Does anyone feels like necro is super broken?

[Antycypator.9874]

This is about necro in PvE.

Sometimes I play my necro, but I'm still trying to find something better than power reaper. To be honest: power reaper is great. I really like this spec, I enjoy it (necro is my "break" from any other class I play because reaper is easy).

But all my positive thoughts on necro ends here.

Condi necro or scourge is incredible slow, you have to use many skills to reach numbers, but these numbers are not super high. Necro is the only one class that can damage itself (!!!). Sacrifice your mobility and health for some damage which is still low per tick, because base condi duration is insane. OK, scourge can transfer it's conditions. Great. It was great before shade nerf, but now necro is even worse. It's good to move around as condi scourge; torment deals more damage (50% more) to moving targets, but shroud skills don't work around character anymore (if you have placed any shade). It makes everything more difficult.

Power option for core necro and scourge takes only few burst skills, like axe 2, dagger 2, shroud 4 (core) or 5 (scourge). Power option for core and scourge is so bad, that power reaper can out-dps them only with GS AA chain.

 

I just don't know why scourge is made to be slow. Why necro has to punish itself? Condi mirage or weaver are classes with nice condi burst, so why necro, as one of the most popular classes, can't stand in line with others?

[KrHome.1920]

Necro in PvE:

Reaper: extremely durable and extreme aoe and because of that only 30k dps (otherwise everyone would just play reaper).

Scourge: support spec with insane area coverage and because of that only mediocre dps

Core: forget about it! It was a design fail right from the start of the game - just look at the core shroud skills that try to be a jack of all trades and lack an identity.

[Wuffy.9732]

Frankly, I think if condi Firebrand can get a ridiculous buff in damage then I don't see why Scourge can't. Anet's forgotten step-children taking the plunge some more I suppose...

[Xxnecroxx.4039]

yes necro is broken, it doesn't do well in an gamemode other than being a boon corrupt bot in PVP/WVW and even then Anet keeps nerfing the only use for necro in those gamemodes (when I say necro it includes reaper and scourge) there is only 1 build in PVE that is not a MEME and that is power reaper, but it is outclassed by pretty much every other power build it is still not good. just not MEME status, close but not there yet. Anet wants necro to only be a boon corrupt bot and nothing else, this is clear from their balance decisions in the past.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

The short answer is, because a few WvW players don't know how to play against Scourges and instead of learning to play better they screamed for nerfs instead. This primarily came from warrior and guardian players. Thus we are now left with a slow moving profession with mediocre dps, no defense, no real burst and support that can outmatched by any other class. Then to top it off, the one thing that makes them unique from other classes (boon corrupt), it's constantly getting shafted while other similar boon producing skills on other professions remain untouched (again, thanks to guardian and warrior players).

 

Despite that though, a tanky condition scourge is still dangerous and reliable. Extremely easy to solo a lot of content otherwise meant for a group in PvE, and still can be an annoyance in WvW against players that like to run in and spam 1.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> The short answer is, because a few WvW players don't know how to play against Scourges and instead of learning to play better they screamed for nerfs instead. This primarily came from warrior and guardian players. Thus we are now left with a slow moving profession with mediocre dps, no defense, no real burst and support that can outmatched by any other class. Then to top it off, the one thing that makes them unique from other classes (boon corrupt), it's constantly getting shafted while other similar boon producing skills on other professions remain untouched (again, thanks to guardian and warrior players).

>

> Despite that though, a tanky condition scourge is still dangerous and reliable. Extremely easy to solo a lot of content otherwise meant for a group in PvE, and still can be an annoyance in WvW against players that like to run in and spam 1.

 

I don't think this is a learn to play issue. In 1v1s yes. It is. But not in groupfights/zergs.

There it's very strong.

 

While I think, that scourge should be a supper only spec, that does some dmg.

It's pretty good that scourge exists right now, if you look at the insane amount of boonspam of the other classes.

Full zerk builds keeping up 15 might, fury, swiftness.

Or others being able to do 100% protection uptime.

 

That's really insane.

Part of the problem might be the stats available. 100% boonduration is basically halfing the cooldown of a boon generating skill.

But I also wouldn't like, if pvp amulets would be introduced to wvw. That would kill the gamemode for me.

[Dadnir.5038]

Well, "broken" is a big word.

 

My opinion (that I have since the vanilla game) is that ANet made a mistake when they choose to make the special mechanism of the necromancer it's main (and often only) mean of defense. By making this design choice, ANet effectively prevented the necromancer from being able to "specialize" traping it into being a "low ceiling" profession. Forever bound to have (below) average performance in both survivability and damage.

 

Elite specs could have been a mean to escape this poor fate but ANet didn't choose to exploit this possibility and instead choose to walk further on this already flawed path.

 

Imagine if reaper's shroud didn't have a second health bar and shouts but instead stances that could be traited to give barrier on use. The reaper would have been able to sacrifice damage for survivability and survivability for damage pretty fairly.

Imagine if scourge's shades weren't offensive area denial tools by design but simple support tools. The scourge wouldn't have had to nerfed that badly since it's release.

 

ANet's choices to stick to the fondamentally flawed design of the necromancer traped it into mediocrity. I'm not saying that there is no advantage to this mediocrity but it lock the necromancer out of the possibility to be able to specialize and thus to be able to compete fairly with other profession when highly specialized builds are needed.

[ZDragon.3046]

Welcome to necromancer life

your skills damage yourself and you get less payoff than other professions who get bigger bang for less upfront buck.

We dont get traits other light armor professions have like vigor on crit etc

 

Necro defense is conditional which has been slowly dumbed down over time making it less and less effective and more unstable.

Weakness 50% chance it wont reduce damage at all.

Cripple and chill dont slow/reduce movement skills anymore

Too much condition removal in every build now because of other classes like mirage, and weavers which makes conditional defense harder for necro

 

But you know people like to blame the 2nd hp bar which is not a hp bar which is not really the only main issue. Because core necro was fairly decent before everyone else started to get way out of hand.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> ANet's choices to stick to the fondamentally flawed design of the necromancer traped it into mediocrity. I'm not saying that there is no advantage to this mediocrity but it lock the necromancer out of the possibility to be able to specialize and thus to be able to compete fairly with other profession when highly specialized builds are needed.

 

But scourge does the opposite escaping the mediocrity and its currently doing worse than reaper depending on where you look......

This leads me to think that your statement is kind of not completely true the fact that reaper is doing better than scourge right now says other wise.

 

Also what about the passive shadow nerfs to conditional defense which all forums of necromancers use before HoT and how some conditions are still not updated to meet the gameplay that is found now in 2019. The lack of top end skill potential due to having to throw more boon corruption into necromancers kit to balance boons on 8 other professions and how these tools are not useful in pve but still hinder the top end potential of the skills they are tied too.

 

Its not just the shroud bar its far more than that.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > ANet's choices to stick to the fondamentally flawed design of the necromancer traped it into mediocrity. I'm not saying that there is no advantage to this mediocrity but it lock the necromancer out of the possibility to be able to specialize and thus to be able to compete fairly with other profession when highly specialized builds are needed.

>

> But scourge does the opposite escaping the mediocrity and its currently doing worse than reaper depending on where you look......

> This leads me to think that your statement is kind of not completely true the fact that reaper is doing better than scourge right now says other wise.

 

I disagree with that, scourge is still mediocre and continue to follow the rule that keep the necromancer into mediocrity. It's not because it doesn't have a shroud with a 2nd health bar that shades ain't doing the same thing than shroud. It's only strong if you stack scourges. It doesn't have great damage, nor great survivability and it's support isn't really competitive. And fondamentally the shade isn't very different than the shroud, since it try to do everything at the same time and especially carry most of the defensive aspect of the scourge.

 

Even if the reaper does better than scourge, on most aspect, the reaper can only really compete against the scourge. The reaper have only better survivability and power damage than scourge, while scourge can only say that he hold an advantage on condi damage and "support". All in all, it isn't really impressive since none of this can really compete with what other professions can do.

 

> Also what about the passive shadow nerfs to conditional defense which all forums of necromancers use before HoT and how some conditions are still not updated to meet the gameplay that is found now in 2019. The lack of top end skill potential due to having to throw more boon corruption into necromancers kit to balance boons on 8 other professions and how these tools are not useful in pve but still hinder the top end potential of the skills they are tied too.

>

> Its not just the shroud bar its far more than that.

 

The difference is that because your main defensive mechanism is your special mechanism, and there is no way to get rid of this fact, the necromancer can't be allowed to leave what I call "mediocrity". Other professions can choose to have defensive skills or not (not mesmer but it seem that ANet turn a blind eye on this fact...), this allow them to effectively specialize and ANet consider that it's a fair enough trade off to allow them superior performance when they specialize.

[Teratus.2859]

I have to agree on the condi side of Necro.. it's pretty weak as a condi spec in PvE but somewhat ok as a hybrid.

 

Main problem is that it relies heavily on bleeding which is a pretty weak condition compared to others and Necros have a slow attack/stack rate with sceptor so comparing Condi Necro to say Guardians or Engineers that can apply a lot of burning really quickly means that Necro condi builds just straight up suck really.

 

They do get Torment but not all that much of it and Torment isn't all that effective either if your enemy isnt moving.. it's a condition designed more to punish fleeing targets than fighting ones and in PvE it's unlikely you'll be making the most of Torment beacuse of this, specially in boss like encounters where most will just stack on a spot and the enemy will never move.

I have a Hybrid Revenant which can stack a severe amount of Torment so having access to mobility skills like Echoing Eruption and Call to Anguish allows me to make use of it far easier.. and mobility is something Necromancers severely lack.

 

The biggest problem I have though is by how unfairly weak corruption skills are for the sacrifice you make to use them..

There's nothing wrong with a Necromancer self inflicting damage/conditions on itself, this has actually been a core mechanic of the class even back in Gw1.

The problem is in Gw2 that mechanic is severely underwhelming, self applying condies can be pretty punishing if your on a glass build like Vipers gear and the transfer trade off just isn't worth it on the vast majority of enemies.

Imo this is something that needs a big buff for PvE.. Necros need a trait or something that diminishes the damage they recieve from conditions their core class can apply by a set percentage, Bleed, Poison, Torment and Burning (only if using Dhuumfire, giving the trait more appeal as well)

Burn resist does not come if you use Scourge spec.. you must have Dhuumfire equiped.

 

The second trait we need is one that amplifies transferred conditions either by increasing their damage output or by multiplying the stacks that get transferred.

This would make the corruptor condi necro far more viable and much faster at stacking conditions since they'll now be able to spike stack them which is something they can only really do atm with Epidemic.. This is a more than fair trade off for having to self punish and combined with the first trait will make this sacrificial playstyle actually viable and powerful which is what it should be.

Another function of this trait that would be a neccessity too would be to make the Necromancer immune to outside condi cleanse.

 

As someone who's played with corruption skills for a long time now I will gladly express how much it p***** me off trying to get my conditions out there in group content when they are constantly getting ripped off my character by other players.

Every condi I loose diminishes my potential damage and negates the entire point of the Necromancers self sacrificing nature.

This is actually one of the biggest character flaws with the Necromancer class and one of the few cases in the game where other players can really mess with someones ability to deal damage.. Necromancers badly need some kind of defense against this.

 

It feels far more like i'm fighting against both hostile NPC's and other players when trying to play this way and that makes it so that anyone playing corruption Necros is going to negatively view other players in general because they can screw up their condition stacking so easily.. and not just that either.

Pulling conditions from other players to the Necromancer so the Necromancer can transfer them is another mechanic that's made completely irrelevant because of random condi cleanse..

 

Oh and don't even get me started on how many times I've had my consume conditions screwed out of it's bonus healing!!

Seriously.. Necro's badly need some kind of immunity to outside condi cleanse.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > ANet's choices to stick to the fondamentally flawed design of the necromancer traped it into mediocrity. I'm not saying that there is no advantage to this mediocrity but it lock the necromancer out of the possibility to be able to specialize and thus to be able to compete fairly with other profession when highly specialized builds are needed.

> >

> > But scourge does the opposite escaping the mediocrity and its currently doing worse than reaper depending on where you look......

> > This leads me to think that your statement is kind of not completely true the fact that reaper is doing better than scourge right now says other wise.

>

> I disagree with that, scourge is still mediocre and continue to follow the rule that keep the necromancer into mediocrity. It's not because it doesn't have a shroud with a 2nd health bar that shades ain't doing the same thing than shroud. It's only strong if you stack scourges. It doesn't have great damage, nor great survivability and it's support isn't really competitive. And fondamentally the shade isn't very different than the shroud, since it try to do everything at the same time and especially carry most of the defensive aspect of the scourge.

 

So does this mean that technically speaking the f skill mechanic is not completely to blame with what holds necromancer to such a limited standard. Because you have 2 shrouds and shades which are completely moved away from shrouds and even in this case defensive utility or weapon skills were still not provided. What could have been its place we see just boon corruption shoved onto everything.

 

>

> > Also what about the passive shadow nerfs to conditional defense which all forums of necromancers use before HoT and how some conditions are still not updated to meet the gameplay that is found now in 2019. The lack of top end skill potential due to having to throw more boon corruption into necromancers kit to balance boons on 8 other professions and how these tools are not useful in pve but still hinder the top end potential of the skills they are tied too.

> >

> > Its not just the shroud bar its far more than that.

>

> The difference is that because your main defensive mechanism is your special mechanism, and there is no way to get rid of this fact, the necromancer can't be allowed to leave what I call "mediocrity". Other professions can choose to have defensive skills or not (not mesmer but it seem that ANet turn a blind eye on this fact...), this allow them to effectively specialize and ANet consider that it's a fair enough trade off to allow them superior performance when they specialize.

 

Yet the factors of conditional defense which worked decently in the past has become weaker which is also a fact that you cant get rid of. Chill, cripple, fear are not where near as effective as they use to be.

 

I wouldn't say that it cant be allowed to gain defensive skills more so that anet just chooses to give it boon corruption over true defensive skills because really up till spell breaker the main tool against boons was necromancer. ITs unique feature got turned into a balance tool and splattered all over the place. If you just give it some defensive modern weapon skills and utility, which dont have to be tied to the f skills at all like almost all other professions have. They dont have to remove the current way the f skills work to do this. There are different levels of defense that a skill can provide based on effects and duration etc.

 

I dont think only the f skills or mechanics are totally to blame i think that yes in some ways it can hold the necromancer to a limit but necro lacks in a ton and mean a ton of other areas that anet either fails to increase to that what would be standard for the game today (death magic rework) or just ignores things (such as updating staff / main hand dagger/ other various utilities.) Then as i said just a moment ago there is the issue of boon corruption being used as a balance tool instead of a feature which takes up space for what could be defensive skills and utility.

[Dadnir.5038]

I won't answer to everything, because I have different opinion and I don't think we will reach a middle point but:

 

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > The difference is that because your main defensive mechanism is your special mechanism, and there is no way to get rid of this fact, the necromancer can't be allowed to leave what I call "mediocrity". Other professions can choose to have defensive skills or not (not mesmer but it seem that ANet turn a blind eye on this fact...), this allow them to effectively specialize and ANet consider that it's a fair enough trade off to allow them superior performance when they specialize.

>

> Yet the factors of conditional defense which worked decently in the past has become weaker which is also a fact that you cant get rid of. Chill, cripple, fear are not where near as effective as they use to be.

>

 

I have a hard time remembering conditional defense ever working decently. In the vanilla game the necromancer's poor survivability was already an issue and all in all the mentality at this time was that the best defense was offense (something that wasn't the necromancer's strong point). In HoT, the necromancer gained a fair bit of damage due to it's lock down ability and that's what increased it's survivability.

 

> I wouldn't say that it cant be allowed to gain defensive skills more so that anet just chooses to give it boon corruption over true defensive skills because really up till spell breaker the main tool against boons was necromancer. ITs unique feature got turned into a balance tool and splattered all over the place. If you just give it some defensive modern weapon skills and utility, which dont have to be tied to the f skills at all like almost all other professions have. They dont have to remove the current way the f skills work to do this. There are different levels of defense that a skill can provide based on effects and duration etc.

>

 

No, the whole boon corrupt thing is not part of the necromancer defensive kit but part of it's "support" kit. ANet stuck to an extremly strict "design thematic" for the necromancer and the defensive philosophy of this strict design is that the necromancer's mitigate damage with health point. They don't avoid, they don't block, they take the hits the hard way and their F skill is their main source of health point to soak those damages.

 

The point is that ANet won't give "modern" defensive weapon skill and utility to the necromancer because the F skill is the main source of health point to soak damage. Their bottom line is that they can fit some way to recover health points on your weapon and utility skills through life siphon.

 

> I dont think only the f skills or mechanics are totally to blame i think that yes in some ways it can hold the necromancer to a limit but necro lacks in a ton and mean a ton of other areas that anet either fails to increase to that what would be standard for the game today (death magic rework) or just ignores things (such as updating staff / main hand dagger/ other various utilities.) Then as i said just a moment ago there is the issue of boon corruption being used as a balance tool instead of a feature which takes up space for what could be defensive skills and utility.

 

I'll concede it to you here, the F skill/mechanic aren't totally to blame, the defensive design philosophy is to blame. Thematically it's very smart to use health point/life force but the game just don't allow the idea to work well and making it the special mechanism was bound to forever lock the necromancer out of the possibility to really specialize.

 

It's just bad developpement choices and strict thematic that put the necromancer in it's predicament. Objectively, the whole boon corruption thing is just icing on the cake.

 

As a player, If I had to reinvent the necromancer, I'd mostly change the main mechanism to not be the whole of the necromancer's defense but a nice defensive bonus when traited.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> I won't answer to everything, because I have different opinion and I don't think we will reach a middle point but:

Understandable

 

> No, the whole boon corrupt thing is not part of the necromancer defensive kit but part of it's "support" kit. ANet stuck to an extremly strict "design thematic" for the necromancer and the defensive philosophy of this strict design is that the necromancer's mitigate damage with health point. They don't avoid, they don't block, they take the hits the hard way and their F skill is their main source of health point to soak those damages.

 

Seems like its more of a balance tool right now. Originally i felt like it was a unique feature to help bring down foes who started to over power you back down to your level or even lower than your level but now you rip boons off people and they immidately replace them while clearing the condis. Also alot of areas in the game still cant make use of them you have pointed this out several times in the past already. Im hoping the split in pve allows them to rework how boon corrupts work in pve to trigger bonus effects or new effects on boonless foes or something so that skills with boon corrupts forced onto them are not just having that weighted aspect of them wasted.

 

> The point is that ANet won't give "modern" defensive weapon skill and utility to the necromancer because the F skill is the main source of health point to soak damage. Their bottom line is that they can fit some way to recover health points on your weapon and utility skills through life siphon.

 

I would be ok with this design being stuck this way if it was completed and there was a bit more QoL along with it for example not just being a ping pong ball to CC if you are going to take the hits. Having a bit more stability or things like retaliation in general would have done magical wonders for a concept like this but they dont provide these things in generous amounts to support the idea of it.

 

Because they dont provide these things the necromancer can soak hits but the idea of using things like life steal and siphons to recover portions of you health also depends on your ability to attack. If you are a ping pong ball you cant attack. IF you are under too much pressure you cant attack. Im not sure its bad design completely its just incomplete design ontop of as you said bad design choices/balance over time.

 

> As a player, If I had to reinvent the necromancer, I'd mostly change the main mechanism to not be the whole of the necromancer's defense but a nice defensive bonus when traited.

 

Honestly this is what i was hoping for with the deathmagic rework but that didnt happen D:

[Anchoku.8142]

I think the real issue is that Necro is particularly good at stacking and WvW loves stacking.

 

It's a game design problem: condi is nerfed in PvE, AoE stacks too well in WvW...

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > As a player, If I had to reinvent the necromancer, I'd mostly change the main mechanism to not be the whole of the necromancer's defense but a nice defensive bonus when traited.

>

> Honestly this is what i was hoping for with the deathmagic rework but that didnt happen D:

 

Well, they can't. They explained it in one of their "monthly conversation topic". The way the game have been created make it impossible for a core profession special mechanic to be modified. Which basically mean that they can't help having the shroud as a 2nd health bar (which also prevent them from making any effort to solve the issue of the shroud being the main defensive mechanism of the necromancer).

 

I was hopping e-spec would be used to allow the necromancer to leave this patern but Reaper probably used the core template to simplify things (which mean that the 2nd health bar can't be removed) and the way they deal with the scourge special mechanic don't leave much hopes to see things getting better.

 

Had reaper shroud made into a kit instead of a transformation like the death shroud (no 2nd life bar but able to access the utility bar even in shroud), the first iteration of _blighter boon_ might have been it's defense and be balanced.

 

Had scourge's shade been focused on support instead of area denial, most of the human ressource dedicated to the various nerfs and visual additions that have been implemented over the year could have been dedicated to make thing better in other area of the game or even other area of the profession.

 

I mean, I can't be the only one to think that's it's nonsense for a shroud that shield your health bar to be your strongest damage source. I also can't be the only one to think that's it's absurd to have instant shade skills deal damage while you retain access to all weapon and utility skills that your profession offer. I don't understand how things have gone to the point where people find natural to have a profession's performance being abysmal out of shroud and are OK with a mechanism being objectively OP under the excuse that the out of shroud performance is abysmal. How can ANet even decently hope to balance that? It's like having the eifel tower upside down, it can only fall or sink, it's can't stand straigth.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > As a player, If I had to reinvent the necromancer, I'd mostly change the main mechanism to not be the whole of the necromancer's defense but a nice defensive bonus when traited.

> >

> > Honestly this is what i was hoping for with the deathmagic rework but that didnt happen D:

>

> Well, they can't. They explained it in one of their "monthly conversation topic". The way the game have been created make it impossible for a core profession special mechanic to be modified. Which basically mean that they can't help having the shroud as a 2nd health bar (which also prevent them from making any effort to solve the issue of the shroud being the main defensive mechanism of the necromancer).

 

This was said initially a long time ago and it was later changed to "we can do it but its not easy to do" Because a lot of the people who built those systems are no longer with the company meaning for them to mess with it its like walking into a web page code you never touched for the first time, Its a mess and its very easy to break things messing with it. But its technically not impossible for them to do, while this is no doubt some sort of limiting factor it does not mean they cant prevent the use of life force from protecting health. Scourge is direct proof that they chan change the mechanic if they want to. I think you are looking more at the concept of removing life force all together which would likely be out of the question.

 

They said the hardest part of doing anything or making any elite spec is designing the parts that live in the f skill space because of the above reasons. Yet they managed to do it twice now and in some cases 3 times for some professions who have seen reworks.

 

Further more death magic could have still been improved to make shroud more defensive through the use of boons, proper damage reduction traits, as well as proper self healing while the hp is protected but they chose to do absolutely or rather almost absolutely none of these things. Instead they turned death magic into a mini game where its low and mid levels are worse than their previous iterations just so the top end could have a slightly and i mean slightly better potential than the previous iteration. They could have had traits change skills within the shroud itself much like how the scepter trait changes the scepter 3 skill when you slot it but they chose not to do things like this.

 

Its not the fact that your hp is protected by the life force meter or that a life force meter exists its just bad and incomplete design choices.

 

>

> I was hopping e-spec would be used to allow the necromancer to leave this patern but Reaper probably used the core template to simplify things (which mean that the 2nd health bar can't be removed) and the way they deal with the scourge special mechanic don't leave much hopes to see things getting better.

>

> Had reaper shroud made into a kit instead of a transformation like the death shroud (no 2nd life bar but able to access the utility bar even in shroud), the first iteration of _blighter boon_ might have been it's defense and be balanced.

 

This bit is confusing to me as blighters boon would effectively still work the same while the only exception being is that now while you are in your kit shroud you can still lose health you gain back from blighters boon.

 

I can understand the idea of reaper being kit based like holo is to make overall better in some aspects but i dont think you picked a good example here with blighters boon as its function would more or less still be the same as using the kit would still likely have some kind of resource cost much like holo forge does.

(This is where i think you are considering the idea of removing life force as a mechanic and not just the shroud hp protection itself because your above statements about hp protection not being able to be undone is invalidated with the existence of scourge.)

I assume that life force would still be a major role in the necromancers kit even if it was not used to protect your health. No profession escapes having a resource mechanic/limiter/function with an elite spec applied why would necromancer? Life force would surely still be tied to that kit as a way to limit or power it. Which still without proper defensive skills, traits, utility, mobility sub par performance.

 

>

> Had scourge's shade been focused on support instead of area denial, most of the human resources dedicated to the various nerfs and visual additions that have been implemented over the year could have been dedicated to make thing better in other area of the game or even other area of the profession.

 

This is true and scourge being bugged for 2 months after release instantly melting people didn't help either. Overall I think this was the doom that set scourge on the path that it is now. The hate for scourge grew to such a level that no amounts of nerfs will ever wash away the blood trail it left behind. Any time that elite is viable in its current design people will want it nerfed. Even if its only in WvW. Scourge should have been redesigned from the moment it was left bugged like that for 2 months to put a bad taste in everyones mouth.

 

>

> I mean, I can't be the only one to think that's it's nonsense for a shroud that shield your health bar to be your strongest damage source. I also can't be the only one to think that's it's absurd to have instant shade skills deal damage while you retain access to all weapon and utility skills that your profession offer. I don't understand how things have gone to the point where people find natural to have a profession's performance being abysmal out of shroud and are OK with a mechanism being objectively OP under the excuse that the out of shroud performance is abysmal. How can ANet even decently hope to balance that? It's like having the eifel tower upside down, it can only fall or sink, it's can't stand straigth.

 

Well of course not half the community does not what shroud to shield your health bar but people cant imagine a necromancer without this function right now because it lacks everywhere else. It simply would not work in all the game modes.

That said im conflicted by your concept of what the necromancer should be because scourge does not have this function of health protection that shroud offers but you want them to lose their weapon skill while shade skills are doing damage or are active which is exactly what the other versions of shroud do already... Or you see them with their shades doing almost nothing in effectiveness other than like tapping people with weakness (based on a older post you wrote)

 

I struggle to understand how you would want to see necromancer and its elites some times to be honest it kind of seems like you dont want them to do anything. other than kind of exists with even less defense then they already have.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

Necro is a decent pick for a raid or fractal group, Reaper has decent damage and Heal scourge is pretty good, however The issue is Heal scourge is really not that good compared to Renegade,Firebrand or Chrono and Reapers damage is not as good as Weaver,Soulbeast,Deadeye or Dragonhunter

[Thornwolf.9721]

Necromancer feels un-finished and dated, It has never felt that good to play it even back at launch. I always hated running necromancer because of how clunky it was and unfortunately they never solved the issues of the class and just compounded it by adding onto the foundation. The class need a hard look at and rework on its utilities and weapons because as it stands now they are kind of a one trick pony.

[LucianDK.8615]

i think the scourge lifeforce system is a step in a better direction, not shackling us to a second healthbar that makes us too durable. Also feels better because a scourge doesnt lose lifeforce from being hit.

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> Elite specs could have been a mean to escape this poor fate but ANet didn't choose to exploit this possibility and instead choose to walk further on this already flawed path.

Correct, but imo they still can with Scourge.

I was thinking, what if they change the trait: [Demonic Lore](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Demonic_Lore) to: [sand Cascade](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Cascade) (F3) and [Desert Shroud](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Desert_Shroud) (F5) has 90% lower Barrier application. Torment you inflict deals increased damage and causes your foes to burn. Burning you inflict deals increased damage.

 

You'll lose a lot of Barrier defence (and support), but gain condi DPS (what the Scourge is heavily lacking right now). And if you really need some extra defence, you can always trait for [Harbinger Shroud](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Harbinger_Shroud) next to it, which will make that trait more interesting as well, then.

[Tukaram.8256]

My main is, and always has been, a necro. For PvE I love him. Necro/minion master. My critters stay out front taking aggro, and I hang back casting marks. I solo with him all the time, and he is good in groups. My only avatar that could survive in HoT. PoF is much easier but he is still the best character, for me.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

 

I've pinpoint the reason we have a different point of view. Where you see the shroud, I see the life force. You differenciate shrouding yourself behind life force and using life force to gain barrier While I don't. I take a shortcut and simply say: "whether it's core, reaper or scourge using your life force to shield yourself is your main defense".

 

And for me that's the source of the problem, as long as the life force is the main source of defense of the necromancer and it's e-specs, there is no possibilities for the necromancer to specialize because you just can't remove this main source of defense unless it's from utility skills that would consume LF.

 

> I struggle to understand how you would want to see necromancer and its elites some times to be honest it kind of seems like you dont want them to do anything. other than kind of exists with even less defense then they already have.

 

I don't mind the core necromancer shielding itself in shroud. Honnestly, it's fine. That said I'd like to see the power of the necromancer less concentrated into it's shroud with some damage potential added into the core weapon and core utility skills. The death shroud not doing that much damage is fine because, however you put it, it's mainly a defensive tool.

 

I'd like the reaper to be the glassiest e-spec. Unable to shield itself but, through traits able to achieve incredible sustain at the cost of it's dps. _Blighter boon_ would have been able to achieve that for a reaper without 2nd health bar when it was affected by it's allies incoming boons.

 

As for scourge, like I said, as long as they remove most of the damage from the shades skills, It would be fine.

 

The problem of the necromancer is that defense and offense depend on life force. Core being a generalist that can't specialize is fine, however there is a need to let e-spec "sacrifice" defense or offense in order to specialize into something. What I want is simply that reaper become an offensive e-spec that have sacrificed it's survivability to pack some punch and scourge become a support that sacrifice a bit it's offense in order to support it's team. I know ANet tried to give this feel with various awful QoL nerf but the balance of the profession itself is wrong, having life force make the necromancer stronger in all aspects is fondamentally wrong, there is a need for a loss to be able to reach new heights and the loss (and gain) that ANet gave us up to now are just half-baked. Which is why the necromancer and it's e-specs stay in a realm of mediocrity however they build.

[LucianDK.8615]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

>

> I've pinpoint the reason we have a different point of view. Where you see the shroud, I see the life force. You differenciate shrouding yourself behind life force and using life force to gain barrier While I don't. I take a shortcut and simply say: "whether it's core, reaper or scourge using your life force to shield yourself is your main defense".

>

> And for me that's the source of the problem, as long as the life force is the main source of defense of the necromancer and it's e-specs, there is no possibilities for the necromancer to specialize because you just can't remove this main source of defense unless it's from utility skills that would consume LF.

>

> > I struggle to understand how you would want to see necromancer and its elites some times to be honest it kind of seems like you dont want them to do anything. other than kind of exists with even less defense then they already have.

>

> I don't mind the core necromancer shielding itself in shroud. Honnestly, it's fine. That said I'd like to see the power of the necromancer less concentrated into it's shroud with some damage potential added into the core weapon and core utility skills. The death shroud not doing that much damage is fine because, however you put it, it's mainly a defensive tool.

>

> I'd like the reaper to be the glassiest e-spec. Unable to shield itself but, through traits able to achieve incredible sustain at the cost of it's dps. _Blighter boon_ would have been able to achieve that for a reaper without 2nd health bar when it was affected by it's allies incoming boons.

>

> As for scourge, like I said, as long as they remove most of the damage from the shades skills, It would be fine.

>

> The problem of the necromancer is that defense and offense depend on life force. Core being a generalist that can't specialize is fine, however there is a need to let e-spec "sacrifice" defense or offense in order to specialize into something. What I want is simply that reaper become an offensive e-spec that have sacrificed it's survivability to pack some punch and scourge become a support that sacrifice a bit it's offense in order to support it's team. I know ANet tried to give this feel with various awful QoL nerf but the balance of the profession itself is wrong, having life force make the necromancer stronger in all aspects is fondamentally wrong, there is a need for a loss to be able to reach new heights and the loss (and gain) that ANet gave us up to now are just half-baked. Which is why the necromancer and it's e-specs stay in a realm of mediocrity however they build.

 

Lifeforce is just a resource, nothing more. It could be compared with revenant energy, warrior adrenaline or thief initiative.

[Axl.8924]

I don-t personally like dadnirs ideas for reaper in that having some tools is needed to survive.

 

If thats the case then warriors need to be heavily nerfed, as well as guardians holosmiths and soulbeast.

 

I can understand the whole bit of reaper is good at damage, but if they cannot survive they become punching bags.

 

Also im not 100% convinced that scourge cannot become condi. I can accept the idea of scourge sacrificing dps to become full on support, but it better be really good and not so niche that not even fractals would want them. I'd love if there was some way to make it so changing traits effects your sandshades and abilities massively nerfs dmg and buffs the support traits making you highly desireable in pve.

 

Also: Until they fix the mechanics and overhaul for pve so that it doesn't suck to cast, i feel like scourge is going to be in a very rough place.