I feel particularly bad for Guild Wars 2 Devs / ArenaNet

[bbop.9706]

I agree with the OP 100%. I too feel sad for the future of the game and the devs.

 

I love the game and as a newer player i still have masses to do, and hundreds of hours of content ahead of me..

 

BUT.. Do i want to invest time and money on a game with an unclear future? If i know that at the end of my journey to clear the content, that an expansion is waiting for me I'd willingly invest the time and even spend some money along the way on gemstore etc.

 

But this announcement gives me no hope of that and I for one will not put another penny into this game. The merch drive of late is an utterly lauaghable, shameless, desperate attempt to milk money from a loyal fanbase who want real content snd hope, not t-shirts and toys.

 

I have have no motivation to play at this point, and i know a large percentage of us feel this way.

[FrigginPaco.4178]

I just wish they could communicate what's really on their mind/what's happening. It feels like Poppa NCsoft is putting the squeeze on em and I... just don't know what people expected.

[Dragon Priestess.9760]

> @"FrigginPaco.4178" said:

> I just wish they could communicate what's really on their mind/what's happening. It feels like Poppa NCsoft is putting the squeeze on em and I... just don't know what people expected.

 

It's because NCsoft is there that they can't say anything. They are trapped.

[FrigginPaco.4178]

> @"Dragon Priestess.9760" said:

> > @"FrigginPaco.4178" said:

> > I just wish they could communicate what's really on their mind/what's happening. It feels like Poppa NCsoft is putting the squeeze on em and I... just don't know what people expected.

>

> It's because NCsoft is there that they can't say anything. They are trapped.

 

Yeah, that much has been clear since the squeeze in February... Today was just the culmination of that into a very ugly portrait of what it means to be under their corporate heel. Very disheartening, and they do have my sympathy where that is concerned for sure.

[Rukario.1695]

> @"Thornwolf.9721" said:

> I feel this could of been mitigated had the hype not been amped so hard by the month prior.

 

Hence my points of transparency and frequent communication. If it was communicated well that it would not be an expansion release (nor any hints,) or plans for Elite Specializations, then I believe most of this would have been mitigated. Also, if they would have established that WvW/PvP would not be a focus point.

[Mortifera.6138]

> @"Dragon Priestess.9760" said:

> > @"FrigginPaco.4178" said:

> > I just wish they could communicate what's really on their mind/what's happening. It feels like Poppa NCsoft is putting the squeeze on em and I... just don't know what people expected.

>

> It's because NCsoft is there that they can't say anything. They are trapped.

 

Yeah, it’s a conspiracy. :rollseyes:

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @"Rukario.1695" said:

> > @"Thornwolf.9721" said:

> > I feel this could of been mitigated had the hype not been amped so hard by the month prior.

>

> Hence my points of transparency and frequent communication. If it was communicated well that it would not be an expansion release (nor any hints,)

 

I mean they have been saying for a long while they have no plans for an expansion and they did specifically say numerous times this was to announce the new episode. There was no reason to expect anything more.

 

 

[Rukario.1695]

> @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > @"Rukario.1695" said:

> > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said:

> > > I feel this could of been mitigated had the hype not been amped so hard by the month prior.

> >

> > Hence my points of transparency and frequent communication. If it was communicated well that it would not be an expansion release (nor any hints,)

>

> I mean they have been saying for a long while they have no plans for an expansion and they did specifically say numerous times this was to announce the new episode. There was no reason to expect anything more.

>

>

 

Whereas I generally agree with you, it should be known that any time you have the ability to clarify on something, that opportunity should be taken. The entire audience isn't always present at all times. Information gets passed around and people create their own assumptions and then believe them, then pass them on; suddenly the source which said something isn't going to happen, apparently is going to happen.

 

Basically, even if you covered it before, it's considered old information after awhile and you need to reiterate on it when possible. This is why a public plan of action would be a very good way to omit further speculation and raised hopes; that is, if they are actually planning stuff ahead of time. If they are going with the flow then there may be nothing to show... and this would just result in further chaotic disorder as players would feel they'll be wasting their time if the game shuts down.

 

Even if there are no current works in progress (obviously there are, at least for now,) a roadmap or something like it, even if a WIP / Temporary / Not Final version of it would cease a lot of the unrest here.

[SuwanHime.7685]

 

I'm afraid it's partially a matter like described in this video about the gaming industry. Arenanet's name even gets shown on the presentation when they talk about lay-offs being a regular thing now in the gaming industry.

[draxynnic.3719]

Frankly, to me it feels like what's happened is that booking the hall was something they had to do months in advance, and they'd intended to announce one of more of the cancelled projects there. When the project(s) got cancelled, though, they had to make lemonade with what they did have.

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @"Rukario.1695" said:

> Even if there are no current works in progress (obviously there are, at least for now,) a roadmap or something like it, even if a WIP / Temporary / Not Final version of it would cease a lot of the unrest here.

 

They did this before and it caused more unrest when they had to change plans and cancel things in the works. People accused them of lying and such, which is why we now don't hear about something until its near enough done/a certain addition. There is a lot of detriment in it as well as putting time scales on anything. Consumers are very unforgiving and don't handle unexpected circumstances/ changes in direction well...at all.

 

[MachineManXX.9746]

> @"SuwanHime.7685" said:

>

>

> I'm afraid it's partially a matter like described in this video about the gaming industry. Arenanet's name even gets shown on the presentation when they talk about lay-offs being a regular thing now in the gaming industry.

 

This was a very interesting video, pretty eye opening. I'm pretty sure the devs are working their butts off and would love to provide us the best game possible. I'm also pretty sure they do not get the support they need from above to make that happen.

[Thalimae.3406]

> @"Tiviana.2650" said:

> So the takeaway today is there is not going to be an expansion not even in the future. How do you run a game and not have people working on future content everyday? Laying the framework, creating the systems. That should be part of being a game company. Many companies start working on future content 2 years prior to it releasing, or in simple terms they start as soon as an expansion goes live. They could have been creating the expansion from the time pof dropped, thats part of keeping a game going.

 

If people would stop with this "no content" nonsense it wouldn't be a moment too soon. Why are people reacting as if everyone at Anet's HQ is sitting around just twiddling their thumbs?!? They are constantly working on future content every day - with 4 fully staffed teams even as we heard yesterday. They just release it as Living World instead of a classic expansion. I mean, sure, so far the expansions gave us some game changers like e-specs, masteries and mounts - but beyond that? LW delivers just about the same content in form of story, maps, weapon and armour sets, and it even expands on the masteries and gives us new mounts and whatnot. Just because parts of the community arbitrary decided that this is somehow "no content" doesn't make it true.

[DonArkanio.6419]

> @"plushiesoda.8150" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > Id rather pay for expansions tbh. Shadowbrongers is everything right with expansions.

>

> Expansion is just a name, you totally missed the point of my wall of text :'(

>

>

 

I really didn't like the fact that Dev said - _Hey, you can get this all for free!_ - This makes me mad.

 

It proves that the content they are about to give us, holds no value at all. Gems aren't content.

What if I don't buy Gems? Does it mean I am not paying for what they are doing? Yes.

 

The direction they are taking with the GemStore is just pure evil for me.

 

**I'd rather pay for the good content, than get the mediocre content for free.**

[plushiesoda.8150]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

 

> Expansion is a term which is known industry wide and from outside the MMORPG space. It stands for: expanding on this game with content, most often.

>

> Expansions create buzz and when ever one launches for existing IPs, news and media make note and for a brief moment focus their attention on this release. Living World Seasons, now Saga, do not do that. No player outside the GW2 playerbase will have any clue what Season stands for (or even take note of one being released), at best they will be able to assume. Former GW2 players who are on break or have left the game completely are very unlikely to get swayed by a DLC like content drop.

>

> Yes, Seasons/Sagas can potentially deliver the same content as expansions, but that content will reach the existing active player base only. It will draw almost no new blood or return old blood. There is a reason why most other MMORPGS release both: expansions and episodic content. Just look at how much attention FF14 Shadowbringers has gained media wise, now compare that to how much attention LWS4 Episode 6 saw.

>

 

That's exactly what I mean when I said **"_Sadly greedy companies like Activision and EA have pushed this 'DLC/expansion/season pass' mentality into 'gamers' for content._"** and specified expansions 'in mmorgs games', describing them as **"_coined by greed in order to give a temporary boost to the player base_"**

 

Which is pretty much what you described, and I completely agree, it's a reality that has established it's way into the mob mentality. Quoting a certain tv show's famous meme "but the hat is new"

 

People can easily be swayed by brand-advertisement, **That's why WESTERN MARKET uses such term, despite it's unpopularity in the asian market**, it works, drags people in and gives a temporary boost to the game before stabilizing again.

 

Then again **that's why I described a series of conditions that should be aimed before stating** _"There wouldn't be any need for expansions. What's more! I would rather pay 1000 gems for feature-rich living world chapters instead of a whole expansion."_

 

Huge drops of content are not exactly what a game needs to drag people in, even if they're part of a different genre, games like League of Legends & Fortnite have more than demonstrated that point.

 

What anet truly needs are a competent marketing team and transparency as a MMORPG company, while I recognize that their business model and aims cannot be measured against each other, there's so much, just so much Anet could learn from the likes of Blizzard or Riot.

 

Whether that's idiotic or not, it remains to be seen, but odds are in favor of progressive thinking, not stagnating templates and while I don't really know their numbers at the moment and I personally don't play these games, but I'm pretty sure that Anet's current profits and player base are marginal when compared to LoL, Fortnite, PUBG, Counter strike, etc. Games that follow a developing roadway similar to what I previously described. I realize that they're completely different genres and a great part of their success is related to a bunch of different factors, but still valid examples of the potential behind such ideas, something that ain't really that new to begin with as the asian marked has been doing it before WoW was even a thing.

 

Between living world releases, many people just log in, complete the chapter in a couple of hours, get their new (probably time-gated) shiny and drop the game again. would an expansion make any difference? perhaps, no... there's no doubt it would make a huge difference, however it's a matter of time before things settle down repeating the cycle over and over again until population drops to a point where the game is not profitable enough to keep updating outside gem store skins or temporal FoTm adjustments in order to force people to change their mains.

 

Meanwhile we have games with declining popularity like ESO or Star wars ToR, that have released so many expansions in such a stupid manner that players are pretty much enforced into paying subscription-like fees in order to enjoy the game without spending hundreds of bucks.

 

I'm not stating that the decline of MMORPG's popularity and stagnation in the western market are due the existence of expansions, but it wouldn't be too far fetched to claim that they're not something completely unrelated.

 

 

 

 

[plushiesoda.8150]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

 

> Idk,i like meaty content i can sink my teeth into and not be done after 2 or 3 hours.

>

 

Cannot disagree with that xP

 

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"plushiesoda.8150" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

>

> > Expansion is a term which is known industry wide and from outside the MMORPG space. It stands for: expanding on this game with content, most often.

> >

> > Expansions create buzz and when ever one launches for existing IPs, news and media make note and for a brief moment focus their attention on this release. Living World Seasons, now Saga, do not do that. No player outside the GW2 playerbase will have any clue what Season stands for (or even take note of one being released), at best they will be able to assume. Former GW2 players who are on break or have left the game completely are very unlikely to get swayed by a DLC like content drop.

> >

> > Yes, Seasons/Sagas can potentially deliver the same content as expansions, but that content will reach the existing active player base only. It will draw almost no new blood or return old blood. There is a reason why most other MMORPGS release both: expansions and episodic content. Just look at how much attention FF14 Shadowbringers has gained media wise, now compare that to how much attention LWS4 Episode 6 saw.

> >

>

> That's exactly what I mean when I said **"_Sadly greedy companies like Activision and EA have pushed this 'DLC/expansion/season pass' mentality into 'gamers' for content._"** and specified expansions 'in mmorgs games', describing them as **"_coined by greed in order to give a temporary boost to the player base_"**

>

> Which is pretty much what you described, and I completely agree, it's a reality that has established it's way into the mob mentality. Quoting a certain tv show's famous meme "but the hat is new"

>

> People can easily be swayed by brand-advertisement, **That's why WESTERN MARKET uses such term, despite it's unpopularity in the asian market**, it works, drags people in and gives a temporary boost to the game before stabilizing again.

>

> Then again **that's why I described a series of conditions that should be aimed before stating** _"There wouldn't be any need for expansions. What's more! I would rather pay 1000 gems for feature-rich living world chapters instead of a whole expansion."_

>

> Huge drops of content are not exactly what a game needs to drag people in, even if they're part of a different genre, games like League of Legends & Fortnite have more than demonstrated that point.

>

> What anet truly needs are a competent marketing team and transparency as a MMORPG company, while I recognize that their business model and aims cannot be measured against each other, there's so much, just so much Anet could learn from the likes of Blizzard or Riot.

>

> Whether that's idiotic or not, it remains to be seen, but odds are in favor of progressive thinking, not stagnating templates and while I don't really know their numbers at the moment and I personally don't play these games, but I'm pretty sure that Anet's current profits and player base are marginal when compared to LoL, Fortnite, PUBG, Counter strike, etc. Games that follow a developing roadway similar to what I previously described. I realize that they're completely different genres and a great part of their success is related to a bunch of different factors, but still valid examples of the potential behind such ideas, something that ain't really that new to begin with as the asian marked has been doing it before WoW was even a thing.

>

> Between living world releases, many people just log in, complete the chapter in a couple of hours, get their new (probably time-gated) shiny and drop the game again. would an expansion make any difference? perhaps, no... there's no doubt it would make a huge difference, however it's a matter of time before things settle down repeating the cycle over and over again until population drops to a point where the game is not profitable enough to keep updating outside gem store skins or temporal FoTm adjustments in order to force people to change their mains.

>

> Meanwhile we have games with declining popularity like ESO or Star wars ToR, that have released so many expansions in such a stupid manner that players are pretty much enforced into paying subscription-like fees in order to enjoy the game without spending hundreds of bucks.

>

> I'm not stating that the decline of MMORPG's popularity and stagnation in the western market are due the existence of expansions, but it wouldn't be too far fetched to claim that they're not something completely unrelated.

>

 

Actually, expansions were a thing way before periodic or seasonal content was even a concept. I can think back to the pre internet era where expansions where the only way how games would receive additional content (EDIT: and even in the early days of consumer internet pre broadband thus in the early shoes of online multiplayer).

 

It used to be:

game -> possible expansion -> game 2

 

The entire liveservice and seasonal adaptation is a way more recent developement and is most often a lot more aggressive monetization wise.

 

Expansions are used in single player games, multiplayer games and MMOs to drop big content upgrades and create hype. This is not new, it's not a cash grab, it's always been a way to expand your game. DLC and smaller sized content chunks to keep people occupied are the recent developement which is used as an excuse to keep milking people.

 

So again, I completely disagree with your assessment of the terms since it does not correlate with historic video game developement.

 

As to your assumption about expansions and the MMORPG decline. Most other MMORPGs are doing just fine with expansions, no matter if the western or asian market. I'm not seeing it. That's just you throwing out a random theory which I don't see supported in any data and given how popular and positive people react to well made expansions, beyond far fetched.

[Shortage.5427]

No one should feel bad for ArenaNet, since they brought this upon themselves. They made this big event/reveal hyped it a month prior and had a stream to hype the crow for 48 hours. All of this for a Living Story Episode and barely scraps of information about WvW, Raids, Fractals and Dungeons. The amount that does said content is far superior in numbers than those who log in for 2 hours max every two months to play the Episode, buy some gem store shenanigans and then back to whatever indie tittle they'd play next. Those who stay and play daily are those who do WvW, PVP, Raids and Fractals. Dungeon content is dead, since there hasn't been an update for over 4 years now. ArenaNet is catering content to the minority and to those that leave the least bit of money into the game.

[Kaleygh.1524]

It feels like the future of Gw2 is not clear. Will there be more expansions ? More races ? Racial skills that actually matter ? More classes ? Or just the same old LS with a heavy focus on the gemstore ? As a player i do not want to invest time and money in a game when i have no clue where the game is going in the future. I would rather have expansions rather than LS to be honest. Also, hyping the announcement, renting a whole theater, saying you have something big coming in one month, and getting something that could have fit in a blog post, is really disappointing. We need information Anet, and right now your devs are not communicating with us concerning the future. I got my friends hyped about the announcement, hoping to get them into the game, and i was really sad to see that most of them were left rather confused about the game after your presentation.

[Iozeph.5617]

> @"ChronoPinoyX.7923" said:

> > @"Substance E.4852" said:

> > > @"Tiviana.2650" said:

> > > Anet was always under company rule since the day ncsoft bought them.

> >

> > Which is literally before GW1 even came out.

> >

> > NCsoft is a boogieman people invoke to absolve Anet of poor decision making

> >

> > Guild Wars is not City of Heroes

>

> ANet didn't decide to sack and move people around mid development of certain things to start failed projects. It was NCSoft, who were trying to be Blizzard with stuff like MxM when they know they can't compete.

>

> Calling NCSoft a boogieman is far too much of a compliment when they themselves killed off GW2's development by killing their resources.

 

No, but as many above have stated before and as Anet will tell you over and over that while being a subsidiary of NC they are/were autonomous. Instead of using that power and their resources to iron out the flaws and imbalances in gw2, instead of revitalising all modes(dungeons included) and by extension making gw2 an experience that encouraged current players to bring their friends to come and play and in turn keeps the new blood hooked and playing too - the sort of thing that gives you the creative and financial security to THEN pursue new ventures, they did none of that and wasted what trust and leeway they had with NC.

 

As the person quoted above said NC soft is portrayed as a bogeyman. It's not true though. They're a holding company. They're truly in it to make money. They're more than willing to help you help them make more money- to a point. Again, as per ANet's insistance, they didn't come in and change the company culture at all. All they've ever done is give ANet(or any other studio) the freedom to fly or to hang themselves. When the latter turned out to be the case for ANet that's when the letters stating that layoffs would have to be made came in.

 

Nobody's pretending NC soft has ever been a touchy-feely company. And yes, we all know what happened with City of Heroes. Or we should. So knowing this history and continuing to allow their flagship product to wither on the vine, setting there with their thumbs well-placed, pretending the money would never run out until their staff had to be gutted? Whose fault was that again?

 

Why do people continue to treat ANet as victims here when they're living in a hell of their own making?

[Substance E.4852]

> @"ChronoPinoyX.7923" said:

> > @"Substance E.4852" said:

> > > @"Tiviana.2650" said:

> > > Anet was always under company rule since the day ncsoft bought them.

> >

> > Which is literally before GW1 even came out.

> >

> > NCsoft is a boogieman people invoke to absolve Anet of poor decision making

> >

> > Guild Wars is not City of Heroes

>

> ANet didn't decide to sack and move people around mid development of certain things to start failed projects. It was NCSoft, who were trying to be Blizzard with stuff like MxM when they know they can't compete.

 

Do you have a single fact to back that up?

 

[Acheron.4731]

This is purely on ANET....It is absurd to use NCS as the scapegoat

[Vieux P.1238]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> I was raised on a policy of your reap what you sow.

> So while you can feel sorry for the devs and i can get behind that, i cannot feel sorry for ANet as a whole.

>

> Even more so after the announcement. It showcased the worst side of ANet, the inability to learn from their previous failure. Instead they turned to marketing and asked them how to reframe it. So now we have Saga's instead of Story and yet nothing changed. Even the Dev on stage wanted to try and say they have 4 teams now, as if to say they didn't have 4 teams back when Mike O'Brien had to apologize to the community 2 years ago.

>

 

Oh so damn i do agree!

[RyuDragnier.9476]

> @"Acheron.4731" said:

> This is purely on ANET....It is absurd to use NCS as the scapegoat

*looks at the cancellation of City of Heroes and closure of Paragon Studios*

No, it's not absurd to blame NCS, there's precedent.

[Acheron.4731]

> @"RyuDragnier.9476" said:

> > @"Acheron.4731" said:

> > This is purely on ANET....It is absurd to use NCS as the scapegoat

> *looks at the cancellation of City of Heroes and closure of Paragon Studios*

> No, it's not absurd to blame NCS, there's precedent.

 

It was almost entirely predictable though....people saw the decline steadily coming for almost a year...kept warning against it,,,,then this 'confirmed' their fears.

They stated themselves that GW2 was unaffected by previous layoffs