So what do you all want Specifically to be changed about Firebrand?

[ZDragon.3046]

I think either the mantras need to be toned down or the tomes need to be toned down by a good deal.

 

Firebrand is still over-tuned when it does not need to be because guardian is such a strong well balanced foundation for the elite spect to stand on unlike so many others.

[otto.5684]

There are two angles here. PvE and PvP.

 

PvE wise, FB support is okay. There are only 5 support builds (6 if you include scrapper). FB provides 100% uptime on quickness + 25 might (though the might is questionable in consistency). This is similar to renegade support (alacrity instead of quickness). FB healing is probably overall 4th among support (even tactics warrior could be better now). Overall it is solid, but not out reaching by any means.

 

PvP. FB support power comes from 4 things:

 

1) Stability.

2) Instant rez (and strong rez in general).

3) Condi removal.

4) Damage blocking.

 

Condi removal and damage blocking are inline. I do not see any issues here and are they are integral for FB dps sustain as well. The instant rez and AOE stability are what is out performing.

 

@"Ganathar.4956" this is absolutely false. It specifically needs a nerf to AOE stability.

 

@"Atticus.7194" this is not even remotely correct. Even in PvP tactics warrior, druid and tempest can out heal FB. It is the other tools that make FB superior, not the healing.

 

Also, Mantra of lore only removes 1 condi and 5 sec reg every 12 secs, in 180 radius. Good, but far from being over powered. Many classes (including other guardian skills) can remove far more condis per shorter intervals. If you remove the condi removal from it, it becomes useless. As for the reg.. again, it is not like FB is killing it on the healing side and mantra's have small radius anyway. The only reason mantra of lore is used in FB support is cuz you do not use valor. Otherwise, Smite is much better.

 

And a reminder, FB is supposed to also have a functional PvP dps build. When you remove all sustain options, to hit support, dps build (which has questionable viability to begin with) becomes unviable.

 

What needs to change is removal of instant rez and lower duration on stability from Mantra of Liberation.

 

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

I’d love to see the viability of a condi spec build. I’d especially love to see the tome 2, skill 1 changed as a damage skill with an added condi to it, like bleed, confusion, or torment, etc.

[Arken.3725]

I'm all for changes but check this out. If this is to be gutted(even moreso with every patch), I want some BS mechanics. I want stealth, instant-ranged burst that does 12k+, passive invuln when my health hits 50% along with skills that don't require me to stand still(symbols). Give me these and you can have your nerfs.

 

And yes, all the mechanics listed above ARE BS mechanics and are unhealthy for the game. Why can't Guardian have these? I'm sure there's more to be listed but this should suffice for now.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

I'l like Alacrity too. Then we just delete others support classes.

[DKNero.1564]

the guardian as support is fine what I would like is a rework for the hammer would help to have more diversity when making builds

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:

> I'l like Alacrity too. Then we just delete others support classes.

 

Sorry, you won't get another chrono.

[InsaneQR.7412]

Actually I want QoL on the refresh justice on kill.

Its annoying that you need to get out of tome first before it can proc.

Would be nice if it is refreshed when you pop out of tome when you killed someone with it.

Otherwise I don't have to add a lot because I don't play it really throughly.

[Hot Boy.7138]

I can't say for sure what I would change because I dont play firebrand. I dont know the details of how it heals or does damage, but I can say it is way too strong against my specific build. i dont know if other people are having as much trouble with it as me. But i find it to be a near impossible fight.

[Conncept.7638]

Not a nerf, an, in my opinion, absolutely necessary change to PvE usability.

 

Renewed Justice should refill our pages instead of resetting the tomes cooldown, or do both. It's just janky, unintuitive, and breaks the flow of play to be forced to constantly drop out of your tome for a fraction of a second for no good reason.

[miguelsil.6324]

> @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:

> > @"Arctisavange.7261" said:

> > People think that just cause enemies are able to push and kill you, its all cause of firebrands. While its true that the class does offer benefits on making movements but a ton of players are completely blindfolded by the real reasons of death - you are dieing cause you are facing DPS classes that can 2 shot you to the floor with a push of a button.

> >

> > It is not firebrands fault that DPS classes has the ability to kill everyone way too fast. If anyone who complains about firebrand had even played from years 2012-2015 then you would know for a fact that back then stability didnt get removed so heavily like these days, meaning melee pushes were very frequent and guess what, nobody died on the first pushes (aside newcomers to WvW).

> > All the 1 shot magic started to came out on HoT rlease when revenant was released amongst with class specs (not to mention stability nerf which killed melee gameplay for many years to follow).

> >

> > Stop complaining about firebrands making any sort of melee movements possible and complain about the real actual cause - DPS being way too kitten high.

> >

> > You dont see players in games like World Of Warcraft 2-3 shoting in PvP. Imageon the outcry if that were the case.

>

> You only got half the problem correct. DPS is wildly out of tune at the moment, but a big contributing factor to BOTH DPS and FB issues is one thing: Boon Spam.

>

> Boons are ridiculously overtuned and overproduced, and Anet’s solution was to buff DPS and boon removal like Scourge and Spellbreaker while never actually addressing the real issue. They started to by gutting chrono, but when Firebrand came along it threw things way out of proportion. It was bad in HoT, but not THIS bad.

>

> FB needs major nerfs, but so does DPS, CC, and boon removal, and until we see major reductions to all of them, things will just stay the same.

 

Thank god someone that knows what they saying, everything needs tunning down, you should not have constant boon spamming and constant corruption spamming either nor ridiculous damage and cc.

 

For the cc its reall simple, put on an ICD of at least 1s after the effect ends/is broken before you can suffer another hard CC like daze, imobile, stun and fear.

 

So if a stun lasts 3s the ICD starts after it ends by going the full amount of time or by stun break abilities.

[waaghals.6124]

Chrono gave all boons and more and fb now does that except alacrity. So either unnerf chrono or nerd fb

[Svarty.8019]

I think Firebrand should not be about spamming tonnes of buffs. The expacs ruined GW2.

 

 

[Hagion.1086]

I don't want nerfs, I just wanted core guardian more buffed and interesting (virtues system) , rework some weapons skills like hammer, mace, scepter...

[Stand The Wall.6987]

firebrand currently doesn't have a trade off. if it had a meaningful one it wouldn't need any nerfs, well maybe a couple shaves.

 

the trade off I thought of would be to lock out utility skills when using tomes. having full access to defense and being able to camp tomes is kinda wack. maybe revert courage cd nerf.

[otto.5684]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> firebrand currently doesn't have a trade off. if it had a meaningful one it wouldn't need any nerfs, well maybe a couple shaves.

>

> the trade off I thought of would be to lock out utility skills when using tomes. having full access to defense and being able to camp tomes is kinda wack. maybe revert courage cd nerf.

 

The fact that the tomes lock your weapon skills alone is a huge downside. Not only that, they are not instant or nearly instant like virtues.

 

Try playing FB without healing power in PvP, and see how pathetically weak it is compared to core and DH.

 

I do not know why people keep going all over the place. Just reduce the aoe stability and the instant Rez. Problem solved. Why do we keep trying to recreate the wheel as a triangle.

[Lottie.5370]

Honestly I'd just like them to buff other supports to be somewhat viable alongside FB. If I had to change anything about FB, I'd tone down some of the boon durations or generations (not aegis - but protection, retal, regen...).

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > firebrand currently doesn't have a trade off. if it had a meaningful one it wouldn't need any nerfs, well maybe a couple shaves.

> >

> > the trade off I thought of would be to lock out utility skills when using tomes. having full access to defense and being able to camp tomes is kinda wack. maybe revert courage cd nerf.

>

> The fact that the tomes lock your weapon skills alone is a huge downside. Not only that, they are not instant or nearly instant like virtues.

>

> Try playing FB without healing power in PvP, and see how pathetically weak it is compared to core and DH.

>

> I do not know why people keep going all over the place. Just reduce the aoe stability and the instant Rez. Problem solved. Why do we keep trying to recreate the wheel as a triangle.

 

lol, ofc they would design it to "lock out" weapon skills. how else would it be done? that's not an argument.

second part makes no sense.

other good suggestions. a trade off is not recreating the wheel. trade off = trade off.

[otto.5684]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > firebrand currently doesn't have a trade off. if it had a meaningful one it wouldn't need any nerfs, well maybe a couple shaves.

> > >

> > > the trade off I thought of would be to lock out utility skills when using tomes. having full access to defense and being able to camp tomes is kinda wack. maybe revert courage cd nerf.

> >

> > The fact that the tomes lock your weapon skills alone is a huge downside. Not only that, they are not instant or nearly instant like virtues.

> >

> > Try playing FB without healing power in PvP, and see how pathetically weak it is compared to core and DH.

> >

> > I do not know why people keep going all over the place. Just reduce the aoe stability and the instant Rez. Problem solved. Why do we keep trying to recreate the wheel as a triangle.

>

> lol, ofc they would design it to "lock out" weapon skills. how else would it be done? that's not an argument.

> second part makes no sense.

> other good suggestions. a trade off is not recreating the wheel. trade off = trade off.

 

So.. locking weapons is not a trade off.

Tomes requiring casting instead of offering instant sustainability is not a trade off.

FB heavy requirement for healing power for sustainability, compared to core and DH is not a trade off.

 

Cool.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> So.. locking weapons is not a trade off.

> Tomes requiring casting instead of offering instant sustainability is not a trade off.

> FB heavy requirement for healing power for sustainability, compared to core and DH is not a trade off.

>

> Cool.

 

if they are trade offs they are obviously failing hard since fb is very op.

[otto.5684]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > So.. locking weapons is not a trade off.

> > Tomes requiring casting instead of offering instant sustainability is not a trade off.

> > FB heavy requirement for healing power for sustainability, compared to core and DH is not a trade off.

> >

> > Cool.

>

> if they are trade offs they are obviously failing hard since fb is very op.

 

This argument is so extremely lacking of what the issues are I won’t even bother to go into details. And honestly, I could use this fail logic with anything even slightly out performing in any content. And would be extremely wrong.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > So.. locking weapons is not a trade off.

> > > Tomes requiring casting instead of offering instant sustainability is not a trade off.

> > > FB heavy requirement for healing power for sustainability, compared to core and DH is not a trade off.

> > >

> > > Cool.

> >

> > if they are trade offs they are obviously failing hard since fb is very op.

>

> This argument is so extremely lacking of what the issues are I won’t even bother to go into details. And honestly, I could use this fail logic with anything even slightly out performing in any content. And would be extremely wrong.

 

its ok dood, i'm only building on your failures. continuing the tradition. anet will likely nerf fb hard a dozen times instead of it ever getting a real trade off, so this discussion is kind of pointless. lets agree to disagree.

[RUNICBLACK.7630]

As a observation with regard to your idea of the Tomes locking out the Utilites ,that is how the guardians Elites used to work(these were Tome of Wrath and Tome of Courage)they were to under powered or at least poorly designed and left you completely open to attack, barely anybody used them overall . Please consider when you are suggesting this how one note the tomes are in that you have for example only one damaging attack on the Courage Tome (baring Reflect) and Resolve has nothing that other than healing etc ...so are you also saying that any other class that has access to a kit style skill should also lose access to their utility skills when use a kit and before anybody brings up most of these classes can't swap weapons which while being on the whole a valid point on say the Engineer it isn't a reasonable defense on the Elementalist that while they can't swap weapons they can cycle thru double the amount of skills any other character can (20 individual weapon skills to cycle thru where as any other class can only cycle thru 10 even with the ability to swap weapons, and a Weaver has more) and not even considering their kit like skills the conjured weapons

This again comes back to the rather flawed viewpoint that FB is excessively over powered which is patently false , yes it can use with some fine tuning or more intelligently they bring more access to stability to other classes (particularly in WvW)which is generally one of the biggest issues driving the FB is over powered argument.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"RUNICBLACK.7630" said:

> snips

 

fb will get hard nerfed into oblivion if anet looks at it in any serious way. being able to camp a tome with mantra of solace, truth, and liberation is whats broke. what should they do, remove the aegis, blind, and stab/ stun break from all those tomes?

how about we get stab on entering a tome and revert cd nerfs while locking out utilities. that will take care of most of the problems right there.

[RUNICBLACK.7630]

Ok either you don't remember the original Guardian Elites or you are intentionally being obtuse, because anybody that remembers and used the Tomes of Wrath or Courage which did exactly what you are requesting knows that they weren't useful so most players stopped using them except for a sense of thematic flavor and not for any really utility so you think it is perfectly acceptable change the Tomes of the FB to that level worthlessness for a key part of the functionality of the elite class than by your own logic it would be fine to remove say the pets from the Soulbeast or kits from a Scrapper or how about Stealth from a Deadeye of course the answer is no because it is an intrical part of the class you constantly imply that FB is camping the Tomes plus the Mantras, well have you looked at the Cool Down time on the Tomes recently and honestly Mantras are ok but I actually prefer not to use them in PvP because of always having to recast them etc has cost me in the middle of close matches. So it's rather obvious that you have an overwhelming bias against the Firebrand and you are refusing to actually discuss the issues with any sense of pro's and con's on the merits so you throw out the equivalent of the nuclear option for nerf and say to anyone that disagrees with you that you're right and they are wrong( How is "its ok dood, i'm only building on your failures. continuing the tradition" any example of defending your argument? )

You pretty much sound as bias as this person

> @"waaghals.6124" said:

> Chrono gave all boons and more and fb now does that except alacrity. So either unnerf chrono or nerd fb

 

or like the individuals that go around asking that they delete an entire class.

Come on you have done better defending your point of view even if I disagree with it I would still rather hear your defense of it instead of the you're right and everyone else is wrong tirade.

Just as a side note how is that you view the FB as powerful as you do ? I'm fairly certain that FB's isn't owning the top tiers PvP in solo que and probably not so much in duo either, yes they are strong in the tournaments but that is often fairly coordinated team efforts which is totally different from standard pug solo pvp, and yes it's strong in WvW but so is Herald and I've also been running with my guild on nights that just for fun we ran a 30 plus squad as all Soulbeasts (killed everything we ran into pretty much until we were severely out numbered). I still fail to see this viewpoint that they are insanely over powered, yes they are strong with coordinated team work but what class isn't ?

I've run FB alot along with DH , Core Guard, Core Necro , Scourge, Reaper, Mirage, Chrono(yes they got a raw deal), Warrior, Berserker, Spellbreaker and almost everything else and depending on the PvP season they have done well or not so well but I have never seen any indication that they are over powered to the degree you seem to think for the record I have seen a fair number of other classes that could destroy a FB easily so why do you have this over the top animus towards the class honestly?