Zagerus.8675 Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: > You do have a good point about profession skill rating. However, since we kept the ability for players to class swap prematch, we cannot use profession rating for matchmaking. People would 100% abuse it. (We do currently track profession rating, we just don't use it.) Not to stray away from the original topic but, is there any way that we can take a gander at these professions ratings? Just for fun? I'm interested! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArenaNet Staff Ben Phongluangtham.1065 Posted January 16, 2020 ArenaNet Staff Share Posted January 16, 2020 > @"Zagerus.8675" said: > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: > > You do have a good point about profession skill rating. However, since we kept the ability for players to class swap prematch, we cannot use profession rating for matchmaking. People would 100% abuse it. (We do currently track profession rating, we just don't use it.) > Not to stray away from the original topic but, is there any way that we can take a gander at these professions ratings? Just for fun? I'm interested! There isn't right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkantos.7460 Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 I see that too often, ppl given up after first losing team fight or when 200 points behind ... i miss my old times where we get comebacks with 300 points behind ... ppl (kids) dont have the will power to fight or regrp after losing some fights also a problem is that ppl choose others in tournaments for their rank ... lol i switch between gold 3 and p3 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kunzaito.8169 Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 My concern with the matchmaker has always been less about any one game (which can go belly-up for any number of reasons) than the tendency for it to create matchups that result in long losing streaks and mostly blowouts. Often this is due to pairing you with/against the same players over and over (though maybe this has more to do with player pop than the mm itself). Coupled with the fact that most games seem to be blowouts, whether you win or lose it rarely provides much fun. Those two things together are what really frustrate me about PvP matches here = it's very disheartening to lose 10 times in a row, but it's not really much more fun to go 5-5 in games that are all decided by 200+ point margins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voltaicbore.8012 Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: > Allowing the players to fix team comp on their own is definitely a big reason pre-start class swapping is allowed. We're not going to change the matchmaker to try to figure out what classes are most effective. The matchmaker would have to change every time we do a major balance change. It's a moving target that we'd be creating permanent developer debt to try to address it in the matchmaker. Thanks for sticking with us on threads like this, Ben. I know a lot of us are pretty hard on you guys, but I for one deeply appreciate your willingness to stand in that muck to give us some insights now and then. Sadly, I don't think the tension between demands for the matchmaker to lock away player choice vs. insisting that players retain as much freedom of choice as possible is never going to go away. It's the same tension underlying one of our most persistent real-world political disagreements - regulation vs. de-regulation. IMO the only thing worse than a rigid metagame would be a rigid metagame enforced by the matchmaker, so to see that the dev position favors player choice is a good thing in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crepuscular.9047 Posted January 16, 2020 Author Share Posted January 16, 2020 > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: > > So looking up this match, it looks like the matchmaker did a pretty good job in this case! Thank you for investigating Ben, really appreciate your effort :) if from the backend it shows that the teams are rather balanced based on the rating points, i will acknowledge it. on paper 2 weavers and 1 fb would be a much superior team, but instead completely crushed; perhaps as others suggested, win-trading, or higher-tiered players just playing on their alt accounts, or something else but I will not throw any accusations to my fellow team members in that game, because I did see them trying to put up a fight, but still dropped like flies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crepuscular.9047 Posted January 16, 2020 Author Share Posted January 16, 2020 > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: > You do have a good point about profession skill rating. However, since we kept the ability for players to class swap prematch, we cannot use profession rating for matchmaking. People would 100% abuse it. (We do currently track profession rating, we just don't use it.) can we beta test that in unranked or off-season ranked? in regards to '100% abuse it', i mean, pvp matchmaker is kinda been abused already by allowing people to class swap because i've seen 3 necros, 3 mesmers, 3 rangers necros and mesmers are especially annoying because of the excessive minions and illusions they create Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: > > @"Zagerus.8675" said: > > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: > > > You do have a good point about profession skill rating. However, since we kept the ability for players to class swap prematch, we cannot use profession rating for matchmaking. People would 100% abuse it. (We do currently track profession rating, we just don't use it.) > > Not to stray away from the original topic but, is there any way that we can take a gander at these professions ratings? Just for fun? I'm interested! > > There isn't right now. [i require access to all developer knowledge!]( ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar.4257 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > It's great that u post a reply and all as I'm sure its appreciated but posting one match where matchmaking was decent is one thing posting the results of 50 and finding an average mean would be better no? Why would they bother? Even when players are shown that, actually, the matchup was very fair, they'll still come up with any excuse for why it wasn't fair. As we're exactly seeing in this thread. If its not the MMR then its duos. If its not that then its builds. If its not that then it must be match manipulators. No amount of data will make this playerbase go "well, I guess I just got out-played". sPvP is inherently very "snowbally" where a team with even a 1% advantage can totally dominate the map and win 500-50. Players mistakenly think this means that one side had a massive advantage, but they didn't. Its just the nature of snowball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheman.3589 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 The match was ridiculously one sided but I see no evidence that the match maker was besides the fact that we all have to deal with that there is no method of fixing roles for gw2 pvp like u can find in lol where everyone is locked into a role. From the anet investigation it looks like not. Single player in that match was in silver, so where are u getting silver/gold players on your team. Also not a single player in that match was platinum so how is the other team obviously stacked with play/legend players, unless they had a top 25 or w.e title which really doesn’t matter if they are in gold as who knows maybe they are playing a class where they are actually at a gold skill level on. Again I don’t see any proof that matchmaking was off as u just linked an average match that ended up being a one sided loss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/53443/new-scoreboard This is still one of my favorite threads. Having a better scoreboard could help make ratings more accurate as long as the categories ONLY take into account the methods that directly contribute to value/scoring. ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Edit: I just remembered... Ben actually read it in the past and said, "Did a quick look. TBH, it's unlikely we'll ever change that system again. We're just unlikely to take anything into consideration for skill rating other than wins/losses as people will start chasing stats rather than trying to win. Stuff like just trading caps/decaps over and over rather than trying to hold a point." _However_, chasing stats with my system is actually a good thing and would directly improve match quality. Furthermore, trading caps/decaps would result in extremely little value gain with my system, so anyone that does it would get penalized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teb.6980 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 > @"Arkantos.7460" said: > I see that too often, ppl given up after first losing team fight or when 200 points behind ... i miss my old times where we get comebacks with 300 points behind ... ppl (kids) dont have the will power to fight or regrp after losing some fights > > also a problem is that ppl choose others in tournaments for their rank ... lol i switch between gold 3 and p3 ... Wow, I can second what this dude just said: for example in LoL it's way more imbalanced when you're behind; there's literally no way to bring the game back. Last night me and my friends came back to the game with a few points against us, and it was cool, and intense... All I say is GW2 has the potential for one of the most (if not the most) balanced PvP everywhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenix.6198 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 > @"Marxx.5021" said: > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: > > I'm not saying our matchmaking is perfect by any means, but it generally does a pretty decent job of making sure both teams are balanced. > > No wonder matchmaking is so bad if you guys really think average mmr makes balanced teams. Honestly....this match seemed pretty fair 1 - ~1400 player on each team 2 ~ 1300 players on each team 2 ~ 1200 players on each team and about a ~200 rating gap between highest and lowest rated player pear team. this aint so bad, srsly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marxx.5021 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 > @"Zenix.6198" said: > > @"Marxx.5021" said: > > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: > > > I'm not saying our matchmaking is perfect by any means, but it generally does a pretty decent job of making sure both teams are balanced. > > > > No wonder matchmaking is so bad if you guys really think average mmr makes balanced teams. > > Honestly....this match seemed pretty fair > > 1 - ~1400 player on each team > 2 ~ 1300 players on each team > 2 ~ 1200 players on each team > > and about a ~200 rating gap between highest and lowest rated player pear team. > this aint so bad, srsly. > Its more about volatility of rating. When I take my own its a range between 1200 and1600 with a good amout of matches played. I think the conclusion that there are balanced teams just because 10 player with similiar rating are matched together is wrong. If a matchup with close ratings leeds to an one sited match you cant claim that matchmaking makes a decent job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluri.2653 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > It's great that u post a reply and all as I'm sure its appreciated but posting one match where matchmaking was decent is one thing posting the results of 50 and finding an average mean would be better no? > > Why would they bother? > > Even when players are shown that, actually, the matchup was very fair, they'll still come up with any excuse for why it wasn't fair. As we're exactly seeing in this thread. > > If its not the MMR then its duos. If its not that then its builds. If its not that then it must be match manipulators. > > No amount of data will make this playerbase go "well, I guess I just got out-played". > > sPvP is inherently very "snowbally" where a team with even a 1% advantage can totally dominate the map and win 500-50. Players mistakenly think this means that one side had a massive advantage, but they didn't. Its just the nature of snowball. > +1 i love how some people normally go "nice matchmaking" when you fight 5 considered good players, yet they are matched correctly due to what ratings they are currently on, the matchmaker will never take into account that "oh this is sindrener, even if hes 1500 he should be queued in 1800 ratings" People just don't understand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avatar.3568 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 > @"Marxx.5021" said: > > @"Zenix.6198" said: > > > @"Marxx.5021" said: > > > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: > > > > I'm not saying our matchmaking is perfect by any means, but it generally does a pretty decent job of making sure both teams are balanced. > > > > > > No wonder matchmaking is so bad if you guys really think average mmr makes balanced teams. > > > > Honestly....this match seemed pretty fair > > > > 1 - ~1400 player on each team > > 2 ~ 1300 players on each team > > 2 ~ 1200 players on each team > > > > and about a ~200 rating gap between highest and lowest rated player pear team. > > this aint so bad, srsly. > > > Its more about volatility of rating. When I take my own its a range between 1200 and1600 with a good amout of matches played. I think the conclusion that there are balanced teams just because 10 player with similiar rating are matched together is wrong. If a matchup with close ratings leeds to an one sited match you cant claim that matchmaking makes a decent job. The mmr is more accurate as more games have been played, last season my I had around 300 games and my rating was pretty consistent in a range of 150 points. But especially at season start the numbers can more "lie" when a player played 10-12 games, his mmr isn't really accurate at that's why you loose and get more points than after I think 30 games. So yeah it's not perfect, but I do not know a better system Maybe If a season goes a half or a complete year, we could have a much more accurate overall rating and better match experience. And giving the players the title rewards etc after every quarter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenix.6198 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 > @"Marxx.5021" said: > > @"Zenix.6198" said: > > > @"Marxx.5021" said: > > > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: > > > > I'm not saying our matchmaking is perfect by any means, but it generally does a pretty decent job of making sure both teams are balanced. > > > > > > No wonder matchmaking is so bad if you guys really think average mmr makes balanced teams. > > > > Honestly....this match seemed pretty fair > > > > 1 - ~1400 player on each team > > 2 ~ 1300 players on each team > > 2 ~ 1200 players on each team > > > > and about a ~200 rating gap between highest and lowest rated player pear team. > > this aint so bad, srsly. > > > If a matchup with close ratings leeds to an one sited match you cant claim that matchmaking makes a decent job. But to blame the matchmaking alone is also false. Class MUs and snowball-mechanics also play a detrimental role in match outcome. Matchmaking alone won't stop people from getting steam-rolled or being able to recover from a losing position more reliably....especially in the lower tiers. When you/your team consistently makes bad decisions (like solo pushing into an already lost teamfight straight from respawn), the matchmaker can hardly be blamed for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asuran.5469 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 With a complete flat line on red team, it indicates that they didn't try at all, if they ever even left the spawn. My dear community, here is your evidence of win trading & match throwing. This is some "Murderer gets caught red handed confessing the whole thing on a hidden camera" level documentation in this screen shot. Thank you, @"crepuscular.9047" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marxx.5021 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 > @"Zenix.6198" said: > > @"Marxx.5021" said: > > > @"Zenix.6198" said: > > > > @"Marxx.5021" said: > > > > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: > > > > > I'm not saying our matchmaking is perfect by any means, but it generally does a pretty decent job of making sure both teams are balanced. > > > > > > > > No wonder matchmaking is so bad if you guys really think average mmr makes balanced teams. > > > > > > Honestly....this match seemed pretty fair > > > > > > 1 - ~1400 player on each team > > > 2 ~ 1300 players on each team > > > 2 ~ 1200 players on each team > > > > > > and about a ~200 rating gap between highest and lowest rated player pear team. > > > this aint so bad, srsly. > > > > > If a matchup with close ratings leeds to an one sited match you cant claim that matchmaking makes a decent job. > > But to blame the matchmaking alone is also false. > Class MUs and snowball-mechanics also play a detrimental role in match outcome. > Matchmaking alone won't stop people from getting steam-rolled or being able to recover from a losing position more reliably....especially in the lower tiers. > When you/your team consistently makes bad decisions (like solo pushing into an already lost teamfight straight from respawn), the matchmaker can hardly be blamed for that. > I don't blame matchmaking for game mechanics but for not achieving what it should be made for: "Matchmaking is the process of organizing players in such a way as to encourage competitive and fun gameplay." One sited matchups are neither fun nor competitive. Class stacking, class switching (non meta to meta) and high ranked duos make matchups worse for a mayority of players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ysmir.4986 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 > @"Asuran.5469" said: > With a complete flat line on red team, it indicates that they didn't try at all, if they ever even left the spawn. > > My dear community, here is your evidence of win trading & match throwing. > > This is some "Murderer gets caught red handed confessing the whole thing on a hidden camera" level documentation in this screen shot. > > Thank you, @"crepuscular.9047" I doubt there was any match manipulation involved. From experience, match manipulation is a fairly minor phenomenon (contrary to what 95% people posting on the forum might be saying) which mainly has chance of happening in the upper upper bracket of a season ladder. Definitely not in a g2 game. This reeks of L2P issue. This might be a case of one smurf account carrying his whole team too, but that’s barely a smaller stretch than jumping to « match manipulation ». Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Vega Van Kain.9842 Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: > > So looking up this match, it looks like the matchmaker did a pretty good job in this case! > > No duo queues. > Thank you :) Even Anet admit that Duos in a 5 vs 5 game mode is a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorstienn.1642 Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 I think as Ben pointed out, the matchmaking theoretically made an even match. However, I think that there are always other factors involved. Was everyone on each team playing their "mains"? As it's still kinda early in the season, how many of those players are doing placements currently? And even what builds was everyone using (ie Meta vs experinantal/fun)? These are factors that can massively affect the outcome of a match, yetvare practically impossible for the matchmaker to take into account: except maybe the mains vs alts rating as Ben eluded too, though that would require the removal of class switching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crozame.4098 Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 > @"Zexanima.7851" said: > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: > > > @"crepuscular.9047" said: > > > seriously... waited 6+ minutes and you give us this kind of matchup? a group of silvers/golds vs plats/legends > > > > > > if there isnt enough plats and legend, change it to something like a 2v2 or 3v3 king of the hill style map like GW1's HoH where the top tier pvpers can duke it out among themselves over a single point > > > > > > even your own data says that the top tier players are capable of dishing out 10x the damage compared to the average players > > > > > >  > > > > > > > So looking up this match, it looks like the matchmaker did a pretty good job in this case! > > > > No duo queues. > > > > **Winning Team** > > Elementalist 1229 > > Thief 1365 > > Warrior 1298 > > Ranger 1297 > > Ranger 1411 > > Avg 1320 > > > > **Losing Team** > > Elementalist 1402 > > Elementalist 1276 > > Thief 1214 > > Guardian 1351 > > Ranger 1309 > > Avg 1310.4 > > > > Keep in mind that final score of a match isn't always indicative of good or bad matchmaking. There are a lot of factors that affect it outside of skill rating. Your team could have given up after the losing the first team fight. Sometimes teams just don't play up to their skill level. The opposing team could have been playing above their normal skill level. > > > > I'm not saying our matchmaking is perfect by any means, but it generally does a pretty decent job of making sure both teams are balanced. > > What about people sitting at the top of the leader boards with 90% win ratios? Is that not fishy to you? That kind of luck/unholy skill seems fishy to me. I would say you go to watch Sind's stream. Then you would know why. Besides that they are very highly skilled, I also think some psychology factors matter. When the other team notices that there are 2 god of pvp as their opponents, some might just give up easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaburro.4712 Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: > > @"crepuscular.9047" said: > > seriously... waited 6+ minutes and you give us this kind of matchup? a group of silvers/golds vs plats/legends > > > > if there isnt enough plats and legend, change it to something like a 2v2 or 3v3 king of the hill style map like GW1's HoH where the top tier pvpers can duke it out among themselves over a single point > > > > even your own data says that the top tier players are capable of dishing out 10x the damage compared to the average players > > > >  > > > > So looking up this match, it looks like the matchmaker did a pretty good job in this case! > > No duo queues. > > **Winning Team** > Elementalist 1229 > Thief 1365 > Warrior 1298 > Ranger 1297 > Ranger 1411 > Avg 1320 > > **Losing Team** > Elementalist 1402 > Elementalist 1276 > Thief 1214 > Guardian 1351 > Ranger 1309 > Avg 1310.4 > > Keep in mind that final score of a match isn't always indicative of good or bad matchmaking. There are a lot of factors that affect it outside of skill rating. Your team could have given up after the losing the first team fight. Sometimes teams just don't play up to their skill level. The opposing team could have been playing above their normal skill level. > > I'm not saying our matchmaking is perfect by any means, but it generally does a pretty decent job of making sure both teams are balanc> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: > > @"crepuscular.9047" said: > > seriously... waited 6+ minutes and you give us this kind of matchup? a group of silvers/golds vs plats/legends > > > > if there isnt enough plats and legend, change it to something like a 2v2 or 3v3 king of the hill style map like GW1's HoH where the top tier pvpers can duke it out among themselves over a single point > > > > even your own data says that the top tier players are capable of dishing out 10x the damage compared to the average players > > > >  > > > > So looking up this match, it looks like the matchmaker did a pretty good job in this case! > > No duo queues. > > **Winning Team** > Elementalist 1229 > Thief 1365 > Warrior 1298 > Ranger 1297 > Ranger 1411 > Avg 1320 > > **Losing Team** > Elementalist 1402 > Elementalist 1276 > Thief 1214 > Guardian 1351 > Ranger 1309 > Avg 1310.4 > > Keep in mind that final score of a match isn't always indicative of good or bad matchmaking. There are a lot of factors that affect it outside of skill rating. Your team could have given up after the losing the first team fight. Sometimes teams just don't play up to their skill level. The opposing team could have been playing above their normal skill level. > > I'm not saying our matchmaking is perfect by any means, but it generally does a pretty decent job of making sure both teams are balanced. I allways get amazed how you have all the data at hand when it is to call someone a liar but you suspend other people when data is not of interest. (and you know you did this before) Go get your data and tell me is the first time. (if you never did this I'll delete my account) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ugrakarma.9416 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 no suprise there long qeues means a weird match to come,, its happens duo a low pop at time u qeue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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