kins.3294 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"BlueJin.4127" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > Y'all are missing the real concern from that graph ... the sum of all of the PC game revenue barely adds up to the mobile game revenues. If a game dev company can make an order of magnitude more bux by switching platform ... they would be crazy to not do so. Admittedly, I don't know how many games are in that 'mobile' part of the graph, but that's the biggest concern to me. > > > > I have never been, nor will I ever worry that mobile gaming will kill hardcore gaming. It's just not gonna happen. Mobile games and hardcore games are not mutually exclusive, just like there are different sports, different smartphones, different entertainment, etc. If games become 10 times more popular than movies, for example, movies will not die. Also, multiplatform gaming companies think of mobile as extra projects (just like how they make PC AND console games), not replacements. That's because they know mobile games and hardcore games cater to different crowds and they'll want to make more money covering all audiences. And since there are limited audiences for each platform, making 10 mobile games isn't necessary a better decision than making less games covering multioke platforms. > > > > What I am concerned about, is move to streaming and games as a service. These are things many game companies actively want to switch. > > > > In any case, according to the report, mobile games make up 53% of sales. According to wiki, there are currently 8 PC games (including GW1 from 2005 and Aion from 2009) and 6 mobile games. There are currently 7 titles in development, covering PC, mobile, and consoles. > > You should be because it won't kill it, but it will compete for resources within a game company, or the industry at large. If you still want a variety of high quality PC-based MMO's being released to the market using the latest tech, mobile gaming is a serious threat to that. > > I don't get the idea that there is a concern about moving to games as a service ... the structure of GW2 as a business is fundamentally a service already. Mobile games are just a craze, specially if you want at least some complexity. Have you tried to play League of legends and Lineage on mobile? It sucks and most people have already left it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiviana.2650 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > Y'all are missing the real concern from that graph ... the sum of all of the PC game revenue barely adds up to the mobile game revenues. If a game dev company can make an order of magnitude more bux by switching platform ... they would be crazy to not do so. Admittedly, I don't know how many games are in that 'mobile' part of the graph, but that's the biggest concern to me. > > > > they only make so much profit because they use unethical / predatory monetization strategies (even worse than the usual asia MMO). > > Sure ... but that doesn't stop them from making that money or any other company from capitalizing on it. The bottomline is that the threat to PC MMO's aren't other PC MMO's ... it's mobile platform. Yes thats true, but thats not the fault of the mmo. The blame can be squarely laid at the feet of the people playing. Society does not want to sit at a pc for hours anymore to play a game. People like to be on the go or have short bursts of gaming on their phones. PCs are dying altogether as phones and tablets become stronger and you can take them anywhere. When i was a kid the gamers used a pc , nowdays the phone is the outlet of choice to play on, mobile gaming is accelerating faster than any other form. and game companies have taken note. If you want to carry on into the future you must evolve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx. > > Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat. They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiviana.2650 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx. > > > > Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat. > > They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting. I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx. > > > > > > Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat. > > > > They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting. > > I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc. I think you misunderstand what DX actually does. Edit: GW2 would benefit more from revamping the game engine itself than upgrading the DX version it utilizes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikali.9651 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > Y'all are missing the real concern from that graph ... the sum of all of the PC game revenue barely adds up to the mobile game revenues. If a game dev company can make an order of magnitude more bux by switching platform ... they would be crazy to not do so. Admittedly, I don't know how many games are in that 'mobile' part of the graph, but that's the biggest concern to me. > > > > > > they only make so much profit because they use unethical / predatory monetization strategies (even worse than the usual asia MMO). > > > > Sure ... but that doesn't stop them from making that money or any other company from capitalizing on it. The bottomline is that the threat to PC MMO's aren't other PC MMO's ... it's mobile platform. > > Yes thats true, but thats not the fault of the mmo. The blame can be squarely laid at the feet of the people playing. Society does not want to sit at a pc for hours anymore to play a game. People like to be on the go or have short bursts of gaming on their phones. PCs are dying altogether as phones and tablets become stronger and you can take them anywhere. When i was a kid the gamers used a pc , nowdays the phone is the outlet of choice to play on, mobile gaming is accelerating faster than any other form. and game companies have taken note. If you want to carry on into the future you must evolve. absolutely not true. Both exist and people use both. Not one or another. Both. No one replaced anything with another. Mobile games just have it easier selling things, in my personal case I spent more on Duel Links than on Guild Wars 2 this year. When I am at home and have free time I play GW2, when I am doing a minor activity which doesn't really take much attention, I "play" Duel Links, mostly just using autoplay function to grind it a bit faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiviana.2650 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx. > > > > > > > > Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat. > > > > > > They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting. > > > > I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc. > > I think you misunderstand what DX actually does. Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato. DX9 will bottleneck every time on big groups, its single threaded! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx. > > > > > > > > > > Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat. > > > > > > > > They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting. > > > > > > I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc. > > > > I think you misunderstand what DX actually does. > > Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato. Not all games are designed the same. Also: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eloc Freidon.5692 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 If the LW5's big feature is Mount levels of amazing and not tied to an expansion, imagine the numbers. Players just buying things they like in the gem store, because the game provides something immediately available, hours of fun, and has no initial price tag. Its a significant factor in any game that GW2 has yet to really capitalize on. Especially if the story content is structured in a way that you don't need 6 years of previous content to wrap your head around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiviana.2650 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > > The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx. > > > > > > > > > > > > Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat. > > > > > > > > > > They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting. > > > > > > > > I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc. > > > > > > I think you misunderstand what DX actually does. > > > > Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato. > > Not all games are designed the same. > > Also: You know what never mind, ill stick to what the professionals say about single threaded DX9. The game is cpu bound no getting away from that because of dx9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"Mea.5491" said: > The biggest "problem" is that Anet gives away DLCs (living world episodes) for free and allows Gold to Gems exchange. Sure, it's good for us but bad for them. Not many MMO devs are this generous for obvious reasons... Anet is basically throwing money out the window. Meanwhile other MMO devs do proper bundles with their items (offering actual discounts), offer discounts if you buy their virtual currencies in bulk, offer coupons to get their currencies at a discount (sometimes big discount). Others don't use loot boxes at all. Another emerging trend is to offer most items for both cash and in-game currencies without an exchange taking place to needlessly inflate the prices. Fixed price in gold, fixed price in gems for all items. Now not every other MMO dev does all that at once, but it's a list of things that other developers are doing, that Anet does not, and could certainly help with the game. When was the last time Anet offered a discount for GEMS? Oh wait they've never done a single discount. The cash-to-gems ratio has been set and never changed since release, the lifeline of the game has never had any kind of update, sale or change since release... Individual item discounts don't really count, you must be interested in the given items for it to be worth it, but a sale on ACTUAL gems? Yes please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx. > > > > > > > > > > Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat. > > > > > > > > They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting. > > > > > > I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc. > > > > I think you misunderstand what DX actually does. > > Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato. DX9 will bottleneck every time on big groups, its single threaded! Actually DX12 has been garbage so far. The games that run well on DirectX 12 are limited (is there any?) and in the vast majority of titles it's superior performance wise to select the DirectX 11 version instead of 12. When selecting 12 there is a massive fps loss with no visual gain. Further, DX12 is only available on Windows 10. No, moving to DirectX 12 at its current state would be a terrible mistake (it could even make things worse instead of better). If there was a need to update, they should update to DirectX 11, wide support from the playerbase, and it WORKS, unlike DirectX 12 which only works in benchmarks and in theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueJin.4127 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > Snip And in a few months, these companies will try to expand, again. 1) When the public reads one article that a company is downsizing or their next few projects have more mobile games, they think this is some major change and panic. What's actually going on is that nothing has changed, long term. :smile: Without the public knowing, companies grow and downsize repeatedly. Trust me, this is not the first time Activision has made "news worthy" shuffling. It's just that the public never hears about them. Companies also shift projects and resources constantly, majority of which the public never hears about. One public info that a company is shifting resources or has started making mobile games is nothing new and nothing of concern. It's just that the public and the media pretty much never hears about these constant and completely normal internal processes, so when they do hear about "one change" (that is actually not a change and part of the constant on-going process), they take it out of context and blow it up as if something major is happening. Again, I'm not saying there are 0 effects on hardcore gaming. But it's really not as scary as the general public, who doesn't know the whole story, think. Also, I think Danikat's post above explains other aspects well about why people shouldn't be worried about mobile having a huge effect on hardcore gaming (though, what a person considers to be enough of an impact will vary). 2) DLC’s and lootboxes have nothing to do with mobile games. People who don’t work in the game industry may think mobile gaming is the cause of this, but these things were stuff many game companies were working on internally or already had out and were expanding upon, before mobile gaming even became a thing. There can be no mobile gaming right now, and we'd still have heavy monetization. Microsoft and Xbox Live were actually the biggest catalyst of the current trend of heavy monetization, IIRC. That is not to say that we wouldn't see heavy monetization if not for Microsoft. Again, there are a lot of things that game companies work on internally, that the public never hears about. 3) I didn’t say piracy is the only reason for wanting gaming as a service. I mention money in the very post you’re quoting. And yes, piracy IS one of the many reasons. 4) Yes, video streaming uses more bandwidth right now. I’m talking about the future, if games become very reliant on streaming. And I'm not talking about which entertainment may get the biggest pie. I'm talking about how ISP's will try to handle such a huge increase in traffic if games in the future become very reliant on streaming, on top of what we already stream, and how this may negatively impact gamers. EDIT - Again, sorry about constant edits. I'm done, for real this time. :smile: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiviana.2650 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > > The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx. > > > > > > > > > > > > Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat. > > > > > > > > > > They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting. > > > > > > > > I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc. > > > > > > I think you misunderstand what DX actually does. > > > > Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato. DX9 will bottleneck every time on big groups, its single threaded! > > Actually DX12 has been garbage so far. The games that run well on DirectX 12 are limited (is there any?) and in the vast majority of titles it's superior performance wise to select the DirectX 11 version instead of 12. When selecting 12 there is a massive fps loss with no visual gain. Further, DX12 is only available on Windows 10. No, moving to DirectX 12 at its current state would be a terrible mistake (it could even make things worse instead of better). If there was a need to update, they should update to DirectX 11, wide support from the playerbase, and it WORKS, unlike DirectX 12 which only works in benchmarks and in theory. The reason being is people dont optimize dx12, i made the same mistake at first and hated it. DX12 comes out of the box with all the bells and whistles switched on, its up to the user to adjust the settings but few know and do that. Once done DX12 is amazing. Let me put it this way, a pc that has less cores and no multi/hyperthreading will play GW2 better than a pc with win 10 with many cores and threads. This game plays on a single core overworking it and getting it hot. DX9 will not allow multi core or threading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malediktus.9250 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > > The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx. > > > > > > > > > > > > Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat. > > > > > > > > > > They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting. > > > > > > > > I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc. > > > > > > I think you misunderstand what DX actually does. > > > > Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato. DX9 will bottleneck every time on big groups, its single threaded! > > Actually DX12 has been garbage so far. The games that run well on DirectX 12 are limited (is there any?) and in the vast majority of titles it's superior performance wise to select the DirectX 11 version instead of 12. When selecting 12 there is a massive fps loss with no visual gain. Further, DX12 is only available on Windows 10. No, moving to DirectX 12 at its current state would be a terrible mistake (it could even make things worse instead of better). If there was a need to update, they should update to DirectX 11, wide support from the playerbase, and it WORKS, unlike DirectX 12 which only works in benchmarks and in theory. DX12 puts the effort on the developers instead of the driver (until DX11 the driver does a lot of work for the devs) since like vulcan it is a low level API. So if it runs worse than DX11 it is entirely the developers fault for being bad. But it can bring considerable performance boosts over dx9 as shown by the wrapper d912pxy which isn't even native dx12. A native dx12 implementation would be even more powerful if done right. And DX12 being W10 only is no issue since the older versions are outdated and W7/8 were offered free upgrades to W10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > > > The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat. > > > > > > > > > > > > They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting. > > > > > > > > > > I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc. > > > > > > > > I think you misunderstand what DX actually does. > > > > > > Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato. DX9 will bottleneck every time on big groups, its single threaded! > > > > Actually DX12 has been garbage so far. The games that run well on DirectX 12 are limited (is there any?) and in the vast majority of titles it's superior performance wise to select the DirectX 11 version instead of 12. When selecting 12 there is a massive fps loss with no visual gain. Further, DX12 is only available on Windows 10. No, moving to DirectX 12 at its current state would be a terrible mistake (it could even make things worse instead of better). If there was a need to update, they should update to DirectX 11, wide support from the playerbase, and it WORKS, unlike DirectX 12 which only works in benchmarks and in theory. > > The reason being is people dont optimize dx12, i made the same mistake at first and hated it. DX12 comes out of the box with all the bells and whistles switched on, its up to the user to adjust the settings but few know and do that. Once done DX12 is amazing. Talking about all settings activated for both dx11 and dx12. dx11 performance always beats dx12, it has been a failure for gaming so far. The savior of gaming is Vulkan, that offers ACTUAL performance boosts (very large boosts if I may add) compared to OpenGL, which is what makes dx12 so puzzling. It should have the same performance gains but in real games, it simply doesn't. There is a reason why all youtube channels benchmark the games on their dx11 version and even state to stay away of the dx12 because it's crap. I guess they don't know what to switch off either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > > > The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat. > > > > > > > > > > > > They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting. > > > > > > > > > > I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc. > > > > > > > > I think you misunderstand what DX actually does. > > > > > > Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato. DX9 will bottleneck every time on big groups, its single threaded! > > > > Actually DX12 has been garbage so far. The games that run well on DirectX 12 are limited (is there any?) and in the vast majority of titles it's superior performance wise to select the DirectX 11 version instead of 12. When selecting 12 there is a massive fps loss with no visual gain. Further, DX12 is only available on Windows 10. No, moving to DirectX 12 at its current state would be a terrible mistake (it could even make things worse instead of better). If there was a need to update, they should update to DirectX 11, wide support from the playerbase, and it WORKS, unlike DirectX 12 which only works in benchmarks and in theory. > > DX12 puts the effort on the developers instead of the driver since like vulcan it is a low level API. So if it runs worse than DX11 it is entirely the developers fault for being bad. Exactly why I said in theory (and benchmarks) dx12 wins over dx11, but in real game situations it almost always loses (badly if I may add), there is no hidden setting to make dx12 better than dx11, it's just not implemented properly by any game out there. Only Vulkan does what's advertised: giving performance boosts in real games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malediktus.9250 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > > > > The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc. > > > > > > > > > > I think you misunderstand what DX actually does. > > > > > > > > Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato. DX9 will bottleneck every time on big groups, its single threaded! > > > > > > Actually DX12 has been garbage so far. The games that run well on DirectX 12 are limited (is there any?) and in the vast majority of titles it's superior performance wise to select the DirectX 11 version instead of 12. When selecting 12 there is a massive fps loss with no visual gain. Further, DX12 is only available on Windows 10. No, moving to DirectX 12 at its current state would be a terrible mistake (it could even make things worse instead of better). If there was a need to update, they should update to DirectX 11, wide support from the playerbase, and it WORKS, unlike DirectX 12 which only works in benchmarks and in theory. > > > > DX12 puts the effort on the developers instead of the driver since like vulcan it is a low level API. So if it runs worse than DX11 it is entirely the developers fault for being bad. > > Exactly why I said in theory (and benchmarks) dx12 wins over dx11, but in real game situations it almost always loses (badly if I may add), there is no hidden setting to make dx12 better than dx11, it's just not implemented properly by any game out there. Only Vulkan does what's advertised: giving performance boosts in real games. Sadly the nature of devs taking the easy path. Programming a good dx12 engine takes a lot more expertise than programming a dx11 or lower engine. So if it runs bad, blame the devs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiviana.2650 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > > > > The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc. > > > > > > > > > > I think you misunderstand what DX actually does. > > > > > > > > Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato. DX9 will bottleneck every time on big groups, its single threaded! > > > > > > Actually DX12 has been garbage so far. The games that run well on DirectX 12 are limited (is there any?) and in the vast majority of titles it's superior performance wise to select the DirectX 11 version instead of 12. When selecting 12 there is a massive fps loss with no visual gain. Further, DX12 is only available on Windows 10. No, moving to DirectX 12 at its current state would be a terrible mistake (it could even make things worse instead of better). If there was a need to update, they should update to DirectX 11, wide support from the playerbase, and it WORKS, unlike DirectX 12 which only works in benchmarks and in theory. > > > > The reason being is people dont optimize dx12, i made the same mistake at first and hated it. DX12 comes out of the box with all the bells and whistles switched on, its up to the user to adjust the settings but few know and do that. Once done DX12 is amazing. > > Talking about all settings activated for both dx11 and dx12. dx11 performance always beats dx12, it has been a failure for gaming so far. The savior of gaming is Vulkan, that offers ACTUAL performance boosts (very large boosts if I may add) compared to OpenGL, which is what makes dx12 so puzzling. It should have the same performance gains but in real games, it simply doesn't. There is a reason why all youtube channels benchmark the games on their dx11 version and even state to stay away of the dx12 because it's kitten. I guess they don't know what to switch off either. Few game companies are going to use vulkan, when dx is the mainstay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > > > > > The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think you misunderstand what DX actually does. > > > > > > > > > > Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato. DX9 will bottleneck every time on big groups, its single threaded! > > > > > > > > Actually DX12 has been garbage so far. The games that run well on DirectX 12 are limited (is there any?) and in the vast majority of titles it's superior performance wise to select the DirectX 11 version instead of 12. When selecting 12 there is a massive fps loss with no visual gain. Further, DX12 is only available on Windows 10. No, moving to DirectX 12 at its current state would be a terrible mistake (it could even make things worse instead of better). If there was a need to update, they should update to DirectX 11, wide support from the playerbase, and it WORKS, unlike DirectX 12 which only works in benchmarks and in theory. > > > > > > DX12 puts the effort on the developers instead of the driver since like vulcan it is a low level API. So if it runs worse than DX11 it is entirely the developers fault for being bad. > > > > Exactly why I said in theory (and benchmarks) dx12 wins over dx11, but in real game situations it almost always loses (badly if I may add), there is no hidden setting to make dx12 better than dx11, it's just not implemented properly by any game out there. Only Vulkan does what's advertised: giving performance boosts in real games. > > Sadly the nature of devs taking the easy path. Programming a good dx12 engine takes a lot more expertise than programming a dx11 or lower engine. So if it runs bad, blame the devs. To go back to the argument of GW2 going to DirectX 12, why should they bother? Are the Arenanet engine devs so much better than everyone else that will take advantage of what DX12 offers? I doubt it, so the most sensible solutions would be to update the engine for DX11 instead. The performance gains should be better, trusted, and apply to a higher percentage of the playerbase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > > > The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat. > > > > > > > > > > > > They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting. > > > > > > > > > > I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc. > > > > > > > > I think you misunderstand what DX actually does. > > > > > > Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato. > > > > Not all games are designed the same. > > > > Also: > > You know what never mind, ill stick to what the professionals say about single threaded DX9. The game is cpu bound no getting away from that because of dx9 The one who posted in the thread I linked is a professional who was well involved in the game’s development. Don’t confuse professionals with marketing folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiviana.2650 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > > > > The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc. > > > > > > > > > > I think you misunderstand what DX actually does. > > > > > > > > Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato. DX9 will bottleneck every time on big groups, its single threaded! > > > > > > Actually DX12 has been garbage so far. The games that run well on DirectX 12 are limited (is there any?) and in the vast majority of titles it's superior performance wise to select the DirectX 11 version instead of 12. When selecting 12 there is a massive fps loss with no visual gain. Further, DX12 is only available on Windows 10. No, moving to DirectX 12 at its current state would be a terrible mistake (it could even make things worse instead of better). If there was a need to update, they should update to DirectX 11, wide support from the playerbase, and it WORKS, unlike DirectX 12 which only works in benchmarks and in theory. > > > > DX12 puts the effort on the developers instead of the driver since like vulcan it is a low level API. So if it runs worse than DX11 it is entirely the developers fault for being bad. > > Exactly why I said in theory (and benchmarks) dx12 wins over dx11, but in real game situations it almost always loses (badly if I may add), there is no hidden setting to make dx12 better than dx11, it's just not implemented properly by any game out there. Only Vulkan does what's advertised: giving performance boosts in real games. Well a major fact is dx12 is win 10 only. So for playable purpose dx11 would be the standard since people play this game on a potato, but even 11 would be an improvement over 9. Sadly i realize they wont ever change that this game will go to the end on dx9. And thats horrible for newer pcs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > > > > The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc. > > > > > > > > > > I think you misunderstand what DX actually does. > > > > > > > > Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato. > > > > > > Not all games are designed the same. > > > > > > Also: > > > > You know what never mind, ill stick to what the professionals say about single threaded DX9. The game is cpu bound no getting away from that because of dx9 > > The one who posted in the thread I linked is a professional who was well involved in the game’s development. Don’t confuse professionals with marketing folks. To post a part of the dev's post for anyone that doesn't want to read the link: > Which brings us to GW2. GW2 does a lot of processing, and much of it is done on the main thread. That is also where its bottleneck tends to be: The main thread. There are conscious efforts in moving things off the main thread and onto other threads (every now and then a patch goes out that does just this), but due to how multi-threading works it's a non-trivial thing that take a lot of effort to do. In a perfect world, we could say "Hey main thread, give the other threads some stuff to do if you're too busy", but sadly this is not that world. Meaning, the problem in GW2 is the main thread and the main thread has nothing to do with the version of DirectX. DirectX affects the Render thread, which isn't the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiviana.2650 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > > > > > The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think you misunderstand what DX actually does. > > > > > > > > > > Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato. > > > > > > > > Not all games are designed the same. > > > > > > > > Also: > > > > > > You know what never mind, ill stick to what the professionals say about single threaded DX9. The game is cpu bound no getting away from that because of dx9 > > > > The one who posted in the thread I linked is a professional who was well involved in the game’s development. Don’t confuse professionals with marketing folks. > > To post a part of the dev's post for anyone that doesn't want to read the link: > > > Which brings us to GW2. GW2 does a lot of processing, and much of it is done on the main thread. That is also where its bottleneck tends to be: The main thread. There are conscious efforts in moving things off the main thread and onto other threads (every now and then a patch goes out that does just this), but due to how multi-threading works it's a non-trivial thing that take a lot of effort to do. In a perfect world, we could say "Hey main thread, give the other threads some stuff to do if you're too busy", but sadly this is not that world. > > Meaning, the problem in GW2 is the main thread and the main thread has nothing to do with the version of DirectX. DirectX affects the Render thread, which isn't the problem. You know why they run dx9? because at the time many cheap pcs could run the game. Thats not the case anymore and win xp vista and 8 are memories, win 7 will go the way of the dodo next year. So all that will be left are people on win 10 or holdouts risking everything to use a version thats obsolete. Then they will upgrade their engine, because win 10 kittens all over it. That or they will lose players because the performance of the game will suck. 9 has been obsolete for a looong time , and its the worst dx with no multi core/thread support. This was their stance back in 2012 when dx9 was still standard , we have come a long way since then https://www.facebook.com/GuildWars2/photos/for-those-of-you-who-have-been-asking-about-dx11-support-for-guild-wars-2-our-go/10151048222709209/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said: > > > > > > > The engine is old and it shows even on new rigs. If they did a new expansion they would need a new engine because this one isnt optimized and performs badly. I mean how old is dx9 now? 2002? Even wow that behemoth of a game 14 years old has been updated to dx12, framerates are smoother , the pc runs easier and it looks better with a higher dx. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another thing is graphic clutter, it has been said time and again there is too much visual noise in combat. > > > > > > > > > > > > They would not need a new engine if doing a new expansion. A higher DX will not provide the improvement that you’re expecting. > > > > > > > > > > I think you underestimate the difference going from dx9 to dx12 can make on a pc. > > > > > > > > I think you misunderstand what DX actually does. > > > > > > Seriously? you know they have people that benchmark these things, and all the testing has shown a serious performance improvement in dx12 over 9. 9 is a dinosaur that chokes the cpu, 12 puts the onus on the graphic card where it should be. 12 plays better with your pc, unless you own a potato. > > > > Not all games are designed the same. > > > > Also: > > You know what never mind, ill stick to what the professionals say about single threaded DX9. The game is cpu bound no getting away from that because of dx9 Meanwhile a random nobody can simulate the game running on dx12 or w/e and provide more meaningful performance improvements than any of the updates gw2 has done to performance over the years. But naaah, not worth investing in that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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