HoT Hero Points are much harder than PoF??

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"Daddicus.6128" said:

> HoT (Heart of Thorns) was more difficult than any other content. A tiny minority of elite players wanted more difficulty. ANet listened to them, because they were very loud, despite being a small portion of players.

>

> It almost killed the game. ANet learned their lesson, and toned things down in PoF and LS Seasons 3 & 4. But, they haven't fixed the problem in HoT completely (yet).

 

And how many people keep coming back to HoT? How many continue to play on PoF maps?

 

‘Almost killed the game’ is a gross exaggeration.

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

> @"AlexxxDelta.1806" said:

> I admit it's more of a feeling than an exact count. I always try completing all HPs on a map before moving on and that probably contributes to HoT ones feeling more challenging overall. It's true than you can single out the soloable ones and still get your elite if that's your only goal.

The real problem isn't elite specs, honestly, it's map completion. You _have_ to deal with the overtuned garbage that are HoT hero points if you're doing that, even if you can weasel out of it while just unlocking an elite spec.

 

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> And how many people keep coming back to HoT? How many continue to play on PoF maps?

I hate to break it to you, but it isn't the _difficulty_ that attracts people to HoT.

 

(Spoilers: it's the wildly disproportionate rewards)

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > And how many people keep coming back to HoT? How many continue to play on PoF maps?

> I hate to break it to you, but it isn't the _difficulty_ that attracts people to HoT.

>

> (Spoilers: it's the wildly disproportionate rewards)

 

Never said that it was. Perhaps you should have addressed this to the person I had quoted instead?

[Rico.6873]

> @"Balsa.3951" said:

> HOT has real hero points anet dropped the ball in many aspects with sandbox POF I can’t remember one hero point in pof but I remember many in hot

 

The one in Crystal Oasis with the Three headed Hydra is pretty evil and tricky to solo

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > @"Daddicus.6128" said:

> > HoT (Heart of Thorns) was more difficult than any other content. A tiny minority of elite players wanted more difficulty. ANet listened to them, because they were very loud, despite being a small portion of players.

> >

> > It almost killed the game. ANet learned their lesson, and toned things down in PoF and LS Seasons 3 & 4. But, they haven't fixed the problem in HoT completely (yet).

>

> With the current elite specs, HoT is super easy, really.

Sure. For that tiny minority of players, that is. For an average player however, even now it's anything but easy.

[melandru.3876]

> @"Rico.6873" said:

> > @"Balsa.3951" said:

> > HOT has real hero points anet dropped the ball in many aspects with sandbox POF I can’t remember one hero point in pof but I remember many in hot

>

> The one in Crystal Oasis with the Three headed Hydra is pretty evil and tricky to solo

 

there is no hydra hero point in crystal oasis.

you probably mean the djinn one, where the hydra can somethimes patrol?

 

if you can't do that one solo, then you are up for a bad time in further pof

[Algreg.3629]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > > @"Daddicus.6128" said:

> > > HoT (Heart of Thorns) was more difficult than any other content. A tiny minority of elite players wanted more difficulty. ANet listened to them, because they were very loud, despite being a small portion of players.

> > >

> > > It almost killed the game. ANet learned their lesson, and toned things down in PoF and LS Seasons 3 & 4. But, they haven't fixed the problem in HoT completely (yet).

> >

> > With the current elite specs, HoT is super easy, really.

> Sure. For that tiny minority of players, that is. For an average player however, even now it's anything but easy.

 

For the average GW2 player, finding their way out of their living room is hard.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"AlexxxDelta.1806" said:

> It's true than you can single out the soloable ones and still get your elite if that's your only goal.

Getting the elite is the topic of the thread, therefore singling out the solable ones and ignoring the rest is a more accurate reflection of the situation.

 

****

Had the OP been talking about map completion, I would agree; 100% hero points in HoT is more challenging than in PoF, not the least because there are a third more HP to finish in HoT.

 

[ugrakarma.9416]

PoF are easy, but maps are huge and points spread, u have to travel a lot, even with all Mounts u will take a long time.

[Katastroff.1045]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Katastroff.1045" said:

> > Arent the ones in Dragon Stand mostly commune ones?

> Sure, but you can't get solo to most of them, because they're locked behind the big metaevent progress late stages. Map completion being locked behind meta was always one of the bigger complains about HoT.

>

 

Just go in and follow a meta group, you chop some pods, get some loot and your mastery points. You dont need to fight, all you need is about 2 hours of your time. DS gets done all the time, just like most HoT metas.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Algreg.3629" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > > > @"Daddicus.6128" said:

> > > > HoT (Heart of Thorns) was more difficult than any other content. A tiny minority of elite players wanted more difficulty. ANet listened to them, because they were very loud, despite being a small portion of players.

> > > >

> > > > It almost killed the game. ANet learned their lesson, and toned things down in PoF and LS Seasons 3 & 4. But, they haven't fixed the problem in HoT completely (yet).

> > >

> > > With the current elite specs, HoT is super easy, really.

> > Sure. For that tiny minority of players, that is. For an average player however, even now it's anything but easy.

>

> For the average GW2 player, finding their way out of their living room is hard.

Let's just keep painting everyone with broad brushes. I am probably below the average as a very casual player and I can find my way out of my living room just fine, thank. you. Perhaps offering to assist those average players with the more difficult content, rather than insulting them, would better serve the game and the community?

 

Many players I know are older and have other commitments in life (work, family) and cannot commit time to really learn to play GW2 with the efficiency and skill that you probably have. ANet, I believe, is well aware of this dynamic and continues to build their game in the manner which nets them the most profitability. The blow-back against HoT's release was very loud and ANet obviously saw potential losses in their revenue stream should they continue to make content at that level of complexity. Thus, the HoT nerf and the style of content that followed.

[Ayrilana.1396]

I wouldn’t relate time spent to personal skill but I agree that insults don’t really serve any purpose.

[Evil.1580]

> @"smashgodlight.6584" said:

> HoT is even harder than PoF

 

... **EVEN** harder!

POF is super easy. There is no challenge.

HOT is great expansion and its maps should be etalon for future content.

Most HOT HP are group events (because this is MMO and should stimulate group playing), so either join an HP train or make a game so people can join you

 

 

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> I wouldn’t relate time spent to personal skill but I agree that insults don’t really serve any purpose.

 

Skill is a function of ability and practice. Practice takes time, so there is definitely a relation between skill and time spent. Those who neither practice nor play enough to be able to activate skills via muscle memory are not likely to be as skilled as those who do.

 

I agree about insults.

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > I wouldn’t relate time spent to personal skill but I agree that insults don’t really serve any purpose.

>

> Skill is a function of ability and practice. Practice takes time, so there is definitely a relation between skill and time spent. Those who neither practice nor play enough to be able to activate skills via muscle memory are not likely to be as skilled as those who do.

>

> I agree about insults.

 

People don’t learn at the same pace. Someone could learn something in an hour and another person could take 10 hours. That’s what I was getting at.

 

The post was in response to the post above it if that provides context.

[Ashantara.8731]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > With the current elite specs, HoT is super easy, really.

> Sure. For that tiny minority of players, that is. For an average player however, even now it's anything but easy.

 

Hmm, I don't know why you think that the people who have mastered the game's basic mechanics and have also gotten decent equipment to support their DPS are "the minority." Am I only playing with "the minority" in each game mode, when about 50% of the people I play with do decent damage and avoid chain-dying? I am talking about people that are _not_ on my friends list nor in my guild but whom I run into every day while doing events of all kinds (I am not talking about the "raid elite" here but generic PvE metas as well as the random Champions "along the road", or the people I group up with in WvW). I don't think that all casual players are automatically to be considered bad players.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > > With the current elite specs, HoT is super easy, really.

> > Sure. For that tiny minority of players, that is. For an average player however, even now it's anything but easy.

>

> Hmm, I don't know why you think that the people who have mastered the game's basic mechanics and have also gotten decent equipment to support their DPS are "the minority."

Because we are. Just look at the dps values of an open wold squad - you will have 2-4 people at the top with decent dps values(10k+), 2-3 with dps at the 6k range, and then 40 people with 4k and _below_. **That** is the majority.

 

Remember, when at the time Marionette was released Anet said something to the effect that a third of players do not ever dodge, and half of them do not change traits after they've done initial setting during the leveling (with a significant number not doing even that)? I suppose that the situation _has_ improved since then, but i would be deluding myself if i thought that was a hugely significant change.

 

> Am I only playing with "the minority" in each game mode, when about 50% of the people I play with do decent damage and avoid chain-dying?

50%? Yes. Definitely (well, depending on what you consider decent dps, of course).

 

> I don't think that all casual players are automatically to be considered bad players.

Casual doesn't automatically mean bad. There's quie a lot of very skilled casuals. Still, the skill level of an average casual is much lower than you think it is. You simply do not see it, because you happen to associate with people that are more active/more skilled than that average. Perhaps it's the content you run, i don't know, but observation bias does seem to apply here.

 

 

 

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > I wouldn’t relate time spent to personal skill but I agree that insults don’t really serve any purpose.

> >

> > Skill is a function of ability and practice. Practice takes time, so there is definitely a relation between skill and time spent. Those who neither practice nor play enough to be able to activate skills via muscle memory are not likely to be as skilled as those who do.

> >

> > I agree about insults.

>

> People don’t learn at the same pace. Someone could learn something in an hour and another person could take 10 hours. That’s what I was getting at.

>

> The post was in response to the post above it if that provides context.

 

I assumed you were referring to @"kharmin.7683".

 

So, what you meant is that we cannot necessarily correlate time spent learning with level of skill due to learning rate differentials between players? If so, I agree.

 

What I was referring to is that _given similar learning rates_, people who spend more time playing effectively will be more skilled than those who play less -- or at least will become skilled sooner in real time. I apologize if that was not clear. I usually assume that if I am evaluating the effect of one factor on something (performance, in this case), then I consider that other factors would be the same in test cases.

 

Then, there's the fact that playing habits can consist of random button pushes, or "use skill when off CD," neither of which is conducive to developing effective skill use via reaction and muscle memory. There's also issues of willingness/desire to improve, or player mindset (I play to unwind from work, not to master the game). None of that is necessarily related to time playing. However, I'd be surprised if the percentage of relatively unskilled play was not significantly lower among dedicated or hobbyist players than among "when time allows" players.

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > > I wouldn’t relate time spent to personal skill but I agree that insults don’t really serve any purpose.

> > >

> > > Skill is a function of ability and practice. Practice takes time, so there is definitely a relation between skill and time spent. Those who neither practice nor play enough to be able to activate skills via muscle memory are not likely to be as skilled as those who do.

> > >

> > > I agree about insults.

> >

> > People don’t learn at the same pace. Someone could learn something in an hour and another person could take 10 hours. That’s what I was getting at.

> >

> > The post was in response to the post above it if that provides context.

>

> I assumed you were referring to @"kharmin.7683".

>

> So, what you meant is that we cannot necessarily correlate time spent learning with level of skill due to learning rate differentials between players? If so, I agree.

>

> What I was referring to is that _given similar learning rates_, people who spend more time playing effectively will be more skilled than those who play less -- or at least will become skilled sooner in real time. I apologize if that was not clear. I usually assume that if I am evaluating the effect of one factor on something (performance, in this case), then I consider that other factors would be the same in test cases.

>

> Then, there's the fact that playing habits can consist of random button pushes, or "use skill when off CD," neither of which is conducive to developing effective skill use via reaction and muscle memory. There's also issues of willingness/desire to improve, or player mindset (I play to unwind from work, not to master the game). None of that is necessarily related to time playing. However, I'd be surprised if the percentage of relatively unskilled play was not significantly lower among dedicated or hobbyist players than among "when time allows" players.

 

There is correlation but it’s not entirely based on time. I just didn’t agree with them using the reason of players not having enough time in the game due to real world commitments, or their age, as to why they cannot learn the game mechanics. Many people are able to; it’s just how much effort they’re willing to put into it with the time they have to play.

[Katastroff.1045]

The complete tutorial on how to survive in HoT is here:

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dodge_Instructor

:p

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

 

> There is correlation but it’s not entirely based on time. I just didn’t agree with them using the reason of players not having enough time in the game due to real world commitments, or their age, as to why they cannot learn the game mechanics. Many people are able to; it’s just how much effort they’re willing to put into it with the time they have to play.

Then we'll just have to disagree. :) Many people ARE able to; many are not. Sure, I could really commit to learning to fly a plane, but I won't get good in a short period of time by studying how to fly a plane for an hour or so each week while managing other real life obligations. Yes, for GW2 I am very casual and I know my limitations will disallow me from certain content, and I'm fine with that. What I'm not fine with is the expectation that players NEED to have a certain level of proficiency (which IMO can only come about with a solid commitment of time and effort) and if not, they are despised, looked down upon and insulted. That's how I took the living room comment.

[Einlanzer.1627]

I've never really sorted out my feelings on this. On the one hand, I like the idea of an MMO actually taking steps to incentivize grouping for the best rewards. On the other hand, "grouping" in GW2 is generally just joining a zerg train and obliterating everything in your path as opposed to tackling challenges strategically as a small group.

 

This removes a lot of the point and makes me just want stuff to be soloable. Ultimately, it's probably good that HoT and PoF both offer something a bit different from one another. Although I still think they need to fix mob density and aggro range a bit in PoF.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> "grouping" in GW2 is generally just joining a zerg train and obliterating everything in your path as opposed to tackling challenges strategically as a small group.

 

You can choose to zerg; I've never found that to be much fun, so I choose not to.

 

Generally, I go around to hero challenges solo and as I approach those I struggle with (or that I know other people struggle with), I announce in /map (along with instructions for reaching) and wait a few minutes for people to reach the location. Mostly, that means 3-4 people join in the festivities, occasionally just 2, rarely more than 5, and it's very rare that no one shows up (and that's usually because there's something else going on or it's Sunday 3 am ANet time and not that many people have insomnia that bad).

 

In other words, those who want to tackle challenges as a small group can do so and those who want EZ mode have that option, too.

[Dayra.7405]

If you cannot solo them others cannot either. So there is an easy solution: turn on you apple (or commander) and write in map-chat: someone interested for HP at tag near (shift-clicked map marker) Currently maps are quite well filled and this does need long. It could even be the start on an HP-train.

 

In general: for both elite you don’t need them all (only for map completion), my main has 404 HPs left over.

 

Edit: oh, I should look more at the dates :)

[KidRoleplay.3615]

> @"Anhellbro.7210" said:

> you can only cry? maybe you shold change the game? i have anather sugjestion - do PoF Point hard like HoT.

 

Did... did you really just bump a thread inactive for four months just to behave like that?