Discussion Thread: ArenaNet News of 21 February 2019 [Merged]

[Healix.5819]

In short, they had hired people to work on other projects, and had also taken a lot of resources away from GW2. There is now more people working on GW2 because of the layoffs.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Healix.5819" said:

> In short, they had hired people to work on other projects,

True

> and had also taken a lot of resources away from GW2.

We don't know that. People who are in a position to confirm the funding source never posted about it. The reports we had where from people who saw particular individuals moved from one project (e.g. GW2) to another. We can't tell whether the person was allocated for GW2 and was borrowed for Project X or was allocated for X and lent to GW2.

 

> There is now more people working on GW2 because of the layoffs.

Again, we don't know that for sure.

 

What we can say with certainty is that everyone working at ANet now is allocated in full towards GW2. That's certainly beneficial for the game. We can say with near-certainty that losing 143 (especially some with institutional knowledge, some with special skills) is devastating on morale and undermined critical systems, day-to-day operations, and disrupts long-term planning.

 

We don't know if this will ultimately benefit ANet (focus is always good) or hurt it (putting all eggs in one game's basket is risky).

 

 

[Trise.2865]

Why not [find out for yourself](https://www.arena.net/en/careers "find out for yourself")?

[zealex.9410]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"Healix.5819" said:

> > In short, they had hired people to work on other projects,

> True

 

Not entirely, we very much had ppl fired that have been working on gw2.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > @"Healix.5819" said:

> > > In short, they had hired people to work on other projects,

> > True

>

> Not entirely, we very much had ppl fired that have been working on gw2.

 

As phrased, the statement was entirely true: they had hired people to work on other projects.

 

We have no idea what the mix was of the 143 who left or the 250+ (estimated) who remained, in large part because people were allowed to choose whether to leave before ANet was forced to decide. For example, @"Gaile Gray.6029" and @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" both said (publicly) that they choose to leave, with GG specifically mentioning giving those with less seniority a chance to remain.

 

We really don't know as much as we think we do about what happened.

[Healix.5819]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> We don't know that. People who are in a position to confirm the funding source never posted about it. The reports we had where from people who saw particular people moved from one project (e.g. GW2) to another. We can't tell whether the person was allocated for GW2 and was borrowed for Project X or was allocated for X and lent to GW2.

 

It's the most likely scenario. Prior to all of this, they said the plan was for the living world to release expansion level stories and features over the next few years, implying there wouldn't be an expansion. The only way they wouldn't do an expansion is if they were working on a new game, since anything else would be a huge loss. The numbers simply haven't been adding up for a while now, and the simple question is, where is the expansion team? If they were still working on an expansion, then it should be at least 3x the size of PoF by the end of season 5, so whether or not they actually had the majority working on other projects will be confirmed then.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Healix.5819" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > We don't know that. People who are in a position to confirm the funding source never posted about it. The reports we had where from people who saw particular people moved from one project (e.g. GW2) to another. We can't tell whether the person was allocated for GW2 and was borrowed for Project X or was allocated for X and lent to GW2.

>

> It's the most likely scenario.

It's not.

There are lots of plausible scenarios and we have no data to even help us guess.

 

I've been in a parallel situation: working for a privately owned firm owned by a major multinational, whose stockholders got nervous, forcing CEOs to shred costs to keep their jobs. Projects that were on track to _save_ huge sums "next year" were cancelled, in favor of ones delivering smaller profits "this year." We moved people around regularly, to where they were most helpful and some top talent was let go because their funding came from a cancellation, regardless of what they were actually working on.

 

The rest of your post is completely _plausible_, just like any of another dozen scenarios. Unfortunately, we only have information from people who are unlikely to have been intimate with budgets: they saw the people moved around; they only know the obvious explanation (they were diverted to the "other" thing), when there are plenty of other reasons management has (good ones and bad ones, too).

 

I wouldn't be shocked to find out that your theory turned out to be true. All the same, no one one should be surprised if it turned out otherwise, too.

 

The main point I'm making is:

We don't know much. We know the exact number laid off officially; we don't even know how many remained.

 

 

[Firebeard.1746]

Seriously? I was super stoked when I heard Arenanet was starting a new MMO a year or so ago, even though I hadn't been on GW2 for a while, because I really like Arenanet. I bet tons of players would have come out of the woodwork to contribute if you asked for funding for your new project & the current development. And I bet tons of active players would have contributed as well if you just let them know that you were in dire straits.

 

Also, I'm super sad we lost Josh Foreman. Wasn't he the brain behind SAB? Like you guys NEVER should have fired him. I'm sad SAB will never get finished...

 

Also, losing the next MMO project may be a nail in the coffin of Arena net. Game companies need to innovate and push new content if they want their revenue to grow. Yes, it's painful when you're taking that initial development cost hit, but those costs are necessary for the long-term health of your company and the games you release.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

"Fundraising" for a business is called, "selling product." And they sold plenty. (Whether plenty enough or not... we don't have the data.)

 

The problem is: they aren't masters of their own destiny. They are part of the NCSOFT corporation and that firm's stockholders have higher expectations for profits than NCSOFT can deliver. So NCSOFT has to shred costs fast. The easiest way to do that is to cancel projects of subsidiaries and reduce staff. It's quick, even if it's not always the best for long term health.

 

Other than that, we don't know which projects or why. They could have been on target with implementation scheduled for 2 years out and that would be too long for NCSOFT. They could have been late to meet targets. They could have been abject failures. They might even have been projects that NCSOFT demanded (e.g. a mobile project, whereas ANet might have done SAB/stand-alone or GW2 Polymock, if up to them alone).

 

And finally, ANet is a highly successful business, making games for over 10 years, and including an innovative MMO. I gather some players think they know better what ANet should do to stay successful. I'm content to let them keep on keeping on.

[Firebeard.1746]

Are you the least bit worried that NCsoft may be hampering ANet from doing their thing? I think that's one of my underlying feelings.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> Are you the least bit worried that NCsoft may be hampering ANet from doing their thing? I think that's one of my underlying feelings.

 

I know they are hampering ANet. That's their job: they supply money and resources; they get to offer suggestions or make demands. Whether that turns out for the best... I have no opinion because I don't have any data on which to base one.

 

And even if I did, there's nothing that we can do that will change the relationship. Unless you think that a bunch of fans can come up with enough money to buy ANet from NCSOFT. And assuming we could, and assuming they are willing to sell... well, our money might be spent better on other things anyhow, even assuming we all agreed.

 

Put another way, even the people who live in California that worry about earthquakes can't do anything about them. At best, they can prepare for the worst.

[derd.6413]

because the layoffs were about cutting spending, not increasing income

[Randulf.7614]

Who said they were starting a new mmo?

[gateless gate.8406]

1. No one knows they were working on an MMO. It may have been an MMO. It may also have been a mobile game stuffed full of MTX.

2. Sometimes artists need a firm hand to produce great things. The concepts of order, limits, planning, and boundaries are the weak points of artistic mindsets. ANet had 400 employees (bigger than many "AAA" developers) for years yet had nothing to present to the world, and their flagship MMO was getting drip-fed content. Additionally, in the wake of the layoffs, some of the employees revealed that ANet's work culture was "unfocused." Clearly there were issues in the organization.

[Westenev.5289]

I'm not sure what people are up in arms about. This isn't like what Jagex did with Mech Scape, Transformers Universe and Funorb, where consumers had a running conceptual product that never came. Unless I missed a news bulletin, we know nothing beyond the fact it was a game being produced by Anet.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> The problem is: they aren't masters of their own destiny. They are part of the NCSOFT corporation and that firm's stockholders have higher expectations for profits than NCSOFT can deliver. So NCSOFT has to shred costs fast. The easiest way to do that is to cancel projects of subsidiaries and reduce staff. It's quick, even if it's not always the best for long term health.

 

 

What you described here is the main reason behind almost every gaming controversy over the past decade. Which is "suits" who don't come from a gaming background, dictating terms by spreadsheet on what still is an artistic endeavor. And the actual devs making the games are stuck in the middle, having to deflect the often justified "gamer outrage" for decisions that aren't really their own. Until we need to cut costs further and it's time to lay them off that is.

 

To return on topic though, mega-corps like NCsoft don't do fundraisers because they don't need them. They have investors for that who will be expecting their "fundraising" to be returning in their pockets tenfold. Until they find the next "trendy" industry and run to it instead, like happy little locusts.

 

If OP wants to support gaming through fundraising they need to look no further than the indie market. It is more active and varied than ever and your funds will actually go into the project you are interested in. If you are careful with your choice of course.

[Haishao.6851]

More fund would have just made them waste more money since the problem was with the management of those projects.

 

[MokahTGS.7850]

Because it wasn't their decision. Anet is part of a bigger company, NCSoft. NCSoft made the call.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Haishao.6851" said:

> More fund would have just made them waste more money since the problem was with the management of those projects.

>

 

We don't know if the projects were well or poorly managed; we only know that NCSOFT cancelled them to save money.

In the several such 'purges' I've experienced, hardly any of the decisions from the owning company had anything to do with efficiency or mid-term profits (let along long-term viability). The primary reason was always to cut spending in time for the next quarterly report.

[Healix.5819]

They would need to talk about what they were developing if they wanted people to help fund it, and doing that would threaten GW2.

 

> @"gateless gate.8406" said:

> 1. No one knows they were working on an MMO. It may have been an MMO. It may also have been a mobile game stuffed full of MTX.

 

It probably wasn't going to be an MMO like GW2, but rather an online game like GW1. It would have been easier that way, whereas another MMO this soon would directly compete with GW2, which would have only hurt both or killed GW2. It's unlikely that it was a mobile game considering how many people they had working on it, plus NCSoft was specifically wanting more mobile games, which is the worst part. NCSoft potentially pulled their investment because they no longer have faith in ArenaNet or western MMOs after Wildstar failed, and GW2 isn't exactly helping either.

 

> ANet had 400 employees (bigger than many "AAA" developers) for years yet had nothing to present to the world, and their flagship MMO was getting drip-fed content.

 

They had that many because they were specifically hiring for future projects over the last few years, and it takes that long to develop a new game. They're now back to the ~270 they launched GW2 with. They've always been wasting resources with nothing to show however, but that's also the cost of trying to be different rather than copying what works.

 

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> Who said they were starting a new mmo?

 

ArenaNet did. They were specifically hiring for "future projects" related to MMO development, or at least online gaming.

[Randulf.7614]

> @"Healix.5819" said:

> They would need to talk about what they were developing if they wanted people to help fund it, and doing that would threaten GW2.

>

> > @"gateless gate.8406" said:

> > 1. No one knows they were working on an MMO. It may have been an MMO. It may also have been a mobile game stuffed full of MTX.

>

> It probably wasn't going to be an MMO like GW2, but rather an online game like GW1. It would have been easier that way, whereas another MMO this soon would directly compete with GW2, which would have only hurt both or killed GW2. It's unlikely that it was a mobile game considering how many people they had working on it, plus NCSoft was specifically wanting more mobile games, which is the worst part. NCSoft potentially pulled their investment because they no longer have faith in ArenaNet or western MMOs after Wildstar failed, and GW2 isn't exactly helping either.

>

> > ANet had 400 employees (bigger than many "AAA" developers) for years yet had nothing to present to the world, and their flagship MMO was getting drip-fed content.

>

> They had that many because they were specifically hiring for future projects over the last few years, and it takes that long to develop a new game. They're now back to the ~270 they launched GW2 with. They've always been wasting resources with nothing to show however, but that's also the cost of trying to be different rather than copying what works.

>

> > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > Who said they were starting a new mmo?

>

> ArenaNet did. They were specifically hiring for "future projects" related to MMO development, or at least online gaming.

 

Did they actually say they were making a new mmo? I know there was a lot of speculation regarding mobile projects, but I didn't see or read anythign specific to a brand new mmo

[Cobra.6509]

After making so much money with GW2 it will be a shame to ask for more money. Their incompetence throw those money away but still would be a shame to beg money. Anyway, fundraising bring a pay2win touch to a game. Such games comes out dead because only founders will play them.(see Shroud of Avatar or Star Citizen). Not founders players will not stand a chance against heavy payers.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> Did they actually say they were making a new mmo? I know there was a lot of speculation regarding mobile projects, but I didn't see or read anythign specific to a brand new mmo

They didn't say; it's speculation. (Reasonable speculation, sure, just not based on official comments.)

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

Not much is stopping you from "Frundraising" for ANET (E.g. go stream dropping 10k USD on gems or w.e.). Outside of using the trademarked logos I guess. You could Kickstart something too...

 

D:

[Healix.5819]

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> Did they actually say they were making a new mmo? I know there was a lot of speculation regarding mobile projects, but I didn't see or read anythign specific to a brand new mmo

 

Specifically? No. They'd never outright give any details, especially if it was an MMO, since that would only devastate GW2.

 

It's been known for several years now that they were planning on a new game based on their job listings. As for it being an MMO, last year they were looking for a server programmer, which mentioned building the core infrastructure for their next generation of games. That doesn't mean it was an MMO however, just that it would have an online component at the very least, which also applies to mobile games. It's very unlikely that it was just a mobile game however, based on the number of people they had and their prior job listings, plus NCSoft probably wouldn't have cancelled it since that's what they wanted.