Seera.5916 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 > @"Funky.4861" said: > > @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said: > > > Who are you to say what it "deserves"? > > > > Legendary armor should have been craftable from the get-go, right alongside the weapons. > > Legendary armour is much more complicated to make than legendary weapons in terms of dev resources (number of items, animations, clipping, dye channels, attachment points etc) so it's no wonder to me that it took until HoT expac for them to be ready for release. In player terms it's also quite a step-up in effort to acquire from ascended gear; that step-up can be achieved in pvp/wvw because players don't follow scripts like mobs do. In OW, the challenge simply isn't there if you discount raids/fracs because anything which causes difficulty you can ask for help in mapchat and people will come- that's what i mean when i say OW doesn't deserve lege armour. I'd be fine if they had the same skin as the ascended equivalent - because open world is so easy compared to the other means of acquisition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flog.3485 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > > > > > Please no. > > > > > > > > > > I mean, at this point it is sheer laziness. Take a look at what they have been doing to make legendary armor more accessible over the recent years: > > > > > > > > > > -they made legendary armor accessible to all game modes > > > > > > > > > > -they created 10 man easy content for players just so that we can have an easier time getting into 10 man content > > > > > > > > > > And taking into account all of that, they also made the effort to create the build templates which actually made legendary armor even less relevant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it is enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Time i learned open world pve(the only place that doesnt have it own armor set) isnt a game mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hate to break it to you but raids are actually PvE. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Open world and instanced content isn't the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > And yet they provide the same experience: a group of players fighting mobs. > > > > > > > > > > Nope. OW is actual MMO content, while instanced content is just lobby based, nothing massively about that. > > > > > > > > And yet in any other MMO raids are considered PvE. So tell me, why should it be different for GW2 ? > > > > > > I'm not saying it's not PvE, i'm saying it has nothing to do with the massively part of an MMORPG. > > > WvW and SPvP are both PvP gamemodes, yet they aren't the same, they don't provide the same experience. Same goes for OW and Raids. I would even go so far and say Fractals/Dungeons and Raids are different gamemodes. > > > > > > Squares and rectangles are both quadrilaterals/quadrangles, yet they aren't the same. > > > > Nice semantics, except it doesn’t explain why open world should get legendary armor. Guess what ?raids, fractals, dungeons, strike missions and even visions of the past (in the near future) are PvE. > > Yeah, and guess what, PvP and WvW both have legendary armors. I'm not sure what you're arguing here, because you don't make sense. The reason is simple: every gamemode should have full legendary sets. Quite easy I would say. Here is how the logic applies: PvP has legendary armor. WvW has legendary armor. PvE who has raids, fractals, open world, strike missions and upcoming visions of the past ( which involves a group of players fighting mobs at a basic level) has legendary armor. The issue I see here is that you are stubborn to recognize that instanced content is part of PvE, even though Anet and all the other MMOs consider open world and endgame instanced content PvE. I wish you good luck to convince Anet and the all the MMO developers that instanced content is not part of PvE because if I go by your logic, that would mean the basic story that is delivered through the story journal is not PvE. Sorry I just cannot agree with all of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raknar.4735 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"flog.3485" said: > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Please no. > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, at this point it is sheer laziness. Take a look at what they have been doing to make legendary armor more accessible over the recent years: > > > > > > > > > > > -they made legendary armor accessible to all game modes > > > > > > > > > > > -they created 10 man easy content for players just so that we can have an easier time getting into 10 man content > > > > > > > > > > > And taking into account all of that, they also made the effort to create the build templates which actually made legendary armor even less relevant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it is enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Time i learned open world pve(the only place that doesnt have it own armor set) isnt a game mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hate to break it to you but raids are actually PvE. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Open world and instanced content isn't the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And yet they provide the same experience: a group of players fighting mobs. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope. OW is actual MMO content, while instanced content is just lobby based, nothing massively about that. > > > > > > > > > > And yet in any other MMO raids are considered PvE. So tell me, why should it be different for GW2 ? > > > > > > > > I'm not saying it's not PvE, i'm saying it has nothing to do with the massively part of an MMORPG. > > > > WvW and SPvP are both PvP gamemodes, yet they aren't the same, they don't provide the same experience. Same goes for OW and Raids. I would even go so far and say Fractals/Dungeons and Raids are different gamemodes. > > > > > > > > Squares and rectangles are both quadrilaterals/quadrangles, yet they aren't the same. > > > > > > Nice semantics, except it doesn’t explain why open world should get legendary armor. Guess what ?raids, fractals, dungeons, strike missions and even visions of the past (in the near future) are PvE. > > > > Yeah, and guess what, PvP and WvW both have legendary armors. I'm not sure what you're arguing here, because you don't make sense. The reason is simple: every gamemode should have full legendary sets. > > Quite easy I would say. Here is how the logic applies: > PvP has legendary armor. > WvW has legendary armor. > PvE who has raids, fractals, open world, strike missions and upcoming visions of the past ( which involves a group of players fighting mobs at a basic level) has legendary armor. > > The issue I see here is that you are stubborn to recognize that instanced content is part of PvE, even though Anet and all the other MMOs consider open world and endgame instanced content PvE. > > I wish you good luck to convince Anet and the all the MMO developers that instanced content is not part of PvE because if I go by your logic, that would mean the basic story that is delivered through the story journal is not PvE. > > Sorry I just cannot agree with all of that. Sounds to me like you're more stubborn than even me. SPvP and WvW are both PvP gamemodes. So why are there 2 armors then? Because they are different PvP gamemodes. Same goes for Raids, fractals and OW. They are different PvE gamemodes. You're still talking as if i'm saying they're not PvE gamemodes, and not applying my logic at all. I guess you would be able to replace osmium as the densest material on earth ;) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krzysztof.5973 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Please no. > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, at this point it is sheer laziness. Take a look at what they have been doing to make legendary armor more accessible over the recent years: > > > > > > > > > > > > -they made legendary armor accessible to all game modes > > > > > > > > > > > > -they created 10 man easy content for players just so that we can have an easier time getting into 10 man content > > > > > > > > > > > > And taking into account all of that, they also made the effort to create the build templates which actually made legendary armor even less relevant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it is enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Time i learned open world pve(the only place that doesnt have it own armor set) isnt a game mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hate to break it to you but raids are actually PvE. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Open world and instanced content isn't the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And yet they provide the same experience: a group of players fighting mobs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope. OW is actual MMO content, while instanced content is just lobby based, nothing massively about that. > > > > > > > > > > > > And yet in any other MMO raids are considered PvE. So tell me, why should it be different for GW2 ? > > > > > > > > > > I'm not saying it's not PvE, i'm saying it has nothing to do with the massively part of an MMORPG. > > > > > WvW and SPvP are both PvP gamemodes, yet they aren't the same, they don't provide the same experience. Same goes for OW and Raids. I would even go so far and say Fractals/Dungeons and Raids are different gamemodes. > > > > > > > > > > Squares and rectangles are both quadrilaterals/quadrangles, yet they aren't the same. > > > > > > > > Nice semantics, except it doesn’t explain why open world should get legendary armor. Guess what ?raids, fractals, dungeons, strike missions and even visions of the past (in the near future) are PvE. > > > > > > Yeah, and guess what, PvP and WvW both have legendary armors. I'm not sure what you're arguing here, because you don't make sense. The reason is simple: every gamemode should have full legendary sets. > > > > Quite easy I would say. Here is how the logic applies: > > PvP has legendary armor. > > WvW has legendary armor. > > PvE who has raids, fractals, open world, strike missions and upcoming visions of the past ( which involves a group of players fighting mobs at a basic level) has legendary armor. > > > > The issue I see here is that you are stubborn to recognize that instanced content is part of PvE, even though Anet and all the other MMOs consider open world and endgame instanced content PvE. > > > > I wish you good luck to convince Anet and the all the MMO developers that instanced content is not part of PvE because if I go by your logic, that would mean the basic story that is delivered through the story journal is not PvE. > > > > Sorry I just cannot agree with all of that. > > Sounds to me like you're more stubborn than even me. SPvP and WvW are both PvP gamemodes. So why are there 2 armors then? Because they are different PvP gamemodes. Same goes for Raids, fractals and OW. They are different PvE gamemodes. You're still talking as if i'm saying they're not PvE gamemodes, and not applying my logic at all. > > I guess you would be able to replace osmium as the densest material on earth ;) . Open world simply does not deserve to have it's own legendary armor. Dev resources should go elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raknar.4735 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"Krzysztof.5973" said: > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please no. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, at this point it is sheer laziness. Take a look at what they have been doing to make legendary armor more accessible over the recent years: > > > > > > > > > > > > > -they made legendary armor accessible to all game modes > > > > > > > > > > > > > -they created 10 man easy content for players just so that we can have an easier time getting into 10 man content > > > > > > > > > > > > > And taking into account all of that, they also made the effort to create the build templates which actually made legendary armor even less relevant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it is enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Time i learned open world pve(the only place that doesnt have it own armor set) isnt a game mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hate to break it to you but raids are actually PvE. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Open world and instanced content isn't the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And yet they provide the same experience: a group of players fighting mobs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope. OW is actual MMO content, while instanced content is just lobby based, nothing massively about that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And yet in any other MMO raids are considered PvE. So tell me, why should it be different for GW2 ? > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not saying it's not PvE, i'm saying it has nothing to do with the massively part of an MMORPG. > > > > > > WvW and SPvP are both PvP gamemodes, yet they aren't the same, they don't provide the same experience. Same goes for OW and Raids. I would even go so far and say Fractals/Dungeons and Raids are different gamemodes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Squares and rectangles are both quadrilaterals/quadrangles, yet they aren't the same. > > > > > > > > > > Nice semantics, except it doesn’t explain why open world should get legendary armor. Guess what ?raids, fractals, dungeons, strike missions and even visions of the past (in the near future) are PvE. > > > > > > > > Yeah, and guess what, PvP and WvW both have legendary armors. I'm not sure what you're arguing here, because you don't make sense. The reason is simple: every gamemode should have full legendary sets. > > > > > > Quite easy I would say. Here is how the logic applies: > > > PvP has legendary armor. > > > WvW has legendary armor. > > > PvE who has raids, fractals, open world, strike missions and upcoming visions of the past ( which involves a group of players fighting mobs at a basic level) has legendary armor. > > > > > > The issue I see here is that you are stubborn to recognize that instanced content is part of PvE, even though Anet and all the other MMOs consider open world and endgame instanced content PvE. > > > > > > I wish you good luck to convince Anet and the all the MMO developers that instanced content is not part of PvE because if I go by your logic, that would mean the basic story that is delivered through the story journal is not PvE. > > > > > > Sorry I just cannot agree with all of that. > > > > Sounds to me like you're more stubborn than even me. SPvP and WvW are both PvP gamemodes. So why are there 2 armors then? Because they are different PvP gamemodes. Same goes for Raids, fractals and OW. They are different PvE gamemodes. You're still talking as if i'm saying they're not PvE gamemodes, and not applying my logic at all. > > > > I guess you would be able to replace osmium as the densest material on earth ;) . > > Open world simply does not deserve to have it's own legendary armor. Dev resources should go elsewhere. Well, that's your opinion and I disagree. I think the gamemode that is played by the majority deserves a set of its own. I'm also not opposed to every other gamemode getting a full set. If Dev resources should go elsewhere, what is that elsewhere exactly? There are also different dev teams for different things, some are skin designers, others add QoL and some design bosses. They aren't all responsible for the same things, like you're implying. It would only make sense to develop for the majority, not a niche market that can't even pay for itself and is therefore abandoned content. But sure, we could just allocate all the Dev resources to some niche content and let the majority leave the game, that'll keep the game alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 One of the issues that continues to plague this game is that players continue to not treat GW2 as just a single, whole game but instead as 5+ games. You have some players that do only sPvP and want what is offered in other areas of the game. You have some players that do only WvW and want what is offered in other areas of the game. You have some players that do only open world and want what is offered in other areas of the game. You have some players that do only fractals and want what is offered in other areas of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky.4861 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 The thing is, legendary armour is based on overcoming difficulty with skill/determination, not on game mode, or the popularity of said game mode; those arguments are not valid. Seeing as raids and fracs are the highest level of difficulty in pve, that's where you find the legendary armour; it doesn't matter a whit whether they are instanced or not. WvW behaves like an instance, because whenever i log out i don't log back in to a wvw map, but to the pvp lobby or whatever pve map i was on beforehand. Locking oneself out of instanced content also means locking oneself out of its rewards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Please no. > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, at this point it is sheer laziness. Take a look at what they have been doing to make legendary armor more accessible over the recent years: > > > > > > > > > > > > -they made legendary armor accessible to all game modes > > > > > > > > > > > > -they created 10 man easy content for players just so that we can have an easier time getting into 10 man content > > > > > > > > > > > > And taking into account all of that, they also made the effort to create the build templates which actually made legendary armor even less relevant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it is enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Time i learned open world pve(the only place that doesnt have it own armor set) isnt a game mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hate to break it to you but raids are actually PvE. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Open world and instanced content isn't the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And yet they provide the same experience: a group of players fighting mobs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope. OW is actual MMO content, while instanced content is just lobby based, nothing massively about that. > > > > > > > > > > > > And yet in any other MMO raids are considered PvE. So tell me, why should it be different for GW2 ? > > > > > > > > > > I'm not saying it's not PvE, i'm saying it has nothing to do with the massively part of an MMORPG. > > > > > WvW and SPvP are both PvP gamemodes, yet they aren't the same, they don't provide the same experience. Same goes for OW and Raids. I would even go so far and say Fractals/Dungeons and Raids are different gamemodes. > > > > > > > > > > Squares and rectangles are both quadrilaterals/quadrangles, yet they aren't the same. > > > > > > > > Nice semantics, except it doesn’t explain why open world should get legendary armor. Guess what ?raids, fractals, dungeons, strike missions and even visions of the past (in the near future) are PvE. > > > > > > Yeah, and guess what, PvP and WvW both have legendary armors. I'm not sure what you're arguing here, because you don't make sense. The reason is simple: every gamemode should have full legendary sets. > > > > Quite easy I would say. Here is how the logic applies: > > PvP has legendary armor. > > WvW has legendary armor. > > PvE who has raids, fractals, open world, strike missions and upcoming visions of the past ( which involves a group of players fighting mobs at a basic level) has legendary armor. > > > > The issue I see here is that you are stubborn to recognize that instanced content is part of PvE, even though Anet and all the other MMOs consider open world and endgame instanced content PvE. > > > > I wish you good luck to convince Anet and the all the MMO developers that instanced content is not part of PvE because if I go by your logic, that would mean the basic story that is delivered through the story journal is not PvE. > > > > Sorry I just cannot agree with all of that. > > Sounds to me like you're more stubborn than even me. SPvP and WvW are both PvP gamemodes. So why are there 2 armors then? Because they are different PvP gamemodes. Same goes for Raids, fractals and OW. They are different PvE gamemodes. They are different in different ways. Its really a false equivalence you're trying to make to prove a point. The argument you're trying to make would be like a PvP player saying that Stronghold should have its own armour or a WvW player saying that the Edge of the Mists should have its own armour. I mean even in PvP there is a reason you only get certain rewards from Ranked instead of unranked/custom arena/hot-join and in WvW from the main borderlands instead of EotM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raknar.4735 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"Funky.4861" said: > The thing is, legendary armour is based on overcoming difficulty with skill/determination, not on game mode, or the popularity of said game mode; those arguments are not valid. Seeing as raids and fracs are the highest level of difficulty in pve, that's where you find the legendary armour; it doesn't matter a whit whether they are instanced or not. WvW behaves like an instance, because whenever i log out i don't log back in to a wvw map, but to the pvp lobby or whatever pve map i was on beforehand. Locking oneself out of instanced content also means locking oneself out of its rewards. You can reiterate your opinion as many times as you want, it will not change mine. You can keep saying my arguments are invalid based on your arbitrary metrics, yet they aren't any less worth than yours. Popularity is the metric that keeps MMOs alive. Funny that overcoming difficulty also works with enough gold, since raidselling is a thing. Saying WvW is an instance based solely on the location you're in when you relog? What a joke, talk about arbitary. > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please no. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, at this point it is sheer laziness. Take a look at what they have been doing to make legendary armor more accessible over the recent years: > > > > > > > > > > > > > -they made legendary armor accessible to all game modes > > > > > > > > > > > > > -they created 10 man easy content for players just so that we can have an easier time getting into 10 man content > > > > > > > > > > > > > And taking into account all of that, they also made the effort to create the build templates which actually made legendary armor even less relevant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it is enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Time i learned open world pve(the only place that doesnt have it own armor set) isnt a game mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hate to break it to you but raids are actually PvE. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Open world and instanced content isn't the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And yet they provide the same experience: a group of players fighting mobs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope. OW is actual MMO content, while instanced content is just lobby based, nothing massively about that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And yet in any other MMO raids are considered PvE. So tell me, why should it be different for GW2 ? > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not saying it's not PvE, i'm saying it has nothing to do with the massively part of an MMORPG. > > > > > > WvW and SPvP are both PvP gamemodes, yet they aren't the same, they don't provide the same experience. Same goes for OW and Raids. I would even go so far and say Fractals/Dungeons and Raids are different gamemodes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Squares and rectangles are both quadrilaterals/quadrangles, yet they aren't the same. > > > > > > > > > > Nice semantics, except it doesn’t explain why open world should get legendary armor. Guess what ?raids, fractals, dungeons, strike missions and even visions of the past (in the near future) are PvE. > > > > > > > > Yeah, and guess what, PvP and WvW both have legendary armors. I'm not sure what you're arguing here, because you don't make sense. The reason is simple: every gamemode should have full legendary sets. > > > > > > Quite easy I would say. Here is how the logic applies: > > > PvP has legendary armor. > > > WvW has legendary armor. > > > PvE who has raids, fractals, open world, strike missions and upcoming visions of the past ( which involves a group of players fighting mobs at a basic level) has legendary armor. > > > > > > The issue I see here is that you are stubborn to recognize that instanced content is part of PvE, even though Anet and all the other MMOs consider open world and endgame instanced content PvE. > > > > > > I wish you good luck to convince Anet and the all the MMO developers that instanced content is not part of PvE because if I go by your logic, that would mean the basic story that is delivered through the story journal is not PvE. > > > > > > Sorry I just cannot agree with all of that. > > > > Sounds to me like you're more stubborn than even me. SPvP and WvW are both PvP gamemodes. So why are there 2 armors then? Because they are different PvP gamemodes. Same goes for Raids, fractals and OW. They are different PvE gamemodes. > > They are different in different ways. Its really a false equivalence you're trying to make to prove a point. > > The argument you're trying to make would be like a PvP player saying that Stronghold should have its own armour or a WvW player saying that the Edge of the Mists should have its own armour. I mean even in PvP there is a reason you only get certain rewards from Ranked instead of unranked/custom arena/hot-join and in WvW from the main borderlands instead of EotM. > > Wrong, that's not my argument. Conquest and Stronghold are both structured PvP modes with a certain amount of players. SPvP. Edge of the Mists is just another WvW map that is sadly not used, it doesn't change the core gameplay. It still belongs to WvW as a whole. There's no false equivalence here. Same thing with PvE: Raids and Dungeons/Fractals are instanced, structured content, while OW is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante.1763 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > One of the issues that continues to plague this game is that players continue to not treat GW2 as just a single, whole game but instead as 5+ games. > > You have some players that do only sPvP and want what is offered in other areas of the game. > You have some players that do only WvW and want what is offered in other areas of the game. > You have some players that do only open world and want what is offered in other areas of the game. > You have some players that do only fractals and want what is offered in other areas of the game. Thats because the modes dont blend well. > @"Funky.4861" said: > The thing is, legendary armour is based on overcoming difficulty with skill/determination, not on game mode, or the popularity of said game mode; those arguments are not valid. Seeing as raids and fracs are the highest level of difficulty in pve, that's where you find the legendary armour; it doesn't matter a whit whether they are instanced or not. WvW behaves like an instance, because whenever i log out i don't log back in to a wvw map, but to the pvp lobby or whatever pve map i was on beforehand. Locking oneself out of instanced content also means locking oneself out of its rewards. there is no difficulty if one buys raids(obviously not many can afford to do so, but it is a huge counter argument.) . As i stated earlier, the only armour by your logic that deserves to be in game at all are the pvp and wvw versions to which i disagree, literally every game mode should have its own version of legendary armor, weapons, backpack and trinkets, rings, and as bad as it sounds aqua breathers. So it would be four sets total, Open World PVE, Raids/Fractals, WVW, and PVP. They dont need to have unique skins i just want the functionality. Lemme upgrade my ascended sets i crafted into legendary sets with the same appearance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"Raknar.4735" said: > Wrong, that's not my argument. Conquest and Stronghold are both structured PvP modes with a certain amount of players. SPvP. > Edge of the Mists is just another WvW map that is sadly not used, it doesn't change the core gameplay. It still belongs to WvW as a whole. > > There's no false equivalence here. > > Same thing with PvE: > > Raids and Dungeons/Fractals are instanced, structured content, while OW is not. So : Stronghold and pvp - both PvP modes, fundamentally the same system but slightly different objectives and means of success. WvW and Eotm - both WvW modes, fundamentally the same system but slightly different objectives and means of success. OW and fractals/raids - both PvE modes, fundamentally the same system but slightly different objectives and means of success. Hence my point. Regardless of if they are instanced or structured it doesn't prevent them from being grouped as PvE content to which end already has a set of armour. I mean in your own words the "core game-play" doesn't change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raknar.4735 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > Wrong, that's not my argument. Conquest and Stronghold are both structured PvP modes with a certain amount of players. SPvP. > > Edge of the Mists is just another WvW map that is sadly not used, it doesn't change the core gameplay. It still belongs to WvW as a whole. > > > > There's no false equivalence here. > > > > Same thing with PvE: > > > > Raids and Dungeons/Fractals are instanced, structured content, while OW is not. > > So : > Stronghold and pvp - both PvP modes, fundamentally the same system but slightly different objectives and means of success. > WvW and Eotm - both WvW modes, fundamentally the same system but slightly different objectives and means of success. > OW and fractals/raids - both PvE modes, fundamentally the same system but slightly different objectives and means of success. > > Hence my point. > Regardless of if they are instanced or structured it doesn't prevent them from being grouped as PvE content to which end already has a set of armour. I mean in your own words the "core game-play" doesn't change. > > If you're treating OW and Raids as the same PvE content, then treat SPvP and WvW the same, as PvP content. To me it looks like you're creating a false link between OW and Instanced content. The core game-play between OW and Raids/Fractals is drastically different. Their structure is completely different. Your "fundamentally the same system" seems to work for everything. Why not just group every gamemode under "Gameplay Mode", since you seem to be fond of that. Guess we don't need any new content, since they're all based on the same combat system, just different objectives and means of success. And stop putting WvW into a "WvW mode". It still belongs to the PvP category and is a PvP mode. EotM never really was a own mode, it was just a overflow map. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seera.5916 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > Wrong, that's not my argument. Conquest and Stronghold are both structured PvP modes with a certain amount of players. SPvP. > > > Edge of the Mists is just another WvW map that is sadly not used, it doesn't change the core gameplay. It still belongs to WvW as a whole. > > > > > > There's no false equivalence here. > > > > > > Same thing with PvE: > > > > > > Raids and Dungeons/Fractals are instanced, structured content, while OW is not. > > > > So : > > Stronghold and pvp - both PvP modes, fundamentally the same system but slightly different objectives and means of success. > > WvW and Eotm - both WvW modes, fundamentally the same system but slightly different objectives and means of success. > > OW and fractals/raids - both PvE modes, fundamentally the same system but slightly different objectives and means of success. > > > > Hence my point. > > Regardless of if they are instanced or structured it doesn't prevent them from being grouped as PvE content to which end already has a set of armour. I mean in your own words the "core game-play" doesn't change. > > > > > > If you're treating OW and Raids as the same PvE content, then treat SPvP and WvW the same, as PvP content. > To me it looks like you're creating a false link between OW and Instanced content. > The core game-play between OW and Raids/Fractals is drastically different. Their structure is completely different. > > Your "fundamentally the same system" seems to work for everything. Why not just group every gamemode under "Gameplay Mode", since you seem to be fond of that. Guess we don't need any new content, since they're all based on the same combat system, just different objectives and means of success. > > And stop putting WvW into a "WvW mode". It still belongs to the PvP category and is a PvP mode. EotM never really was a own mode, it was just a overflow map. Actually PvP and WvW are different enough to be considered separate game modes. Open world and instanced PvE content are not different enough to be considered separate game modes. They are both purely player vs environment. The only difference between them is their difficulty level. Hard mode of a single player RPG is not a different game to Easy mode of the same single player RPG. And PvE armor does already require play in the open world to obtain. It's the precursor that's obtained through raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raknar.4735 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"Seera.5916" said: > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > Wrong, that's not my argument. Conquest and Stronghold are both structured PvP modes with a certain amount of players. SPvP. > > > > Edge of the Mists is just another WvW map that is sadly not used, it doesn't change the core gameplay. It still belongs to WvW as a whole. > > > > > > > > There's no false equivalence here. > > > > > > > > Same thing with PvE: > > > > > > > > Raids and Dungeons/Fractals are instanced, structured content, while OW is not. > > > > > > So : > > > Stronghold and pvp - both PvP modes, fundamentally the same system but slightly different objectives and means of success. > > > WvW and Eotm - both WvW modes, fundamentally the same system but slightly different objectives and means of success. > > > OW and fractals/raids - both PvE modes, fundamentally the same system but slightly different objectives and means of success. > > > > > > Hence my point. > > > Regardless of if they are instanced or structured it doesn't prevent them from being grouped as PvE content to which end already has a set of armour. I mean in your own words the "core game-play" doesn't change. > > > > > > > > > > If you're treating OW and Raids as the same PvE content, then treat SPvP and WvW the same, as PvP content. > > To me it looks like you're creating a false link between OW and Instanced content. > > The core game-play between OW and Raids/Fractals is drastically different. Their structure is completely different. > > > > Your "fundamentally the same system" seems to work for everything. Why not just group every gamemode under "Gameplay Mode", since you seem to be fond of that. Guess we don't need any new content, since they're all based on the same combat system, just different objectives and means of success. > > > > And stop putting WvW into a "WvW mode". It still belongs to the PvP category and is a PvP mode. EotM never really was a own mode, it was just a overflow map. > > Actually PvP and WvW are different enough to be considered separate game modes. > > Open world and instanced PvE content are not different enough to be considered separate game modes. They are both purely player vs environment. The only difference between them is their difficulty level. Hard mode of a single player RPG is not a different game to Easy mode of the same single player RPG. > > And PvE armor does already require play in the open world to obtain. It's the precursor that's obtained through raids. Their difficulty level, the level of cooperation between the players, the maximum amount of players, the fact that you have to group up (If you're not doing some solo kill on a raid boss), not being able to revive fully dead players, not being able to "waypoint-zerg"... There are a lot of differences, even mechanical changes. Raids and OW are distinct enough that people are calling themselves raiders, and some calling themselves OW-players. Comparing difficulties in a single player RPG to the difference of open world and raids is pretty daring, as they mostly just adjust damage and hp numbers, not some completely different mechanics (there are, of course, exceptions). Legendary Weapons also require WvW and Dungeon tokens, yet they are mostly seen as open world legendaries. Edit: Also, I do consider WvW and SPvP separate gamemodes, yet they are still both PvP gamemodes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seera.5916 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > Wrong, that's not my argument. Conquest and Stronghold are both structured PvP modes with a certain amount of players. SPvP. > > > > > Edge of the Mists is just another WvW map that is sadly not used, it doesn't change the core gameplay. It still belongs to WvW as a whole. > > > > > > > > > > There's no false equivalence here. > > > > > > > > > > Same thing with PvE: > > > > > > > > > > Raids and Dungeons/Fractals are instanced, structured content, while OW is not. > > > > > > > > So : > > > > Stronghold and pvp - both PvP modes, fundamentally the same system but slightly different objectives and means of success. > > > > WvW and Eotm - both WvW modes, fundamentally the same system but slightly different objectives and means of success. > > > > OW and fractals/raids - both PvE modes, fundamentally the same system but slightly different objectives and means of success. > > > > > > > > Hence my point. > > > > Regardless of if they are instanced or structured it doesn't prevent them from being grouped as PvE content to which end already has a set of armour. I mean in your own words the "core game-play" doesn't change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you're treating OW and Raids as the same PvE content, then treat SPvP and WvW the same, as PvP content. > > > To me it looks like you're creating a false link between OW and Instanced content. > > > The core game-play between OW and Raids/Fractals is drastically different. Their structure is completely different. > > > > > > Your "fundamentally the same system" seems to work for everything. Why not just group every gamemode under "Gameplay Mode", since you seem to be fond of that. Guess we don't need any new content, since they're all based on the same combat system, just different objectives and means of success. > > > > > > And stop putting WvW into a "WvW mode". It still belongs to the PvP category and is a PvP mode. EotM never really was a own mode, it was just a overflow map. > > > > Actually PvP and WvW are different enough to be considered separate game modes. > > > > Open world and instanced PvE content are not different enough to be considered separate game modes. They are both purely player vs environment. The only difference between them is their difficulty level. Hard mode of a single player RPG is not a different game to Easy mode of the same single player RPG. > > > > And PvE armor does already require play in the open world to obtain. It's the precursor that's obtained through raids. > > Their difficulty level, the level of cooperation between the players, the maximum amount of players, the fact that you have to group up (If you're not doing some solo kill on a raid boss), not being able to revive fully dead players, not being able to "waypoint-zerg"... > There are a lot of differences, even mechanical changes. > Raids and OW are distinct enough that people are calling themselves raiders, and some calling themselves OW-players. > > Comparing difficulties in a single player RPG to the difference of open world and raids is pretty daring, as they mostly just adjust damage and hp numbers, not some completely different mechanics (there are, of course, exceptions). > > Legendary Weapons also require WvW and Dungeon tokens, yet they are mostly seen as open world legendaries. > Not enough differences to be considered a different mode. It's a difficulty change. They've put in different mechanics to achieve that difficulty increase. But it is just a difficulty increase. If you've actually looked at the PvE legendary armor you'd see that it requires raids, fractals, AND open world PvE in order to complete. Meaning that it is armor for all of PvE. Not just raids. Yet they aren't open world legendary weapons. They are just legendary weapons. Because there isn't a method that just requires PvP or a method that just requires WvW. There are just legendary weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raknar.4735 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"Seera.5916" said: > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > Wrong, that's not my argument. Conquest and Stronghold are both structured PvP modes with a certain amount of players. SPvP. > > > > > > Edge of the Mists is just another WvW map that is sadly not used, it doesn't change the core gameplay. It still belongs to WvW as a whole. > > > > > > > > > > > > There's no false equivalence here. > > > > > > > > > > > > Same thing with PvE: > > > > > > > > > > > > Raids and Dungeons/Fractals are instanced, structured content, while OW is not. > > > > > > > > > > So : > > > > > Stronghold and pvp - both PvP modes, fundamentally the same system but slightly different objectives and means of success. > > > > > WvW and Eotm - both WvW modes, fundamentally the same system but slightly different objectives and means of success. > > > > > OW and fractals/raids - both PvE modes, fundamentally the same system but slightly different objectives and means of success. > > > > > > > > > > Hence my point. > > > > > Regardless of if they are instanced or structured it doesn't prevent them from being grouped as PvE content to which end already has a set of armour. I mean in your own words the "core game-play" doesn't change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you're treating OW and Raids as the same PvE content, then treat SPvP and WvW the same, as PvP content. > > > > To me it looks like you're creating a false link between OW and Instanced content. > > > > The core game-play between OW and Raids/Fractals is drastically different. Their structure is completely different. > > > > > > > > Your "fundamentally the same system" seems to work for everything. Why not just group every gamemode under "Gameplay Mode", since you seem to be fond of that. Guess we don't need any new content, since they're all based on the same combat system, just different objectives and means of success. > > > > > > > > And stop putting WvW into a "WvW mode". It still belongs to the PvP category and is a PvP mode. EotM never really was a own mode, it was just a overflow map. > > > > > > Actually PvP and WvW are different enough to be considered separate game modes. > > > > > > Open world and instanced PvE content are not different enough to be considered separate game modes. They are both purely player vs environment. The only difference between them is their difficulty level. Hard mode of a single player RPG is not a different game to Easy mode of the same single player RPG. > > > > > > And PvE armor does already require play in the open world to obtain. It's the precursor that's obtained through raids. > > > > Their difficulty level, the level of cooperation between the players, the maximum amount of players, the fact that you have to group up (If you're not doing some solo kill on a raid boss), not being able to revive fully dead players, not being able to "waypoint-zerg"... > > There are a lot of differences, even mechanical changes. > > Raids and OW are distinct enough that people are calling themselves raiders, and some calling themselves OW-players. > > > > Comparing difficulties in a single player RPG to the difference of open world and raids is pretty daring, as they mostly just adjust damage and hp numbers, not some completely different mechanics (there are, of course, exceptions). > > > > Legendary Weapons also require WvW and Dungeon tokens, yet they are mostly seen as open world legendaries. > > > > Not enough differences to be considered a different mode. It's a difficulty change. They've put in different mechanics to achieve that difficulty increase. But it is just a difficulty increase. > > If you've actually looked at the PvE legendary armor you'd see that it requires raids, fractals, AND open world PvE in order to complete. Meaning that it is armor for all of PvE. Not just raids. > > Yet they aren't open world legendary weapons. They are just legendary weapons. Because there isn't a method that just requires PvP or a method that just requires WvW. There are just legendary weapons. Enough difference that Anet always lists them separately in update patchnotes, and that there's a group that considers themselves raiders. If you're only seeing a difficulty change, I don't know what to tell you. Raiders are not going to like it if you tell them they get enough PvE content, when Anet releases PvE maps. They want Raids and similiar structured PvE content. The only thing needed for legendary armor from fractals are Stabilizing Matrices afaik. Those are also needed in the PvP versions of the legendary armor. Guess they aren't even PvP armors, just PvP/Fractals and WvW/Fractals armors. So if we're going by material costs like you do, fractals actually has 3 legendary armors! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"Dante.1763" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > One of the issues that continues to plague this game is that players continue to not treat GW2 as just a single, whole game but instead as 5+ games. > > > > You have some players that do only sPvP and want what is offered in other areas of the game. > > You have some players that do only WvW and want what is offered in other areas of the game. > > You have some players that do only open world and want what is offered in other areas of the game. > > You have some players that do only fractals and want what is offered in other areas of the game. > > Thats because the modes dont blend well. That really doesn't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seera.5916 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > > Wrong, that's not my argument. Conquest and Stronghold are both structured PvP modes with a certain amount of players. SPvP. > > > > > > > Edge of the Mists is just another WvW map that is sadly not used, it doesn't change the core gameplay. It still belongs to WvW as a whole. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's no false equivalence here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Same thing with PvE: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raids and Dungeons/Fractals are instanced, structured content, while OW is not. > > > > > > > > > > > > So : > > > > > > Stronghold and pvp - both PvP modes, fundamentally the same system but slightly different objectives and means of success. > > > > > > WvW and Eotm - both WvW modes, fundamentally the same system but slightly different objectives and means of success. > > > > > > OW and fractals/raids - both PvE modes, fundamentally the same system but slightly different objectives and means of success. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hence my point. > > > > > > Regardless of if they are instanced or structured it doesn't prevent them from being grouped as PvE content to which end already has a set of armour. I mean in your own words the "core game-play" doesn't change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you're treating OW and Raids as the same PvE content, then treat SPvP and WvW the same, as PvP content. > > > > > To me it looks like you're creating a false link between OW and Instanced content. > > > > > The core game-play between OW and Raids/Fractals is drastically different. Their structure is completely different. > > > > > > > > > > Your "fundamentally the same system" seems to work for everything. Why not just group every gamemode under "Gameplay Mode", since you seem to be fond of that. Guess we don't need any new content, since they're all based on the same combat system, just different objectives and means of success. > > > > > > > > > > And stop putting WvW into a "WvW mode". It still belongs to the PvP category and is a PvP mode. EotM never really was a own mode, it was just a overflow map. > > > > > > > > Actually PvP and WvW are different enough to be considered separate game modes. > > > > > > > > Open world and instanced PvE content are not different enough to be considered separate game modes. They are both purely player vs environment. The only difference between them is their difficulty level. Hard mode of a single player RPG is not a different game to Easy mode of the same single player RPG. > > > > > > > > And PvE armor does already require play in the open world to obtain. It's the precursor that's obtained through raids. > > > > > > Their difficulty level, the level of cooperation between the players, the maximum amount of players, the fact that you have to group up (If you're not doing some solo kill on a raid boss), not being able to revive fully dead players, not being able to "waypoint-zerg"... > > > There are a lot of differences, even mechanical changes. > > > Raids and OW are distinct enough that people are calling themselves raiders, and some calling themselves OW-players. > > > > > > Comparing difficulties in a single player RPG to the difference of open world and raids is pretty daring, as they mostly just adjust damage and hp numbers, not some completely different mechanics (there are, of course, exceptions). > > > > > > Legendary Weapons also require WvW and Dungeon tokens, yet they are mostly seen as open world legendaries. > > > > > > > Not enough differences to be considered a different mode. It's a difficulty change. They've put in different mechanics to achieve that difficulty increase. But it is just a difficulty increase. > > > > If you've actually looked at the PvE legendary armor you'd see that it requires raids, fractals, AND open world PvE in order to complete. Meaning that it is armor for all of PvE. Not just raids. > > > > Yet they aren't open world legendary weapons. They are just legendary weapons. Because there isn't a method that just requires PvP or a method that just requires WvW. There are just legendary weapons. > > Enough difference that Anet always lists them separately in update patchnotes, and that there's a group that considers themselves raiders. If you're only seeing a difficulty change, I don't know what to tell you. > Raiders are not going to like it if you tell them they get enough PvE content, when Anet releases PvE maps. They want Raids and similiar structured PvE content. > > The only thing needed for legendary armor from fractals are Stabilizing Matrices afaik. Those are also needed in the PvP versions of the legendary armor. Guess they aren't even PvP armors, just PvP/Fractals and WvW/Fractals armors. > > So if we're going by material costs like you do, fractals actually has 3 legendary armors! And ANet puts story stuff separate as well from regular open world stuff. It's how they do their patch notes. So that if someone was looking to see if a bug got fixed, they can easily find out if it has or has not. And again that's the difficulty speaking. Raids are a much higher difficulty and some people want that level of difficulty. So yes, they will complain if ANet isn't releasing content for their preferred difficulty level. I see you haven't looked at the list of things required for legendary armor or read my reply correctly. I said open world PvE. That's more than just Fractals. So please read again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raknar.4735 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"Seera.5916" said: > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > > > Wrong, that's not my argument. Conquest and Stronghold are both structured PvP modes with a certain amount of players. SPvP. > > > > > > > > Edge of the Mists is just another WvW map that is sadly not used, it doesn't change the core gameplay. It still belongs to WvW as a whole. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's no false equivalence here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Same thing with PvE: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raids and Dungeons/Fractals are instanced, structured content, while OW is not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So : > > > > > > > Stronghold and pvp - both PvP modes, fundamentally the same system but slightly different objectives and means of success. > > > > > > > WvW and Eotm - both WvW modes, fundamentally the same system but slightly different objectives and means of success. > > > > > > > OW and fractals/raids - both PvE modes, fundamentally the same system but slightly different objectives and means of success. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hence my point. > > > > > > > Regardless of if they are instanced or structured it doesn't prevent them from being grouped as PvE content to which end already has a set of armour. I mean in your own words the "core game-play" doesn't change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you're treating OW and Raids as the same PvE content, then treat SPvP and WvW the same, as PvP content. > > > > > > To me it looks like you're creating a false link between OW and Instanced content. > > > > > > The core game-play between OW and Raids/Fractals is drastically different. Their structure is completely different. > > > > > > > > > > > > Your "fundamentally the same system" seems to work for everything. Why not just group every gamemode under "Gameplay Mode", since you seem to be fond of that. Guess we don't need any new content, since they're all based on the same combat system, just different objectives and means of success. > > > > > > > > > > > > And stop putting WvW into a "WvW mode". It still belongs to the PvP category and is a PvP mode. EotM never really was a own mode, it was just a overflow map. > > > > > > > > > > Actually PvP and WvW are different enough to be considered separate game modes. > > > > > > > > > > Open world and instanced PvE content are not different enough to be considered separate game modes. They are both purely player vs environment. The only difference between them is their difficulty level. Hard mode of a single player RPG is not a different game to Easy mode of the same single player RPG. > > > > > > > > > > And PvE armor does already require play in the open world to obtain. It's the precursor that's obtained through raids. > > > > > > > > Their difficulty level, the level of cooperation between the players, the maximum amount of players, the fact that you have to group up (If you're not doing some solo kill on a raid boss), not being able to revive fully dead players, not being able to "waypoint-zerg"... > > > > There are a lot of differences, even mechanical changes. > > > > Raids and OW are distinct enough that people are calling themselves raiders, and some calling themselves OW-players. > > > > > > > > Comparing difficulties in a single player RPG to the difference of open world and raids is pretty daring, as they mostly just adjust damage and hp numbers, not some completely different mechanics (there are, of course, exceptions). > > > > > > > > Legendary Weapons also require WvW and Dungeon tokens, yet they are mostly seen as open world legendaries. > > > > > > > > > > Not enough differences to be considered a different mode. It's a difficulty change. They've put in different mechanics to achieve that difficulty increase. But it is just a difficulty increase. > > > > > > If you've actually looked at the PvE legendary armor you'd see that it requires raids, fractals, AND open world PvE in order to complete. Meaning that it is armor for all of PvE. Not just raids. > > > > > > Yet they aren't open world legendary weapons. They are just legendary weapons. Because there isn't a method that just requires PvP or a method that just requires WvW. There are just legendary weapons. > > > > Enough difference that Anet always lists them separately in update patchnotes, and that there's a group that considers themselves raiders. If you're only seeing a difficulty change, I don't know what to tell you. > > Raiders are not going to like it if you tell them they get enough PvE content, when Anet releases PvE maps. They want Raids and similiar structured PvE content. > > > > The only thing needed for legendary armor from fractals are Stabilizing Matrices afaik. Those are also needed in the PvP versions of the legendary armor. Guess they aren't even PvP armors, just PvP/Fractals and WvW/Fractals armors. > > > > So if we're going by material costs like you do, fractals actually has 3 legendary armors! > > And ANet puts story stuff separate as well from regular open world stuff. It's how they do their patch notes. So that if someone was looking to see if a bug got fixed, they can easily find out if it has or has not. > > And again that's the difficulty speaking. Raids are a much higher difficulty and some people want that level of difficulty. So yes, they will complain if ANet isn't releasing content for their preferred difficulty level. > > I see you haven't looked at the list of things required for legendary armor or read my reply correctly. I said open world PvE. That's more than just Fractals. So please read again. They put story separate because they don't put story into the same category as open world. Story isn't open world for Anet. Same thing with the new "Visions of the Past". It's not just difficulty, but I don't mind repeating myself, since you're just doing the same. They aren't only there for the difficulty, they also like the structured part and the more cooperative gameplay. Guess I'll start calling raids "Higher difficulty Level open world", instead of raids, since that's all they are to you. I see you yourself haven't looked at the things required for legendary armor. I talked about Fractals since you mentioned them, too. They are also needed for the PvP Leg armor, yet i won't call PvP Leg armor "SPvP/fractal" or "WvW/fractal" armor. For the same reason i won't call the Raid Leg Armor "PvE Leg armor": the materials needed from other gamemodes are barely relevant. Guess you just couldn't make the connection. My bad. 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flog.3485 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Please no. > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, at this point it is sheer laziness. Take a look at what they have been doing to make legendary armor more accessible over the recent years: > > > > > > > > > > > > -they made legendary armor accessible to all game modes > > > > > > > > > > > > -they created 10 man easy content for players just so that we can have an easier time getting into 10 man content > > > > > > > > > > > > And taking into account all of that, they also made the effort to create the build templates which actually made legendary armor even less relevant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it is enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Time i learned open world pve(the only place that doesnt have it own armor set) isnt a game mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hate to break it to you but raids are actually PvE. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Open world and instanced content isn't the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And yet they provide the same experience: a group of players fighting mobs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope. OW is actual MMO content, while instanced content is just lobby based, nothing massively about that. > > > > > > > > > > > > And yet in any other MMO raids are considered PvE. So tell me, why should it be different for GW2 ? > > > > > > > > > > I'm not saying it's not PvE, i'm saying it has nothing to do with the massively part of an MMORPG. > > > > > WvW and SPvP are both PvP gamemodes, yet they aren't the same, they don't provide the same experience. Same goes for OW and Raids. I would even go so far and say Fractals/Dungeons and Raids are different gamemodes. > > > > > > > > > > Squares and rectangles are both quadrilaterals/quadrangles, yet they aren't the same. > > > > > > > > Nice semantics, except it doesn’t explain why open world should get legendary armor. Guess what ?raids, fractals, dungeons, strike missions and even visions of the past (in the near future) are PvE. > > > > > > Yeah, and guess what, PvP and WvW both have legendary armors. I'm not sure what you're arguing here, because you don't make sense. The reason is simple: every gamemode should have full legendary sets. > > > > Quite easy I would say. Here is how the logic applies: > > PvP has legendary armor. > > WvW has legendary armor. > > PvE who has raids, fractals, open world, strike missions and upcoming visions of the past ( which involves a group of players fighting mobs at a basic level) has legendary armor. > > > > The issue I see here is that you are stubborn to recognize that instanced content is part of PvE, even though Anet and all the other MMOs consider open world and endgame instanced content PvE. > > > > I wish you good luck to convince Anet and the all the MMO developers that instanced content is not part of PvE because if I go by your logic, that would mean the basic story that is delivered through the story journal is not PvE. > > > > Sorry I just cannot agree with all of that. > > Sounds to me like you're more stubborn than even me. SPvP and WvW are both PvP gamemodes. So why are there 2 armors then? Because they are different PvP gamemodes. Same goes for Raids, fractals and OW. They are different PvE gamemodes. You're still talking as if i'm saying they're not PvE gamemodes, and not applying my logic at all. > > I guess you would be able to replace osmium as the densest material on earth ;) . Well it is a good point you are bringing. Sounds to me like if I were in Anets’ shoes, I would make sure that SPvP players had a way to get into WvW to play a different kind of PvP. I also think they allowed WvW to have legendary armor just because their metrics showed that some PvE players also played WvW (since the interest to only play WvW has always been quite low due to a lack of updates) and so they didn’t want PvE players to be forced only into raids (even though it was like that for a while) because the players that went high end instanced content (fractals) were also low. Other than that I suggest you take a look at the requirements of legendary armor in PvE: it does involve playing HoT metas. Creating an only open world legendary armor would completely devalue HoT at this point and since the resources are already spread thin into developing the saga, the strike missions and the visions, I really don’t see them handling another big project. If you think about it it would be like creating gen 2 early hot legendaries x6 and we all know how bad and difficult that project turned out to be for the devs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raknar.4735 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"flog.3485" said: > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please no. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, at this point it is sheer laziness. Take a look at what they have been doing to make legendary armor more accessible over the recent years: > > > > > > > > > > > > > -they made legendary armor accessible to all game modes > > > > > > > > > > > > > -they created 10 man easy content for players just so that we can have an easier time getting into 10 man content > > > > > > > > > > > > > And taking into account all of that, they also made the effort to create the build templates which actually made legendary armor even less relevant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it is enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Time i learned open world pve(the only place that doesnt have it own armor set) isnt a game mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hate to break it to you but raids are actually PvE. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Open world and instanced content isn't the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And yet they provide the same experience: a group of players fighting mobs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope. OW is actual MMO content, while instanced content is just lobby based, nothing massively about that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And yet in any other MMO raids are considered PvE. So tell me, why should it be different for GW2 ? > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not saying it's not PvE, i'm saying it has nothing to do with the massively part of an MMORPG. > > > > > > WvW and SPvP are both PvP gamemodes, yet they aren't the same, they don't provide the same experience. Same goes for OW and Raids. I would even go so far and say Fractals/Dungeons and Raids are different gamemodes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Squares and rectangles are both quadrilaterals/quadrangles, yet they aren't the same. > > > > > > > > > > Nice semantics, except it doesn’t explain why open world should get legendary armor. Guess what ?raids, fractals, dungeons, strike missions and even visions of the past (in the near future) are PvE. > > > > > > > > Yeah, and guess what, PvP and WvW both have legendary armors. I'm not sure what you're arguing here, because you don't make sense. The reason is simple: every gamemode should have full legendary sets. > > > > > > Quite easy I would say. Here is how the logic applies: > > > PvP has legendary armor. > > > WvW has legendary armor. > > > PvE who has raids, fractals, open world, strike missions and upcoming visions of the past ( which involves a group of players fighting mobs at a basic level) has legendary armor. > > > > > > The issue I see here is that you are stubborn to recognize that instanced content is part of PvE, even though Anet and all the other MMOs consider open world and endgame instanced content PvE. > > > > > > I wish you good luck to convince Anet and the all the MMO developers that instanced content is not part of PvE because if I go by your logic, that would mean the basic story that is delivered through the story journal is not PvE. > > > > > > Sorry I just cannot agree with all of that. > > > > Sounds to me like you're more stubborn than even me. SPvP and WvW are both PvP gamemodes. So why are there 2 armors then? Because they are different PvP gamemodes. Same goes for Raids, fractals and OW. They are different PvE gamemodes. You're still talking as if i'm saying they're not PvE gamemodes, and not applying my logic at all. > > > > I guess you would be able to replace osmium as the densest material on earth ;) . > > Well it is a good point you are bringing. Sounds to me like if I were in Anets’ shoes, I would make sure that SPvP players had a way to get into WvW to play a different kind of PvP. I also think they allowed WvW to have legendary armor just because their metrics showed that some PvE players also played WvW (since the interest to only play WvW has always been quite low due to a lack of updates) and so they didn’t want PvE players to be forced only into raids (even though it was like that for a while) because the players that went high end instanced content (fractals) were also low. > > Other than that I suggest you take a look at the requirements of legendary armor in PvE: it does involve playing HoT metas. > Creating an only open world legendary armor would completely devalue HoT at this point and since the resources are already spread thin into developing the saga, the strike missions and the visions, I really don’t see them handling another big project. > If you think about it it would be like creating gen 2 early hot legendaries x6 and we all know how bad and difficult that project turned out to be for the devs. Be careful to not call WvW players PvEr's, they don't like that ;) . I'm not sure if combining PvP and WvW, as in creating some overlapping rewards, somehow would be good, but Anet is apparently planning some "PvP Events/Festivals", so that could help. Yeah, they do require HoT things, but those requirements are barely noticeable. Same thing for the PvP armors requiring matrices. I'm also not advocating creating completely new skins, I guess I should have clarified that earlier, just something similiar to what the PvP armors already are (For example giving an existing armor another expensive step, turning them into legendaries, without a new skin). Creating completely new legendary armor skins is not something they should do, like you said, it's just about the QoL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > One of the issues that continues to plague this game is that players continue to not treat GW2 as just a single, whole game but instead as 5+ games. > > You have some players that do only sPvP and want what is offered in other areas of the game. > You have some players that do only WvW and want what is offered in other areas of the game. > You have some players that do only open world and want what is offered in other areas of the game. > You have some players that do only fractals and want what is offered in other areas of the game. Not really true. It's only the Open World players that are asking for whatever PVP, WVW or Raids get. From the very old Gift of Battle, to the Legendary Back piece (before it was added to Fractals), to Legendary Armor from Raids. The thing is, if Arenanet decided to act on that, they'd have to give those other three everything available in the Open World, which is the vast majority of the rewards, they'd spent the next 5 years without implementing a single reward for the Open World, as they'd be busy giving the others what they've been missing the last 7 years. Heck even as far back as the Ascended Rings that were added into Fractals caused Open World players to ask (or rather beg) for them to be available in the Open World too. It's something as old as the game itself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raknar.4735 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > One of the issues that continues to plague this game is that players continue to not treat GW2 as just a single, whole game but instead as 5+ games. > > > > You have some players that do only sPvP and want what is offered in other areas of the game. > > You have some players that do only WvW and want what is offered in other areas of the game. > > You have some players that do only open world and want what is offered in other areas of the game. > > You have some players that do only fractals and want what is offered in other areas of the game. > > Not really true. It's only the Open World players that are asking for whatever PVP, WVW or Raids get. From the very old Gift of Battle, to the Legendary Back piece (before it was added to Fractals), to Legendary Armor from Raids. The thing is, if Arenanet decided to act on that, they'd have to give those other three everything available in the Open World, which is the vast majority of the rewards, they'd spent the next 5 years without implementing a single reward for the Open World, as they'd be busy giving the others what they've been missing the last 7 years. > > Heck even as far back as the Ascended Rings that were added into Fractals caused Open World players to ask (or rather beg) for them to be available in the Open World too. It's something as old as the game itself Raiders do the same: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/95256/legendary-raid-cape#latest Also PvP players and WvW players were asking about Legendary Armor a lot before they received it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HnRkLnXqZ.1870 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 By design, Raiding is the true method of acquiring Legendary Armor. It is fast and efficient. Every other method requires more time/effort. This is a choice that was made by the company. Let us have a quick look on the different methods, so you can see what this means (source): 1.) Raiding Depending on which wings you run, you can reach the goal in 6-10 weeks for your first set. 2.) sPvP (1 season = 8 weeks) [Method 1] 3 Seasons = 24 weeks = 6 months (extreme number of matches) [Method 2] 9 Seasons = 72 weeks = 18 months = 1.5 years (average number of matches) [Method 3] 16 Seasons = 128 weeks = 32 months = 2.7 years (low number of matches) 3.) WvW [standard Version] 21 weeks = 5.3 months [Premium Version] 25 weeks = 6.3 months Note: At this point, it looks like the best alternative to raiding. Until you learn how much time you have to play in WvW in each week. I fell for this trap as well. If you are curious, I give an example in the spoiler below. >! The wiki assumes you go for 365 Skirmish Claim Tickets per week, which is obviously the weekly cap. Tickets can be obtained by doing the Skirmish Reward Track which only progress in the Alpine Borderlands, Desert Borderlands and Eternal Battleground (no EotM). >! >! To progress in that reward-track, you need to acquire PiPs. You gain those PiPs every 5 minutes. The number of PiPs depends on a couple of factors. I do not want to make this too confusing. As a WvW newbie, what I am, you are lucky if you can get **10 PiPs from a single 5-minute-tick**. The WvW Veterans gain a lot more, but if you come straight from open world PvE, 10 is Awesome. You still need good timing and a little luck. 7 PiPs per 5-minute-tick is more realistic. >! >! How many PiPs does it take to gain those 365 Tickets? >! 1,450 >! >! [Lucky 10 PiPs per tick] 1,450 / 10 = 145 ticks || 145 * 5 = 725 minutes || 725 / 60 = 12.08 hours >! [Realistic 7 PiPs per tick] 1,450 / 7 = 207.14 ~ 208 ticks || 208 * 5 = 1,040 minutes || 1,040 / 60 = 17.33 hours >! >! One week has 7 days, one day has 24 hours. So far we agree I hope? With a job and being single you can probably manage to play 1h per day during the week = 5 h. If you are married, have pets, children or elders to take care of ... 1h is really optimistic. But it is just an example. >! >! [Lucky 10 PiPs per tick] 7.08 hours left for the weekend. >! [Realistic 7 PiPs per tick] 12.33 hours left for the weekend. >! >! Playing a total of 7-12 hours in a weekend is a challenge. If I still was in my teens, I would accept that challenge easily. I cannot farm those 365 Tickets per week, even if I would dedicate my entire playtime to WvW. But given the fact that I am a open world PvE player. No way, sorry. >! >! Let us make a calculation that is possible for an adult, without risking health. >! [7 PiPs per tick] 30 minutes playtime per day during week. This includes the days we cannot manage to turn the computer on at all and the days we can play for an entire hour. 2 hours at saturday and 2 hours at sunday. This is the time we dedicate for WvW/Legendary Armor. Still a huge chunk of time, but doable for some people. >! >! 30 x 5 + 60 x 4 = 390 minutes || 390 minutes / 5 = 78 ticks || 78 * 7 = 546 PiPs || 546 PiPs ~ 110 Tickets (rounded up) per week >! [standard Version] 7,880 Tickets / 110 Tickets per week = 71.64 weeks = 1.38 years >! [Premium Version] 9,190 Tickets / 110 Tickets per week = 83.55 weeks = 1.61 years And now you probably see the problem with a PvE open world version of the Legendary Armor. It would require a time-gate which would be significantly longer than Raiding and at least match the times for sPvP and WvW. I will not engage in the eternal argument. I know the raiders have a certain opinion about the worth of Open World PvE, but I will not discuss this here. It is just an infinite spiral of accusations and insults ... in the end the topic gets closed and deleted. The only PvE timegate which currently exists is already used on the Legendary Runes & Sigils, the Charged Quartz Crystal. You can fuse one per day per account, cannot trade them. There is a low chance to mine one as a bonus from the personal home-instance node. But there is one weak-point with this, people like me :S. I have an almost full stack of 250 Charged Quartz Crystals in my Storage. Some Veterans have a lot more. So if the time-gate of Legendary Armor was locked behind Charged Quartz Crystals, some PvE veterans could almost unlock it instantly. This would reward hoarding and drive the raiding-playerbase to go full berserk. We cannot do that. Not that I want to protect the raiders, but it would mess up the entire system. So we need a time-gate which does not work with hoarded ingredients. In open world PvE this is almost impossible to do. It was tried with ascended crafting, but you know how well that worked out. We would need a new item, with a very static time-gate. We could use the Worldboss Tokens from one of the filler events and make a weekly cap. Use the tokens to purchase items we need to forge the PvE Gift in the Mystic Forge. That would work. But what time-gate would be acceptable, without insulting the skill of Raiders, sPvP- and WvW players? At this point I may also add that the sPvP and WvW Legendary Armors are downgraded versions. You do not get the fully animated shiny skins of the Envoy Armor and the pieces do not count to the Legendary Armor achievement at all. The skins are mediocre at best. They are fully functional in terms of stat-swapping, but that is it. I guess this is one of the reasons why we do not have an Open World PvE Legendary Armor yet. Note: I probably made a couple of mistakes in my calculations. I rounded up a few times and made a few guesses, which may not suit your personal situation. The objective was not to depict reality as exactly as possible. Anyway, do as you please ^^. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > One of the issues that continues to plague this game is that players continue to not treat GW2 as just a single, whole game but instead as 5+ games. > > > > You have some players that do only sPvP and want what is offered in other areas of the game. > > You have some players that do only WvW and want what is offered in other areas of the game. > > You have some players that do only open world and want what is offered in other areas of the game. > > You have some players that do only fractals and want what is offered in other areas of the game. > > Not really true. It's only the Open World players that are asking for whatever PVP, WVW or Raids get. From the very old Gift of Battle, to the Legendary Back piece (before it was added to Fractals), to Legendary Armor from Raids. The thing is, if Arenanet decided to act on that, they'd have to give those other three everything available in the Open World, which is the vast majority of the rewards, they'd spent the next 5 years without implementing a single reward for the Open World, as they'd be busy giving the others what they've been missing the last 7 years. > > Heck even as far back as the Ascended Rings that were added into Fractals caused Open World players to ask (or rather beg) for them to be available in the Open World too. It's something as old as the game itself They're asking for it now but that doesn't mean people who play solely the other modes haven't asked for anything in the past nor that they don't occasionally make a thread or two every now and then wanting something. Players that play solely one game mode in this game have at one time or another requested items offers in other modes to be added to theirs. That's a fact. It's not really something I was expecting to really be disputed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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