Sinfullysweet.4517 Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > @"Sinfullysweet.4517" said: > > Personally, I prefer no downstate on myself. Just freaking kill me and get it over with so I can run back into the fight. Sitting there bleeding out and I am hollaring "DO IT. KILL ME. END MY TORMENT." > > > > My husband and son think there is something wrong with me when they hear it. :p > > You know...... > > That image and sound track (with a persons voice of my making) is going to play in my head every time I down someone now.... it’s gonna make me not wanna stomp someone lol! You beast!!! Now if I see that guild tag, I know I am just going to bleed out now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 > @"Sinfullysweet.4517" said: > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > @"Sinfullysweet.4517" said: > > > Personally, I prefer no downstate on myself. Just freaking kill me and get it over with so I can run back into the fight. Sitting there bleeding out and I am hollaring "DO IT. KILL ME. END MY TORMENT." > > > > > > My husband and son think there is something wrong with me when they hear it. :p > > > > You know...... > > > > That image and sound track (with a persons voice of my making) is going to play in my head every time I down someone now.... it’s gonna make me not wanna stomp someone lol! > > You beast!!! Now if I see that guild tag, I know I am just going to bleed out now! Its only a member of Meme...they actually have to down ya first which may take a while :p j/k Personally I enjoyed the no downstate event they had. (and no I dont run a 1 shot or gank build) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > @"Sinfullysweet.4517" said: > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > > @"Sinfullysweet.4517" said: > > > > Personally, I prefer no downstate on myself. Just freaking kill me and get it over with so I can run back into the fight. Sitting there bleeding out and I am hollaring "DO IT. KILL ME. END MY TORMENT." > > > > > > > > My husband and son think there is something wrong with me when they hear it. :p > > > > > > You know...... > > > > > > That image and sound track (with a persons voice of my making) is going to play in my head every time I down someone now.... it’s gonna make me not wanna stomp someone lol! > > > > You beast!!! Now if I see that guild tag, I know I am just going to bleed out now! > > Its only a member of Meme...they actually have to down ya first which may take a while :p > > j/k > > Personally I enjoyed the no downstate event they had. (and no I dont run a 1 shot or gank build) Now I get what she said..., I popped that guild name in here alone... I don’t have that tag lmao. (Might need to open it..) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TinkTinkPOOF.9201 Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 I love the excuses of "it's just bad players who can't manage their skills and want downstate removed".....After that person out played and downed 2 people in a 5vs1 but can't stomp fast enough because of how quick in combat resing can be, and can't DPS through the resing either or you have to face tank the bomb the other 3 people are putting on the downed. If you were the better player, you would not have gone down in the first place, why do you have to kill someone twice (downed and defeated) when they have greater numbers as an advantage already? This works in sPvP because of the forced even numbers, however in WvW it becomes a problem when most group fights are never even in numbers. Suggestion would be keeping downed state (though I rather full removal), however everyone gets the same HP when downed, no HP boost and no skills, no spam "F" to res while in combat, if your team wins, they can then get you up once OOC, just like defeated state is right now. > @"subversiontwo.7501" said: > > @"DragonSlayer.1087" said: > > Since ANET wont remove downstate from this game mode. Also the no downstate weekend received great responses. > If I'm not mistaken a bunch of pro-no-state players made polls several times over after the no-downstate week and they lost their own polls every time. > That is even with the majority of this forum seemingly being lower-tier solo players and puggers who lack friends, guilds and commanding experience. > Concluding that as a definition "great responses" is a Trumpism if I ever saw one. > > As someone who made one of those polls, I made it as negative to removing downstate as I could, as the polls done before people claimed bias of the person who made the poll. Even still, it was a 50/50 draw of keeping downstate or nerfing/removing it. The last poll someone else did had more options which were all some sort of nerf or removing, leaving downstate as it is only got 29% of the vote. Also, using degrading remarks in generalizing a group of people because you just don't agree with their view is not factual or constructive in anyway. "a Trumpism if I ever saw one". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 > @"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said: > I love the excuses of "it's just bad players who can't manage their skills and want downstate removed".....After that person out played and downed 2 people in a 5vs1 but can't stomp fast enough because of how quick in combat resing can be, and can't DPS through the resing either or you have to face tank the bomb the other 3 people are putting on the downed. If you were the better player, you would not have gone down in the first place, why do you have to kill someone twice (downed and defeated) when they have greater numbers as an advantage already? This works in sPvP because of the forced even numbers, however in WvW it becomes a problem when most group fights are never even in numbers. > > Suggestion would be keeping downed state (though I rather full removal), however everyone gets the same HP when downed, no HP boost and no skills, no spam "F" to res while in combat, if your team wins, they can then get you up once OOC, just like defeated state is right now. > > > @"subversiontwo.7501" said: > > > @"DragonSlayer.1087" said: > > > Since ANET wont remove downstate from this game mode. Also the no downstate weekend received great responses. > > If I'm not mistaken a bunch of pro-no-state players made polls several times over after the no-downstate week and they lost their own polls every time. > > That is even with the majority of this forum seemingly being lower-tier solo players and puggers who lack friends, guilds and commanding experience. > > Concluding that as a definition "great responses" is a Trumpism if I ever saw one. > > > > > > As someone who made one of those polls, I made it as negative to removing downstate as I could, as the polls done before people claimed bias of the person who made the poll. Even still, it was a 50/50 draw of keeping downstate or nerfing/removing it. The last poll someone else did had more options which were all some sort of nerf or removing, leaving downstate as it is only got 29% of the vote. > > Also, using degrading remarks in generalizing a group of people because you just don't agree with their view is not factual or constructive in anyway. "a Trumpism if I ever saw one". Exactly...makes sense in PvP due to even numbers but in WvW it can wildly differ, giving the bigger side that extra advantage outside having bigger numbers in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetoII.3782 Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 For me, downstate has always been a thorn. Especially when they removed quickness stomps so you HAD to just stand there, whole blob whacking you, while they outres your stomp. Warclaw sidelines a friendly but it's at least given us a way to occasionally kill someone in the boonball. But I'd still prefer warclaw and downstate both went away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piedplat.3597 Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 > @"Blockhead Magee.3092" said: > There are a lot of people who need the crutch of removing down state since they can't seem to figure out how to manage the fight until its conclusion. They want it cut shorter so they don't have to strategize. Man you stealth my works, know your game and play it has it suppose to be. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anduriell.6280 Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 Anet only need to give the downstate the same treatment of the defeated(fully dead). Make it so so when the player is in combat the action to ress is not available. It does keep the functionality of the downstate skills and traits, still need the downed player to actually do something a most downed skills won't fully ressucitate. Downed state is cool in PvE there is no place for it in a PvP game mode. Also balance those situations where you are fighting 1vX and you can't get your rewards because the other 2 enemies keep resssing. So if you are running and you get oneshot, because your friends are not in combat they can ress you. But in those cases where 3 pick a fight against 1 and that one is good enough to defeat somebody, that should guarantee the opportunity to earn the rewards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 Downstate favors outnumbering side and it should be removed outside of pve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > @"Justine.6351" said: > > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > > > We got mount stomps so current downstate is ok. > > > > > > > > In smallscale favors the bigger group, that still has someone mounted, waiting for downs to stomp. > > > > > > Why do you assume that it is only the bigger group with someone mounted? The mount stomp has been a boon for the smaller group. It lets them chip away at numbers faster and less need to sustain after an initial bomb so as not to have the downs rally off your own players who take more damage from bigger groups. > > > > because the bigger group is going to have "throw away" players that can just watch their server winning the fight and snipe downs with warclaw. Throw away characters also includes non-meta zerg players like soulbeast snipers and stuff you wouldn't normally expect to fight from a zerg comp. They have the numbers to include this type of stuff that can really mess on outnumbered players even if its a 1 to 1 trade. The outnumbered players need everyone they have, the bigger group does not, hence "throw away" players. > > That hasn't been my experience at all. When you say the outnumbered players "need everyone they have" as if only their class build is to be utilized, you're willingly ignoring the idea that the mount stomper can also be considered "needed". At the start of a fight everyone has their cooldowns and should be getting an initial set of downs which the mount stomper can then finish off quickly in order to even the numbers a bit. Obviously if the smaller group is getting one-pushed and not getting any enemy downs, that isn't because of mount stompers. > > BTW, the best troll move is mount stomping into the middle of two enemy zergs with downs to see who you snowball. Holy kitten, what kind of convoluted logic is that where the outnumbering side needs to use everyone "because they have skills off cds", while the outnumbered side can easly delegate some of their players to "mount stompers" as if the same rule somehow doesn't apply to the both sides? What are you even talking about here, this is just insane. If the optimal play is to have mount stompers, both sides need them and that's what should be considered. Why do you use one "logic" for one side and another for the other side? The facts are that outnumbering side can delegate more people to mount stomping (which actually shouldn't be needed) and/or have more people fighting "because skills off cooldowns". What you write doesn't make much sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waffler.1257 Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 Remove rally on kill Set max number of rezzers to 2 (there is already a max number, so this should be as easy as changing an integer somewhere in the code) Fully dead characters must respawn Delete mount stomp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > @"Justine.6351" said: > > > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > > > > We got mount stomps so current downstate is ok. > > > > > > > > > > In smallscale favors the bigger group, that still has someone mounted, waiting for downs to stomp. > > > > > > > > Why do you assume that it is only the bigger group with someone mounted? The mount stomp has been a boon for the smaller group. It lets them chip away at numbers faster and less need to sustain after an initial bomb so as not to have the downs rally off your own players who take more damage from bigger groups. > > > > > > because the bigger group is going to have "throw away" players that can just watch their server winning the fight and snipe downs with warclaw. Throw away characters also includes non-meta zerg players like soulbeast snipers and stuff you wouldn't normally expect to fight from a zerg comp. They have the numbers to include this type of stuff that can really mess on outnumbered players even if its a 1 to 1 trade. The outnumbered players need everyone they have, the bigger group does not, hence "throw away" players. > > > > That hasn't been my experience at all. When you say the outnumbered players "need everyone they have" as if only their class build is to be utilized, you're willingly ignoring the idea that the mount stomper can also be considered "needed". At the start of a fight everyone has their cooldowns and should be getting an initial set of downs which the mount stomper can then finish off quickly in order to even the numbers a bit. Obviously if the smaller group is getting one-pushed and not getting any enemy downs, that isn't because of mount stompers. > > > > BTW, the best troll move is mount stomping into the middle of two enemy zergs with downs to see who you snowball. > > Holy kitten, what kind of convoluted logic is that where the outnumbering side needs to use everyone "because they have skills off cds", while the outnumbered side can easly delegate some of their players to "mount stompers" as if the same rule somehow doesn't apply to the both sides? What are you even talking about here, this is just insane. > If the optimal play is to have mount stompers, both sides need them and that's what should be considered. Why do you use one "logic" for one side and another for the other side? The facts are that outnumbering side can delegate more people to mount stomping (which actually shouldn't be needed) and/or have more people fighting "because skills off cooldowns". What you write doesn't make much sense. Whoa, you've greatly misread something. I was responding to someone who implied that being on a mount means they aren't being used. I said nothing about the outnumbering side needing everyone nor supposedly why. My argument is that being on a mount isn't separate from the idea of being used or needed and that has nothing to do with whether the side is outnumbered or not. As you said, the optimal play is to have mount stompers on both sides, or as I said, he was "willingly ignoring the idea that the mount stomper can also be considered needed". If the smaller group is getting one-pushed and not generating enemy downs, that isn't because they have one or two guys stay on their mounts. LOL. It's because they're that outnumbered (or unskilled/uncoordinated). Adding in the one or two players reserved as mount stompers isn't going to make a difference. If the smaller group isn't getting one-pushed and is able to generate enemy downs, their mount stompers have the chance to even up the numbers. It isn't a guaranteed loss by being outnumbered, nor a guaranteed win by outnumbering and having more mount stompers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 > @"anduriell.6280" said: > Anet only need to give the downstate the same treatment of the defeated(fully dead). Make it so so when the player is in combat the action to ress is not available. > It does keep the functionality of the downstate skills and traits, still need the downed player to actually do something a most downed skills won't fully ressucitate. Downed state is cool in PvE there is no place for it in a PvP game mode. > > Also balance those situations where you are fighting 1vX and you can't get your rewards because the other 2 enemies keep resssing. > > So if you are running and you get oneshot, because your friends are not in combat they can ress you. But in those cases where 3 pick a fight against 1 and that one is good enough to defeat somebody, that should guarantee the opportunity to earn the rewards. It also invalidates the entire point of downstate, which is that players are supposed to assist each other and feel helpful. If you cant res in combat, you cant do shit and it *heavily* bias classes with skills that still affect/heal downed (such as firebrands, which of course need all the help they can get *the poor weak bastards*). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamikharzeeh.8016 Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 we totally don't need more than one thread about this topic. and i don't think we'll agree, no matter how many threads. downstate / combat is by far not the biggest problem in WvW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 > @"kamikharzeeh.8016" said: > we totally don't need more than one thread about this topic. and i don't think we'll agree, no matter how many threads. downstate / combat is by far not the biggest problem in WvW Agreed, the removal of spawn guards is far worse, we can no longer laugh at campers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchonWing.9480 Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 What if they just increased the downed penalty? You insta die if you go down 4 times; so make it 3 times and adjust accordingly (67% health on 1st rally, 33% on 2nd). I think you really deserve to die by the 3rd. More controversially, maybe remove rally on kill completely. The rally system just leads to toxic things. Also it's kinda dumb for am enemy to rally because they tagged a guard from the 3rd server along with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agriope.4523 Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 If you're not going to remove downstate then at the very least remove damaging skills in downstate. The fact that someone can do more damage to me in downstate than they could when they were alive is, and always has been, ludicrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lan Deathrider.5910 Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 No downstate. Remove Mount stomp, make Maul dismount other players and apply its damage to the dismounted player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > > @"Justine.6351" said: > > > > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > > > > > We got mount stomps so current downstate is ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > In smallscale favors the bigger group, that still has someone mounted, waiting for downs to stomp. > > > > > > > > > > Why do you assume that it is only the bigger group with someone mounted? The mount stomp has been a boon for the smaller group. It lets them chip away at numbers faster and less need to sustain after an initial bomb so as not to have the downs rally off your own players who take more damage from bigger groups. > > > > > > > > because the bigger group is going to have "throw away" players that can just watch their server winning the fight and snipe downs with warclaw. Throw away characters also includes non-meta zerg players like soulbeast snipers and stuff you wouldn't normally expect to fight from a zerg comp. They have the numbers to include this type of stuff that can really mess on outnumbered players even if its a 1 to 1 trade. The outnumbered players need everyone they have, the bigger group does not, hence "throw away" players. > > > > > > That hasn't been my experience at all. When you say the outnumbered players "need everyone they have" as if only their class build is to be utilized, you're willingly ignoring the idea that the mount stomper can also be considered "needed". At the start of a fight everyone has their cooldowns and should be getting an initial set of downs which the mount stomper can then finish off quickly in order to even the numbers a bit. Obviously if the smaller group is getting one-pushed and not getting any enemy downs, that isn't because of mount stompers. > > > > > > BTW, the best troll move is mount stomping into the middle of two enemy zergs with downs to see who you snowball. > > > > Holy kitten, what kind of convoluted logic is that where the outnumbering side needs to use everyone "because they have skills off cds", while the outnumbered side can easly delegate some of their players to "mount stompers" as if the same rule somehow doesn't apply to the both sides? What are you even talking about here, this is just insane. > > If the optimal play is to have mount stompers, both sides need them and that's what should be considered. Why do you use one "logic" for one side and another for the other side? The facts are that outnumbering side can delegate more people to mount stomping (which actually shouldn't be needed) and/or have more people fighting "because skills off cooldowns". What you write doesn't make much sense. > If the smaller group is getting one-pushed and not generating enemy downs, that isn't because they have one or two guys stay on their mounts. LOL. It's because they're that outnumbered (or unskilled/uncoordinated). Adding in the one or two players reserved as mount stompers isn't going to make a difference. If the smaller group isn't getting one-pushed and is able to generate enemy downs, their mount stompers have the chance to even up the numbers. It isn't a guaranteed loss by being outnumbered, nor a guaranteed win by outnumbering and having more mount stompers. Their mount stompers can "even the numbers", sure, but probably only if the enemy's stompers are afk instead of doing what they are supposed to do. It is a guaranteed loss if we consider players with similar skill level, which is what should be considered while talking about anything being balanced or not. So yeah, I still don't see your point where mount stompers only work for one side, but not for the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedShark.9548 Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > We got mount stomps so current downstate is ok. > > > > In smallscale favors the bigger group, that still has someone mounted, waiting for downs to stomp. > > Why do you assume that it is only the bigger group with someone mounted? The mount stomp has been a boon for the smaller group. It lets them chip away at numbers faster and less need to sustain after an initial bomb so as not to have the downs rally off your own players who take more damage from bigger groups. You saw me specifically say in smallscale? There is a difference between big zerg trying to take a keep for example vs a smaller zerg defending it and chipping away numbers with mountstomp while constantly respawning and running back AND relatively small groups fighting against each other, because one group can have ppl on mounts waiting for stomps, while still have the same number of ppl fighting against the others. You see the difference and why i specified that? edit: now that i thought about it under the shower, the difference is actually if you fight open field, or inside an objective in the open field mount stomp will give the bigger group even more of an advantage, because of already mentioned reasons. and while defending an objective, like a keep, it will fervor the defending group, because of obvious reasons (for example, attackers most likely are held infight all the time and cant even mount up again) so in conclusion, in open field, it gives the bigger group, that already has THAT advantage, an even bigger one with mount stomp and while defending it gives the defending group additional advantages, ontop of the usual defenders advantage yea...remove mount pls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 > @"Sobx.1758" said: > So yeah, I still don't see your point where mount stompers only work for one side, but not for the other. Because that wasn't a point I was making. That was your point after misreading. Again: "I was responding to someone who implied that being on a mount means they aren't being used." Even earlier: "Why do you assume that it is only the bigger group with someone mounted?" And: "My argument is that being on a mount isn't separate from the idea of being used or needed and that has nothing to do with whether the side is outnumbered or not." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GDchiaScrub.3241 Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 Wrong way to go around this. What is with people nerfing things and instead of buffing things up? They need to make downstate more effective by increasing the damage on it's abilities, and increase support abilities so they can get on the parse for Arcdps after going down. Like. How come swiftness doesn't help downstate? This seems like an oversight.That way we can really figure out how swingy being in downstate really is. Running the downstate food, and traits will finally be the meta. D: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 > @"RedShark.9548" said: > so in conclusion, in open field, it gives the bigger group, that already has THAT advantage, an even bigger one with mount stomp and while defending it gives the defending group additional advantages, ontop of the usual defenders advantage > > yea...remove mount pls. As you've now concluded, the group it gives an advantage to is situational. That can be construed as the tactic is not an automatic win button for the bigger group. Both groups can use it to their advantage if they know what to do with it in different situations. My real issue with your earlier post was the idea that the smaller group isn't going to also have mount stompers. If a smaller group is running around without reserving someone as a mount stomper, then they're not utilizing all the tactics available to them and that's on them. As for removing mount stomping, Anet would really have to make changes to downstate before I'd support that. The 1.5 second invulnerability and increased health is definitely something that favors bigger groups. LOL. "We got mount stomps so current downstate is ok." Remove mount stomping and the current downstate is not ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > So yeah, I still don't see your point where mount stompers only work for one side, but not for the other. > > Because that wasn't a point I was making. That was your point after misreading. > > Again: "I was responding to someone who implied that being on a mount means they aren't being used." Even earlier: "Why do you assume that it is only the bigger group with someone mounted?" And: "My argument is that being on a mount isn't separate from the idea of being used or needed and that has nothing to do with whether the side is outnumbered or not." And all of that still assumes that the outnumbered side can go toe-to-toe while being outnumbered and having some people not taking part in the combat, because they're waiting on mounts to stomp (just like the other side can be doing). And yes, they are "throw away" players, because they're not actively fighting until they have a chance to go in for a stomp. How is this false? It's like you assume outnumbered side has the mount stomps, but outnumbering one somehow doesn't (because that's the only way it could be a "boon to the smaller group", like you've claimed). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > So yeah, I still don't see your point where mount stompers only work for one side, but not for the other. > > > > Because that wasn't a point I was making. That was your point after misreading. > > > > Again: "I was responding to someone who implied that being on a mount means they aren't being used." Even earlier: "Why do you assume that it is only the bigger group with someone mounted?" And: "My argument is that being on a mount isn't separate from the idea of being used or needed and that has nothing to do with whether the side is outnumbered or not." > > And all of that still assumes that the outnumbered side can go toe-to-toe while being outnumbered and having some people not taking part in the combat, because they're waiting on mounts to stomp (just like the other side can be doing). And yes, they are "throw away" players, because they're not actively fighting until they have a chance to go in for a stomp. How is this false? It's like you assume outnumbered side has the mount stomps, but outnumbering one somehow doesn't (because that's the only way it could be a "boon to the smaller group", like you've claimed). Right. Remember I said if the outnumbered side is getting one-pushed and not generating downs, that isn't because they've reserved one or two guys as mount stompers. They're either that outnumbered or unskilled/uncoordinated (can't go toe-to-toe). The mount stompers aren't going to solve that issue for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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