exceed*

> > * the actual development/implementation cost

> > * *and* the increased Customer Service needs as there *will* be scams.

> >

> > Remember - scams happen today, in trade-by-mail, *but as that isn't actually supported* Anet can say "oh that's too bad, we'll ban the scammer".

> > If they *add* a trade system, they can't very well say that it isn't supported, so a "tough luck" approach would (accurately) draw heavy critisism. So, *significantly* more CS work.

>

> the item for sale can include a "Unique TEXT HASH" so you'll know visually if it is changed or not.

 

GW1 had that - the entire offer was covered with a message "The offer has been changed". That will not matter. *People don't pay enough attention*. Saying "tough luck" is actually not entirely unreasonable, but definitely not an approach Anet can take.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > I thought you posted above that you understood why there is a tax on TP trades.

> > doesn't mean I have to like it.

>

> No, of course not. I wasn't trying to imply that it does.

>

> What I meant was, given that you understand the reasons and how critical they are, do you have other reasons for wanting P2P in this game?

> (I've stated mine above, if that's helpful.)

 

I just like trading is all.

[alcopaul.2156]

> @"alcopaul.2156" said:

> > @"Tanner Blackfeather.6509" said:

> > > @"alcopaul.2156" said:

> > > [...]

> > > 6.) to avoid scamming, the seller cannot modify the item selled if the buyer says ok. the thing he can do is cancel the transaction if he changes his mind. thus there is no loss for the buyer if the transaction is canceled.

> > >

> > This is not materially different from gw1's system. Scams happened all the time anyway. Open trade, put in offer, cancel trade, put in changed offer. "Preferably" a few times with no or inocuous changes.

> >

> > For those suggesting Anet adds a p2p trade system, remember that it has to *add value* (qol etc) to *exceed*

> > * the actual development/implementation cost

> > * *and* the increased Customer Service needs as there *will* be scams.

> >

> > Remember - scams happen today, in trade-by-mail, *but as that isn't actually supported* Anet can say "oh that's too bad, we'll ban the scammer".

> > If they *add* a trade system, they can't very well say that it isn't supported, so a "tough luck" approach would (accurately) draw heavy critisism. So, *significantly* more CS work.

>

> the item for sale can include a "Unique TEXT HASH" so you'll know visually if it is changed or not.

> GW1 had that - the entire offer was covered with a message "The offer has been changed". That will not matter. *People don't pay enough attention*. Saying "tough luck" is actually not entirely unreasonable, but definitely not an approach Anet can take.

 

 

thus validating my previous statement that if the buyer says ok, all the seller can do is to cancel the transaction if either he changes his mind or plans to scam and the dialog UIs on the seller and buyer resets.

[Ol Nik.2518]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"Ol Nik.2518" said:

> > **1. barter, aka direct exchange of goods**

> > Barter can be helpful if you are looking for something rare that is hard to get from TP.

> There aren't any items that are "hard to get from the TP" that aren't simply hard to get at all.>

 

Does this disprove that rare items are good candidates for the barter system?

 

> > Expensive infusions are good candidates for a barter system. People might be unwilling to sell them because they do not need cash, but might be willing to trade them for other expensive infusions or rare drops like invisible shoes.

> And nothing stops that from happening now. In fact, there are anywhere from 4-20 new offers daily in the relevant subreddit (and more in the gray market Discord community).

>

You are just proving my point.

>

> > **2. trading with a specific person**

> > I can imagine a variety of situations where I might want to trade with a specific person.

> And yet nothing stops this from happening now. You can sell directly to anyone you want for any price that you like.

>

It is not possible to have a 100% safe transaction with a specific person in the current system. An in-game p2p trade system can address the safety issue.

 

> > One way to implement p2p trading would be the creation of a shared interface where both parties can see items and money added to the transaction and both are required to approve before the transaction takes place. A system like this along with shared crafting interface was implemented in one MMORPG I used to play. Once in place, it helped to eliminate trade by mail and significantly reduced the risks of scam. Provisions can be made for Elon Gnashblade to collect his fees and thus make it impossible to fully avoid TP fees.

> The thing is the existing system already removes the possibility for scamming, it creates a single global market for all players (so no more tricks about what is or isn't a fair price), it is one of the most efficient and useful gold sinks of any game, and it doesn't require additional investment or future maintenance.

>

>

While I agree with much of your sentiment about the system in place, I do not believe it is perfect. I would also suggest that the system in place is very much in need of additional investments, corrections, polishing, and future maintenance. Reducing lag, polishing interface, improving search, eliminating 10 000g upper price ceiling, and removing misleading old orders are just some of the things the developers could (and probably should) address.

 

 

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Ol Nik.2518" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said:

> > > **1. barter, aka direct exchange of goods**

> > > Barter can be helpful if you are looking for something rare that is hard to get from TP.

> > There aren't any items that are "hard to get from the TP" that aren't simply hard to get at all.>

>

> Does this disprove that rare items are good candidates for the barter system?

My point is that it's not a meaningful benefit, because only a few people would benefit from this.

There are maybe four such items in the game (more if you count the stat-swapping variants, but they have identical sources so it doesn't affect the total supply). Further, if ANet cared about the issue, they could much more easily raise the trading cap of 10k gold to e.g. 30k gold. (There are potential economic issues with that, so they might have to add a feature that enables a cap break in the API: by default, the cap would be 10k; they could adjust it for specific items.

 

 

>

> > > Expensive infusions are good candidates for a barter system. People might be unwilling to sell them because they do not need cash, but might be willing to trade them for other expensive infusions or rare drops like invisible shoes.

> > And nothing stops that from happening now. In fact, there are anywhere from 4-20 new offers daily in the relevant subreddit (and more in the gray market Discord community).

> >

> You are just proving my point.

The benefit you want already exists. People who don't want to use the TP ... already don't use the TP. How would adding P2P trading benefit the game?

 

> >

> > > **2. trading with a specific person**

> > > I can imagine a variety of situations where I might want to trade with a specific person.

> > And yet nothing stops this from happening now. You can sell directly to anyone you want for any price that you like.

> >

> It is not possible to have a 100% safe transaction with a specific person in the current system. An in-game p2p trade system can address the safety issue.

First, no, it cannot. It can remove some of the mechanisms that scammers use, but it cannot eliminate the possibility that you aren't getting a "fair" price.

 

Second, the vast majority of people don't need 100% safe P2P transactions because everything they trade is available on the TP. (I'm not ignoring the so-called too-rare items; I don't agree that is relevant for the purposes of determining whether the game needs this.)

 

>

> > > One way to implement p2p trading would be the creation of a shared interface where both parties can see items and money added to the transaction and both are required to approve before the transaction takes place. A system like this along with shared crafting interface was implemented in one MMORPG I used to play. Once in place, it helped to eliminate trade by mail and significantly reduced the risks of scam. Provisions can be made for Elon Gnashblade to collect his fees and thus make it impossible to fully avoid TP fees.

> > The thing is the existing system already removes the possibility for scamming, it creates a single global market for all players (so no more tricks about what is or isn't a fair price), it is one of the most efficient and useful gold sinks of any game, and it doesn't require additional investment or future maintenance.

> >

> >

> While I agree with much of your sentiment about the system in place, I do not believe it is perfect. I would also suggest that the system in place is very much in need of additional investments, corrections, polishing, and future maintenance. Reducing lag, polishing interface, improving search, eliminating 10 000g upper price ceiling, and removing misleading old orders are just some of the things the developers could (and probably should) address.

>

All of those polishes and flourishes are worthwhile. Those aren't the topic of this thread and none of them would be made better by adding P2P trading to the game. (If anything, it would delay the implementation of it, because the same people would be responsible for both.)

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > I thought you posted above that you understood why there is a tax on TP trades.

> > > doesn't mean I have to like it.

> >

> > No, of course not. I wasn't trying to imply that it does.

> >

> > What I meant was, given that you understand the reasons and how critical they are, do you have other reasons for wanting P2P in this game?

> > (I've stated mine above, if that's helpful.)

>

> I just like trading is all.

 

And the truth is that you _can_ trade with the systems as is. You just have to work through a third party to avoid being taken advantage of. I can understand the desire to have ANet make that process easier for you. However, if the goal is interaction, the workaround offers more opportunity for it (you must communicate with the buyer/seller _and_ the broker). Any ANet-supported process which would be more convenient for you is likely to involve negative consequences for others.

[Celsith.2753]

I just wish theyd increase the maximum sell price and protect the richer players wanting to buy/sell high end infusions.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Nasbit.3240" said:

> > @"TheQuickFox.3826" said:

> > By the way: Some extremely rare items like the [Chak Infusion](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chak_Infusion "Chak Infusion") tend to be traded outside of the trading post already because these items are bought for more than 10000 gold, which is the TP limit. I wonder how they are traded here.

>

> i posted the sub-reddit above where a lot of this trades are done.

> Most trades have a man-in-the-middle, which is mostly one of the moderators of the subreddit. Or someone else both sides trust. Thats how trading today works. An P2P-Trading-UI would just replace the middle-man.

>

 

That's good and all ... but I think you missed the part where Anet officially said it's not happening. No one is arguing it's not possible. It's a done deal and Anet has given us their good reasons why.

[Squirrel.6318]

Because they have the TP, but they should have added trading between players as well. As there are barely any social interactions in the game.