Mbelch.9028 Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 > @"NationalNacho.5972" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"NationalNacho.5972" said: > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > @"NationalNacho.5972" said: > > > > > > > Mantra of pain should be deleted from the game - 12 might, 3-5k instant cast ranged dmg x2 at the low cost of only a 1.5s cast time > > > > > > > > > > > > > > only trashcans play mantra mesmer > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do you post something before taking look at the facts? > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra_of_Pain > > > > > > > > > > Ok, an extra second to charge, cant remember the dmg spike though > > > > > > > > + he gives the biggest hit, fore every 5k crit I got on mantra I got hits for 600. > > > > Its one of thse things where X class being mesmer Has good this this and that, and other want it gone. > > > > But they dont wanna give us Y and Z that other classes have. They are content with making mes worse and worse. > > > > I was content playing chrono in pvp mate, but the nerfs push us to more stupid and stupid builds. > > > > Nobody mentions that half the kitten traits and abilities are so unreliable that even when you land them then they still can whiff. > > > > ExAmPlEsS. > > > > Gs2 -> it can just bounce to allies/pets/clones and just hit once. > > > > Gs4 -> sword can just miss, and berserker just clip you for 2hits without dodging dealing almost no damage > > > > THen even dmg modifiers like dmg on vulnerability can be cleansed, complex is under 50% and on crit only, then there is 5% when you have more hp -> again unreliable. > > > > The only way to proc all these traits and to force them to work is to actually stun and 1shot. > > > > > > mantra of pain is one of the most single handed broken offensive utilities in the game, always has been. > > > > > > Mantra power chrono was significantly more brain dead to play than current core mantra mesmer - I hate the changes they did to chrono shatters but the damage modifiers from slow and the synergy with MoD/MoP was free, low skill, instant cast high damage > > > > You instantly assumed I played chrono 1shot build, good way to make you look dumb. > > As I said, take away good stuff dont fix the bad stuff. > > Propose reasonable nerfs to fix the issue. > > Propose reasonable buffs to fix the issue. > > "You instantly assumed I played chrono 1shot build" > > The reason I assumed you played chrono one shot was due to your instant defensive take to defend MoP, which historically is always the stance of low tier mesmers who like "meme" killing actual good players with low counterplay 1 shots and thinking theyre good for doing so. With that said, the only other relevant chrono build in recent memory that used MoP was the chrono bunker build, which was still a low skill build that was hard carried by MoP (and Chaos trait line) for all the same reasons, it gave it relevant, spammable, low counterplay damage to force CDs adequately with the added benefit of procing restorative mantras every 2 seconds for massive Hp/s. > > Now, ill humor you. Core power mes is fine as a build, I dont even see (any) mesmer builds as a problematic from a comp/high tier perspective for say mATs since the most recent patch. So specifically the issues people have arent from a top tier perspective and/or are from a counter play/anti fun perspective. With that said, one of the lowest counter play, anti fun things that brings power mesmer damage over the top is - Mantra of pain. Power core mes and power mirage do not one shot meta/near meta builds at all without mantra of pain (might stacks + 2 charges) - So it is an obvious thing to target in my opinion. I think the stealth is, while potentially annoying, a lesser factor since its not going to influence much in conquest and core mesmer already has limited survivability after the first 15 or so seconds of a fight. > > "Propose reasonable nerfs to fix the issue. Propose reasonable buffs to fix the issue." > > Slightly hypocritical when your initial post in this thread was only an attempt to devalue my post, and youve added no actual suggestions yourself. You have just provided some minor anecdotal accounts for why you feel like power mesmer is fine. Im not going to sit here and dismiss what youve posted but I dont think your accounts assume optimal or near optimal play (since you mention missing abilities... that arent that hard to land consistently, especially given the tools mesmer has to setup effective damage). Now I didnt elaborate fully on my reasoning for "delete mantra of pain" in my initial post but there is still ample evidence in that original post that I would assume most intelligent folk could put together that the skill does too much for little cost and little risk - It is extremely bloated. > > "Its often easier to attack the person than it is to debate what they have to say." - You attacked the incorrect minor mistake in mantra channel time, instead of attempting to understand the thesis of my original post. > > To continue humoring you - Mantra of pain is conceptually broken. You could "fix" it in two potential ways; > > 1. Nerf the numbers into oblivion (pvp/pve split) Reduce the might stacks, and damage it does. Essentially removing it from viability - Easy to execute, good outcome for game play, trash outcome for the skill (its useless). > > 2. Rework how the damage is delivered; IE mantra of pain is now a projectile or it works like it currently does but has a delayed effect similar to scourge shades that have a small aoe ring that fills out before the damage lands (Allowing counter play). In this option it still greatly nerfs 1 shot builds due to the (obvious) telegraph but builds that existed like the previously mentioned bunker chrono would have still benefited from MoP working like this, since it would still provide the consistent damage and healing. > > (If they ever did re work how mantras apply their damage/effect they should do the same to mantra of distraction since people have similar complaints about the low counter play) > > Random side note; Chrono once was (post bunker chrono) a really fun, rewarding, high skill cap, high floor spec to play and it has been reduced to an abomination spec that feels horrible to play, and for who knows what reasons. But to save myself time ill just quote myself; "I have been consistent with what ive always preached, that is, changing the "feel" of classes that a lot of people have grown to love over a period of 7 years while failing to address the specific desirable outcome is a kitten shame. change is good, and understandable when it makes a difference and reaches the desired outcome. Its just too bad historically thats not been the case from the view of a lot of the people I play with and speak to - Which leads to resentment." There's literally no arguing with this ^ /thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eurantien.4632 Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 Reckless is legit one of the best forum warriors. Like Legend tier. This dude is Gold 1 at best and can't see he his outclassed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted December 5, 2019 Author Share Posted December 5, 2019 > @"Liza.2758" said: > u know i'm not defending the build but u can't really say there is no counter play > > the counter play is simply ur reaction. u will most likely say how can u react to that in 1 - 2 sec. > > The instant dead is very common in League. 1 shot from stealth 1 shot from brush 1 shot from dark area. > > super fast reaction is part of what determined how good player is > > [ ) > > something like this. No. You clearly don't play Guild Wars 2 if you believe there is any counter play to any of this. Watch the first 60s of this video for an example of what I mean. Notice that you can't even see where the Mesmer is at all or where he was or where he is going, and by the time damage lands there is quite seriously "Zero reaction time." I mean this nasty disgusting bull@#$% is worse than Deadeye or Soulbeasts ever were. With Deadeyes and Soulbeasts, at least you can see them from time to time and get to hear noises or see animations before you get blown up. And even DE & Soulbeast damage doesn't actually instantly kill you. You may see your health quickly drop, but there is actually reaction time. This Power Mesmer #$%^ seriously gives you 0 reaction time. It's garbage and completely worthy of a hotfix like CI was given. > @"RisenHowl.2419" said: > Let me preface this by saying yes, i understand it's a meme build. It's easy to kill when you have invuln for the initial burst. Just Dodge. Only bad players die against power mes. Bring a reveal. Watch the minimap. etc. > > GW2 pvp player population is at an all time low, imagine someone starting out in pvp running into this. Why on earth would they come back? > > > @"KrHome.1920" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > I am seriously getting tired of builds that can stealth in at you from 4000 some range and instantly drop your health from 100% to 0% with no tells. > > > > It's a bad design that makes for a bad game that isn't fun to play. > Am I the only one who thinks that this is a trollpost? It's definitely not a troll post. I'm being 100% serious. And while we're talking about "trolling" this stupid high stealth uptime build also has of late been encouraging players to abuse speedhack & even telehack. Yeah, I'm an old player and I know the game well. I've known the game well for years and I keep up on every patch update. I know how far a Core Mesmer can realistically move across a map legitimately, whether it is stealthed or not. When I send a Mesmer on respawn from my home node in Legacy, and the dude is seriously back on top of me in like 10s,1HKOing me from stealth, that's enormously jacked up speed hack or tele hack, one or the other. That is not possible with just Blink & Super Speed. So yeah I'm pissed off about it. Because in this cause, speed hack and tele hack starts turning into this "auto kill" hack when it's being used on a build like Power Core Mesmer. It's straight ruining not only ranked, but like unranked and ATs. It needs to be dealt with ASAP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > I am seriously getting tired of builds that can stealth in at you from 4000 some range and instantly drop your health from 100% to 0% with no tells. > > It's a bad design that makes for a bad game that isn't fun to play. > Eh, I think its mostly tolerable, as long as you see them stealth, because all the damage is frontloaded and they have to blink or otherwise be near you to maximize it, which puts them in arms reach with no defense. They have to be within 1200 range to burst you, which is a reasonable area to scan unless they start from behind an obstacle. I do, however, agree that it can easily be frustrating, especially when the general consensus for other classes doing this from stealth is that it's unacceptable. I guess we can nerf power spike so people cant just mash a button to add DPS ~~without aiming~~ and go from there? I'm not for touching power variants of mesmer too much though. It's one of the only high risk specs they have and I think playing high risk should be encouraged. Edit: Forgot mantras now require you to aim iirc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted December 5, 2019 Author Share Posted December 5, 2019 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > I am seriously getting tired of builds that can stealth in at you from 4000 some range and instantly drop your health from 100% to 0% with no tells. > > > > It's a bad design that makes for a bad game that isn't fun to play. > > > > Eh, I think its mostly tolerable, as long as you see them stealth, because all the damage is frontloaded and they have to blink or otherwise be near you to maximize it, which puts them in arms reach with no defense. They have to be within 1200 range to burst you, which is a reasonable area to scan unless they start from behind an obstacle. > I do, however, agree that it can easily be frustrating, especially when the general consensus for other classes doing this from stealth is that it's unacceptable. > I guess we can nerf power spike so people cant just mash a button to add DPS ~~without aiming~~ and go from there? I'm not for touching power variants of mesmer too much though. It's one of the only high risk specs they have and I think playing high risk should be encouraged. > > Edit: Forgot mantras now require you to aim iirc Dude they're coming in from way further out than 1200 Blink range. The stealth uptime on this build is A LOT higher than it used to be in previous years. I don't even necessarily care about its damage output. I care that I can't SEE it at all, not on my mini map or visually anywhere in the screen, before it comes from around a blind spot at 4000 range or some shit, and blows you up. It's actually worse when it arrives into say a 3v3 type situation. Because you have no idea where he is going to target. You could even see the Mesmer stealth, but you have absolutely no idea who the guy is going to target. I mean a Deadeye "marks" you before you start getting hit, even if it's just a split second before you get attacked. Soulbeasts use "Sic Em" and you can see it appear on your bar. But this Power Mesmer nonsense seriously has ZERO tells at all. Like there actually is no counter play whatsoever. It deals so much damage that the only way for 3 people to feasibly counter play the Mesmer's approach is if all 3 players begin burning blocks and dodges and other defensive CDs for the duration of the stealth, to make sure they aren't the one targeted. Do you realize how powerful that is? to be able to pressure & bait that many CDs from your opponent simply by stealthing near them? It's too much. Upon this, the Mesmer in that video, I wanted to point out that his burst is actually slow in that video compared to some of the better Mesmers we have rolling around. There are some of them, like Mur as example, who when you get burst, you seriously instantly die. Health goes from 100% to 0% immediately. There is no reaction time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"Liza.2758" said: > > u know i'm not defending the build but u can't really say there is no counter play > > > > the counter play is simply ur reaction. u will most likely say how can u react to that in 1 - 2 sec. > > > > The instant dead is very common in League. 1 shot from stealth 1 shot from brush 1 shot from dark area. > > > > super fast reaction is part of what determined how good player is > > > > [ ) > > > > something like this. > > No. You clearly don't play Guild Wars 2 if you believe there is any counter play to any of this. Watch the first 60s of this video for an example of what I mean. Notice that you can't even see where the Mesmer is at all or where he was or where he is going, and by the time damage lands there is quite seriously "Zero reaction time." I mean this nasty disgusting bull@#$% is worse than Deadeye or Soulbeasts ever were. With Deadeyes and Soulbeasts, at least you can see them from time to time and get to hear noises or see animations before you get blown up. And even DE & Soulbeast damage doesn't actually instantly kill you. You may see your health quickly drop, but there is actually reaction time. This Power Mesmer #$%^ seriously gives you 0 reaction time. > > It's garbage and completely worthy of a hotfix like CI was given. > > > @"RisenHowl.2419" said: > > Let me preface this by saying yes, i understand it's a meme build. It's easy to kill when you have invuln for the initial burst. Just Dodge. Only bad players die against power mes. Bring a reveal. Watch the minimap. etc. > > > > GW2 pvp player population is at an all time low, imagine someone starting out in pvp running into this. Why on earth would they come back? > > > > > > > > > @"KrHome.1920" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > I am seriously getting tired of builds that can stealth in at you from 4000 some range and instantly drop your health from 100% to 0% with no tells. > > > > > > It's a bad design that makes for a bad game that isn't fun to play. > > Am I the only one who thinks that this is a trollpost? > > It's definitely not a troll post. I'm being 100% serious. And while we're talking about "trolling" this stupid high stealth uptime build also has of late been encouraging players to abuse speedhack & even telehack. Yeah, I'm an old player and I know the game well. I've known the game well for years and I keep up on every patch update. I know how far a Core Mesmer can realistically move across a map legitimately, whether it is stealthed or not. When I send a Mesmer on respawn from my home node in Legacy, and the dude is seriously back on top of me in like 10s,1HKOing me from stealth, that's enormously jacked up speed hack or tele hack, one or the other. That is not possible with just Blink & Super Speed. So yeah I'm pissed off about it. Because in this cause, speed hack and tele hack starts turning into this "auto kill" hack when it's being used on a build like Power Core Mesmer. > > It's straight ruining not only ranked, but like unranked and ATs. It needs to be dealt with ASAP. > > Yeah the speed and tele hacks around for sure. I've started many ranked matches where the enemy thief etc is already capping our home as were leaving the gate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashimmu.4219 Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 What you are saying is true. There is no fun to play vs such class. And it can be fixed (like changing whole Stealth mechanic, for example). I Tumb Up your post to make it more weighty for developers (i am too feeling that mesmer's nerf wasn't hard enough). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stallic.2397 Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 > @"Hannelore.8153" said: > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > Hmm, couldn't they always do this? I dont get why people complain at stuff that's been on/off for years > > In the past it was limited for a variety of reasons, including that clones and phantasms competed for each other on the Mesmer's profession mechanic, with that removed phantasms became alot more potent, since they're "unlimted." The numbers are lower in PvP/WvW after recent nerfs but in PvE with the recharge signet you can bring up like ten phantasms at once. > > Combine this with instant, pre-charged attacks like Mantras and you can very easily explode someone with zero effort. Nerfs have helped but its still possible to bring a rediculous amount of firepower to the fight in 2-3 seconds of casting. > > What makes it dangerous is that mechanics like stealth and Blink allow this to happen right on top of you. Have no idea why they made this change. Ruined the balance of the class. Now visual noise is all Mesmers need to seem OP. And nerf cries like this are unending Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted December 5, 2019 Author Share Posted December 5, 2019 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"Liza.2758" said: > > > u know i'm not defending the build but u can't really say there is no counter play > > > > > > the counter play is simply ur reaction. u will most likely say how can u react to that in 1 - 2 sec. > > > > > > The instant dead is very common in League. 1 shot from stealth 1 shot from brush 1 shot from dark area. > > > > > > super fast reaction is part of what determined how good player is > > > > > > [ ) > > > > > > something like this. > > > > No. You clearly don't play Guild Wars 2 if you believe there is any counter play to any of this. Watch the first 60s of this video for an example of what I mean. Notice that you can't even see where the Mesmer is at all or where he was or where he is going, and by the time damage lands there is quite seriously "Zero reaction time." I mean this nasty disgusting bull@#$% is worse than Deadeye or Soulbeasts ever were. With Deadeyes and Soulbeasts, at least you can see them from time to time and get to hear noises or see animations before you get blown up. And even DE & Soulbeast damage doesn't actually instantly kill you. You may see your health quickly drop, but there is actually reaction time. This Power Mesmer #$%^ seriously gives you 0 reaction time. > > > > It's garbage and completely worthy of a hotfix like CI was given. > > > > > @"RisenHowl.2419" said: > > > Let me preface this by saying yes, i understand it's a meme build. It's easy to kill when you have invuln for the initial burst. Just Dodge. Only bad players die against power mes. Bring a reveal. Watch the minimap. etc. > > > > > > GW2 pvp player population is at an all time low, imagine someone starting out in pvp running into this. Why on earth would they come back? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"KrHome.1920" said: > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > I am seriously getting tired of builds that can stealth in at you from 4000 some range and instantly drop your health from 100% to 0% with no tells. > > > > > > > > It's a bad design that makes for a bad game that isn't fun to play. > > > Am I the only one who thinks that this is a trollpost? > > > > It's definitely not a troll post. I'm being 100% serious. And while we're talking about "trolling" this stupid high stealth uptime build also has of late been encouraging players to abuse speedhack & even telehack. Yeah, I'm an old player and I know the game well. I've known the game well for years and I keep up on every patch update. I know how far a Core Mesmer can realistically move across a map legitimately, whether it is stealthed or not. When I send a Mesmer on respawn from my home node in Legacy, and the dude is seriously back on top of me in like 10s,1HKOing me from stealth, that's enormously jacked up speed hack or tele hack, one or the other. That is not possible with just Blink & Super Speed. So yeah I'm pissed off about it. Because in this cause, speed hack and tele hack starts turning into this "auto kill" hack when it's being used on a build like Power Core Mesmer. > > > > It's straight ruining not only ranked, but like unranked and ATs. It needs to be dealt with ASAP. > > > > > > Yeah the speed and tele hacks around for sure. I've started many ranked matches where the enemy thief etc is already capping our home as were leaving the gate. Yeah and it's getting wildly out of control lately, with all this stealth heavy 1shot crap. I'd like to play this game still. Be great if Arenanet would start paying attention to some these "botting" report options that they give us. I don't always want to have to make a damn recording and edit & upload it to youtube, just for some hope that Arenanet "might" pay attention to it. And believe me, I've made several in the past that exposed very blatant obvious cheating in the recording, and I still see these players to this day queueing in the mists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > Dude they're coming in from way further out than 1200 Blink range. The stealth uptime on this build is A LOT higher than it used to be in previous years. I mean, I guess? They still have to blink to you or be in melee range to complete the burst though so mirror blade bounces, and mirror blade itself is 1,200 range. If they use The Prestige, its even easier to tell when you're going to explode. Of course they can stealth way out, but that seems unlikely to me because of how inefficient it is. > I don't even necessarily care about its damage output. I care that I can't SEE it at all, not on my mini map or visually anywhere in the screen, before it comes from around a blind spot at 4000 range or some kitten, and blows you up. It's actually worse when it arrives into say a 3v3 type situation. Because you have no idea where he is going to target. You could even see the Mesmer stealth, but you have absolutely no idea who the guy is going to target. I mean a Deadeye "marks" you before you start getting hit, even if it's just a split second before you get attacked. Soulbeasts use "Sic Em" and you can see it appear on your bar. But this Power Mesmer nonsense seriously has ZERO tells at all. Like there actually is no counter play whatsoever. It deals so much damage that the only way for 3 people to feasibly counter play the Mesmer's approach is if all 3 players begin burning blocks and dodges and other defensive CDs for the duration of the stealth, to make sure they aren't the one targeted. Do you realize how powerful that is? to be able to pressure & bait that many CDs from your opponent simply by stealthing near them? It's too much. I'm 50/50 on it. I agree that its frustrating, especially if you're distracted. you do usually only need one block or dodge to avoid that whole burst, though. And if that mesmer ported in from way out, they likely dont have: blink A utility that they used for stealth The Prestige That means, if you live/can react to the initial burst, at best that mesmer has blurred frenzy, a stunbreak, a half full shatter that they might sacrifice for distortion, and a long cast invisibility that you can see. If they tried to daze you so shatters did more damage, they probably don't have a stunbreak at all because that mystery slot on their bar is MoD. I see what you're saying though. There's a difference between "if you live" and "if you can react." and "there was fair warning you were going to be hit by this." I'm just thinking about how that is going to affect the core mesmer's build if the explosiveness is made more predictable, since it almost renders them helpless to do (and since you can scope that opposing team has a core mes the moment match starts, and be prepared to twitch if you get +ed.) > Upon this, the Mesmer in that video, I wanted to point out that his burst is actually slow in that video compared to some of the better Mesmers we have rolling around. There are some of them, like Mur as example, who when you get burst, you seriously instantly die. Health goes from 100% to 0% immediately. There is no reaction time. gonna watch this in a min. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradoxoglanis.1904 Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 I think the people defending this kind of playstyle must either abuse it themselves, or they have no sense of what makes a game fair and fun to play. It doesnt matter that stealth 1 shot builds arent optimal in ranked, this kind of build has very little counterplay which should not be acceptable balance. Yes if you are a skilled player you can avoid the burst most of the time, just like how skilled players can win the majority of fights regardless of matchup. People then argue "this kind of build has always been around". Yes 1 shot builds have always existed, but they did not have the same level of sustainability, mobility, and damage that they have now. Then more people say "but it has counters and isnt strong in ranked or duels, and its fun when I play it so its fine". As someone said in a previous post, a build can be balanced, but incredibly toxic to play against and have no place in a game. For example imagine a class with 1 skill, that has a 50% chance of instantly killing their target, and a 50% chance of killing themselves. This class would be "balanced" because you would never win more than half your fights, but it would be incredibly broken in that it has no counterplay, and ruins what gw2 pvp is supposed to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted December 5, 2019 Author Share Posted December 5, 2019 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > Dude they're coming in from way further out than 1200 Blink range. The stealth uptime on this build is A LOT higher than it used to be in previous years. > > I mean, I guess? They still have to blink to you or be in melee range to complete the burst though so mirror blade bounces, and mirror blade itself is 1,200 range. > If they use The Prestige, its even easier to tell when you're going to explode. Of course they can stealth way out, but that seems unlikely to me because of how inefficient it is. > > > I don't even necessarily care about its damage output. I care that I can't SEE it at all, not on my mini map or visually anywhere in the screen, before it comes from around a blind spot at 4000 range or some kitten, and blows you up. It's actually worse when it arrives into say a 3v3 type situation. Because you have no idea where he is going to target. You could even see the Mesmer stealth, but you have absolutely no idea who the guy is going to target. I mean a Deadeye "marks" you before you start getting hit, even if it's just a split second before you get attacked. Soulbeasts use "Sic Em" and you can see it appear on your bar. But this Power Mesmer nonsense seriously has ZERO tells at all. Like there actually is no counter play whatsoever. It deals so much damage that the only way for 3 people to feasibly counter play the Mesmer's approach is if all 3 players begin burning blocks and dodges and other defensive CDs for the duration of the stealth, to make sure they aren't the one targeted. Do you realize how powerful that is? to be able to pressure & bait that many CDs from your opponent simply by stealthing near them? It's too much. > > I'm 50/50 on it. I agree that its frustrating, especially if you're distracted. you do usually only need one block or dodge to avoid that whole burst. And if that mesmer ported in from way out, they likely dont have: > > blink > A utility that they used for stealth > The Prestige > > That means, if you live/can react to the initial burst, at best that mesmer has blurred frenzy, a stunbreak, a shatter, and a long cast invisibility that you can see. > I see what you're saying though. There's a difference between "if you live" and "if you can react." and "there was fair warning you were going to be hit by this." I'm just thinking about how that is going to affect the core mesmer's build if the explosiveness is made more predictable, since it almost renders them helpless to do (and since you can scope that opposing team has a core mes the moment match starts, and be prepared to twitch if you get +ed.) > > > > Upon this, the Mesmer in that video, I wanted to point out that his burst is actually slow in that video compared to some of the better Mesmers we have rolling around. There are some of them, like Mur as example, who when you get burst, you seriously instantly die. Health goes from 100% to 0% immediately. There is no reaction time. > > gonna watch this in a min. > Yeah please do watch the video, and keep in mind that even that burst is slow compared to the better mesmers out there. Imagine if the burst shown in the video instantly drops the health from 100% to 0% instead of seeing the drop from 100% to 30% to 0%. In the case that the 100% goes directly to 0%, there is seriously no counter play my dude. Notice how you can't even see the Mesmer anywhere in the mini map at all. There is no class icon moving around, nothing. It is able to stealth in from that far away, that there is no counter play to its positioning for starters, and then there is no counter play for a 100% to 0% burst. You just die, the very millisecond that there any readable tells at all. There is no counter play. No human being, and probably not even a bot program designed to auto dodge, could react to this. So the idea of "if we survive" "if we can react" none of that matters because it isn't applicable, because you're talking something that can floor Core Necromancer in Shroud with a single burst 1HKO, all of which that damage happens literally "instantly" at the same time, there is no "combo" it's just a bunch of instant cast bull@#$% that happens immediately. And then of course you can't see that it's even approaching you. You could a pro ESL player from years ago, and still never be able to tell where that Mesmer is or who it's going to attack or where it's going. I mean if you still aren't understanding what I'm saying here, please explain to me what the guy in the video, in that first 30s, what was he supposed to do to counter play that? Consider it was a 100% to immediate 0% situation against a better Mesmer, where there is seriously no reaction time. Even that slower Mesmer in the video is still a lightning fast kill, which provides little reaction time to begin with. It's possible that some of the better players out there have the reflexes to actually slam a stun break and dodge roll out in the exact moment they see the health drop from 100% to 30%. There are times when I've had my head so deep in the game, that I could have escaped the burst in that video, but it requires this extra competitive mind frame that most players never really achieve. But when we are talking about 100% to 0%, I'm telling you my man, there is no reaction time. No player can escape that and neither could a computer AI bot with the fastest reflex times possible, because as soon as there is anything to read in the programming at all of an inc attack, you're already dead. I mean what is the guy supposed to do here? Go into mid when he can't see any enemies and start dodge rolling into the air, using his blocks, burn through his CDs? That's too much man. Just the raw baiting power in that is insane. I mean before a team fight even begins, the presence of a single Power Shatter Mesmer has goaded the entire enemy team fight to burn a ton of cool downs before the fight even starts. This is too much man. 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Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted December 5, 2019 Author Share Posted December 5, 2019 > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > Then more people say "but it has counters and isnt strong in ranked or duels, and its fun when I play it so its fine". As someone said in a previous post, a build can be balanced, but incredibly toxic to play against and have no place in a game. For example imagine a class with 1 skill, that has a 50% chance of instantly killing their target, and a 50% chance of killing themselves. This class would be "balanced" because you would never win more than half your fights, but it would be incredibly broken in that it has no counterplay, and ruins what gw2 pvp is supposed to be. ^ This is the best way I've ever heard it put. I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 > @"NationalNacho.5972" said: > mantra of pain is one of the most single handed broken offensive utilities in the game, **always has been**. Are you talking about the period where it was more usefull to auto-ing than to use MoP ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddbopkins.2630 Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 I don't see why there can't be a hard damage reduction when in stealth. You already have the element of surprise and no tells. So why should you also be able to do full damage from such a advantage posision. Something like 50% damage reduction from any skill used or activated in stealth would be fair I feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 Regarding: Lmao that's really funny Tbh getting stunned would have made me IMMEDATELY press plague signet and dodge off that roof though, regarding first burst. There was a full second before that burst hit to do that. Def agree that the video highlights just how little response time there is, though. That poor focused necro. @"Leonidrex.5649" , thoughts on vid? I'm curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 This Necro vid is rly a bad example to point out what the problems of PU core oneshot Mesmers are. First they have trash teamcomp, they play randoms vs full premade (means no matter what classes the other team would have played it would have looked nearly the same) and the ppl play like bots, low reaction time, no awareness, no teamplay, just solo running out of keep asking to get farmed, most of them even use bad builds or classe like Necro get hardcountered by comps with lot of high dmg roaming builds (Necro in particular without support). Still on the other side i have to agree, playing vs more than one PU core Mesmer in the other team (already playing vs one) is cancer and no one would rly argue that this PU oneshot build is skillful. PU is just a stupid mechanic and the whole Chaosline offers way too much for this build (superspeed, ridiculous stealthduration, boonsustain, short cds on heal/ reflect and blink) deleting most counterplay the oneshot combo normally has when not done out of nowhere (because less stealth duration makes it way more predictable). Also deletes the difficulty to survive after failed burst (when bursts even fail after you have almost endless time to set it up and time it after defense correctly). Means Chaosline is the main reason deletes most of its coutnerplay and risk and difficulty of surviving or lack in mobility a oneshot Mesmer would normally have. MoP then is the second unhealthy low skill ceiling carry mechanic in that build should just get reworked into something else (not just nerf it to uselessness, better rework it into something useful but not broken, best idea in my view was a boonremove mantra). There clearly is a big difference in skill ceiling and ability to counter it between MoP and MoD (@"NationalNacho.5972" ) . MoP is rewarding also when braindead rdm spammed, it doesn't need to interrupt something and doesn't have any other skillful mechanic. The selfboonbuff and the dmg application barely need to look out for anything to be rewarding. That is why MoP is one of the most braindead skills during MoD is quite the opposite, it is a mindful interrupt tool making one of the most skillful playstyle (interrupt playstyle) in this game possible for Mesmer, what also has one of the highest amount of counters from all utilities in the game (i mentioned 10 counters to MoD several times already). It needs to be instant to make reactive interrupts on keyskills possible. The only fair nerf to MoD would be to lower the daze durtion to 1 secs, that is a good duration for an defensive and interrupt tool. Also make sure that no op interrupt traits get added like old CI or old Lost Time. > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"NationalNacho.5972" said: > Doesnt matter, I will leave My opinion here of what can be done to fix the issue, you can agree or disagree i dont give a rats kitten tbh. > > CMIRAGE. > - Make IH baseline, nerf its damage by 80-90% > - Axe trait, make it baseline > - Staff, change staff 3 and staff 4 to make then usable. > - Scepter -> improve basic auto damage > - Scepter 3 Improve its damage ( or make it ramp up, the more time it hits the better the confusion stacks will scale up ) > - Axe -> improve basic auto damage BY ALOT, it hits for 500-600, even in pve its like 1k dmg/swing lol > - Axe 3 and 2 Improve damage > - Improve F2 shatter damage BY A LARGE AMMOUNT > - Sharper immages, make 33% proc chance instead of 100%. Make it also proc on mesmer hits. ( possibility of increasing condi duration by 20%? would have to think about dmg in numbers ) > - Clone scepter ambush -> reduce number of hits to 3 instead of 5. > - Provide sustain options in the tree that allow the mesmer to sustain itself during fight. > - Improve shatter condi traits by ALOT. > > POWER MIRAGE/CORE > - Make IH baseline, nerf its damage by 80-90% > - Fencer's Finesse change it to 120 power always, 240 on sword. Like all other traits. > - remove Mental Anguish from the game, propose other good trait thats not used ONLY to 1shot people. > - Dazzling make it work on curtain,gs kb for extra vuln stacks. > - Empowered Illusions replace with usable damage trait > - Egotism buff or change it, so its not laughably bad compared to other traits of its type. > - GS2, make bounces take priority on the target that was first hit. > - GS3 make Berserker hit more reliably. > - Remove PU from the game compleatly and replace it with other usefull trait. ( same with CI its useless ) > - Make sword 3 less glichy. > - And fix targeting issues on skills when targets goes behind both axe scepter gs ALL of them, line of sight is one thing but failing combo becouse oponent is inside your model is stupid. > - Change/buff Moa,and the quickness elite whatever its called, ridiculously bad. > - REMOVE ALL MANTRAS FROM MES, BAD DESIGN > - Add new utilities, good onse. Usable onse. > - Buff defender/disenchanter > > Chrono > Keep unplayable in pvp, its toxic. F4 and chronophantasma forces all phantasms to be bad > > > This is what I would like to happen, its not going to happen but one can dream. > Meanwhile im just gonna walk away and await futher pointless nerfs becouse whiners dont feel like learning the game. o/ IH doesn't do dmg by its own, the dmg is linked to the ambush skills and need to be fine adjusted by ambsuh skills and not by nerfing IH (IH can't be nerfed/changed without destroying all active and skillful parts it has), imo the clone ambushes and only on condi weapons are op and too passive designed. What you want to nerf on Powermirages clones ambushes? Sword doesn't even do any dmg they more or less only daze, and on gs the clones don't overperform already. If anything then the Mesmers own greatsword ambush is maybe a little bit too strong (and the reason only spamming gs ambsuhes from range can be rewarding on some powerbuilds) not the clones. I think making it a minor trait would be ok because IH itself adds clearly skill ceiling to Mirage and is by itself an active and interesting mechanic, as long as ambushes are designed well (sword ambush is the best designed one). Dmg nerf on Powerclones are not needed they already don't do too much (a Powermirage will never pressure or even kill anything by just clone dmg means only dodging without using his own ambsuh or any other skill in addition, not even with 3 clones up, what is good, that is how it should be). If you rly want to nerf clone ambush skills dmg by 80 % on Condimesmer (i would also nerf clone normal autoattacks condi dmg by 80% btw! Clones do no dmg on power there is no reason why they do so much more condidmg) you need to give those ambushes some other stuff in return (like effects the player can actively work with to outplay opponents, just as sword ambush is designed, otherwise taking IH on Condimes as a dodge trait would be useless, it would not give any reward good enough to worth taken). The more ambushes are about utility and not just rawr dmg the more skillbased and active the whole IH-Ambush mechanic will be. And you need to give Condimesmer active ways of condiapplications back, for example by shatters (just not in the old braindead spammable blind - ineptitude on all shatters version). Otherwise Condimesmer will have too low dmg. Your other points i will not judge right now, i need to go^^ But that was important to point out once again. Against all the rumours IH is NOT the issue (and it is nothing else than a rumour because until now no one could explain to me why IH is the issue and not just the few op condi clone ambush skills), it is active, skillful and not op on Power so the reasons for the problems on Condimirages are clearly the clone ambush skills from condiweapons (and the imbalance of condiclones normal autoattacks already overperforming in terms of dmg compared to power clone normal autoattacks). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said: > I don't see why there can't be a hard damage reduction when in stealth. You already have the element of surprise and no tells. So why should you also be able to do full damage from such a advantage posision. Something like 50% damage reduction from any skill used or activated in stealth would be fair I feel. Then good thing balancing isnt done on the feeling my man. Not every class has stealth for a reason mesm/thief are more squishy then other becouse they have stealth and ports, if you nerf that you gotta buff their surivability and damage to compensate. and then different whining will start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 i'm starting to think the only way to balance stealth is to have it reveal you the moment you cast something, even instant cast. not my idea originally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > I am seriously getting tired of builds that can stealth in at you from 4000 some range and instantly drop your health from 100% to 0% with no tells. > > > > > > It's a bad design that makes for a bad game that isn't fun to play. > > > > > > > Eh, I think its mostly tolerable, as long as you see them stealth, because all the damage is frontloaded and they have to blink or otherwise be near you to maximize it, which puts them in arms reach with no defense. They have to be within 1200 range to burst you, which is a reasonable area to scan unless they start from behind an obstacle. > > I do, however, agree that it can easily be frustrating, especially when the general consensus for other classes doing this from stealth is that it's unacceptable. > > I guess we can nerf power spike so people cant just mash a button to add DPS ~~without aiming~~ and go from there? I'm not for touching power variants of mesmer too much though. It's one of the only high risk specs they have and I think playing high risk should be encouraged. > > > > Edit: Forgot mantras now require you to aim iirc > > Dude they're coming in from way further out than 1200 Blink range. The stealth uptime on this build is A LOT higher than it used to be in previous years. > > I don't even necessarily care about its damage output. I care that I can't SEE it at all, not on my mini map or visually anywhere in the screen, before it comes from around a blind spot at 4000 range or some kitten, and blows you up. It's actually worse when it arrives into say a 3v3 type situation. Because you have no idea where he is going to target. You could even see the Mesmer stealth, but you have absolutely no idea who the guy is going to target. I mean a Deadeye "marks" you before you start getting hit, even if it's just a split second before you get attacked. Soulbeasts use "Sic Em" and you can see it appear on your bar. But this Power Mesmer nonsense seriously has ZERO tells at all. Like there actually is no counter play whatsoever. It deals so much damage that the only way for 3 people to feasibly counter play the Mesmer's approach is if all 3 players begin burning blocks and dodges and other defensive CDs for the duration of the stealth, to make sure they aren't the one targeted. Do you realize how powerful that is? to be able to pressure & bait that many CDs from your opponent simply by stealthing near them? It's too much. > > Upon this, the Mesmer in that video, I wanted to point out that his burst is actually slow in that video compared to some of the better Mesmers we have rolling around. There are some of them, like Mur as example, who when you get burst, you seriously instantly die. Health goes from 100% to 0% immediately. There is no reaction time. And the damage is also ridiculous too, i'd like a nerf to the damage too of power mes pls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 @"bravan.3876" ye I know, I would leave power ambushes as are, i kinda wrote it as a quick note, also would reduce condid amage from autos. And made IH as a baseline, meaning that Cmirage doesnt HAVE to take it, it ahs it for free. Speed of Sand is sad excuse of a trait that shouldnt occupy a trait slot. What I suggest would lower. - Clone ambush damage by 80-95% - Clone auto damage by 80%+ - Pistol 4 damage by 10-15%+ ( due to sharper img ) - No more stealth ( stealth of 2-3s depending on skills no more 10s+ stealth bullshit ) What would be gained Condi shatter damage ( active playstyle ) Condi damage on mesmer hits ( active playstyle ) Extra grandmaster trait ( ofc EM should be reworked ) but other GM are preety bad but its still something ( you have to be melee to proc it for example ) Extra damage on mesmer Autos and axe skills in general ( they hit like noodle on melee weapon ) again active playstyle. What should also be put somewhere is condi cleanse, there is seriously no reason for meta mesmer to have 1 or 2 condi clear and thats it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 @"Axl.8924" then lets talk, what part of power mesmers damage is too high, point us in the right direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > @"Axl.8924" then lets talk, what part of power mesmers damage is too high, point us in the right direction. Mainly im concerned with might gen and quickness and alacricity which effects damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted December 5, 2019 Author Share Posted December 5, 2019 Just want to make this post to really elaborate on quite exactly what attributes are stacking up here, to make this build so toxic: 1. **Nuclear damage output.** This is normally fine imo on glass cannon designed specs. But it begins to get out of control here for the following reasons. 2. **Too many instant cast pre-charged skills.** It can front load enough damage to drop any build instantly. Again, this is normally not that big of a deal in most situations, when a build provides tells so that it can be counter played. But this leads to the next reason of what makes this so toxic. 3. **Too much stealth uptime paired with their mobility.** Lately these Mesmers have enough stealth to approach you from blind spots in the map where you are unable to see them visually on the screen, or even their class icon on the mini map. Don't believe me? Watch that video that was posted. This means that you have no ability whatsoever, to counter play the Mesmer's position or to interpret where he is or where he is going. Now your survival vs. the Mesmer burst is entirely dependent upon raw reflex, for when it attacks you, and if you have some kind of an instant invuln or instant mobility stun break with an evade, such as Roll For Initiative. This takes us to the following point to be made, which is the deepest and most toxic part about all of this. 4. **There are no tells when a good Mesmer player is wielding this build.** Even middle tiered players can sort of "no tell" blow you up a fraction of a second with this build, but the good Mesmers out there, seriously instantly kill you by perfectly timing all of the instants & precharges, and landing them all simultaneously for a visual representation on-screen of seeing your health go from 100% to 0% instantly. There is no counter play to this. By the time any visual graphics appear or you hear any noises at all, you're already dead. 5. **Subsequently, it is important to compare Core Power Mesmer to other notorious 1HKO builds** -> Even Deadeyes & Soulbeasts provide warning of inc burst when a DE marks a target or a Soulbeast uses Sic Em. A player can see these things on their UI, as a warning that they are being focused. The Mesmer on the other hand, delivers no such warning. The DE & Soulbeast also must approach a general vicinity before engaging in stealth play. Players can see this happening, and are ready to engage the situation. They know the DE or Soulbeast is close, they are being marked or seeing Sic Em on UI, they know if they are being targeted. The stealth's are also short on DE & Soulbeast to where players can intuitively gauge how long the DE or Soulbeast will be in stealth and if he is about to land a burst or how far he could move during that short time. The Power Mesmer on the other hand, yeah reread the points made in 3. Furthermore, the DEs & Soulbeasts don't actually "1shot" anything. The damage may lay down quickly, you may see your health drop from 100% to 75% to 50% to 25% to 0% from a Rapid Fire that takes 2 and a half seconds to complete, or you may see a 100% to 50% o 0% with a Maul leading into Worldy Impact that takes roughly 2s to complete even with quickness. You may see your health drop from 100% to 25% from a Death's Judgement, and then a DE follows up with some other attack to finish the job, requiring a good 2s to complete. <- All of this as annoying as it is, requires like 2s at the minimum to actually do, which is allowing counter play. But the Mesmer? Nah, all that damage lands in the fraction of a millisecond right out of stealth, especially if a person has a good macro set. Even the approach of the DEs & the Soulbeasts are rather obvious and allow players to position themselves to engage them. But the Mesmer? Nah you can't see it or interpret where it is at all. The final point to be made is that: DEs and Soulbeasts are nailing people with projectiles, which can be LOSed. But the Mesmer? That's mostly all melee functioned & ground targeted damage that HIT THROUGH WALLS. I don't know what else to say. The implementation of this Core Power Mesmer lately, feels like I was eating at a nice dinner and enjoying my meal, then someone tossed a nasty leaky dirty diaper up on my table, and then I had to get up and leave. For real though. I've put up with a lot of bad metas in this game over the years, but there is something extra _bad feeling_ about this no-tell Mesmer stealth across the map and 1HKO you stuff. Like actual instant 1HKO. Not like DEs or Soulbeasts that just deal a lot of damage really fast. No, this is an actual quite literal "instant 1HKO right out of stealth" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Axl.8924" then lets talk, what part of power mesmers damage is too high, point us in the right direction. > > Im thinking the amount of might gen limit it to around 9-12 stacks easily and anything above that with more difficulty with mantra and other stuff. > > mainly im concerned about stacking might for mes and using resets of abilities possibly to do insane dmg. > > also control combination of quickness and alacricity with attacks i know for certain one of the build thingies you guys have gives quickness i think to illusions. > > > > > > Then I will put you at east. No meta power mesmer build has any Quickness or Alacrity. Core power mes gets its might to 12 from mantra, then 6 from gs2. and thats it, nothing else. Pmirage gets might from Ambush and gs2 bounces. thats 6might/target for 5s on ambush, thats it. Only way to reset cooldowns is 1 Being chrono and using f4 ( chrono is unplayable ) And signet of ether ( its meh, it resets by 50%, its actually preety good ) Oasis is simply better. The thing about Pmirage is that it lacks almost any damage modifiers, thats why it relies on GS ambush for might to deal any semblence of damage. skills legit hit for 500-1500 if you have no might. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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