Nerfing condi thief..while leaving Shadow art Deadeye untouched.....

[Axl.8924]

> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > > > @"Alwayshappy.2549" said:

> > > > ''Oh, I lost vs a stealth deadeye''. ''NERF IT TO THE GROUND''.

> > >

> > > Why not?

> >

> > And the counter- why?

> > I don't like the clone mechanic and dislike fighting all mesmer specs because of that, doesn't make the mechanic op nor should it be deleted

>

> let me ask you a question; how long would a gaming company whose embraces and whose vision to implement healthy competitiveness would have dealt with it?

>

> **Certainly not 7 years with continuation of it!!**

>

> Once again, delete this Toxic mechanic design so guild wars 2 can have hope to be competitive.

>

> Side note-

> Either redesign the root cause- Thief Profession from the ground or throw it in the trash alongside with Stealth

>

>

 

At this rate, half measures such as nerfing the wrong trait to death won't fix the game.

 

Just look at the mess we are in because of half measures, and the fans certainly don't all know what they are talking about.

 

Just look at the amount of bias in this forum from people who don't play thief and yet want to completely destroy stealth. and how oblivious they are to the consequences that "thief" not other players will pay for said nerfs.

 

This is not a new phenomenon. If you want proof, look at wow and how players cry for nerfs and suggest nerfs that gut a class completely.

 

Some people who understand thief and want it nerfed may or may not understand what's needed, but other times, their plot is to destroy a class so they don't have to deal with it because they hate said mechanic.

 

More proof is how when some class gets nerfed into the ground and for instance and said class hates that enemy class who is a counter, they will applaud it and even celebrate completely uncaring if said other class gets completely destroyed. I would be careful before celebrate or ask for nerfs as its a slippery slope as one day your class may get nerfed into the ground a position no class should be. Look at how low dmg thieves do with auto-attack. Also, look at the effects necros and mesmers are getting from said huge nerfs, or look at the new changes to rampage for warrior modifiers.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > > > > > @"Alwayshappy.2549" said:

> > > > > > ''Oh, I lost vs a stealth deadeye''. ''NERF IT TO THE GROUND''.

> > > > >

> > > > > Why not?

> > > >

> > > > And the counter- why?

> > > > I don't like the clone mechanic and dislike fighting all mesmer specs because of that, doesn't make the mechanic op nor should it be deleted

> > >

> > > let me ask you a question; how long would a gaming company whose embraces and whose vision to implement healthy competitiveness would have dealt with it?

> > >

> > > **Certainly not 7 years with continuation of it!!**

> > >

> > > Once again, delete this Toxic mechanic design so guild wars 2 can have hope to be competitive.

> > >

> > > Side note-

> > > Either redesign the root cause- Thief Profession from the ground or throw it in the trash alongside with Stealth

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Again why? Cuz u dont like it?

> > To bad, move on!

>

> You had moved on to Archage :P

> Whos left first ?:P

 

I play both, I may be on gw2 forums these more than I play it but still do a handful of matches a week. Since that seems to matter :)

[Burnfall.9573]

> @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said:

> If they are to touch deadeye, it is only fair to bring other builds of similar damage potential in line.

>

> Because let's be honest, being one-shot simply because you let yourself relax for one second, or were focused on a duel, is not fun for the receiving side. You're allowed to have damage and mobility; however, you should not be granted access to mobility, CC AND damage at the same time.

 

**+10**

 

**that is the entire root cause of guild wars 2 Toxicity: everything happening at the same time** leaving no room for risks, consequences, hard work, effort, healthy competition, fun and growth

[Curennos.9307]

1) Shadow Meld is ridiculous. I'd rather something that directly helps with combat. Countering a counter has rarely been a good idea, and on top of that the skill is just flat out stealth. It's another utility skill that gives stealth. Thief feels....weird. It's possible to do without stealth, but you have to crutch on other things. Without those things (like rifle/rifle DE), you have to use stealth way more than any other build - and you die horribly if you don't. Admittedly you die horribly to any spvp team that knows what they're doing anyway, but....y'know. Someone elsewhere mentioned making it like Basilisk venom - 2 charges, each hit strips # of boons or something. Also can Silent Scope apply to all weapons. Rifle has the easiest time landing stealth attacks - life as a dagger-pistol DE is....hard. Tbh I think that trait should be baseline.

 

2) Shadow Arts has too much random stealth. Why does it offer stealth on steal? What is the purpose of that? Why stealth on heal use? How are these traits supposed to mesh with gameplay? They all feel tacked on, as if someone decided the traitline's theme was stealth and they just made it give as much stealth as possible. More often than not, the extra stealth either doesn't do anything (as a DE, I don't need stealth on steal since Mark gives quickness and burst has to follow immediately after...no other spec really does much with it either, as steal/swipe -> melee range for attacking? Whyyyyyy) or does **too much** - in the form of the Desception heal, which already gives stealth - and giving it more stealth is just a flat out buff.

 

3) Too many traits encourage stacking. Shadow's rejuv is a prime example of this - why does it give you health based on the duration spent in stealth? As opposed to, say, starting with a bigger heal of x value that decreases the longer it takes you to come out of stealth. Same for the ini gain. Shadow's Embrace and Leeching Venoms also have the same issue.

 

This is why I love Flickering Shadows. It encourages dipping in and out of stealth to maintain revealed. It's great. I wish I could run shadow arts + M7 on DE for the juicy prot + flickering stacking, but that's another story. Really, I want to give anet credit where credit is due. Flickering Shadows is perfection incarnate. And the other two GM traits have some issues, but just...mwah. Lovely overall. Anyway...

 

Silent Scope is a **nice trait**. At least, I think so, because it seems to give JUST enough stealth to allow for some amount of positioning OR counterattack OR escape, but only one of those. You're stealthed after dodge - you have enough time to try and make some distance, or get off a stealth attack, or run super far. But you can't do all of those at once and the stealth isn't long enough to reposition AND get off a stealth attack.

 

4) Rifle has super weird design. Rifle#2 in particular needs...help. Kneel skills in pvp are minuscule improvements over non-kneeling. That said, why are non kneels just slightly watered down versions of kneeling skills? Personally, I very much love how Anet designed rifle#4. The standing skill is useful in a variety of ways. Kneeling rifle 4 is useful in a variety of ways, but very different than than the standing skill. As things are, rifle#5 is utterly wasted beause you don't actually get much - if anything - for kneeling in spvp, which means the skill is wasted and rifle ends up pidgeon holed into some things.

 

5) Thief is an incomplete class as a whole. Trickery fills in the gaps - without trickery, thief is shoved into certain builds. This is a class design issue that really has nothing to do with DE specifically. Fixing Thief's convoluted dependence on trickery will make more balanced changes to other traitlines much easier.

[Dantheman.3589]

> @"bluri.2653" said:

> So now SA de is op? Lmao im dying

 

The topic is kind of dead too start with. Anet is just trying to rework condi thief into a more desirable sustain meta just like they did with the shadow arts rework. We all know some builds are broken no point in complaining it’s the overall design that matters

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> 1) Shadow Meld is ridiculous. I'd rather something that directly helps with combat. Countering a counter has rarely been a good idea, and on top of that the skill is just flat out stealth. It's another utility skill that gives stealth. Thief feels....weird. It's possible to do without stealth, but you have to crutch on other things. Without those things (like rifle/rifle DE), you have to use stealth way more than any other build - and you die horribly if you don't. Admittedly you die horribly to any spvp team that knows what they're doing anyway, but....y'know. Someone elsewhere mentioned making it like Basilisk venom - 2 charges, each hit strips # of boons or something. Also can Silent Scope apply to all weapons. Rifle has the easiest time landing stealth attacks - life as a dagger-pistol DE is....hard. Tbh I think that trait should be baseline.

 

I think Shadow Meld would make more sense as like the thief equivalent of mist form. The thief literally becomes a pool of shadow, becomes invulnerable, and traverses across the ground at extreme speeds. But this type of ultimate is more or less redundant after they turned Daggerstorm into a full on evade rather than a reflect.

 

Right now it's this weird thing where it counters reveal which is the counter to stealth so it's a counter to a counter that's already kind of rare and sparsely available but it's outclassed by daggerstorm anyway.

 

Something kind of like this.

 


 

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > 1) Shadow Meld is ridiculous. I'd rather something that directly helps with combat. Countering a counter has rarely been a good idea, and on top of that the skill is just flat out stealth. It's another utility skill that gives stealth. Thief feels....weird. It's possible to do without stealth, but you have to crutch on other things. Without those things (like rifle/rifle DE), you have to use stealth way more than any other build - and you die horribly if you don't. Admittedly you die horribly to any spvp team that knows what they're doing anyway, but....y'know. Someone elsewhere mentioned making it like Basilisk venom - 2 charges, each hit strips # of boons or something. Also can Silent Scope apply to all weapons. Rifle has the easiest time landing stealth attacks - life as a dagger-pistol DE is....hard. Tbh I think that trait should be baseline.

>

> I think Shadow Meld would make more sense as like the thief equivalent of mist form. The thief literally becomes a pool of shadow, becomes invulnerable, and traverses across the ground at extreme speeds. But this type of ultimate is more or less redundant after they turned Daggerstorm into a full on evade rather than a reflect.

>

> Right now it's this weird thing where it counters reveal which is the counter to stealth so it's a counter to a counter that's already kind of rare and sparsely available but it's outclassed by daggerstorm anyway.

>

> Something kind of like this.

>

> 

>

 

Ninja scroll :) classic. Such a awesome movie.

[LazySummer.2568]

permastealth SA deadeye is really only a problem in wvw roaming where it's all open field and they can kite you forever and there arent that many place for you to LoS and you cant just "win" by capping either. Wvw stats also make them do a lot more damage

[RedShark.9548]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> The first has a plethora of counterspecs and counterplay option while the latter **basically has none** still Anet pushed in the wrong direction will nerf condi thief which I rarely see these days and will leave SA deadeye out of the picture while it's literally a plague in both PvP and WvW....As I stated in a previous thread, it's possible to counter condi spec on basically all classes unless heavily outplayed....but Anet still go and put nerfing precedence on condi thief while permastealth horror is a thing...just why?

 

Can you tell me whats the counterplay to condi thief as warrior? Last season i played ranked was in december last year, but was in plat.

I always get kitten up by condi thiefes, especially in wvw. Appreciate tips.

[Dantheman.3589]

> @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > The first has a plethora of counterspecs and counterplay option while the latter **basically has none** still Anet pushed in the wrong direction will nerf condi thief which I rarely see these days and will leave SA deadeye out of the picture while it's literally a plague in both PvP and WvW....As I stated in a previous thread, it's possible to counter condi spec on basically all classes unless heavily outplayed....but Anet still go and put nerfing precedence on condi thief while permastealth horror is a thing...just why?

>

> Can you tell me whats the counterplay to condi thief as warrior? Last season i played ranked was in december last year, but was in plat.

> I always get kitten up by condi thiefes, especially in wvw. Appreciate tips.

 

Hmm I was plat3 last season on condi thief. Ppl always shrug off losing 1v1s to warriors but it seems plausible to me. First off warrior has some instant condi clear and if it’s timed well with good dodges a warrior can mitigate a lot of the damage while doing unblockable damage. This alone isn’t usually enough to win the fight but if you can land anything in rampage or to apply a tether this 1v1 can easily turn around. If there’s a lot of room I feel I can 1v1 most warriors but with little space and with less of a skill gap present in top tier warriors this 1v1 becomes kind of tough

 

[babazhook.6805]

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> 1) Shadow Meld is ridiculous. I'd rather something that directly helps with combat. Countering a counter has rarely been a good idea, and on top of that the skill is just flat out stealth. It's another utility skill that gives stealth. Thief feels....weird. It's possible to do without stealth, but you have to crutch on other things. Without those things (like rifle/rifle DE), you have to use stealth way more than any other build - and you die horribly if you don't. Admittedly you die horribly to any spvp team that knows what they're doing anyway, but....y'know. Someone elsewhere mentioned making it like Basilisk venom - 2 charges, each hit strips # of boons or something. Also can Silent Scope apply to all weapons. Rifle has the easiest time landing stealth attacks - life as a dagger-pistol DE is....hard. Tbh I think that trait should be baseline.

>

> 2) Shadow Arts has too much random stealth. Why does it offer stealth on steal? What is the purpose of that? Why stealth on heal use? How are these traits supposed to mesh with gameplay? They all feel tacked on, as if someone decided the traitline's theme was stealth and they just made it give as much stealth as possible. More often than not, the extra stealth either doesn't do anything (as a DE, I don't need stealth on steal since Mark gives quickness and burst has to follow immediately after...no other spec really does much with it either, as steal/swipe -> melee range for attacking? Whyyyyyy) or does **too much** - in the form of the Desception heal, which already gives stealth - and giving it more stealth is just a flat out buff.

>

> 3) Too many traits encourage stacking. Shadow's rejuv is a prime example of this - why does it give you health based on the duration spent in stealth? As opposed to, say, starting with a bigger heal of x value that decreases the longer it takes you to come out of stealth. Same for the ini gain. Shadow's Embrace and Leeching Venoms also have the same issue.

>

> This is why I love Flickering Shadows. It encourages dipping in and out of stealth to maintain revealed. It's great. I wish I could run shadow arts + M7 on DE for the juicy prot + flickering stacking, but that's another story. Really, I want to give anet credit where credit is due. Flickering Shadows is perfection incarnate. And the other two GM traits have some issues, but just...mwah. Lovely overall. Anyway...

>

> Silent Scope is a **nice trait**. At least, I think so, because it seems to give JUST enough stealth to allow for some amount of positioning OR counterattack OR escape, but only one of those. You're stealthed after dodge - you have enough time to try and make some distance, or get off a stealth attack, or run super far. But you can't do all of those at once and the stealth isn't long enough to reposition AND get off a stealth attack.

>

> 4) Rifle has super weird design. Rifle#2 in particular needs...help. Kneel skills in pvp are minuscule improvements over non-kneeling. That said, why are non kneels just slightly watered down versions of kneeling skills? Personally, I very much love how Anet designed rifle#4. The standing skill is useful in a variety of ways. Kneeling rifle 4 is useful in a variety of ways, but very different than than the standing skill. As things are, rifle#5 is utterly wasted beause you don't actually get much - if anything - for kneeling in spvp, which means the skill is wasted and rifle ends up pidgeon holed into some things.

>

> 5) Thief is an incomplete class as a whole. Trickery fills in the gaps - without trickery, thief is shoved into certain builds. This is a class design issue that really has nothing to do with DE specifically. Fixing Thief's convoluted dependence on trickery will make more balanced changes to other traitlines much easier.

 

Shadow arts does not apply too much random stealth. There are 12 traits in the line DESIGNED for stealth. There a total of three of those traits that provide stealth and one is exclusive to another meaning you can take at most 2 traits out of 12 that provide stealth in a line designed around stealth. How does this translate to too many traits? 2 is too many?

 

Even if you do take 2 of those traits (and in fact you are only choosing one added stealth form the line as stealth on heal inherent) you give up one of the most useful condition cleanses to do so meaning parking in stealth is not cleansing conditions. Using the logic of 2 is too many is one enough? I suggest that in game the majority of persons using SA take ONE stealth trait from that line and that is the stealth on heal. It hardly random.

[RedShark.9548]

> @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > The first has a plethora of counterspecs and counterplay option while the latter **basically has none** still Anet pushed in the wrong direction will nerf condi thief which I rarely see these days and will leave SA deadeye out of the picture while it's literally a plague in both PvP and WvW....As I stated in a previous thread, it's possible to counter condi spec on basically all classes unless heavily outplayed....but Anet still go and put nerfing precedence on condi thief while permastealth horror is a thing...just why?

> >

> > Can you tell me whats the counterplay to condi thief as warrior? Last season i played ranked was in december last year, but was in plat.

> > I always get kitten up by condi thiefes, especially in wvw. Appreciate tips.

>

> Hmm I was plat3 last season on condi thief. Ppl always shrug off losing 1v1s to warriors but it seems plausible to me. First off warrior has some instant condi clear and if it’s timed well with good dodges a warrior can mitigate a lot of the damage while doing unblockable damage. This alone isn’t usually enough to win the fight but if you can land anything in rampage or to apply a tether this 1v1 can easily turn around. If there’s a lot of room I feel I can 1v1 most warriors but with little space and with less of a skill gap present in top tier warriors this 1v1 becomes kind of tough

>

 

I met a guy in wvw and he just camped on his longbow and was spamming autoattacks and constantly put poison stacks on me, way too many to cleanse and dodge them all, and when i attacked he just started to kite with bow skills and shadowstep.

 

The amount of poison he applied was ridiculous and felt impossible to win

[Burnfall.9573]

This is 5 Years old videos.....Years later

Why is this Toxicity excusable to not be seriously addressed? This is the reason why words of mouth is telling everyone that balance in this game is a joke because the root cause of problems continues to not be addressed and are given full permission to do whatever it wants especially with Thief Profession who continually is excused and justified from serious changes.

 

 

 

7 Years old video

 


 

[Dantheman.3589]

> @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > > @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > The first has a plethora of counterspecs and counterplay option while the latter **basically has none** still Anet pushed in the wrong direction will nerf condi thief which I rarely see these days and will leave SA deadeye out of the picture while it's literally a plague in both PvP and WvW....As I stated in a previous thread, it's possible to counter condi spec on basically all classes unless heavily outplayed....but Anet still go and put nerfing precedence on condi thief while permastealth horror is a thing...just why?

> > >

> > > Can you tell me whats the counterplay to condi thief as warrior? Last season i played ranked was in december last year, but was in plat.

> > > I always get kitten up by condi thiefes, especially in wvw. Appreciate tips.

> >

> > Hmm I was plat3 last season on condi thief. Ppl always shrug off losing 1v1s to warriors but it seems plausible to me. First off warrior has some instant condi clear and if it’s timed well with good dodges a warrior can mitigate a lot of the damage while doing unblockable damage. This alone isn’t usually enough to win the fight but if you can land anything in rampage or to apply a tether this 1v1 can easily turn around. If there’s a lot of room I feel I can 1v1 most warriors but with little space and with less of a skill gap present in top tier warriors this 1v1 becomes kind of tough

> >

>

> I met a guy in wvw and he just camped on his longbow and was spamming autoattacks and constantly put poison stacks on me, way too many to cleanse and dodge them all, and when i attacked he just started to kite with bow skills and shadowstep.

>

> The amount of poison he applied was ridiculous and felt impossible to win

Yeah I mean this makes sense because WvW has a lot of room so a condi thief will just use sw2 over and over plus short bow making the 1v1 very ez plus condi thief in WvW is probably much stronger than pvp.