Pistol Whip Daredevil.. maybe the most non-interactive build in the game

[Chaith.8256]

Assume the class your playing can't instantly chase a thief back through his Infiltrator's Sword #2 placed on a ledge/behind an object.

 

There's no meaningful interaction... Survive a 2 minute onslaught of whiffed Pistol Whips and still never get an adequate window to counterattack a Daredevil playing it safe.

 

Suggestions:

- Increase Pistol Whip cost from 5 to 8 initiative, landing Pistol Whip stun refunds 3 initiative.

- Buff every other thief weapon. It's not fair or reasonable to request a playstyle be deleted, but for everyone's sanity, Pistol Whip should be the least rewarding option when compared with Dagger/Pistol, Sword/Dagger, or Staff specifically.

 

 

[Curennos.9307]

Seems like you have more of a problem w/Infiltrator's Strike/retreat than PW...and maybe Haste/agility sigil.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

I feel a lot of the problem comes with general game DPS creep, and obviously the sustain creep on Daredevil.

 

1. The higher DPS rises in-game, it indirectly also buffs CCs, soft and hard. 4 years ago, getting hit with a 2s knockdown when you had no stab or stun breaks wasn't THAT detrimental, but nowadays getting hit with a 2s knockdown with no stab or stun breaks = immediate downed state. My problem with the Pistol Whip build isn't necessarily 1v1s but rather when it is +ing against you in this DPS crept meta, and in that case the hard CC off the Pistol Whip has become way too powerful of a shut down mechanic. **It should be turned down to 1/4th daze in my opinion.**

2. Obviously all of the sustain buffs on Daredevil have bolstered the defensive Pistol Whip play. Here is what the skill actually does: _"You will Evade and cleave 4 times with a coefficient of 0.79 (Moving will cancel the skill). The evasion window lasts for ~1.25 seconds"_ **Either make it so moving does not cancel the skill, or lower that evade frame time to 1.00 seconds.** This way there is room to counter play the play style that Chaith referenced in his OP.

 

I believe one of those two suggestions would pretty much solve the problem. That or Chaith's suggestions would work. I don't care either way, just as long as something gets done about it. This is every bit as bad or worse, in terms of overly simplified play, as Impaling Lotus dodge builds.

[Dantheman.3589]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> I feel a lot of the problem comes with general game DPS creep, and obviously the sustain creep on Daredevil.

>

> 1. The higher DPS rises in-game, it indirectly also buffs CCs, soft and hard. 4 years ago, getting hit with a 2s knockdown when you had no stab or stun breaks wasn't THAT detrimental, but nowadays getting hit with a 2s knockdown with no stab or stun breaks = immediate downed state. My problem with the Pistol Whip build isn't necessarily 1v1s but rather when it is +ing against you in this DPS crept meta, and in that case the hard CC off the Pistol Whip has become way too powerful of a shut down mechanic. **It should be turned down to 1/4th daze in my opinion.**

> 2. Obviously all of the sustain buffs on Daredevil have bolstered the defensive Pistol Whip play. Here is what the skill actually does: _"You will Evade and cleave 4 times with a coefficient of 0.79 (Moving will cancel the skill). The evasion window lasts for ~1.25 seconds"_ **Either make it so moving does not cancel the skill, or lower that evade frame time to 1.00 seconds.** This way there is room to counter play the play style that Chaith referenced in his OP.

>

> I believe one of those two suggestions would pretty much solve the problem. That or Chaith's suggestions would work. I don't care either way, just as long as something gets done about it. This is every bit as bad or worse, in terms of overly simplified play, as Impaling Lotus dodge builds.

 

On topic of moving cancels the skill. Even if they fix that there’s a bug exactly like the staff 3 bug where if u jump at start it activates first part which is a stun, also if u exploit this bug u can keep moving whilst stunning.

Basically I’m saying moving doesn’t necessarily fully cancel and even if they change that there would be a new op bug to fix

[Tycura.1982]

Id take SP over staff. The evade frames are intuitive on PW if a bit bloated. Vulnerable before the stun and on the aftercast. Staff's evades frames don't make sense to me.

[Math.5123]

My favorite part is where it hits for 8k on two defensive traitlines.

[Dantheman.3589]

> @"Tycura.1982" said:

> Id take SP over staff. The evade frames are intuitive on PW if a bit bloated. Vulnerable before the stun and on the aftercast. Staff's evades frames don't make sense to me.

 

Staff evade frames on vault are just like pw vulnerable at start and end. I’d say staff is ezier to target becuz evades is shorter but I guess you are flying through the air. The evade on staff 3 is pretty instant which is intuitive since it removes cripple etc and you need to focus at the end. So I guess technicall staff has “more evades” but are ezier to target than pw, not gonna say which is more op rn though staff is probably the highest dps weapon and not bad on bunkers but as Trevor Boyer pointed out having hard CC is really strong in this meta and so is pw damage for an acro build with huge amounts of dodges and mobility

 

[Tycura.1982]

> @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > @"Tycura.1982" said:

> > Id take SP over staff. The evade frames are intuitive on PW if a bit bloated. Vulnerable before the stun and on the aftercast. Staff's evades frames don't make sense to me.

>

> Staff evade frames on vault are just like pw vulnerable at start and end. I’d say staff is ezier to target becuz evades is shorter but I guess you are flying through the air. The evade on staff 3 is pretty instant which is intuitive since it removes cripple etc and you need to focus at the end. So I guess technicall staff has “more evades” but are ezier to target than pw, not gonna say which is more op rn though staff is probably the highest dps weapon and not bad on bunkers but as Trevor Boyer pointed out having hard CC is really strong in this meta and so is pw damage for an acro build with huge amounts of dodges and mobility

>

 

In my experience I never seem to be able to hit a thief when they have landed and damaged me with vault. Typically I can hit them while they're flipping through the air which doesn't make sense so me. I main warrior so the PW matchup isn't that bad for me. I can dagger 3 before a stun, catch the aftercast with shield 4 or bulls charge and if I use FC after being stunned it always seems to catch the aftercast.

[Dantheman.3589]

> @"Tycura.1982" said:

> > @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > > @"Tycura.1982" said:

> > > Id take SP over staff. The evade frames are intuitive on PW if a bit bloated. Vulnerable before the stun and on the aftercast. Staff's evades frames don't make sense to me.

> >

> > Staff evade frames on vault are just like pw vulnerable at start and end. I’d say staff is ezier to target becuz evades is shorter but I guess you are flying through the air. The evade on staff 3 is pretty instant which is intuitive since it removes cripple etc and you need to focus at the end. So I guess technicall staff has “more evades” but are ezier to target than pw, not gonna say which is more op rn though staff is probably the highest dps weapon and not bad on bunkers but as Trevor Boyer pointed out having hard CC is really strong in this meta and so is pw damage for an acro build with huge amounts of dodges and mobility

> >

>

> In my experience I never seem to be able to hit a thief when they have landed and damaged me with vault. Typically I can hit them while they're flipping through the air which doesn't make sense so me. I main warrior so the PW matchup isn't that bad for me. I can dagger 3 before a stun, catch the aftercast with shield 4 or bulls charge and if I use FC after being stunned it always seems to catch the aftercast.

Staff is weird rn. U can play bunker and stall pretty much any 1v1 though it’s a little weak to pluses or you can play dps. The dps one is a little weird if you miss everything it’s useless but if you know how land everything it’s much of the time a winning match up into fire weaver, warrior and mesmer. In mesmers case it wins the 1v1 so bad it’s not funny, but anyways I can actually understand that complaint becuz all pw really does in many 1v1s is stall not win. The reason pw is actually considered “good at 1v1ing” doesn’t really have anything to do with it winning any 1v1 matchup, it’s actually because the meta for thief is usually a rotational thief where the team benefits enough off a stalled node as they don’t even need the thief to win that 1v1

 

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> Assume the class your playing can't instantly chase a thief back through his Infiltrator's Sword #2 placed on a ledge/behind an object.

>

> There's no meaningful interaction... Survive a 2 minute onslaught of whiffed Pistol Whips and still never get an adequate window to counterattack a Daredevil playing it safe.

>

> Suggestions:

> - Increase Pistol Whip cost from 5 to 8 initiative, landing Pistol Whip refunds 3 initiative.

> - Buff every other thief weapon. It's not fair or reasonable to request a playstyle be deleted, but for everyone's sanity, Pistol Whip should be the least rewarding option when compared with Dagger/Pistol, Sword/Dagger, or Staff specifically.

>

>

 

How are your suggestions supposed to solve the issue?

 

-You still can't chase the thief through infiltrator's return

-The stun is still there making the landing of PW as easy as ever

 

Increasing the ini does jack squat, because the thief will simply play more passively..maybe just maybe having a skill that applies CC and dmg while in defense mode..it's an absurd design....just maybe

[Stand The Wall.6987]

how about we make pw cost 15 ini, and if you land the last hit you kill everyone on the map. even allies.

[Tycura.1982]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> how about we make pw cost 15 ini, and if you land the last hit you kill everyone on the map. even allies.

 

Only if thief dies too

[Burnfall.9573]

--


 

>>**Look at the dates**<<

 

 

>>Sep 5, **2012**<<

 

 

>>Jan 10, **2020**<<

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dave.6819]

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> Assume the class your playing can't instantly chase a thief back through his Infiltrator's Sword #2 placed on a ledge/behind an object.

>

> There's no meaningful interaction... Survive a 2 minute onslaught of whiffed Pistol Whips and still never get an adequate window to counterattack a Daredevil playing it safe.

>

> Suggestions:

> - Increase Pistol Whip cost from 5 to 8 initiative, landing Pistol Whip refunds 3 initiative.

> - Buff every other thief weapon. It's not fair or reasonable to request a playstyle be deleted, but for everyone's sanity, Pistol Whip should be the least rewarding option when compared with Dagger/Pistol, Sword/Dagger, or Staff specifically.

>

>

 

That's what you get when u constantly nerf thief.. they find the most dull builds to somehow cope with nerfs. I say bring back D/P meta and every1 will be happy. Until D/P is back there won't be any fun or skill required build out there. Unless oldschool D/D or S/D but we all know oldschool D/D will never come back. I personally quited gw2 until they bring D/P back. Rifle/Staff/SP/SD just aint fun at all. I won't even mention condi. That's obvious what i think about it.

[apharma.3741]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> August 09, 2017 Fixed a bug that was causing this skill to show an incorrect number of hits when traited with Swindler's Equilibrium.

>

> August 08, 2017 Path of Fire pre-patch: **Increased the stun duration to 0.75 seconds.** Added an additional warning effect to Warmup. Reduced the number of flurry hits from 8 to 4, to match the animation. Flurry damage has been increased by 100% to compensate.

>

> February 23, 2016 Fixed a bug that caused this ability to display incorrect damage values in PvP.

> The initial strike of this ability has been combined between PvP and PvE (dealing the PvE damage values) and will no longer deal increased damage to crippled enemies.

>

> June 23, 2015 Specialization update: All skills categorized as dual-wield have received a 5% damage increase.

>

> April 15, 2014 **This skill has been split between PvP and PvE. It will now cost 6 initiative in PvP, while maintaining a 5 initiative cost in PvE.** Updated the skill facts to show the bonus damage from Combined Training. Added an evasion skill fact.

>

> December 10, 2013 Reduced the aftercast on the first half of this skill by .25 seconds.

>

> June 25, 2013 Decreased the time between the stun and the sword flurry.

>

> October 07, 2012 Reduced damage by 15%

>

> August 28, 2012 Game release: Pistol Whip has been added to the game.

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pistol_Whip

>

> I would encourage everyone that posted here to pay attention to the bolded parts and check if there may be a bug that's causing the PvE version to be used in PvP. Otherwise, yeah PoF, wotcha gonna do.

 

tfw

[Chaith.8256]

> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

>

> >>Jan 10, **2020**<<

 

Not sure what you're intending to show here.

 

Thief trading duels vs. Mesmer on staff, D/P, in skill dependent matchup.

 

Thief switched to Pistol Whip, in the last fight the Daredevil sat in close range, in sword, used his initiative on 13 pistol whips in a row, then overlayed a bunch of troll faces after he easily won.

 

?

 

 

 

[Chaith.8256]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > Assume the class your playing can't instantly chase a thief back through his Infiltrator's Sword #2 placed on a ledge/behind an object.

> >

> > There's no meaningful interaction... Survive a 2 minute onslaught of whiffed Pistol Whips and still never get an adequate window to counterattack a Daredevil playing it safe.

> >

> > Suggestions:

> > - Increase Pistol Whip cost from 5 to 8 initiative, landing Pistol Whip refunds 3 initiative.

> > - Buff every other thief weapon. It's not fair or reasonable to request a playstyle be deleted, but for everyone's sanity, Pistol Whip should be the least rewarding option when compared with Dagger/Pistol, Sword/Dagger, or Staff specifically.

> >

> >

>

> How are your suggestions supposed to solve the issue?

>

> -You still can't chase the thief through infiltrator's return

> -The stun is still there making the landing of PW as easy as ever

 

Can't change infiltrators return without negatively affecting sword/dagger, a more healthy and interactive spec.

 

Infiltrators Return is not a problem needing addressing, as you and @"Curennos.9307" believe.

 

My initiative suggestion would mean a gameplay objective for the person on the receiving end. Reward the person able to predict and avoid the pistol whip stuns with a shorter evading-onslaught.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

I don't think thief will ever see any redesigns of skills especially in the life stage of gw2 maybe the rogue class will be designed way differently in gw3 if there's one. Number adjustments and splits between game mode are more realistic probably.

[Chaith.8256]

> @"Dave.6819" said:

> > @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > Assume the class your playing can't instantly chase a thief back through his Infiltrator's Sword #2 placed on a ledge/behind an object.

> >

> > There's no meaningful interaction... Survive a 2 minute onslaught of whiffed Pistol Whips and still never get an adequate window to counterattack a Daredevil playing it safe.

> >

> > Suggestions:

> > - Increase Pistol Whip cost from 5 to 8 initiative, landing Pistol Whip refunds 3 initiative.

> > - Buff every other thief weapon. It's not fair or reasonable to request a playstyle be deleted, but for everyone's sanity, Pistol Whip should be the least rewarding option when compared with Dagger/Pistol, Sword/Dagger, or Staff specifically.

> >

> >

>

> That's what you get when u constantly nerf thief.. they find the most dull builds to somehow cope with nerfs. I say bring back D/P meta and every1 will be happy. Until D/P is back there won't be any fun or skill required build out there. Unless oldschool D/D or S/D but we all know oldschool D/D will never come back. I personally quited gw2 until they bring D/P back. Rifle/Staff/SP just aint fun at all. I won't even mention condi. That's obvious what i think about it.

 

We both share an opinion shared by a large amount of people. The Thief profession when it has at least 1 dagger in hand is a lot more deserving to be at the top. The condi, pistol whip, unload, these specs seem very crucial introduction specs but need drawbacks

[Burnfall.9573]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> I don't think thief will ever see any redesigns of skills especially in the life stage of gw2 maybe the rogue class will be designed way differently in gw3 if there's one. Number adjustments and splits between game mode are more realistic probably.

 

**+1**

 

I think the same way, I think its too late for any changes. Anet has given us players; Toxic gaming experience,; i doubt guild wars 3 will even succeed when it launches.

 

Having a game company intentionally ignoring their player base for 8 years whose only desire is to have a healthy competitive experience will only leave their player base with negative-unhealthy experiences.....resulting in severe consequential resential backlash for any potential future guild wars franchise.

 


 

Anet choice is to ignore us

[Curennos.9307]

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > > Assume the class your playing can't instantly chase a thief back through his Infiltrator's Sword #2 placed on a ledge/behind an object.

> > >

> > > There's no meaningful interaction... Survive a 2 minute onslaught of whiffed Pistol Whips and still never get an adequate window to counterattack a Daredevil playing it safe.

> > >

> > > Suggestions:

> > > - Increase Pistol Whip cost from 5 to 8 initiative, landing Pistol Whip refunds 3 initiative.

> > > - Buff every other thief weapon. It's not fair or reasonable to request a playstyle be deleted, but for everyone's sanity, Pistol Whip should be the least rewarding option when compared with Dagger/Pistol, Sword/Dagger, or Staff specifically.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > How are your suggestions supposed to solve the issue?

> >

> > -You still can't chase the thief through infiltrator's return

> > -The stun is still there making the landing of PW as easy as ever

>

> Can't change infiltrators return without negatively affecting sword/dagger, a more healthy and interactive spec.

>

> Infiltrators Return is not a problem needing addressing, as you and @"Curennos.9307" believe.

>

> My initiative suggestion would mean a gameplay objective for the person on the receiving end. Reward the person able to predict and avoid the pistol whip stuns with a shorter evading-onslaught.

 

Nerfs to Infil strike can easily be compensated for w/buffs to sword-dagger 4 and 5. Sword2 is def a problem that needs addressing, if only by tightening the range allowance.

[Crab Fear.1624]

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > > > Assume the class your playing can't instantly chase a thief back through his Infiltrator's Sword #2 placed on a ledge/behind an object.

> > > >

> > > > There's no meaningful interaction... Survive a 2 minute onslaught of whiffed Pistol Whips and still never get an adequate window to counterattack a Daredevil playing it safe.

> > > >

> > > > Suggestions:

> > > > - Increase Pistol Whip cost from 5 to 8 initiative, landing Pistol Whip refunds 3 initiative.

> > > > - Buff every other thief weapon. It's not fair or reasonable to request a playstyle be deleted, but for everyone's sanity, Pistol Whip should be the least rewarding option when compared with Dagger/Pistol, Sword/Dagger, or Staff specifically.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > How are your suggestions supposed to solve the issue?

> > >

> > > -You still can't chase the thief through infiltrator's return

> > > -The stun is still there making the landing of PW as easy as ever

> >

> > Can't change infiltrators return without negatively affecting sword/dagger, a more healthy and interactive spec.

> >

> > Infiltrators Return is not a problem needing addressing, as you and @"Curennos.9307" believe.

> >

> > My initiative suggestion would mean a gameplay objective for the person on the receiving end. Reward the person able to predict and avoid the pistol whip stuns with a shorter evading-onslaught.

>

> Nerfs to Infil strike can easily be compensated for w/buffs to sword-dagger 4 and 5. Sword2 is def a problem that needs addressing, if only by tightening the range allowance.

 

If you want some really salty tears, just make the teleport only work when they are in range lol.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > > @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > > > > Assume the class your playing can't instantly chase a thief back through his Infiltrator's Sword #2 placed on a ledge/behind an object.

> > > > >

> > > > > There's no meaningful interaction... Survive a 2 minute onslaught of whiffed Pistol Whips and still never get an adequate window to counterattack a Daredevil playing it safe.

> > > > >

> > > > > Suggestions:

> > > > > - Increase Pistol Whip cost from 5 to 8 initiative, landing Pistol Whip refunds 3 initiative.

> > > > > - Buff every other thief weapon. It's not fair or reasonable to request a playstyle be deleted, but for everyone's sanity, Pistol Whip should be the least rewarding option when compared with Dagger/Pistol, Sword/Dagger, or Staff specifically.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > How are your suggestions supposed to solve the issue?

> > > >

> > > > -You still can't chase the thief through infiltrator's return

> > > > -The stun is still there making the landing of PW as easy as ever

> > >

> > > Can't change infiltrators return without negatively affecting sword/dagger, a more healthy and interactive spec.

> > >

> > > Infiltrators Return is not a problem needing addressing, as you and @"Curennos.9307" believe.

> > >

> > > My initiative suggestion would mean a gameplay objective for the person on the receiving end. Reward the person able to predict and avoid the pistol whip stuns with a shorter evading-onslaught.

> >

> > Nerfs to Infil strike can easily be compensated for w/buffs to sword-dagger 4 and 5. Sword2 is def a problem that needs addressing, if only by tightening the range allowance.

>

> If you want some really salty tears, just make the teleport only work when they are in range lol.

 

Or return port only available if successful on first hit. If blocked u gotta find other means of escape

[aelska.4609]

Gotta agree, this skill does too much, I don't know what they had in mind when designing a stun-evade-dps skill.

[KrHome.1920]

> @"aelska.4609" said:

> Gotta agree, this skill does too much, I don't know what they had in mind when designing a stun-evade-dps skill.

Wrong question.

 

You should ask what they had in mind when they designed daredevil, added instant reflexes to acrobatics and buffed sword 2 to ridiculous levels.

 

Pistol whip is from a time when thief had 2 dodges, no auto-evasion trait and infiltrator strike had 600 range and immobilized for only 1 second.

 

And I wouldn't call a 0.75s duration a stun in terms of a lockdown. It's more of an interrupt and you can still move out of a good part of the damage.