Fall damage ????

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> False equivalency here. Figuring out why people stop using a trait isn’t the same as trying to figure out why people aren’t playing a type of content. People select traits because it gives them a benefit or stop selecting because it stops being as beneficial. Why people don’t play content is much more complex and gets into motives of rewards, difficulty, competition with new content, or other reasons. Traits then are more binary, especially if you can easily see the replacement for an unused trait (gliding or mounts which makes a fall damage trait obsolete for those accounts). Figuring out why people don’t play content gets into trying to figure out motives when there may be multiple motives and those may not be clearly expressed by the players. However with fall damage traits you can see when people start gliding/using mounts and they no longer are falling and the trait, even if selected, is rarely activated.

 

 

Yes, the traits are now less useful than they were in the era before gliders and mounts. Still, they do get selected (one of the reasons being that they offer other things as well, in addition to fall reduction), and, when selected, they get triggered, even accidentally, all the time, in the context of normal play. If we add to that the fact that, as already mentioned, there are other effects offered by those traits, and that _other_ traits that compete with them also keep changing, you end up with pretty much the same situation as people running/not running content - you can never really be sure why that happens.

 

It would be next to impossible to be certain when people selected/used in play fall damage reduction effects on purpose, without a much more dedicated research than just checking some ingame data. A research that would require so much effort compared to gain, that i'm quite confident it wasn't done at all.

 

My take on that is just as i mentioned before - the traits are simply not used in the content Anet is actively looking at, so they thought they are useless. And even though now people pointed out it may not be so, they have already commited to this, so, as usual, the feedback will get simply ignored.

 

 

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> > False equivalency here. Figuring out why people stop using a trait isn’t the same as trying to figure out why people aren’t playing a type of content. People select traits because it gives them a benefit or stop selecting because it stops being as beneficial. Why people don’t play content is much more complex and gets into motives of rewards, difficulty, competition with new content, or other reasons. Traits then are more binary, especially if you can easily see the replacement for an unused trait (gliding or mounts which makes a fall damage trait obsolete for those accounts). Figuring out why people don’t play content gets into trying to figure out motives when there may be multiple motives and those may not be clearly expressed by the players. However with fall damage traits you can see when people start gliding/using mounts and they no longer are falling and the trait, even if selected, is rarely activated.

>

>

> Yes, the traits are now less useful than they were in the era before gliders and mounts. Still, they do get selected (one of the reasons being that they offer other things as well, in addition to fall reduction), and, when selected, they get triggered, even accidentally, all the time, in the context of normal play. If we add to that the fact that, as already mentioned, there are other effects offered by those traits, and that _other_ traits that compete with them also keep changing, you end up with pretty much the same situation as people running/not running content - you can never really be sure why that happens.

>

> It would be next to impossible to be certain when people selected/used in play fall damage reduction effects on purpose, without a much more dedicated research than just checking some ingame data. A research that would require so much effort compared to gain, that i'm quite confident it wasn't done at all.

>

> My take on that is just as i mentioned before - the traits are simply not used in the content Anet is actively looking at, so they thought they are useless. And even though now people pointed out it may not be so, they have already commited to this, so, as usual, the feedback will get simply ignored.

>

>

 

ANet can see what triggers a trait. If the trait has been selected and the fall damage portion is now rarely activated or it’s only activated by small unimportant drops then it’s obvious that it’s obsolete and can be replaced with something else. In addition, players deselection of a trait once new game mechanics appear will also point to a trait being obsolete.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> ANet can see what triggers a trait. If the trait has been selected and the fall damage portion is now rarely activated or it’s only activated by small unimportant drops then it’s obvious that it’s obsolete and can be replaced with something else.

You're vastly overestimating Anet's ability to get data out of this game. No, not everything is logged, that's not practical. I could possibly believe system logging things like trait triggering. I do not believe system would check for how "important" the drop was (or even associate things like that with trait activation - that kind of very specific logging would require rewriting the logging service every time you changed a trait. I just don;t see this happening). Even if it did, that by itself might not be a good indication either (for example, while i do use glider when falling, i usually deactivate it before i hit the ground, because it makes landing faster. Getting damage for over half of my HPs is quite normal. Would that be considered "important"?)

 

> In addition, players deselection of a trait once new game mechanics appear will also point to a trait being obsolete.

Or to a new trait being OP. Or to a certain shift in meta builds. Or to many other things.

Also, remember (we _have_ been told that at some point), that most players do not bother with changing their traits every time something happens in the game - only the very small number of veteran/hardcore players do so.

 

So, again, any data Anet might get would still be far from being conclusive.

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> > ANet can see what triggers a trait. If the trait has been selected and the fall damage portion is now rarely activated or it’s only activated by small unimportant drops then it’s obvious that it’s obsolete and can be replaced with something else.

> You're vastly overestimating Anet's ability to get data out of this game. No, not everything is logged, that's not practical. I could possibly believe system logging things like trait triggering. I do not believe system would check for how "important" the drop was (or even associate things like that with trait activation - that kind of very specific logging would require rewriting the logging service every time you changed a trait. I just don;t see this happening). Even if it did, that by itself might not be a good indication either (for example, while i do use glider when falling, i usually deactivate it before i hit the ground, because it makes landing faster. Getting damage for over half of my HPs is quite normal. Would that be considered "important"?)

>

> > In addition, players deselection of a trait once new game mechanics appear will also point to a trait being obsolete.

> Or to a new trait being OP. Or to a certain shift in meta builds. Or to many other things.

> Also, remember (we _have_ been told that at some point), that most players do not bother with changing their traits every time something happens in the game - only the very small number of veteran/hardcore players do so.

>

> So, again, any data Anet might get would still be far from being conclusive.

 

They can still see how often a trait is selected and how often it activates and if either is more or less over time. Which is certainly more information available to them than a claim that “Basically, the devs that still do play this game do not use this trait, so they (mistakenly) believe noone else does as well.” which was your original post and was the point that I was refuting,

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > I've personally "killed" dozens, if not hundreds, of enemy players in wvw by leading them off of cliffs (before gliding). Sure some had fall damage traits, but most not.

>

> So long ago you've met someone stupid in the game, good job (still doubt it was anywhere even close to "hundreds") :D The trait is still useless.

 

Doubt what you like based on yor feelings, I will stick with facts...such as the fact that your last sentence is objectively false.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

Ol, people seem so surprised. This was announced weeks ago.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > I've personally "killed" dozens, if not hundreds, of enemy players in wvw by leading them off of cliffs (before gliding). Sure some had fall damage traits, but most not.

> >

> > So long ago you've met someone stupid in the game, good job (still doubt it was anywhere even close to "hundreds") :D The trait is still useless.

>

> Doubt what you like based on yor feelings, I will stick with facts...such as the fact that your last sentence is objectively false.

 

"Facts" based on your vague memories or made up stories, fine, whatever you say.

 

It's objectively true and anet seems to agree. :)

[AgentMoore.9453]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> "Facts" based on your memories

 

No need to be like that. You said the trait was useless, and Ashen said they use the trait. Therefore, it is untrue that the trait is objectively useless (used by no one or without purpose). I also use the fall damage reduction traits (and revive speed traits for that matter), though more for PvE exploration and creative combat than anything else.

 

Look at jumping mushrooms, updrafts, and ley lines, for example. For someone with a Skyscale, these probably seem unnecessary or useless mobility methods by comparison. But say ArenaNet decided to take them all out, leaving people hanging who had come to enjoy or rely on them. It'd feel bad. That is why this feels bad.

 

 

[Linken.6345]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> Ol, people seem so surprised. This was announced weeks ago.

 

Well its not like some people dont read the forum and only now got wind of it... strange that

 

Oh dont be supriced if there pop up even more threads next week when it goes live btw.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"AgentMoore.9453" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > "Facts" based on your memories

>

> No need to be like that. You said the trait was useless, and Ashen said they use the trait. Therefore, it is untrue that the trait is objectively useless (used by no one or without purpose). I also use the fall damage reduction traits (and revive speed traits for that matter), though more for PvE exploration and creative combat than anything else.

 

 

Like what? And why did you cut a word from the middle of the sentence you're quoting? I said "based on your vague memories", because that's all he has here. He wrote:

"**"killed" dozens, if not hundreds, of enemy players in wvw by leading them off of cliffs (before gliding)**"

 

"dozens if not hundreds" said after few years might as well be combined 5-10 kills on seperate occasions boosted by his... yup, vague memories. And we know it was years ago, because he says it was before gliding (so even when he tries to find an example, he still has just something from pre-HoT days). This passive is irrelevant and all he has as an argument are his -most probably "boosted"- cloudy memories from old days.

It IS objectively useless, because what you two say is based on playing against bad players who just miiiiight keep jumping to their deaths from cliffs in wvw. It's simply not a valid argument. The one about jumping puzzles was better and it still falls short.

 

> Look at jumping mushrooms, updrafts, and ley lines, for example. For someone with a Skyscale, these probably seem unnecessary or useless mobility methods by comparison. But say ArenaNet decided to take them all out, leaving people hanging who had come to enjoy or rely on them. It'd feel bad. That is why this feels bad.

 

Not even nearly the same.

[Teratus.2859]

> @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > Bond of Faith pretty much removes fall damage entirely.

>

> Not in WvW, though...

 

True, and main reason I disagree with this change too.

 

I used fall damage traits in PvE on rare occasion but mostly for the secondary effect of creating a AoE attack or launch effect etc.

WvW is where that mostly was uyseful too though.

[Cuks.8241]

I would not call the traits completely useless and I also find them kinda fun. There are other much more useless traits. I don't really take them for the fall damage reduction but many have also other, strong effects.

One very useful application are JPs but I would understand why they would want that removed. Wvw; niche but it is nice when you get to actually use it on purpose and get benefit. Open world; its just fun when you jump on a mob and secondary effect triggers.

I don't see the harm in them but I will not cry over them also. Don't really see the need to tackle them at all unless there are some technical or balance reasons I don't know about.

There are many useless stuff in the game that could be removed before these traits and actually give benefit of less clutter. For example there are many filler material items that just clutter material storage but have almost no real application and could be easily replaced by something else or just removed. Maybe we could than add some other items under materials which they are already by application but not by storage rules.

[Funky.4861]

@Sobx yes actually, i use the FDR traits on my mes and condi necro builds. Due to camera angles (and just how we perceive distances) judging a vertical distance is harder than a horizontal one, so it's quite easy to think you'll survive a fall when you maybe only a few units over the limit and instead end up splatted on the ground.

 

To those who support the removal of the trait i ask- why? What is the functional reason for it's removal? It's not like there aren't useless traits in every class which are seldom taken...

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Funky.4861" said:

> To those who support the removal of the trait i ask- why? What is the functional reason for it's removal? It's not like there aren't useless traits in every class which are seldom taken...

 

It makes traversal and especially WvW traversal more meaningful. Fall damage traits, plus gliding, plus mounts meant in WvW you'd have to be a big moron to die to fall damage. Now heights might actually be of significance again and the leeway for error is smaller.

 

In PvE fall damage traits were not needed in any way given the vast amount of new movement options combined with gliding and fall damage immunity on mounts.

 

Better to have one common fall damage baseline accross all classes and builds and allow the developers to work and create maps around that. Other useless traits do not affect traversal and map design as fall damage traits do.

 

As far as the argument about needing expansions... I really do not care about players who are on 7 year old game versions without the ability or willingness to upgrade to PoF (which now comes with a free HoT). It's neither a reasonable business approach, nor is it a reasonable design limitation which should be taken into account. The game is cheap enough as is with no spending requirements.

[Mil.3562]

Many said the fall damage skills are moot just because they don't really need them or never use them at all? In that case, i can come up with a list of at least 50-60 trait and utility skills, across all professions, that i never used at all. So they are all considered moot and have to be removed too?

 

ANet, what is the real purpose of letting the community know in advance before these patches are out? For feedbacks? Discussions? Theories crafting? To pretend that you care?

 

If every time ANet has no intention at all to reverse or amend their patches, regardless of what the players want or how they feel, please stop all these pre-release patch notifications. Do not waste our time further.

 

And, stop pretending that you care. It's getting old. Really.

[guildwarrior.6304]

I noticed after dying a few times...I was too reliant on that when I was too lazy to deploy a glider haha

 

[Ashantara.8731]

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > > Bond of Faith pretty much removes fall damage entirely.

> >

> > Not in WvW, though...

>

> True, and main reason I disagree with this change too.

>

> I used fall damage traits in PvE on rare occasion but mostly for the secondary effect of creating a AoE attack or launch effect etc.

> WvW is where that mostly was uyseful too though.

 

Never said it was "useful" in WvW, just that you can't avoid fall damage there due to "Bond of Faith" not existing in WvW (and even if it did, it wouldn't help you in enemy territory where you can't glide).

[Teratus.2859]

> @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > > @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > > > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > > > Bond of Faith pretty much removes fall damage entirely.

> > >

> > > Not in WvW, though...

> >

> > True, and main reason I disagree with this change too.

> >

> > I used fall damage traits in PvE on rare occasion but mostly for the secondary effect of creating a AoE attack or launch effect etc.

> > WvW is where that mostly was uyseful too though.

>

> Never said it was "useful" in WvW, just that you can't avoid fall damage there due to "Bond of Faith" not existing in WvW (and even if it did, it wouldn't help you in enemy territory where you can't glide).

 

It can be in the right circumstances, a rarely used but effective tactic none the less.

[Ubi.4136]

The whole reason for the nerf is they want to add a game mechanic that fall damage reduction would make trivial...so they are removing it. They do stuff like this all the time. It honestly wouldn't surprise me to see it as a map specific mastery for some saga thing in the future. Like removing tomes, which later became the firebrand elite, or nerfing plague which was completely reworked and turned in to the scourge elite.

[Hashberry.4510]

Its always fascinating to see what players do with the lower profile features.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Hashberry.4510" said:

> Its always fascinating to see what players do with the lower profile features.

Apparently, not to Anet.

 

[Menadena.7482]

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

> I don't even remember the last time I took fall damage

 

Probably the same time as most of us: doing something REALLY stupid and you forgot to deploy a glider before impact. :)

[Lottie.5370]

> @"Funky.4861" said:

> Not everyone has mounts and/or gliding. If you bought the core game but not the expansions (for whatever reason) then you're stuffed; it's a bit pay-to-win imo, or at least, pay-to-not-be-frustrated-when-you-don't-think-a-fall-will-kill-you-but-it-does. Just roll the FDR into the lower tier minor if it 'complicates' trait selection, that way nobody loses anything. Or remove fall damage from the game.

 

Except for core maps were designed to not need it. It's not pay to win.

[Mathias.9657]

I am not aware of fall dmg trait changes but I can tell you my experiences with drastic changes like this in other MMOs.

 

1) It is a stupid idea to remove fall dmg reduction traits unless you add it to a mastery or some such. If for example in WoW my rogue had its light footed trait removed or pandaren got their bouncy trait removed, it would just feel WRONG. Players are already used to these mechanics, taking it away is bad.

2) I remember when Rift removed fall damage and it felt so freaking weird and made 0 sense, I don't care if we are in a fake fantasy world, 0 fall damage just feels bad when you are jumping from insane heights.

 

We don't have to reach witcher 3 or skyrim levels of oops I scaled a 10 ft cliff on accident now I'm dead and lost all my progress **destroys keyboard** but fall damage has a place and so does reduction methods. I get it, we have glider, mounts, and can even jump off our mounts to glide. But really, what is the point of this change? Its like WoW's needless addiction to pruning everything, just stop, BEFORE it becomes a problem. Flavor isn't bad.. neither is player choice. What the hell is a fall dmg reduction trait hurting?

 

Is this another spaghetti code thing where we have to remove something to add something?

[Funky.4861]

@Lottie you can fall to your death in any map, even with the FDR trait. What it lets you do is survive some of those falls instead of having to wp and run back, thus saving time, patience and a slight amount of money. The core maps argument is dead in the water; you can fall to your death in queensdale, LA, literally any map in the game.